Ronaldo vs Ronaldo

Forevergiggs1

Full Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2019
Messages
3,451
Location
Barcelona
Supports
United
Every game?
I moved to Spain in 1999 and can say I watched almost every game R9 was involved in with Madrid and is why he makes my top 10 GOAT list. Obviously I've watched a lot of CR and I have to say even though his numbers speaks for themselves I never had the same excitement that I had for R9.

Of course CR is a fantastic player but he's a self made player (hats off to him) whereas R9 was one of the most natural players to ever play the game and for me this where the difference comes in. I'd have players like R9, Messi, Maradona, Pele, Best, Zidane and maybe even Ronaldinho over CR any day of the week. Every single one of those players brings excitement, CR included but for pure emotion CR (for me) falls short.

In all his United career I think the only time I had a WTF just happened moment was his goal against Porto and his free kicks against Portsmouth and Arsenal, whereas with the other mentioned players it was almost on a weekly basis.
 

antohan

gets aroused by tagline boobs
Joined
Apr 24, 2002
Messages
42,185
Location
Montevideo
A lot of people here failing to grasp just how phenomenal that young Ronaldo was.

This is a guy who was taken to a World Cup aged 17 and, as the Italian shutout materialised, had the Brazilian fans chanting his name as the solution.

Imagine that, peak Romario and Bebeto on the pitch and the fans banging on about this kid who played for Cruzeiro. How many 17 year olds would you gamble a World Cup final on?

Had the penalties gone a different way Parreira would forever be remembered as the guy who lost a World Cup fot lack of a goal... with Ronaldo on the bench.
 

RedRonaldo

Wishes to be oppressed.
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Messages
18,996
:lol::lol:

That’s enough of your gibberish.
I don’t think that’s much to laugh about. If you looking at R9 career as a whole, he is hardly guarantee top 10 in GOAT standing. In terms of peak he is among top 10, but peak alone doesn’t equal “greatness”, “greatness” always comes with achievements which are more down to career.
 

DRJosh

Full Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2018
Messages
2,946
Location
Melbourne, Australia
Supports
United minus the Glazers
I think comparisons between Ronaldo Nazario and Cristiano will be highly influenced by the age of the person making the comparison.

I remember when Ronaldo Nazario first started with Cruzeiro and PSV - you could already sense he was a magical all-rounded footballing talent. He wasn’t a diamond that needed to be unearthed/polished in the same vein Ronaldo was by Sir Alex. I felt Nazario was very much the complete footballer from the get go. Just my subjective opinion of course.
 

Isafim

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Sep 3, 2022
Messages
85
Ronaldo also played with Figo, Deco, Carvalho, Nuno Gomes etc and was still unable to register a single goal or assist in the KO rounds of the World Cup. By the way, here is a list of players who have scored more goals in the World Cup than Ronaldo despite playing in fewer tournaments and playing for small or unfancied nations:

Sandor Kocsis - Hungary

Grzegorz Lato - Poland

Teofilo Cubillas - Peru

Eusebio - Portugal (!)

All these guys were also able to score goals in the knockout rounds of the World Cup. So you have no argument.
Are you really comparing Figo, Deco, Carvalho, Nuno Gomes with Rivaldo, R10, Roberto Carlos, Cafú, etc...? I won't even comment on that part. In addition to the fact that Cristiano was very young in 2006, which was when played with Figo and Deco who were the protagonists of Portugal at the time.

Forgot to mention that Eusébio played in the best Portugal in history. The basis of a European Cup winning team with Benfica. And that Sandor Kocsis also played with the best Hungary in history with Puskas, Boszik and others in a revolutionary team that introduced WM to football and was called "Magic Magyars".

Finally a good argument :) In his 4.5 peak seasons, R9 was involved in 38%, 42% and 45% of his team's league goals. Cristiano for the most part is in this regions as well but also has a few freak seasons in which he is above 50%, the most outstanding in this context being 14/15.

Thing is, if you actually watch those goals, I don't think many would say that this is more impressive than what R9 produced for Barcelona. Madrid was extremely good at utilizing Ronaldo's strengths. in 14/15, he had already cut his dribbling almost completely (1.5 per game) and the team knew perfectly well what kind of passes he needed. He got so much service for those goals while R9's goals were far less "systemized". The difficulty of so many of the 34 goals for Barca is unreal. Difficult finishes, incredible first touches, incredible pace, great solo goals, etc.

Many people say that R9 is an unfinished promise because of his injuries but I also think it is a shame that we never saw him in his prime really settling in for a team.
At UCL Cristiano participated in more than 70% of Real Madrid's goals. Among other seasons in which he participated more than 50% or 60%.

I think you are being caught by affective memory. Most of R9's goals were on the counterattack. He used the pace on the back of the defense and dribbled the goalkeeper. Solo goals were a minority as well as Cristiano's. And Cristiano also had an absurd first touch, he also had a pace I would say even greater than that R9, he also made difficult finishes at a level even greater than R9 (volleys, back-heels, weak foot from 35+ yards from extremely difficult angles, apart from headed goals at which Cristiano was considerably better).

I don't know if you have R9's dribbling numbers in his prime. The only source I have is world cup numbers in sofascore. And he never got a 2.0 average it was always around 1.6 per game in 98, 02 and 06. While Cristiano was once the player with the most dribbling in a world cup (2006).
 

