Road Trip Draft II QF: Jim Beam vs harms

Who will win based on all the players at their club career peak as mentioned?


  • Total voters
    10
  • Poll closed .

Moby

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Welcome to the Road Trip Draft II KO Stage.

Only the club career for the clubs mentioned against player names will be considered for evaluation. No national teams performances count whatsoever.






TEAM JIM BEAM

Tactics: 4-2-3-1 with Di Stefano operating between the lines

Strategy: Very aggressive and attacking. Outwork and outplay the opponent. Win the midfield battle, cutting the main supply for harms attack

Playing style: high-tempo, aggressive and fluid


The team will be run by one of the most special players the world has ever seen, also known as „Don Alfredo“ or the „Blond Arrow“ who had a unique ability to completely steal the game with his rhythm and dynamism.

This is the Don version from Spain who helped inspire Madrid to 8 Spanish league titles and 5 European Cups between 1953 and 1964 or the man who made Real Madrid the biggest force in world football.





Di Stefano Real Madrid stats: 396 games/307 goals or 0.78 goals per game and all that while dictating the game and contributing in both defensive and offensive phase of the game like no other player before or after him. If this was basketball you would easily call Di Stefano the best 2-way player the world has ever seen.

In the attacking phase Di Stefano will be helped by one of the greatest strikers of all time and 3 times Ballon d'Or winner Marco van Basten or the "Ultimate center-forward" flanked by Tom Finney and Luis Figo.
To insure that the midfield battle is won behind Di Stefano will operate two b2b machines with fantastic defensive ability in Roy Keane and Jean Tigana.

Behind them is a complementary pairing of ball-playing CB in Marius Trésor and one of greatest center back that ever played in Serie A in Pietro Vierchowod. (a tenacious and physical left-footed CB, who possessed great pace and was regarded as one of Italy's best ever defenders. He was also considered as one of the fastest defenders in the world and one of the toughest Serie A defenders of the 1980s and the 1990s).

Left-back position is occupied by K-H Schnellinger who won Footballer of the Year in Germany and was placed 3rd in Ballon d'Or playing as a left-back. The same year he was the best player and lead FC Koln to their 1st (of overall 2) Bundesliga titles. Right-back position is occupied by Phillip Lahm. No introduction needed.

Conclusion: harms has a better defensive shield on paper (well, in reality too). Cole has a very good record against Figo on the international stage while Baresi is Baresi.
Still, I definitely don't think he has enough power upfront and will struggle to hold Di Stefano to take control of the game and win it in the end.
Count Van Basten, Finney, and Figo and he will be under more pressure certainly.


TEAM HARMS

Jim Beam has a team full of amazing players that fit together very well. Honestly, I probably wouldn't vote here if I was a neutral, so keep in mind that every criticism that you'll read from that point is more of a talking point rather than a real flaw. I feel that my defense is better and I'd say that I have a slight edge in midfield, but he has a scary GOAT duo upfront with Di Stefano being a major influence all over the pitch, so it kinda evens things out.

Argentina's finest?

I know that goalkeepers don't mean jack shit in our drafts but in tight games they should be the first thing we look at. Football is a low-scoring game and one or two saves can be a difference between a win and a loss. In this case, the gulp in quality is quite obvious, even though it's great vs very good and not something more drastic. Since Carrizo and Roma were compatriots, they've been compared many times. Here are the results of IFFHS' Century Elections for South America:


Paco Gento vs Philipp Lahm

Again, I don't want to turn it into Philipp Lahm's character assassination, so keep in mind that this is a scenario where everything goes wrong — obviously lots of times he will be able to deal with it by other means like intercepting the ball early, for example. Still, there is a reason why Lahm, for all his intelligence, isn't rated alongside the likes of Cafu and Zanetti — he was never an athlete and he doesn't have any real recovery pace, if he's beaten or caught of position (I've been rewatching tons of highlights for this and it happened surprisingly often), he's done. Now, he's up against the ultimate speed merchant in Gento to take advantage of that — with Netzer, Falcão & co ready to send him on a run. Take a look at the way Gento played against Djalma Santos in 1962. You can see how wary Djalma is of his pace, how smart and cautious in his positioning... but if there's even an inch of free space, Gento just sprints forward and there's no stopping him. I'm using a clip from the World Cup as this is more of a theoretical issue — Gento was actually better for Madrid than for Spain, and did it without a great playmaker like Di Stefano or Suarez behind him, as both left on the bench for some weird reason.



