Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

[The United]

But in UA videos you can see how Russians operate too. As for defending that's what I meant of being smart and retreating to the next defensive line when it's not feesible to defend and lose men.
I dont know what you meant about making fun of anyone, war is never fun let alone making one on the internet. Attacking force always loses more men, we dont know whats the ratio and of course it costs UA deerly but its safe to say Russian tactics of just throwing men is absolute madness.

Exactly. You are looking at the UA videos, where we can see the stupidity of the Russian forces. But they are still gaining (minimal) ground in those same areas, no? So what does that tell you?

It was to point out the shortcomings of their tactics and how outdated, untrained, and underequipped they were. Of course, not in a hilarious comedy-show kind of way. Don't forget UA have their own offensives happening somewhere for months as well if we talk about attackers lose more. They did lose a lot on Kherson offensive as well and they will have to attack in the future. All "the attackers lose more men" will apply to UA at some point in some way as well.

Trying to invade the whole country was madness from the start. Nothing after that (except for using nukes) gets close to it.

 

[Real Name]

Exactly. You are looking at the UA videos, where we can see the stupidity of the Russian forces. But they are still gaining (minimal) ground in those same areas, no? So what does that tell you?

It tells me their invasion failed massively among other things. Losing ton of men and equipment for a few kilometres in a Bakhmut wasteland.

 

[The United]

It tells me their invasion failed massively among other things. Losing ton of men and equipment for a few kilometres in a Bakhmut wasteland.

Their invasion failed, but why do we care so much about it at this point? UA has to get all or most of their lands back, and this is where our concerns should be.

It's not about "Oh, look! The Russians fail, ha! while still occupying 10-15% of your country, and you can't get out of a wasteland."

 

[Real Name]

Their invasion failed, however, and who cares? UA has to get all or most of their lands back, and this is where our concerns should be.

It's not just "Oh, the Russians fail while still occupying 10-15% of your country, and you can't get out of a wasteland."

Yes of course. But main concern now is to stop the Russian advances and their bombardment.
Next step will be to get the territory back and it certainly wont happen quickly or easily.
I think we're thinking and saying the same things just in different manner.

 

[The United]

Yes of course. But main concern now is to stop the Russian advances and their bombardment.
Next step will be to get the territory back and it certainly wont happen quickly or easily.
I think we're thinking and saying the same things just in different manner.

Different manner for sure. I am just over "feel good' posts and videos while the reality in the battlefield is saying something else in the present. Just wanted to see from a different perspective, not from the Kremlin btw, more of how the UA forces are actually doing/reacting the situations in the field.

 

[Real Name]

Different manner for sure. I am just over "feel good' posts and videos while the reality in the battlefield is saying something else in the present. Just wanted to see from a different perspective, not from the Kremlin btw, more of how the UA forces are actually doing/reacting the situations in the field.

I've asked the similar questions previously here of how tactically smart is to hold on in Bakhmut and lose men in the long run and how much losses there are affecting their manpower on the whole. As I understand they tactically retreated in Bakhmut as well as in Soledad.
Its just lot of people want to hear and see good news, of course they have huge losses there so anything bad it happens to Russian invaders sounds and looks good.

 

[11101]

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The Leopards and Challengers will be equally if not more effective than the M1s and should arrive much sooner.

 

[stefan92]

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[RoyH1]

The Leopards and Challengers will be equally if not more effective than the M1s and should arrive much sooner.

The M1's are really just there to give Scholz and the German government political cover to release the Leopards. The Abrams tank is too different a beast to be used sustainably in a theater like Ukraine. Having a friggin turbine engine powering your MTB is a great solution if you're 'Murica and have a massive logistical apparatus to support it, but a diesel engined vehicle like the Leopard just makes more sense in Ukraine.

 

[Carolina Red]

Iraqi T72s were anything but modern.

Neither are the Russians.

Sorry, was out and wrote too fast. I meant not american tanks but from planes or others, probably not many tanks vs tanks battles, but i say that without knowing anything. Just why risk equipement nd lives, when you can do it easily in another way. But again based in nothing. Just an opinion. You might know much more what happened there

If you’re referring to the examples given, like 73 Easting, then yeah, those were legit tank vs tank battles like what was seen in WWII. One is actually called “the last great tank battle of the 20th Century”

 

[stefan92]

The M1's are really just there to give Scholz and the German government political cover to release the Leopards. The Abrams tank is too different a beast to be used sustainably in a theater like Ukraine. Having a friggin turbine engine powering your MTB is a great solution if you're 'Murica and have a massive logistical apparatus to support it, but a diesel engined vehicle like the Leopard just makes more sense in Ukraine.