RedRonaldo

Wishes to be oppressed.
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Messages
18,996
Of course it is "at least partly" because of Cristiano. I mean, the guy scored 50 goals a season for a good amount of time. This still had much to do with the emergence of super teams. Madrid was a well drilled machine with Cristiano as the target player. It's not a coincidence that we have so many teams scoring so many goals these days, it is a development of the modern era which has multiple causes. One is definitely the allocation of wealth among clubs and the second most important probably the systemization of football with much more professional coaching, scouting and tactics. Cristiano was one of the most important players in this system so taking him out of it was always going to shock it for a while. That Cristiano in 17/18 wasn't that individual force anymore can also be seen when you take a look at Juve's goal records. 75, 77, 86 - CR7 joins - 70, 76, 77. And that's ignoring the introduction of VAR which lead to players scoring double digits of penalties, leading to a higher goal average for teams.
Well apparently Cristiano was about to past his peak heading slowing towards downhill when he was moving to Juventus at age 33-34, so it’s even harder to know. But anyway I just think it’s very hard to be proven correct or wrong from the looks of it, so that makes me question on how much degree of your argument would stand when comparing both players during their peaks, as their before/after consequence on their team during their peak, does point at more or less the same thing/end results.

Although you did mentioned in your other post R9 did scored better solo goals, you failed to notice Cristiano actually creates more more during his peak, which I feel sort of balance out.
 
Last edited:

RedRonaldo

Wishes to be oppressed.
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Messages
18,996
A lot of people here failing to grasp just how phenomenal that young Ronaldo was.

This is a guy who was taken to a World Cup aged 17 and, as the Italian shutout materialised, had the Brazilian fans chanting his name as the solution.

Imagine that, peak Romario and Bebeto on the pitch and the fans banging on about this kid who played for Cruzeiro. How many 17 year olds would you gamble a World Cup final on?

Had the penalties gone a different way Parreira would forever be remembered as the guy who lost a World Cup fot lack of a goal... with Ronaldo on the bench.
I am actually waiting for something beautiful coming out from your story, until finding out it’s all about 94 WC, a tournament where he didn’t even play a single minutes!
 

Zehner

Football Statistics Dork
Joined
Mar 29, 2018
Messages
8,140
Location
Germany
Supports
Bayer 04 Leverkusen
Well apparently Cristiano was about to past his peak heading slowing towards downhill when he was moving to Juventus at age 33-34, so it’s even harder to know. But anyway I just think it’s very hard to be proven correct or wrong from the looks of it, so that makes me question on how much degree of your argument would stand when comparing both players during their peaks, as their before/after consequence on their team during their peak, does point at more or less the same thing/end results.
I don't think you can prove anything with goal numbers. It is simply a stupid metric to compare two players. If you ask me, CR7 was best in his first few Madrid years but his scorers are even better in latter stages. But that had more to do with the team being geared towards getting the best out of him after years of optimization. Naturally Juve couldn't have figured that out immediately to the same degree and naturally Madrid needed to reinvent itself afterwards, too. So Cristiano looked a lesser player after switching clubs although he was basically the same. But for me, integration into a system is independent of the actual quality of the player.

And that's another thing that we never saw with R9. In his prime he never had the time to settle in anywhere. This optimization didn't happen because he played 1.5 seasons for one club at most during that time. He usually joined a club and hit the ground running because he could enforce so much danger by individual class. But the amount of service Cristiano got in the 14/15 season for example.. nah, definitely not.
 

cyberman

Full Member
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
37,331
I am actually waiting for something beautiful coming out from your story, until finding out it’s all about 94 WC, a tournament where he didn’t even play a single minutes!
That’s why this is all nonsense. A handful of fans in here may have seen a young Ronaldo but the absolute confidence to speak on his every move is staggering.
This was mid 90s. When we signed Pogba nobody on here had an accurate read on his style of play or consistency and that was 2016! Because nobody was watching Italian football even then. I still remember the fans on Juve forums laughing at the analysis on here. Not only could Utd fans watch mid 90s United but also PSV, La Liga and Serie A! It’s hard to do that now without streaming
 

Gehrman

Phallic connoisseur, unlike shamans
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
11,181
I think comparisons between Ronaldo Nazario and Cristiano will be highly influenced by the age of the person making the comparison.

I remember when Ronaldo Nazario first started with Cruzeiro and PSV - you could already sense he was a magical all-rounded footballing talent. He wasn’t a diamond that needed to be unearthed/polished in the same vein Ronaldo was by Sir Alex. I felt Nazario was very much the complete footballer from the get go. Just my subjective opinion of course.
Yeah the most complete young striker Ive ever seeen. It was kind of hard to see what he needed to improve on. He was already the finished product.
 