Ashley Cole vs Luís Figo

You're more likely to see those two names together in a list of football's most controversial transfers, but they've also faced each other on the pitch — 4 times to be precise, and Figo failed to score or assist in all of those games. Those were all international games though, so they should be excluded, but I'd say that it's a reasonable claim that Cole will be a very tough opponent for the Portuguese. After all, Cashley is probably the best defensive left back of modern times who has an outstanding record even against the likes of Cristiano Ronaldo, Lionel Messi and Arjen Robben.

Günter Netzer

Even though in this game he'd be compared with Di Stefano (and there's only one possible outcome in such a comparison), I want to highlight Günter Netzer here. In the early 1970s, Gladbach were embroiled in a tit for tat rivalry with the giants of German football Bayern Munich. Between 1969 and 1977, the two dominated the Bundesliga, with Gladbach claiming five titles to Bayern’s four. Bayern also won three successive European Cups, but domestically they were inseparable. It was depicted as good versus evil, the demonic FC Hollywood against the loveable Foals, a nickname bestowed upon Gladbach due to the youthful profile of their squad.

The two star players of both clubs became synonymous with those ideas. Everything came naturally to Franz Beckenbauer, blessed with supreme talent and instinctive genius. As Hesse pointed out, though, his nickname, Der Kaiser, suggested “aloofness” and “conservatism”. Netzer was the total antithesis of Beckenbauer. His first biography was titled Rebel am Ball (Rebel on the Ball), but his middle-class background belies any such tales. Still, his playing style endeared him to the masses.

Günter Netzer would become the Footballer of the Year in Germany for 2 years in a row (something that neither Beckenbauer nor Müller were able to replicate) — in 1972 and 1973, right in the middle of the Golden Era of German football. His stats were incredible — right until he decided to move to Real Madrid, which caused quite a stir.

Do I need to mention that after Real Madrid signed him as an answer to Barcelona signing Johan Cruyff, they've won 2 La Ligas and 2 Copa Del Reys in 3 years that he had spent there?




Jairzinho

There's an obvious question regarding Jairzinho's role at Botafogo, since the Brazil team of the 1970 World Cup is known as "The Five 10s". Jairzinho started his career at the right wing and was seen as a successor of Garrincha (both at Botafogo and at Seleção). In the first years (from what I've gathered it looks like he became a regular around 1963 or 1964) he either played on the right wing when Garrincha wasn't on the pitch or played as a right-sided striker in 4-2-4 with Garrincha on the wing, going wide when Mané cut inside. After Garrincha left he got the right wing for himself, but after 1966 his role at the team became more and more important. At the peak of his powers, wearing a №10 shirt, he played as a free-roaming forward that spent a lot of time on the wings (more often on the right, but he also appeared on the left from time to time), a role that very much resembled his role for the Seleção. The only difference was that he saw more of the ball. It's worth noticing that Gérson, another one of those "Five 10s", came to Botafogo in 1963 and played the role of their main playmaker.

And, of course, I've made a video about Jairzinho's career at Botafogo:
 

Moby

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On first look it feels like Harms midfield needs an anchor to release Neeskens and Falcao, especially against a force like Di Stefano. His CM duo has good work rate but they will also face a lot of pressure from Keane and Tigana and if you put Di Stefano in the mix, it creates a huge mountain to climb without sacrificing their forward play, something that looks like the end result here.

With Van Basten occupying the CBs, it won't be easy for Baresi to make a huge contribution in midfield. All in all it seems Di Stefano isn't being picked clearly here which isn't likely to end well.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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On first look it feels like Harms midfield needs an anchor to release Neeskens and Falcao, especially against a force like Di Stefano. His CM duo has good work rate but they will also face a lot of pressure from Keane and Tigana and if you put Di Stefano in the mix, it creates a huge mountain to climb without sacrificing their forward play, something that looks like the end result here.
I am still surprised as to why he didn't go for Charlton after Neeskens. Adds that extra defensive work rate which could probably bypass the need for an anchor
 

harms

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Stam is on van Basten in a Kohler-esque role, so Baresi’s main focus will be on Di Stefano. He never faced anyone like Neeskens, for example - while I rate him as the best player on the pitch, the disorganized nature of the 50s football played well into his hands.