What actually is the big problem about the turbine engine? It can burn a lot of propellants, just like the Leopard engine. Yes, the US Army uses jet propellant, but that's simple for them because they have both tanks and helicopters at their bases and essentially it's the same engine.

Yes I know it's terribly wasteful and uses up to twice as much fuel as the Leopard, but besides that, what is so problematic about logistics with that model?

 

[11101]

Neither are the Russians.

Iraq used a watered down version of the T72A with not even composite armour. Night vision capability consisted of a floodlight. Nothing like the upgraded T72s in the Russian Army.

Still, the T72s are just there for numbers and mostly in the hands of reservists. It is the newer models the West will be most interested in seeing.

The M1's are really just there to give Scholz and the German government political cover to release the Leopards. The Abrams tank is too different a beast to be used sustainably in a theater like Ukraine. Having a friggin turbine engine powering your MTB is a great solution if you're 'Murica and have a massive logistical apparatus to support it, but a diesel engined vehicle like the Leopard just makes more sense in Ukraine.

Exactly, they use tonnes of fuel and how are Ukrainian support crews going to fix a turbine engine if it breaks down.

 

[Carolina Red]

I've asked the similar questions previously here of how tactically smart is to hold on in Bakhmut and lose men in the long run and how much losses there are affecting their manpower on the whole. As I understand they tactically retreated in Bakhmut as well as in Soledad.
Its just lot of people want to hear and see good news, of course they have huge losses there so anything bad it happens to Russian invaders sounds and looks good.

Good question. This is what the Institute for the Study of War said about it…

“The Ukrainian defense of Bakhmut is likely a strategically sound effort despite its costs for Ukraine. While the costs associated with Ukraine’s continued defense of Bakhmut are significant and likely include opportunity costs related to potential Ukrainian counter-offensive operations elsewhere, Ukraine would also have paid a significant price for allowing Russian troops to take Bakhmut easily … Ukrainian forces have previously employed a similar gradual attrition model to compel Russian operations in certain areas to culminate after months of suffering high personnel and equipment losses in pursuit of marginal tactical gains. Russian troops spent months attempting to grind through effective Ukrainian defenses in Severodonetsk and Lysychansk in the early summer of 2022 and captured Lysychansk only after a controlled Ukrainian withdrawal from the area.[1] The capture of Lysychansk and the Luhansk Oblast administrative border, however, quickly proved to be operationally insignificant for Russian forces, and the ultimate result of the Ukrainian defense of the area was the forced culmination of the Russian offensive in Luhansk Oblast, leading to the overall stagnation of Russian offensive operations in Donbas”

 

[Real Name]

Good question. This is what the Institute for the Study of War said about it…

“The Ukrainian defense of Bakhmut is likely a strategically sound effort despite its costs for Ukraine. While the costs associated with Ukraine’s continued defense of Bakhmut are significant and likely include opportunity costs related to potential Ukrainian counter-offensive operations elsewhere, Ukraine would also have paid a significant price for allowing Russian troops to take Bakhmut easily … Ukrainian forces have previously employed a similar gradual attrition model to compel Russian operations in certain areas to culminate after months of suffering high personnel and equipment losses in pursuit of marginal tactical gains. Russian troops spent months attempting to grind through effective Ukrainian defenses in Severodonetsk and Lysychansk in the early summer of 2022 and captured Lysychansk only after a controlled Ukrainian withdrawal from the area.[1] The capture of Lysychansk and the Luhansk Oblast administrative border, however, quickly proved to be operationally insignificant for Russian forces, and the ultimate result of the Ukrainian defense of the area was the forced culmination of the Russian offensive in Luhansk Oblast, leading to the overall stagnation of Russian offensive operations in Donbas”

Good read. I remember now there was a talk about Bakhmut potentially being their Stalingrad. Of course on a much smaller scale but in the sense of them spending themselves for marginal gains thus preventing them of going on a big offensive in the spring or that possible offensive being less effective. They're spending their force from town to town and Ukrainians are retreating tactically.