Zehner

Football Statistics Dork
Joined
Mar 29, 2018
Messages
8,140
Location
Germany
Supports
Bayer 04 Leverkusen
That’s why this is all nonsense. A handful of fans in here may have seen a young Ronaldo but the absolute confidence to speak on his every move is staggering.
This was mid 90s. When we signed Pogba nobody on here had an accurate read on his style of play or consistency and that was 2016! Because nobody was watching Italian football even then. I still remember the fans on Juve forums laughing at the analysis on here. Not only could Utd fans watch mid 90s United but also PSV, La Liga and Serie A! It’s hard to do that now without streaming
How many La Liga matches did you watch per week when Cristiano was in his prime if I may ask? :)

I mean, it surely is funny that one of the "EPL is the center of the universe" fans in here now brings up these kind of arguments.
 

antohan

gets aroused by tagline boobs
Joined
Apr 24, 2002
Messages
42,185
Location
Montevideo
I am actually waiting for something beautiful coming out from your story, until finding out it’s all about 94 WC, a tournament where he didn’t even play a single minutes!
He was Romario's backup and Brazil never lead by more than one goal during the knockouts so you can see why Parreira didn't rest that year's Ballon d'Or winner.

Still has two more World Cup winner's medals than you do.
 

Zehner

Football Statistics Dork
Joined
Mar 29, 2018
Messages
8,140
Location
Germany
Supports
Bayer 04 Leverkusen
Are you really comparing Figo, Deco, Carvalho, Nuno Gomes with Rivaldo, R10, Roberto Carlos, Cafú, etc...? I won't even comment on that part. In addition to the fact that Cristiano was very young in 2006, which was when played with Figo and Deco who were the protagonists of Portugal at the time.

Forgot to mention that Eusébio played in the best Portugal in history. The basis of a European Cup winning team with Benfica. And that Sandor Kocsis also played with the best Hungary in history with Puskas, Boszik and others in a revolutionary team that introduced WM to football and was called "Magic Magyars".



At UCL Cristiano participated in more than 70% of Real Madrid's goals. Among other seasons in which he participated more than 50% or 60%.

I think you are being caught by affective memory. Most of R9's goals were on the counterattack. He used the pace on the back of the defense and dribbled the goalkeeper. Solo goals were a minority as well as Cristiano's. And Cristiano also had an absurd first touch, he also had a pace I would say even greater than that R9, he also made difficult finishes at a level even greater than R9 (volleys, back-heels, weak foot from 35+ yards from extremely difficult angles, apart from headed goals at which Cristiano was considerably better).

I don't know if you have R9's dribbling numbers in his prime. The only source I have is world cup numbers in sofascore. And he never got a 2.0 average it was always around 1.6 per game in 98, 02 and 06. While Cristiano was once the player with the most dribbling in a world cup (2006).
I actually rewatched all his Barca goals prior to writing the post you quoted and also all of Cristiano's goals in 14/15 :) I think you underestimate how ridiculously good R9's goals that season were. CR7's was also great but as said much more systemized and less about individual goals. It's for me a display of perfect utilization on a collective level more so than all time great individual quality.

And no, in terms of pace it really isn't even close. R9's pace was out of this world. When you see some of his sprints, Cristiano stands no chance against this, even though he was very fast as well. I believe there's footage of the Brazilian league that clocked 30+ year old overweight R9 at >36 km/h. That's pretty much the top speed of all players right now not named Kylian Mbappe.
 

Isafim

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Sep 3, 2022
Messages
85
I actually rewatched all his Barca goals prior to writing the post you quoted and also all of Cristiano's goals in 14/15 :) I think you underestimate how ridiculously good R9's goals that season were. CR7's was also great but as said much more systemized and less about individual goals. It's for me a display of perfect utilization on a collective level more so than all time great individual quality.

And no, in terms of pace it really isn't even close. R9's pace was out of this world. When you see some of his sprints, Cristiano stands no chance against this, even though he was very fast as well. I believe there's footage of the Brazilian league that clocked 30+ year old overweight R9 at >36 km/h. That's pretty much the top speed of all players right now not named Kylian Mbappe.
Well, for me Cristiano's peak was between 2011 and 2014. And I don't think that the fact that Cristiano's goals are more "systemized" should weigh against him. Because the best players have always played for the best teams. See Pelé at Santos and Messi at Barcelona. Barcelona was a well-oiled machine that tried the same moves 20x per game. And you don't say that R9 at his peak was better than Messi or Pelé because their goals were more "systemized and less individual". The fact is that Cristiano didn't have to score so many individual goals because he doesn't need to, because the team was very good collectively. But when he needed it, he did it.

I don't know if you know but Cristiano at 33 broke the speed record in the history of the world cups in the game against Spain. If I'm not mistaken it hit 34km/h. Then in the game against Germany in the Euro 2021 he crossed the field in 10 seconds if I'm not mistaken to score the goal. And when he was younger he was even faster. So I don't know if R9 was that much faster than CR7 in his prime. On the contrary, I think the speed of both was very similar.
 

CrockedRain

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jul 30, 2021
Messages
47
Supports
Madrid
I actually rewatched all his Barca goals prior to writing the post you quoted and also all of Cristiano's goals in 14/15 :) I think you underestimate how ridiculously good R9's goals that season were. CR7's was also great but as said much more systemized and less about individual goals. It's for me a display of perfect utilization on a collective level more so than all time great individual quality.