I obviously thought of playing Gonçalves instead of Netzer, but thought that it would be boring and unfair to Baresi, who is well up to the task.
 

harms

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It’s based on those games that I’ve watched for Tigana (so a small sample), but I have to say that what I’ve seen from Tresor in his club was seriously unimpressive - cultivating in their loss to Lokomotive when he was responsible for all three goals iirc.

Smooth on the ball, but he had to rely on his outstanding physique too much instead of on his reading of the game - a bit like young Rio.

It’s harsh to blame Finney for this, but with the rules of the draft in tact it’s tempting to compare him to Gento. Finney, hadn’t won literally anything in his career - it certainly has to affect his assessment. Overall I’d say that they’re about the same level and I’d probably choose Finney if forced to, but not here. He also performed for his club best in 2 roles - as a right winger at his peak and as a deep-lying striker later in his career. The role on the left was his usual role for England, not for Preston - thanks to the less versatile Matthews.
 

Moby

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Stam is on van Basten in a Kohler-esque role, so Baresi’s main focus will be on Di Stefano.
I've never really bought this and have no idea why something so absolutely contrary to any real match that has ever played comes in so frequently in these threads? In no situation whatsoever you are going to leave Van Basten 1v1 vs Stam (or any defender ever) without a covering defender and not expect to be buried within the first half hour of the game. To say this is unrealistic is to put it very, very mildly.

If you are sending Baresi off to midfield looking for Di Stefano, anything other than a cross from out wide will result with van Basten 1v1 with the keeper. Not sure you really want that?

It is even more frustrating when a team has 2 up front and it is conveniently said that 2 CBs will take care of 2 strikers, without any cover from midfield as if have a 2v2 all game wouldn't result in a bloodbath. Sorry but this has always been a massive pet peeve of mine and it makes no sense.

Coming back to this game, like I said earlier there's little to no attention Baresi can realistically pay to Di Stefano when they have the ball and leave van Basten all alone to Stam. He'll absolutely have to cover for him (even in the air we are talking about MvB who can easily beat Stam for a header or knock it down into his path, and if Baresi is awol into midfield tracking Di Stefano then that's a certain goal, how can you think that's anything near a safety net against a GOAT #9!). And that leaves a lot of room for Di Stefano to shuttle between the lines and take his shots/link up with MvB/spray passes out wide etc. With him in that kind of a dominating role, it's tough to see past a win for them.
 

harms

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Yeah, I’m not going to explain the way 2 center backs with 2 defensive fullbacks and a good hardworking midfield duo ahead of them can defend against a 4-4-2/4-2-3-1.

It is even more frustrating when a team has 2 up front and it is conveniently said that 2 CBs will take care of 2 strikers, without any cover from midfield
Yeah, right.
 

Moby

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Yeah, right.
That isn't about your match up. :lol:

Yeah, I’m not going to explain the way 2 center backs with 2 defensive fullbacks and a good hardworking midfield duo ahead of them can defend against a 4-4-2/4-2-3-1.
Your statement was 'Baresi will be tracking Di Stefano into midfield while Stam man marks Van Basten'
  1. How exactly are defensive fullbacks going to help out there given both have their own marking jobs against those wingers?
  2. For the CMs, they will be pressured by Keane and Tigana as I mentioned earlier. And their job is tougher with the added versatility of Di Stefano occupying various midfield positions.
  3. Has Baresi in a similar formation with a standard back four - fullbacks and not auxillary CBs - played similar role where he left a CF completely to his partner and spent most of the game off the ball in midfield marking opposition #10?
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Voting for @Moby as of now with Di Stefano the match winner IMO although I do agree with harms on Tresor (I mentioned the same in first game as well) and Finney (who from testimonies does seem to have played everywhere for Preston but his best did come from right wing and SS roles).

lol
 

harms

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I don’t see anything about midfield. He’s going to control the zone in and in front of the box, as he does better than anyone else and will be mainly focused on Di Stefano and not Van Basten. In your interpretation Baresi is stuck on a weird man-marking mission.