 

[Simbo]

Abrams has definitely fought against T-72s. And it cleaned feckin house

It's the T90's everyone has their eye on. They are in the field and I've seen one Ukrainian commander state they need to bring up 3 or 4 of theirs when they come across one, to deal with it.

All the youtube war junkies will be frothing at the groin in anticipation of its first encounter with a leapord/challenger/abrams.

 

[Simbo]

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[Real Name]

What tanks are UAF using now?

 

[11101]

What tanks are UAF using now?

Export T72s, which are very outdated versions that didn't get many upgrades, and T80s. They also have some older stuff that is probably kept away from Russian tanks.

 

[stefan92]

Export T72s, which are very outdated versions that didn't get many upgrades, and T80s. They also have some older stuff that is probably kept away from Russian tanks.

They also got a huge amount of T-72 from Poland, as well as some M-55 (upgraded T-55) from Slovakia. The Polish tanks are modernised to a certain degree to be integrated in NATO command&control, the M-55 even use a NATO standard 105mm cannon (the same as used by the Leopard 1 tank, significantly weaker as the 120mm used by Leopard 2 or Abrams).

 

[RoyH1]

What actually is the big problem about the turbine engine? It can burn a lot of propellants, just like the Leopard engine. Yes, the US Army uses jet propellant, but that's simple for them because they have both tanks and helicopters at their bases and essentially it's the same engine.

Yes I know it's terribly wasteful and uses up to twice as much fuel as the Leopard, but besides that, what is so problematic about logistics with that model?

Like @11101 says above, they are more thirsty (lower range on a tank of fuel) and have a more maintenance heavy engine than a diesel engine. Easier to repair for Ukrainian mechanics

 

[Carolina Red]

Iraq used a watered down version of the T72A with not even composite armour. Night vision capability consisted of a floodlight. Nothing like the upgraded T72s in the Russian Army.

I’m aware, but consider that the US was using the now outdated 1991 version of the Abrams in those battles as well. The current T-72 is still outdated compared to the Abrams, or the Leopard and Challenger, for that matter.

It's the T90's everyone has their eye on. They are in the field and I've seen one Ukrainian commander state they need to bring up 3 or 4 of theirs when they come across one, to deal with it.

Yes, the T-90 vs Abrams/Leopard/Challenger will be interesting, but I go back to the fact that the T-90 is just a T-72 with an updated engine and the updated turret from the T-80. If they’re already being knocked out by Ukrainian forces in T-64s and T-72s, then I feel good about all of the NATO tanks chances.

What tanks are UAF using now?

For the most part, it’s been T-64 and T-72. The NATO tanks will be considerably better.

 

[calodo2003]

There is one past battle that the Ukrainians can draw inspiration from since it is about how a smaller tank force held the line against a much bigger attacking force, which was drilled by the Soviet/Russian doctrine.

The Valley of Tears (1973)

The first task for the Ukrainians will be to withstand what the Russians will throw at them (expectedly) soon. If that step is accomplished, then the Ukrainians can think about moving armored forces forward. Considering that the Syrians lost between 260 and 300 Syrian T-55s/T-64s compared to 60-80 Israeli Centurion tanks lost back then, I think we can expect the tank casualty ratio will be much more favorable for the Ukrainians in a similar context because of the more recent Western technology as well.

Link apparently doesn't work.

 

[Carolina Red]

Link apparently doesn't work.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valley_of_Tears

 

[11101]

I’m aware, but consider that the US was using the now outdated 1991 version of the Abrams in those battles as well. The current T-72 is still outdated compared to the Abrams, or the Leopard and Challenger, for that matter.

Yes, the T-90 vs Abrams/Leopard/Challenger will be interesting, but I go back to the fact that the T-90 is just a T-72 with an updated engine and the updated turret from the T-80. If they’re already being knocked out by Ukrainian forces in T-64s and T-72s, then I feel good about all of the NATO tanks chances.

For the most part, it’s been T-64 and T-72. The NATO tanks will be considerably better.

I think the overall point is that no current Western MBT has ever been up against another modern MBT. I dont think there is any concern they will lose but the armies will be keen to see how they perform and where improvements could be made.

Likewise for the environment. The M1 has never fought in this terrain before and the C2/Leopard haven't done much either. There will be lessons to be learned. In the Middle East the environment claimed more casualties than the enemy did.

 

[Carolina Red]

I think the overall point is that no current Western MBT has ever been up against another modern MBT. I dont think there is any concern they will lose but the armies will be keen to see how they perform and where improvements could be made.