And no, in terms of pace it really isn't even close. R9's pace was out of this world. When you see some of his sprints, Cristiano stands no chance against this, even though he was very fast as well. I believe there's footage of the Brazilian league that clocked 30+ year old overweight R9 at >36 km/h. That's pretty much the top speed of all players right now not named Kylian Mbappe.
14/15 was the season he transitioned into inside forward/second striker, the number of solo goals dropped noticeably. Try 07/08, 09/10, 11/12 and 13/14.
I am trying my best to be as fair as possible:

Best game - R9 (55/45, debatable, R9 most memorable game is against us, but already past his peak. He did scored a crazy solo goals for Barca)
Best season - Cristiano (60/40, 61 goals 23 assists in 54 games > 47 goals 12 assists in 49 games)

Peak - R9 (55/45, debatable, and partly down to nostalgia reason, in terms of subjective perception based on their best performance)
Longevity at top level - Cristiano (90/10, not even close)

Talent - R9 (60/40, young R9 is simply the best ever at his age, but young Cristiano is also an amazing talent which impress everyone)
Mentality - Cristiano (70/30)

Clutchness - Cristiano (70/30)
Consistency - Cristiano (80/20, not even close)

Excitement - R9 (60/40)
Effectiveness - Cristiano (60/40)

Seasonal stats - Cristiano (60/40)
Career stats - Cristiano (80/20, not even close)

Individual honours - Cristiano (70/30)
Team trophies - Cristiano (60/40, international trophies worth more credits, so its should get nearer than it appears)

Club career - Cristiano (90/10, not even close)
International career - R9 (70/30)

Skills/technique - R9 (60/40)
Physical/Athleticism - tie (50/50, now this is hard, R9 is slightly more explosive/faster acceleration, but Cristiano has slightly better athleticism)

Best attributes - R9 (60/40, R9 is so good at running/dribbling with the ball at full speed, just this alone makes him most unstoppable)
Overall attributes - Cristiano (60/40, Cristiano has more variety of strength - pace/tricks/dribbling/shooting/movement/heading/freekicks etc)

Playmaking - Cristiano (60/40, at their peak Cristiano creates far more chances than R9. Overall speaking Cristiano has far more assists too)
Goalscoring - Cristiano (60/40, Cristiano is one of best goalscorer in history. R9 isn't, but he is capable of scoring goals in his peak)

Feel free to agree or disagree.
You're being generous here to R9 tbh. CR7 has at least 10 games as good as R9 best ever game, Peak CR7 was better than R9 is almost every single "measurable" skill. And CR7 was more technical than R9 (Much better shooter, Much better freekick taker and much better passer/creator. R9 treating the ball more aesthetically doesn't give him the technical leap over the wide set of skills CR7 possessed in his peak).

Dribbling falls more along the line of ball control, touch, and is probably one of the main facets to judge a players technique alongside passing, and again ball control,

It can not be overrated, the very best players were all time great dribblers, Messi Pelé Maradona Cruyff, this is no coincidence.
CR7 isn't in the pantheons of dribblers with Messi/Cruyff/Maradona/Garrincha etc, But he was world class in his prime, among the best in the world and certainly one of the best of his generation. The undervaluation of CR7 dribbling ability against R9 is insane in this thread.
 

RedRonaldo

Wishes to be oppressed.
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Messages
18,996
He was Romario's backup and Brazil never lead by more than one goal during the knockouts so you can see why Parreira didn't rest that year's Ballon d'Or winner.

Still has two more World Cup winner's medals than you do.
To be fair, a medal where he didn't even feature a single minute isn't worth mentioning at all, even though he has quite a wonderful international career.
 

Zehner

Football Statistics Dork
Joined
Mar 29, 2018
Messages
8,140
Location
Germany
Supports
Bayer 04 Leverkusen
Well, for me Cristiano's peak was between 2011 and 2014. And I don't think that the fact that Cristiano's goals are more "systemized" should weigh against him. Because the best players have always played for the best teams. See Pelé at Santos and Messi at Barcelona. Barcelona was a well-oiled machine that tried the same moves 20x per game. And you don't say that R9 at his peak was better than Messi or Pelé because their goals were more "systemized and less individual". The fact is that Cristiano didn't have to score so many individual goals because he doesn't need to, because the team was very good collectively. But when he needed it, he did it.

I don't know if you know but Cristiano at 33 broke the speed record in the history of the world cups in the game against Spain. If I'm not mistaken it hit 34km/h. Then in the game against Germany in the Euro 2021 he crossed the field in 10 seconds if I'm not mistaken to score the goal. And when he was younger he was even faster. So I don't know if R9 was that much faster than CR7 in his prime. On the contrary, I think the speed of both was very similar.
It doesn't weigh against him but it is context. If R9 played in such a well organized team with systemized attacking patterns tailored towards his strengths and weaknesses, his output would have been much higher. That's why you can't just compare goal records in my opinion. And Cristiano couldn't just press a switch and shine individually when his team needed it. He had games in which his team needed him to do something special and he was completely anonymous - one of the biggest points of criticism regarding this time of his career.