My team is very compact and Neeskens provides more dynamism and, perhaps, even more ball-winning ability than Gonçalves, while Falcão provides the playmaking.
 

Moby

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I don’t see anything about midfield. He’s going to control the zone in and in front of the box, as he does better than anyone else and will be mainly focused on Di Stefano and not Van Basten. In your interpretation Baresi is stuck on a weird man-marking mission.
Not really man marking, but with the lack of an anchor in midfield, and your CMs having the responsibility of containing Keane and Tigana when they have the ball, there is definitely a gap between the lines there which is exactly what Di Stefano would be looking to exploit. If you are saying Baresi would be focusing on him or playing in front of the box, all of that is the same issue what I alluded to earlier, where Stam will get isolated by van Basten and that is something that would never happen in an actual match where you leave a stopper 1v1 with a CF with no one covering behind him. In short, if Baresi pushes forward to cut off Di Stefano's supply to the forward line, it opens up massive spaces in and around the box where a pass slipped to MvB would have him through on goal. If Baresi stays behind to cover, then that leaves a lot of space in the hold for Di Stefano to run the game from. Either ways, you need another man in there to cover all the bases.
 

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Notwithstanding Netzer's obvious quality, I'm probably the only one who wasn't completely sold on his tandem with Falcao being more than the sum of its parts. While I can see them bouncing off each other well, they could jostle for some playmaking primacy in the deeper areas of midfield. No concerns about Falcao in that respect as he combined brilliantly with so many flair players, but Netzer's slightly more individual and vertical game might see Falcao operate with his handbrake on, to some degree. Going forward though, can see him relishing the opportunity to spray early balls into Gento's channel.

@Moby - I suppose if Di Stefano is free-ish, then the same applies to Netzer?
 

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Ok, hope that everyone has deeply implemented picture of Baresi at halfway line tracking Di Stefano.

@Moby - I suppose if Di Stefano is free-ish, then the same applies to Netzer?
Good call to play Netzer btw.
Pretty much. Playing Goncalves would be a defensive move and someone to track Di Stefano more closely. Harms would definitely be even tougher to break, but he wouldn't have enough power up front imo. Playing Netzer is something to worry my midfield and defence too. I still think (naturally) because of the gap in players quality and Di Stefano uniqueness he has a lot more in his locker to decide the match and be more influential. But, I like the choice of Netzer from the begining.

As for Tresor. There is now a common theme he wasn't that impressive in French league and that even his team's defensive records are not so good. Ajaccio record with Tresor 3 seasons before his move to Marseille.
-1969/70 - 51 goals conceded
-1970/71 - 52 goals conceded
-1971/72 - 53 goals conceded

Tresor wins French footballer of the year (no WC and France wasn't at Euro that year), gets a big move to Marseille and Ajaccio gets relegated instantly next season conceding 89 goals or 36 more than with Tresor. Here he also has Vierchowod as a pretty complementary pairing and if we talk about league performances he was immense in Serie A.

As for Finney, harms point is correct. He played usually and more on the right for Preston or as a deeper forward, but still he was one of, in not, the most complete forward in the 1960's.

The situation with Matthews in England team

Both men were right-wingers by choice but Finney's extraordinary versatility meant that Matthews could be awarded the position when the two played together for England. Finney was two-footed and could make goals and score from outside left, too, but his varied skills, sweet movement, quick wits and sheer football intelligence meant that he could function effectively in any of the other forward positions.
So, he definitely did have all the tools to play left on the highest level. I think that his lack of trophies shouldn't count for anything as I see no reason why that would in any way diminish his extraordinary ability and influence which he brings to the table. He could have moved for a record fee at the time to Italy and didn't want to. The fact that he did play mainly on the right in the league or as SS is something I leave on the voters to decide whether is influential.

Anyway, I like harms team. Not much to criticise (definitely don't agree with the notion about Lahm possibly being defensively suspect against Gento though).
Overall, I would say that I have more work-rate in my team which can help in such a close match-up. All of Di Stefano, Figo, Van Basten had fantastic work-rate and even Finney could put more than a decent shift. Include Keane and Tigana into the equation and it is pretty impressive in that regard. I get what harms says about Van Basten - Stam and plan to put the stop on Di Stefano that way. I still fancy the fact it will be Stam mostly with his eye on Van Basten.