Oh, without a doubt. It will be a live fire testing ground like Spain was in the 1930s.

Likewise for the environment. The M1 has never fought in this terrain before and the C2/Leopard haven't done much either. There will be lessons to be learned. In the Middle East the environment claimed more casualties than the enemy did.

This is true, but the good thing is that they were originally designed for fighting the Soviets in Europe. Hopefully the original design still holds.

 

[Pintu]

I see the scenario of the Valley of Tears repeating because it's closer to the current context, where it's down to tanks vs. tans because neither side has a form of air superiority. The quality of the equipment and the crews' training will matter here, but I think Ukraine will be in a position to succeed just like the Israelis did.

The Israelis had better tanks but not having enough meant they were doomed until the Syrians decided to give up and retreat... The Syrians didn’t know they were facing a much weaker unit (less manpower and far less operational tanks left). The time was on their side. The Syrians wrongly assumed the power hitting them could only come from a much superior -in numbers- force... Kahalani‘s brilliance won him and his crew the battle not the tanks…

 

[the hea]

According to Spanish press Spain is ready to send up to 53 Leopard tanks.

 

[Van Piorsing]

Great news. Solovyov will finally surpass Alex Jones in raging.

 

[Raoul]

Great news. Solovyov will finally surpass Alex Jones in raging.

He's so angry its getting a bit boring. The entertainment value tends to go away the more idiotic his comments.

 

[Raoul]

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[Van Piorsing]

He's so angry its getting a bit boring. The entertainment value tends to go away the more idiotic his comments.

I guess eveyone has that breaking point. Guys like Zhirinovsky used to call for nuking European countries a good 30 years. I think he actually died during the angry rant.

Solovyov after the war can always join the standup artists club. I'd love to see him on one stage with Pablo Francisco just for the sake of contrast.

 

[Raoul]

I guess eveyone has that breaking point. Guys like Zhirinovsky used to call for nuking European countries a good 30 years. I think he actually died during the angry rant.

Solovyov after the war can always join the standup artists club. I'd love to see him on one stage with Pablo Francisco just for the sake of contrast.

He will surely get the Baghdad Bob treatment and feck off to Belarus or the like after the war, just the former fled to the UAE.

 

[Van Piorsing]

He will surely get the Baghdad Bob treatment and feck off to Belarus or the like after the war, just the former fled to the UAE.

Belarus sounds perfect. At one point, somebody earlier pointed out he looks like Steven Seagal in dark clothes.

 

[Raoul]

Belarus sounds perfect. At one point, somebody earlier pointed out he looks like Steven Seagal in dark clothes.

- The outfit is so late stage Seagal

 

[Simbo]

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[Raoul]

SIAP

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[frostbite]

Ukraine needs tanks? We have tanks.

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/sierra-army-depot

Sierra Army Depot
Doyle, California

One of the largest fleets of armored vehicles in the world, sitting out in the California desert.

NEARLY A MILE ABOVE SEA level in an isolated corner of Northern California, more than 26,000 armored vehicles stand ready. They form the most noticeable part of the Sierra Army Depot, a 36,000-acre repository for the U.S. Army’s tanks, trucks, and armored personnel carriers.


[...]

Over the decades, the stockpile of weaponry at the Sierra Depot grew as the Army started using the arid base to store an expanding fleet of surplus vehicles. Today that includes some 2,000 M1 Abrams main battle tanks that are parked in neat rows, along with vast lots of armored personnel carriers, trailers, trucks, and other miscellanea.

 

[frostbite]

Germany has decided to give tanks to Ukraine. Finally! Let's see how long they will need to implement the decision.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64401211

Ukraine welcomes German tank move as 'first step'

 

[stefan92]

Germany has decided to give tanks to Ukraine. Finally! Let's see how long they will need to implement the decision.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64401211

Ukraine welcomes German tank move as 'first step'

They will arrive in about three months on the battlefield - when training of Ukrainian soldiers has been finished, which will begin immediately.

A surprising detail: Germany is going to deliver the 2A6 version out of active Bundeswehr duty. Most reports before indicated that it would be older and less capable 2A4 out of reserves.

 

[Morty_]

As for mobilization from Russia, not a whole lot of people from Moscow or St Petersburg have been drafted, correct?

At some point, Putin will have round up people from the main cities too, curious to see the reactions then.