Regarding pace: ;) I mean, look at thescene at 7:00 and 7:10 alone, that's almost ridiculous :lol:
 
Last edited:

RedRonaldo

Wishes to be oppressed.
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Messages
18,996
I don't think you can prove anything with goal numbers. It is simply a stupid metric to compare two players. If you ask me, CR7 was best in his first few Madrid years but his scorers are even better in latter stages. But that had more to do with the team being geared towards getting the best out of him after years of optimization. Naturally Juve couldn't have figured that out immediately to the same degree and naturally Madrid needed to reinvent itself afterwards, too. So Cristiano looked a lesser player after switching clubs although he was basically the same. But for me, integration into a system is independent of the actual quality of the player.

And that's another thing that we never saw with R9. In his prime he never had the time to settle in anywhere. This optimization didn't happen because he played 1.5 seasons for one club at most during that time. He usually joined a club and hit the ground running because he could enforce so much danger by individual class. But the amount of service Cristiano got in the 14/15 season for example.. nah, definitely not.
I get your point but Cristiano pre-14/15 isn't just about numbers, and I genuinely think his peak years is up there with any other footballers I've ever watched playing the game, performance-wsie. He was unreal, especially from 11-14. But I understand if some others would rate R9 higher, to me its just different style of preference, but IMO both with just similar dominating factors in their respective peak era.

However if you are making judgement on Ronaldo based on his 33-36 form at Juventus, it just isn't fair at all. This tends to fall into same fallacy most people would often make here - going back to compare with their nostalgia impressions on peak R9 vs their impression on more recent version of Cristiano during his more successful later years, without even awaring.
 
Last edited:

cafecillos

Full Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2014
Messages
1,437
Peak R9 is the most devastating player I've ever seen, and that includes prime Messi. I'm not objective as he's probably my favourite player ever together with Michael Laudrup and Iniesta, but his 96/97 was simply unforgettable.
 

adexkola

Doesn't understand sportswashing.
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
48,529
Location
The CL is a glorified FA Cup set to music
Supports
orderly disembarking on planes
It doesn't weigh against him but it is context. If R9 played in such a well organized team with systemized attacking patterns tailored towards his strengths and weaknesses, his output would have been much higher. That's why you can't just compare goal records in my opinion. And Cristiano couldn't just press a switch and shine individually when his team needed it. He had games in which his team needed him to do something special and he was completely anonymous - one of the biggest points of criticism regarding this time of his career.

Regarding pace: ;)
I am 100% certain the same applies for R9 as well. It's not like he had a 100% hit rate in desperate situations.

I don't think playing in a well organized team is a default lift; we've seen many attacking players struggle for Madrid after scoring bunch loads elsewhere. From the videos I've seen of R9, one constant is the large amount of space he had to run into. Defenses are more organized as well. How would he handle a parked bus? How would he dominate in a crowded box? I'm not saying he'd flop, but you seem to be certain he'd do much better today with these systemized attacking patterns (apparently in the 90s it was just give him the ball and vibes and Inshallah)... how would R7 do with all that space if he was transported back then?
 

Isafim

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Sep 3, 2022
Messages
85
It doesn't weigh against him but it is context. If R9 played in such a well organized team with systemized attacking patterns tailored towards his strengths and weaknesses, his output would have been much higher. That's why you can't just compare goal records in my opinion. And Cristiano couldn't just press a switch and shine individually when his team needed it. He had games in which his team needed him to do something special and he was completely anonymous - one of the biggest points of criticism regarding this time of his career.
Every great player has had games like this, bro, see Messi x Inter in 2010, Messi x Chelsea in 2012, Messi x Bayern in 2013, Messi x Germany 2014, Messi x Brasil in 2021, etc... The R9 itself has already disappeared in games against Real Madrid, against Milan, against Juve, against France in 1998, etc... That's not mean he "doesn't shine individually when his team needs it." Sometimes the player is not having a good day. It's absolutely normal. What we're comparing here is what they can do on a good day in their prime, 100% physically. Right?
 
Last edited:

Zehner

Football Statistics Dork
Joined
Mar 29, 2018
Messages
8,140
Location
Germany
Supports
Bayer 04 Leverkusen
I get your point but Cristiano pre-14/15 isn't just about numbers, and I genuinely think his peak years is up there with any other footballers I've ever watched playing the game, performance-wsie. He was unreal, especially from 11-14. But I understand if some others would rate R9 higher, to me its just different style of preference, but IMO both with just similar dominating factors in their respective peak era.

However if you are making judgement on Ronaldo based on his 33-36 form at Juventus, it just isn't fair at all. This tends to fall into same fallacy most people would often make here - going back to compare with their nostalgia impressions on peak R9 vs their impression on more recent version of Cristiano during his more successful later years, without even awaring.
What makes you think I judge based on the 33-36 form?

Cristianountil around 14 was great but still not Ronaldo level.


I am 100% certain the same applies for R9 as well. It's not like he had a 100% hit rate in desperate situations.

I don't think playing in a well organized team is a default lift; we've seen many attacking players struggle for Madrid after scoring bunch loads elsewhere. From the videos I've seen of R9, one constant is the large amount of space he had to run into. Defenses are more organized as well. How would he handle a parked bus? How would he dominate in a crowded box? I'm not saying he'd flop, but you seem to be certain he'd do much better today with these systemized attacking patterns (apparently in the 90s it was just give him the ball and vibes and Inshallah)... how would R7 do with all that space if he was transported back then?
Of course the same applies. It applies to all players to varying degrees.