Honestly, I probably wouldn't vote here if I was a neutral, so keep in mind that every criticism that you'll read from that point is more of a talking point rather than a real flaw.
I almost wrote the same thing. :lol:
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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As for Tresor. There is now a common theme he wasn't that impressive in French league and that even his team's defensive records are not so good. Ajaccio record with Tresor 3 seasons before his move to Marseille.
-1969/70 - 51 goals conceded
-1970/71 - 52 goals conceded
-1971/72 - 53 goals conceded

Tresor wins French footballer of the year (no WC and France wasn't at Euro that year), gets a big move to Marseille and Ajaccio gets relegated instantly next season conceding 89 goals or 36 more than with Tresor.
This is not a post in reply to your explanation but here is an interesting anecdote.

Ajaccio got relegated in 1969/70 as well but the league's size was increased from 18 to 20 teams the next season (1970/71), so they survived :p
 

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Notwithstanding Netzer's obvious quality, I'm probably the only one who wasn't completely sold on his tandem with Falcao being more than the sum of its parts. While I can see them bouncing off each other well, they could jostle for some playmaking primacy in the deeper areas of midfield. No concerns about Falcao in that respect as he combined brilliantly with so many flair players, but Netzer's slightly more individual and vertical game might see Falcao operate with his handbrake on, to some degree. Going forward though, can see him relishing the opportunity to spray early balls into Gento's channel.
I guess the closest real-life example to that scenario would be Netzer's cooperation with Beckenbauer? As far as I can tell, that worked well when it came to sharing duties in deeper midfield areas. Netzer took on a supporting role when Beckenbauer decided to run things, and in turn Beckenbauer left room for Netzer to play his game. Falcao is a CM of course, so the spacial & functional overlap is even larger, but I think in general Netzer can adapt for the sake of the team.

I also don't necessarily see it as a problem if one individual player doesn't play to his full potential (like Falcao perhaps does here), depending on the profiting player of course.
 

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In terms of defensive contribution I feel like there's a slight underrating of Neeskens going on. His unmatched energy would be crucial here. Don't forget that originally he started out as a defender.


And then there's Netzer/Falcão passing to Gento:
 

harms

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Here's what I was talking about when I pointed out Lahm's lack of pace and how it can be exploited.

Let's take Bale — one of the few players that, at his peak, used his pace as effectively as Gento did. This is his assist to Ronaldo in the CL.

They start pretty much at the same spot (neither are running at the moment, both are just starting their runs):



6 seconds later, Lahm is hopelessly lost:



And he's nowhere to be seen when Bale ends his run with a pass towards Cristiano:

 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Sigh, count my vote as a draw.

Di Stefano will still have a great game and will be the most likely match winner here but there are enough weaknesses on both sides and a draw seems more fair.
 

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Erm... Bayern is losing 0-2, 0-3 on aggregate then and that is throwing everything at Madrid in desperation. Also, it was 1st Pep season where Bayern were still vulnerable a lot.
Am sure you can find such moments for pretty much every modern player or fullback. Not so much for older ones, so we are judging them by story tales or training anecdotes.

Am really suprised you cought so much on Lahm. Yeah, he wasn't the fastest ever, but in terms of modern fullbacks (and past ones) one of the best in both phasis of the game.

Leave my little Lahmb alone. :wenger:

In terms of defensive contribution I feel like there's a slight underrating of Neeskens going on. His unmatched energy would be crucial here.
I agree he had fantastic defensive contribution, but not with unmatched energy. He has Di Stefano, Keane and Tigana on the other side here of all people.
 

harms

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Erm... Bayern is losing 0-2, 0-3 on aggregate then and that is throwing everything at Madrid in desperation. Also, it was 1st Pep season where Bayern were still vulnerable a lot.
Am sure you can find such moments for pretty much every modern player or fullback. Not so much for older ones, so we are judging them by story tales or training anecdotes.