And R9 played in the Serie A, the probably most defensive league in history. He didn't get much space there. I think the best idea how he would cope in the modern era is Mbappe since he is essentially a lite version of R9.
 

RedRonaldo

Wishes to be oppressed.
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Messages
18,996
What makes you think I judge based on the 33-36 form?

Cristianountil around 14 was great but still not Ronaldo level.
Because you keep using his Juventus years to prove a point? What is evidential in several of your previous posts here.
 

Righteous Steps

Full Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2016
Messages
2,348
14/15 was the season he transitioned into inside forward/second striker, the number of solo goals dropped noticeably. Try 07/08, 09/10, 11/12 and 13/14.


You're being generous here to R9 tbh. CR7 has at least 10 games as good as R9 best ever game, Peak CR7 was better than R9 is almost every single "measurable" skill. And CR7 was more technical than R9 (Much better shooter, Much better freekick taker and much better passer/creator. R9 treating the ball more aesthetically doesn't give him the technical leap over the wide set of skills CR7 possessed in his peak).



CR7 isn't in the pantheons of dribblers with Messi/Cruyff/Maradona/Garrincha etc, But he was world class in his prime, among the best in the world and certainly one of the best of his generation. The undervaluation of CR7 dribbling ability against R9 is insane in this thread.
It’s not he just wasn't close really in that regards R9 is in that pantheon as well as is Pele and Maradona.
 

RedRonaldo

Wishes to be oppressed.
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Messages
18,996
You're being generous here to R9 tbh. CR7 has at least 10 games as good as R9 best ever game, Peak CR7 was better than R9 is almost every single "measurable" skill. And CR7 was more technical than R9 (Much better shooter, Much better freekick taker and much better passer/creator. R9 treating the ball more aesthetically doesn't give him the technical leap over the wide set of skills CR7 possessed in his peak).
True, thats why I am saying its debatable. In fact both side of arguments having their credits on it, its just arguing from different perspective and all that, so I am just trying to be as open-minded as possible.

Personally I think peak Cristiano has more weapons on winning the games than peak R9 (better creativity, long shots, header, counter attack play, freekicks, movements, crossing, and better at scoring with left or right foot or at any angles etc). Whereas peak R9 is more unstoppable with his best weapon - running/dribbling with the ball at full speed.

And I get why some people rate would peak R9 higher too, even though I do not necessarily agree, because to them, running/dribbing with the ball in the most explosive manner, and scoring some beautiful solo goals is probably all that it matters in football, and this could be the very reason why they fall in love with football too. So in view of that, I can take it as their personal opinion, and respect that.
 
Last edited:

Zehner

Football Statistics Dork
Joined
Mar 29, 2018
Messages
8,140
Location
Germany
Supports
Bayer 04 Leverkusen
Every great player has had games like this, bro, see Messi x Inter in 2010, Messi x Chelsea in 2012, Messi x Bayern in 2013, Messi x Germany 2014, Messi x Brasil in 2021, etc... The R9 itself has already disappeared in games against Real Madrid, against Milan, against Juve, against France in 2018, etc... That's not mean he "doesn't shine individually when his team needs it." Sometimes the player is not having a good day. It's absolutely normal. What we're comparing here is what they can do on a good day in their prime, 100% physically. Right?
Pretty much, yes.

Because you keep using his Juventus years to prove a point? What is evidential in several of your previous posts here.
If you believe that you didn't understand my point. What I was referring to was that you can't say "CR7 scored 48 goals in 14/15, R9 was never as good" because CR7 profited massively from a cohesive team that had optimized how to get the most out of him over years of playing together so it is not a fair comparison. An example of his effect is that he got into less scoring positions when he moved from Madrid to Juve while Madrid also created less chances because a centerpiece of their system went missing. If you don't like Juventus, you could also take Cristiano's first season for Madrid that was less prolific scoring wise because the system wasn't as mature. And R9 didn't only play in a less systemized (at least in an attacking sense) era but also never was at club for more than two seasons in his prime.
 

Zehner

Football Statistics Dork
Joined
Mar 29, 2018
Messages
8,140
Location
Germany
Supports
Bayer 04 Leverkusen
You're being generous here to R9 tbh. CR7 has at least 10 games as good as R9 best ever game, Peak CR7 was better than R9 is almost every single "measurable" skill. And CR7 was more technical than R9 (Much better shooter, Much better freekick taker and much better passer/creator. R9 treating the ball more aesthetically doesn't give him the technical leap over the wide set of skills CR7 possessed in his peak).
Which games are that supposed to be?

And R9 was far more natural with a football at his feet. Definitely more technical and a much better passer/creator. The only thing debatable is the shooting technique. Saying that this definitely goes to CR7 is also wrong considering the atrocious conversion rate he has, regularly taking the most shots in all top leagues.
 

Ladron de redcafe

Full Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2020
Messages
3,682
CR7 isn't in the pantheons of dribblers with Messi/Cruyff/Maradona/Garrincha etc, But he was world class in his prime, among the best in the world and certainly one of the best of his generation. The undervaluation of CR7 dribbling ability against R9 is insane in this thread.
What would his prime be? 2012-2015?
Because since 2011-2012, he peaked at 2.2 dribbles per 90 mins.

So no, he wasn't even close to the best dribblers in his generation. You're overvaluing Ronaldo's dribbling. To use your adjective, it's "insane".
 

adexkola

Doesn't understand sportswashing.
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
48,529
Location
The CL is a glorified FA Cup set to music
Supports
orderly disembarking on planes
What would his prime be? 2012-2015?
Because since 2011-2012, he peaked at 2.2 dribbles per 90 mins.

So no, he wasn't even close to the best dribblers in his generation. You're overvaluing Ronaldo's dribbling. To use your adjective, it's "insane".
What are R9's stats? :D
 

RedRonaldo

Wishes to be oppressed.
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Messages
18,996
If you believe that you didn't understand my point. What I was referring to was that you can't say "CR7 scored 48 goals in 14/15, R9 was never as good" because CR7 profited massively from a cohesive team that had optimized how to get the most out of him over years of playing together so it is not a fair comparison. An example of his effect is that he got into less scoring positions when he moved from Madrid to Juve while Madrid also created less chances because a centerpiece of their system went missing. If you don't like Juventus, you could also take Cristiano's first season for Madrid that was less prolific scoring wise because the system wasn't as mature. And R9 didn't only play in a less systemized (at least in an attacking sense) era but also never was at club for more than two seasons in his prime.
Of course I do understand your point, but its still heavily based on 2 transitional periods:

1. His 14-15 seasons where he starts changing his game into more of a poacher and start to rely more on the service on his teammates, he was still a performance freak at that point though, but it was his last great performance season
2. His 18-19 seasons where he is already at 33-34 years of age, and start to heading towards downhills at different club with different structure. I get your point here on super team Real building around Cristiano, he has already well past his peak at that point so its harder to prove your point being correct or wrong here. I have also given you counter argument on Cristiano vs R9 impact on their teams before/after, which looks similar.

But the focus of our arguments should comparing their respective "performance peak" instead.

Performance peak of Cristiano: 10-14
style of play: all action attacker/wing forward
strength: pace, tricks, finishing, long shots, heading, freekicks, dribbling, counter attack play, movements, athleticism, creativity, crossing, scoring with either foot at different angles
goals: avg 50-60 goals + 12-15 assists per season
avg rating: ~8.40 (based on whoscored rating, you may disagree but that aligns with my impression of him during those period)

Performance peak of R9: 96-98
style of play: solo/explosive attacker/centre forward
strength: pace/acceleration, explosiveness, dribbling, finishing, ball control at tight space, one on one situation, scoring solo goals
goals: avg 34-47 goals + 4~9 assists per season (lets just say 47 goals + 9 assists, given its probably harder to score in Serie A back in his time)
avg rating: ~ 8.xx in middle range??? assumingly around the same as Cristiano as its already near to the highest end. (For better perspective, the current best performer in the world, Mbappe, is on avg 7.9 per season, based on his recent 2 seasons performances). But we can skip that one, its all opinions.


That's only my take. But I think those are fair description on both players during their peak, if we just move forward from their numbers difference, disregarding our bias. (but of course we are all arguing from our bias perspective here)
 
Last edited:

Zehner

Football Statistics Dork
Joined
Mar 29, 2018
Messages
8,140
Location
Germany
Supports
Bayer 04 Leverkusen
CR7 isn't in the pantheons of dribblers with Messi/Cruyff/Maradona/Garrincha etc, But he was world class in his prime, among the best in the world and certainly one of the best of his generation. The undervaluation of CR7 dribbling ability against R9 is insane in this thread.
Your opinion in this case is so far off that it can only mean that you haven't seen much of prime Ronaldo. He's not only better at dribbling than Cristiano, he's several orders of magnitude ahead of him and in contention for being the best dribbler in history - and not as an underdog. This is R9 for Inter:


Skill moves like Ronaldinho, pace like Mbappe, close control and shoulder drops like Messi and backheel passes like Cristiano. I doubt that anybody who watched this video completely can really claim that he doesn't belong in the best of all time discussion. You called the undervaluation of CR7 in comparison to R9 insane. Watch this video and you see what is really insane ;)
 

Zehner

Football Statistics Dork
Joined
Mar 29, 2018
Messages
8,140
Location
Germany
Supports
Bayer 04 Leverkusen
Of course I do understand your point, but its still heavily based on 2 transitional periods:

1. His 14-15 seasons where he starts changing his game into more of a poacher and start to rely more on the service on his teammates, he was still a performance freak at that point though, but it was his last great performance season
2. His 18-19 seasons where he is already at 33-34 years of age, and start to heading towards downhills at different club with different structure. I get your point here he has was already past his peak too.

But the focus of our arguments should comparing their respective "performance peak" instead.

Performance peak of Cristiano: 10-14
style of play: all action attacker/wing forward
strength: pace, tricks, finishing, long shots, heading, freekicks, dribbling, counter attack play, movements, athleticism, creativity, crossing
goals: avg 50-60 goals + 12-15 assists per season
avg rating: ~8.40 (based on whoscored rating, you may disagree but that aligns with my impression of him during those period)

Performance peak of R9: 96-98
style of play: solo/explosive attacker/centre forward
strength: pace/acceleration, explosiveness, dribbling, finishing, ball control at tight space, one on one situation, scoring solo goals
goals: avg 34-47 goals + 4~9 assists per season (lets just say 47 goals + 9 assists, given its probably harder to score in Serie A back in his time)
avg rating: ~ 8.xx in middle range??? assumingly around the same as Cristiano as its already near to the highest end. (For better perspective, the current best performer in the world, Mbappe, is on avg 7.9 per season, based on his recent 2 seasons performances). But we can skip that one, its all opinions.