Am really suprised you cought so much on Lahm. Yeah, he wasn't the fastest ever, but in terms of modern fullbacks (and past ones) one of the best in both phasis of the game.
I've watched tons of Bayern highlights over the years to convince myself that I can attack Lahm on this point. I wouldn't do it if Gento didn't have history with Djalma, for example — who was an even better defender and definitely a more athletic player, yet Gento simply flew past him. Lahm's intelligence will help him to intercept a lot of the danger, but he's not going to be able to stop Gento for 90 minutes.

The screenshots weren't even about the situation, it was simply about the recovery pace. The thing is, he really tried to catch Bale (even though he understandably gave up at some point near the end).
 

Jim Beam

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I've watched tons of Bayern highlights over the years to convince myself that I can attack Lahm on this point. I wouldn't do it if Gento didn't have history with Djalma, for example — who was an even better defender and definitely a more athletic player, yet Gento simply flew past him.
How he will stop Finney then?

The screenshots weren't even about the situation, it was simply about the recovery pace. The thing is, he really tried to catch Bale (even though he understandably gave up at some point near the end).
Judging by screenshots it wasn't even on him to track Bale. You can only blame him for giving up and not track back to prevent Ronaldo.
 

harms

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Judging by screenshots it wasn't even on him to track Bale. You can only blame him for giving up and not track back to prevent Ronaldo.
As I said, it's not as much about Lahm in that episode as it is about him trying his best to catch up (he did) and failing spectacularly. It's not something that is limited to that episode or that game, if he is somehow beaten in the first stage or caught up in attack he, unlike, say, Cafu or Zanetti or other monster, doesn't have an option of sprinting and winning the ball back. He was very good in the first stage, but he's not unbeatable of flawless — and with Netzer and Falcão's passing, I think that it's the most obvious route to the goal.

I don't like bashing Lahm, he's great :(
 

Jim Beam

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I don't like bashing Lahm, he's great :(
It's fine. :D

As I said, it's not as much about Lahm in that episode as it is about him trying his best to catch up (he did) and failing spectacularly. It's not something that is limited to that episode or that game, if he is somehow beaten in the first stage or caught up in attack he, unlike, say, Cafu or Zanetti or other monster, doesn't have an option of sprinting and winning the ball back. He was very good in the first stage, but he's not unbeatable of flawless — and with Netzer and Falcão's passing, I think that it's the most obvious route to the goal.
I don't think anyone is unbeatable. Leave Lahm alone with Gento and lot of space, it isn't great. Leave Djalma with Finney and it's the same story.

That's the reason why I said I consider overall work-rate so important here. In terms of team recovery and ability to press or come back from attacking phase my team is superior.
 

Jim Beam

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Yes

Can you two decide on how you want to resolve this?
Yes.

My average pick time seems better than harms at first, but there was a point at the start of the draft where I took a long time to make one pick and didn't added time. @Swarm did it in the end I think, but it wasn't me and am absolutely not sure if it was the right time on which I continued to add on. Since I can't guarantee that pick time is correct it can't be counted.

harms certainly has a better GK, so good luck to @harms going forward. Case closed.
 
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Swarm

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Yes.

My average pick time seems better than harms at first, but there was a point at the start of the draft where I took a long time to make one pick and didn't added time. @Swarm did it in the end I think, but it wasn't me and am absolutely not sure if it was the right time on which I continued to add on. Since I can't guarantee that pick time is correct it can't be counted.

harms certainly has a better GK, so good luck to @harms going forward. Case closed.
For anyone taking longer than the maximum of eight hours i simply added 480 minutes. Other than that I am quite sure the times I provided were correct but of course I don't know if everybody proceeded in this fashion.

I would add that unlike @harms Jim did not vote for himself so I think he convinced more independent voters of his team?
 

harms

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I would add that unlike @harms Jim did not vote for himself so I think he convinced more independent voters of his team?
GSTQ changed his vote to a draw, so it's 4:4. We've talked with Jim, so I guess that I'm going through.
 

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GSTQ changed his vote to a draw, so it's 4:4. We've talked with Jim, so I guess that I'm going through.
Oh sorry, hadn't read the thread and hence didn't vote in it. Only just responded to the tag. Ignore me :houllier:
 

Jim Beam

Gets aroused by men in low socks
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Yeah, we decided because of the whole thing (and mess with added time) it is fair that GK decides.

All sorted.