That's only my take. But I think those are fair description on both players during their peak, if we just move forward from their numbers difference, disregarding our bias. (but of course we are all arguing from our bias perspective here)
I know you put much effort into stuff like this but in all honesty, I don't think there's much value in spread sheets like this. For me the only informational value it provides is that from the description you gave I derive that you seem to have a few misconceptions about R9. There's for instance no chance CR7 has skill moves over him since R9 was far better than him at that, same goes for creativity. And he was much more of a all action attacker than Cristiano. In Serie A games he at times barely entered the box and played much from midfield and winger positions. Or received the ball in the air up front, controlled him and directly went on devastating runs. He also scored 4 or 5 free kicks at Inter which is pretty good 1.5 seasons. I can only recommend watching the video I posted above since you seem to have a not so accurate image of him, probably shaped by his later years.
 

CrockedRain

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jul 30, 2021
Messages
47
Supports
Madrid
What would his prime be? 2012-2015?
Because since 2011-2012, he peaked at 2.2 dribbles per 90 mins.

So no, he wasn't even close to the best dribblers in his generation. You're overvaluing Ronaldo's dribbling. To use your adjective, it's "insane".
I'm talking about 2010-2014 CR7, Arguably 2008-2014 CR7. He averaged 2.5+ dribbles per 90m in La Liga+Champions League over the span of 7 years, This is more than any other player excluding Messi in the top 2 leagues over the same period of time (Messi attempted twice as much dribbles per 90m). Overall, CR7 was an insane threat in 1 against 1 situations, He was consistently guarded by 2 defenders at all time.


avg rating: ~8.40 (based on whoscored rating, you may disagree but that aligns with my impression of him during those period)
You're right actually, It's not speculative. CR7 averaged 8.4 or slightly above between his la liga debut til the last day of 2014. But we shouldn't take whoscored that seriously tbh

If you believe that you didn't understand my point. What I was referring to was that you can't say "CR7 scored 48 goals in 14/15, R9 was never as good" because CR7 profited massively from a cohesive team that had optimized how to get the most out of him over years of playing together so it is not a fair comparison. An example of his effect is that he got into less scoring positions when he moved from Madrid to Juve while Madrid also created less chances because a centerpiece of their system went missing. If you don't like Juventus, you could also take Cristiano's first season for Madrid that was less prolific scoring wise because the system wasn't as mature. And R9 didn't only play in a less systemized (at least in an attacking sense) era but also never was at club for more than two seasons in his prime.
CR7 in his debut season:
33G+10A in 35Apps=Goal contribution every 68 minutes
R9 (Only La Liga+European cup, for comparison measures because CR7 didn't play copa del ray):
39G+10A in 43Apps=Goal contribution every 78 minutes

CR7 played far deeper under Pellegrini, He was extremely involved in the build up. Played LW, RW and even, hear me out, CAM for a couple of games. R9 was a striker.

CR7 ranked 1# in europe in term of ball progressing that season, He was second only to Messi in dribbles completed (3.3 per 90m). And the most outstanding stats was on the creative side, 2.7 key passes per 90m, all from open play, This is *historical* number for a forward, For comparison, This figure is higher than any season in Messi career (!), Higher than Neymar in Barcelona, On par with absolute peak Ozil and only 10% lower than peak Kevin De Bruyne (19/20 season, Possibly the most prolific chance creating season of this generation in top 2 league).

He scored absurd amount of Solo goals too and his game was top tier entertainment:
youtube.com/watch?v=CsEECEyiGRE

R9 was never as complete as this, no even close in fact, and in this specific case, I don't think he even was a better dribbler.


Which games are that supposed to be?

And R9 was far more natural with a football at his feet. Definitely more technical and a much better passer/creator. The only thing debatable is the shooting technique. Saying that this definitely goes to CR7 is also wrong considering the atrocious conversion rate he has, regularly taking the most shots in all top leagues.
This is just pure nonsense sorry, R9 was never close to being an equal passer to CR7 let alone better, When it comes to shooting technique it's not debatable, CR7 has a case for being the best shooting technician ever, The amount of outrageous shots he provided between 2009-2014 is unbelieveable and frankly unheard of since at least Hagi. R9 was a good shooter but never was known as a long range threat nor a threat from unexpected positions.

Couple on top of my head:
VS Rome 2007
VS Arsenal 2009
VS Atletico 2019
VS Spain 2018
VS Barcelona 2011 copa del ray final (The fact it was almost one man performance against the best team of all time with next to zero ball time give it a serious boost)
VS Bayern 2017
VS Atletico 2017
VS Wolfsburg 2016
VS Sweden 2013
VS Netherland 2012

I can go on and on, And i excluded La Liga/Premier league performance against top 5 sides, Which CR7 has plenty 10/10s.
 
Last edited: