Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

[calodo2003]

Awesome…

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[The Firestarter]

Awesome…

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Did he ring up a customer support center, wonder how that happened. Lucky he was not put on hold.

 

[GlastonSpur]

So now it's not just Ukrainian intelligence saying that Putin is very ill ....

Putin Treated for Cancer in April, U.S. Intelligence Report Says:

https://www.newsweek.com/exclusive-putin-treated-cancer-april-us-intelligence-report-says-1710357

 

[RedDevilQuebecois]

As I remember, there is an article in the post-Soviet Russian constitution that resembles the 25th Amendment for the eventuality where the president is incapacitated for whatever reason. Gotta wonder who would be brave enough to activate it, but that (those) person (people) may still be on the wanted list by targeted sanctions.

 

[DT12]

So now it's not just Ukrainian intelligence saying that Putin is very ill ....

Putin Treated for Cancer in April, U.S. Intelligence Report Says:

https://www.newsweek.com/exclusive-putin-treated-cancer-april-us-intelligence-report-says-1710357

You're still obsessed with this issue of Putin dying aren't you?

To summarise the link you've posted: 3 nameless "officials" from 3 different US departments (including a "retired Air Forсe officer", who are notorious for having the inside track on inscrutable foreign leaders' top-secret medical records) read a "classified" (hmmm....) US intelligence report and then each individually and independently decided to call up a tabloid website that is famous for putting out utter nonsense (unlike other American media outlets Newsweek hasn't used fact-checkers since 1996) to say that Putin was treated for cancer on an unspecified day in April. Bastion of journalistic integrity Newseek is claiming this as an "Exclusive!" In other words, those 3 unnamed guys from entirely separate departments each read the same "classified" report and thought to themselves: "I must call Newsweek and give them this 'exclusive' immediately!"

Favourite passage of the 'article':

"All three officials—one from the office of the Director of National Intelligence, one a retired Air Force senior officer, and one from the Defense Intelligence Agency—caution that the Russian leader's isolation makes it more difficult for U.S. intelligence to precisely assess Putin's status and health.

"What we know is that there is an iceberg out there, albeit one covered in fog"

So: he definitely has cancer and was definitely treated for it in April, but we should caution that we really have no idea what's going on with his health.

Putin isn't dying. I see him every single day on TV commenting on events of that day, and have done since the day of the invasion (you guys would too if your governments hadn't banned "Russian state propaganda" to protect you). Stop with this absolute nonsense you keep posting. At the very least, actually read the shite you post beyond the 'sensational' headline and then take 15 seconds to consider the source instead of instantly rushing to uncritically post it here. Newsweek carries about 20 "exclusives" a day, ranging from "Putin is dying" to "Elvis was spotted in Wyoming last night". Putin is playing a very long game here (as acknowledged by actual analysts, including Zelenskiy's main advisor, Oleksiy Arestovich) and this whole "crazy old irrational man dying of cancer" narrative isn't helping anyone understand what's really going on here.

 

[GlastonSpur]

You're still obsessed with this issue of Putin dying aren't you?

To summarise the link you've posted: 3 nameless "officials" from 3 different US departments (including a "retired Air Forсe officer", who are notorious for having the inside track on inscrutable foreign leaders' top-secret medical records) read a "classified" (hmmm....) US intelligence report and then each individually and independently decided to call up a tabloid website that is famous for putting out utter nonsense (unlike other American media outlets Newsweek hasn't used fact-checkers since 1996) to say that Putin was treated for cancer on an unspecified day in April. Bastion of journalistic integrity Newseek is claiming this as an "Exclusive!" In other words, those 3 unnamed guys from entirely separate departments each read the same "classified" report and thought to themselves: "I must call Newsweek and give them this 'exclusive' immediately!"

Favourite passage of the 'article':

"All three officials—one from the office of the Director of National Intelligence, one a retired Air Force senior officer, and one from the Defense Intelligence Agency—caution that the Russian leader's isolation makes it more difficult for U.S. intelligence to precisely assess Putin's status and health.

"What we know is that there is an iceberg out there, albeit one covered in fog"

So: he definitely has cancer and was definitely treated for it in April, but we should caution that we really have no idea what's going on with his health.

Putin isn't dying. I see him every single day on TV, and have done since the day of the invasion (you guys would too if your governments hadn't banned "Russian state propaganda" to protect you). Stop with this absolute nonsense you keep posting. At the very least, actually read the shite you post beyond the 'sensational' headline and then take 15 seconds to consider the source instead of instantly rushing to uncritically post it here. Newsweek carries about 20 "exclusives" a day, ranging from "Putin is dying" to "Elvis was spotted in Wyoming last night".

So, your claim is that Newsweek has invented the whole thing from nothing - that the three intelligence officials cited don't exist, that there is no intelligence report, and that the direct quotes from these (non-existent) officials are also invented. OK - it's a theory I guess, but one that ignores the many other sources saying that Putin is very ill. These sources include:

* The head of Ukrainian intelligence
* A former Soviet spy: Boris Karpichkov, KGB defector to Britain (and formerly an officer of the Second Chief Directorate)
* The Proekt investigative website
* New Lines Magazine
* A Telegram channel called “General SVR” and purportedly helmed by a former officer from Russia’s Foreign Intelligence Service
* A former British spy who worked in Russia for many years

There have also been reports that rumours of Putin's ill-health are rife within Russian officialdom - reports that every regional director of Russia’s FSB security service reportedly received an email on March 13 instructing them not to believe rumours about the president’s “terminal condition.”

Of course, all these sources and reports could be fabrications or wrong. But let's not pretend they don't exist. And let's not pretend that there aren't several Russian TV videos which seem to show a distinctly ill-looking Putin.

You seem to put great stock in the fact that you see Putin "every single day on TV". However, some of his "appearances" seem to have been fabricated using video-trickery that will fool a casual observer, but not a close analysis. There are several claimed examples of this if you wish to check them out.

 

[Dante]

Irrelevant fact but that building used to have a sky bar on the top floor. A bit weird, like walking into an Oxford college for a beer.

Most (if not all) Oxford colleges have bars.

 

[DatIrishFella]

Why is @Paxi and @DT12 allowed to post in here when they are absolutely shilling for the Kremlin?

Supporters of war crimes shouldnt be allowed to post on this forum.

Its disgusting and so disrespectful to the likes of @Water Melon

Can a mod explain to me why they are still allowed access to this forum?

 

[Water Melon]

I honestly could not care less about Paxi and the likes. I have made my opinion of them and moved on. I hope Ukraine wins the war, the chief rushist is defeated while his army continues to rot from within, thus posing no threat to the world in the next 5-6 decades. This war will never be forgiven nor forgotten, neither will the war crimes and the genocide. The ideology of russians being superior to other slavic or former ussr nations should be eradicated once and for all. We are all just human beings.

 

[NotThatSoph]

Why is @Paxi and @DT12 allowed to post in here when they are absolutely shilling for the Kremlin?

Supporters of war crimes shouldnt be allowed to post on this forum.

Its disgusting and so disrespectful to the likes of @Water Melon

Can a mod explain to me why they are still allowed access to this forum?

At no point has DT12 defended any war crimes, and what they're saying is far less crazy than what several people are spouting and spamming here. Paxi has had a bit of a mare, and is clearly denying the massacres/torbure/executions, but if you read the Israel-Palestine thread you'll see that defending crimes that would be war crimes if it was an official war is not blanket banned on Redcafe.

 

[GazTheLegend]

@DatIrishFella I think free speech is important. Once you start silencing idiots like @Paxi , all that happens is you lose the ability to change their mind - or even yours. You need to have difficult conversations, otherwise you end up with everyone pretending everything is going great, nobody is allowed to say anything that contradicts the company line, and you have essentially lost your freedom to have a different opinion. Basically, you end up like Russia and they go off and nothing gets any better. The second best thing you can do if you really don't like what they are saying is put them on ignore and let them talk themselves into a hole, because even they must have some sort of real understanding of their truth. The best thing you can do though, is exercise your free speech to change their mind.

If it's obvious they're paid by the Kremlin and are sitting in the "Internet Research Agency" in St Petersburg, that's a different matter. After all those guys are paid pretty well, and 85% of the Russian intelligence funding goes towards lying on the internet, at least according to Yuri Bezmenov... And it's hard to believe that that EVER changed.

 

[MoskvaRed]

Most (if not all) Oxford colleges have bars.

For students though. They are not sub-letting part of the space for a bar open to the public.

 

[Real Name]

 

[DatIrishFella]

I've put those two cnuts on ignore as I'll just end up getting banned myself. I've no desire whatsoever to change their minds.

Let them rot in Russia.

 

[VorZakone]

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[harms]

OK - it's a theory I guess, but one that ignores the many other sources saying that Putin is very ill. These sources include:

* The head of Ukrainian intelligence
* A former Soviet spy: Boris Karpichkov, KGB defector to Britain (and formerly an officer of the Second Chief Directorate)
* The Proekt investigative website
* New Lines Magazine
* A Telegram channel called “General SVR” and purportedly helmed by a former officer from Russia’s Foreign Intelligence Service
* A former British spy who worked in Russia for many years

Proekt haven’t claimed what you say they did. They actually did some journalism and stated facts (comparing Putin’s visits to Sochi with different doctors movements) instead of assumptions. More so, they were very specific at what they claim and what they do not, highlighting that having a thyroid oncology doctor visit Putin, obviously, can’t be equated to Putin having thyroid cancer.

The rest of your sources are laughable to say the least with the exception of the chief of Ukrainian intelligence but I’d say that he’s quite likely to have anterior motives not to check his information thoroughly. Karpichnikov lives in UK for more than 20 years & the less anonymous “former something” and telegram channels allegedly helmed by a former someone, the better. I’m surprised that you haven’t mentioned your psychic friend, he wouldn’t look out of place in that list.

I clearly don’t agree with @DT12 on most of his opinions and assessments about what’s happening but he calls you up on that one fair and square.

 

[Walrus]

This war will never be forgiven nor forgotten, neither will the war crimes and the genocide.

This is key. Russia has proven itself to be unreliable, aggressive and to have utter contempt for human life and the rest of Europe. And from what I can see, a concerning amount of ‘normal’ Russians (but not all, of course) seem happy to buy into their narrative and go along with it.

Russia has shown it cannot, or will not peacefully coexist with other countries. The only option is to ostracise and isolate them from the civilised world, and hope they come to their senses. Maintain sanctions, maintain the bans, turn them into North Korea. Once they have withdrawn from all of Ukraine (inc Crimea) and finished paying back the billions they should owe in reparations, then there can be a discussion about reintegrating then with the rest of Europe.

 

[harms]

Russia has shown it cannot, or will not peacefully coexist with other countries. The only option is to ostracise and isolate them from the civilised world, and hope they come to their senses. Maintain sanctions, maintain the bans, turn them into North Korea.

It’s the last thing you want to do if you want Russia to come to their senses (didn’t work out well for North Korea, did it?).

Not that I can think of a good solution that would lead us out of this situation.

 

[Zehner]

@DatIrishFella I think free speech is important. Once you start silencing idiots like @Paxi , all that happens is you lose the ability to change their mind - or even yours. You need to have difficult conversations, otherwise you end up with everyone pretending everything is going great, nobody is allowed to say anything that contradicts the company line, and you have essentially lost your freedom to have a different opinion. Basically, you end up like Russia and they go off and nothing gets any better. The second best thing you can do if you really don't like what they are saying is put them on ignore and let them talk themselves into a hole, because even they must have some sort of real understanding of their truth. The best thing you can do though, is exercise your free speech to change their mind.

If it's obvious they're paid by the Kremlin and are sitting in the "Internet Research Agency" in St Petersburg, that's a different matter. After all those guys are paid pretty well, and 85% of the Russian intelligence funding goes towards lying on the internet, at least according to Yuri Bezmenov... And it's hard to believe that that EVER changed.

There are lines you shouldn't be allowed to cross, like denying the holocaust and stuff like that. Your freedom ends where you harm the freedom of others without a appropriate self interest. These are the rules and they shouldn't be ignored just because you're an idiot and people hope to convince you of the opposite.

Also, I disagree with the notion that you have to allow such opinions. Most of the time, people like this are the loudest so they give the impression to neutral recipients that their "take" on the matter is more present and thus acceptable in society than it actually is. The same way it is misrepresenting when a far right wing party has 5% voters but in a political talk show accounts for 25% of the guests. If you talk bullshit like that, you should bear the consequences for that. And if that means "societal exclusion", so be it.

 

[Stanley Road]

So now it's not just Ukrainian intelligence saying that Putin is very ill ....

Putin Treated for Cancer in April, U.S. Intelligence Report Says:

https://www.newsweek.com/exclusive-putin-treated-cancer-april-us-intelligence-report-says-1710357

He doesn't look like any cancer patient I've ever come across. He may be sick, but with cancer?

 

[Walrus]

It’s the last thing you want to do if you want Russia to come to their senses (didn’t work out well for North Korea, did it?).

Not that I can think of a good solution that would lead us out of this situation.

Yeah, I get that. In an ideal world, maybe the good, reasonable Russians like yourself would be in charge, or at least split the country into a Western Russia and Eastern Russia.

I don’t know what the best thing would be to ‘reach’ the pro-war Russians, or to change their minds. It’s the same problem we have been facing with Trumpians, Brexiteers etc and so far there doesn’t seem to be a great counter strategy for dealing with them.

 

[dove]

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Yea it's very dangerous. The interest is definitely fading away which of course suits Russia (together with their allies in Europe like Serbia, Hungary) and gives them the invaluable time. Let's hope Ukraine are gathering all the weapons right now and are preparing to send Russians located there straight to hell.

 

[harms]

A disclaimer on why I’m so aggressive to Glaston reposting questionable stories from iffy sources is that the Russian propaganda works best by exploiting same things.

The main idea of Russian propaganda isn’t a clear & positive message (positive as in pro-active, not as good) — it’s an incoherent mess of different ideas like fear of Nazism, imperialism, resentment etc. But it’s the most effective at throwing shade on alternative versions of events, creating this picture that everyone lies (including Russia), no one can be trusted and, ergo, you shouldn’t do anything about it.

Yes, they’ll even try to paint things like Bucha as fakes, but when you give them a legitimate reason to state that the rest of the world also posts fakes & speculations, it only works for them, giving Russian propaganda more ammunition.

 

[unchanged_lineup]

There are lines you shouldn't be allowed to cross, like denying the holocaust and stuff like that. Your freedom ends where you harm the freedom of others without a appropriate self interest. These are the rules and they shouldn't be ignored just because you're an idiot and people hope to convince you of the opposite.

Also, I disagree with the notion that you have to allow such opinions. Most of the time, people like this are the loudest so they give the impression to neutral recipients that their "take" on the matter is more present and thus acceptable in society than it actually is. The same way it is misrepresenting when a far right wing party has 5% voters but in a political talk show accounts for 25% of the guests. If you talk bullshit like that, you should bear the consequences for that. And if that means "societal exclusion", so be it.

Agree with this. Paxi went way over the line, it was disgraceful and should have been stopped way sooner.

 

[Cascarino]

A disclaimer on why I’m so aggressive to Glaston

You don’t need a disclaimer for that

 

[GazTheLegend]

@Zehner I agree but that line can be blurry sometimes. I prefer the idea that the truth wins out over idiocy in the end, although putting this into practice with anti vaxxers in the real world has been pretty difficult for me. I think they are just set ironclad in their own distorted world view - I get it, it's difficult to admit when you're wrong about something because you have to start questioning EVERYTHING in the world, and admitting your own ignorance feels awful. But even then I don't think getting angry at people is the correct response, and I'm not a fan of our current "everything Russian needs cancelling!" Response like with Wimbledon it feels like that's exactly what Putin wants:. Turn it all into a "them Vs us" scenario when we need to be turning them INTO us with proof and -the truth-. Once again though: there are people that are paid to do the opposite and that's the real danger in all this. Bad state actors muddy everything.

 

[TwoSheds]

There are lines you shouldn't be allowed to cross, like denying the holocaust and stuff like that. Your freedom ends where you harm the freedom of others without a appropriate self interest. These are the rules and they shouldn't be ignored just because you're an idiot and people hope to convince you of the opposite.

Also, I disagree with the notion that you have to allow such opinions. Most of the time, people like this are the loudest so they give the impression to neutral recipients that their "take" on the matter is more present and thus acceptable in society than it actually is. The same way it is misrepresenting when a far right wing party has 5% voters but in a political talk show accounts for 25% of the guests. If you talk bullshit like that, you should bear the consequences for that. And if that means "societal exclusion", so be it.

I found out the other day that Chinese schools teach that the Holocaust didn't happen. I don't really know why, maybe it's because the likes of it and Stalin's purges might paint dictatorship in a bad light? But yeah, there are the thick end of 1.5bn Holocaust deniers in China apparently, what a world. Perhaps deniers is too strong, more that they're just likely to be totally unaware of it I suppose.

 

[NotThatSoph]

I've put those two cnuts on ignore as I'll just end up getting banned myself. I've no desire whatsoever to change their minds.

Let them rot in Russia.

What's your line? The latest comment you reacted to was basically just pushing back/refuting Glaston's continued spam of trash sources and twisted interpretations of better sources. Harms is doing the same thing, and is obviously not pushing Russian propaganda. Meanwhile other people are thanking Glaston for his contributions, making it likely that blatant misinformation is being accepted.

For God's sake, an earlier tweet claimed that the Azovstal plant had underground gardens and the like. It's a consistent barrage of blatant lies and fantasies mixed in with better stuff, there has to be some room for pushback.

 

[GlastonSpur]

Proekt haven’t claimed what you say they did. They actually did some journalism and stated facts (comparing Putin’s visits to Sochi with different doctors movements) instead of assumptions. More so, they were very specific at what they claim and what they do not, highlighting that having a thyroid oncology doctor visit Putin, obviously, can’t be equated to Putin having thyroid cancer.

The rest of your sources are laughable to say the least with the exception of the chief of Ukrainian intelligence but I’d say that he’s quite likely to have anterior motives not to check his information thoroughly. Karpichnikov lives in UK for more than 20 years & the less anonymous “former something” and telegram channels allegedly helmed by a former someone, the better. I’m surprised that you haven’t mentioned your psychic friend, he wouldn’t look out of place in that list.

I clearly don’t agree with @DT12 on most of his opinions and assessments about what’s happening but he calls you up on that one fair and square.

Stories about Putin's potential illness - including most of the reports that I cited - have been carried by several major newspapers, including The Telegraph, The Independent, The Times and others. But apparently, according to you and @DT12, such reports are not credible enough to meet the high journalistic standards of this thread - go figure.

As for the Proekt investigation, it strongly implies that Putin is pretty ill even if they don't state it as a proven fact. Let's take just one statement from their report: "Oncologist-surgeon Evgeny Selivanov is one of the most frequent medical attendants of Putin. Over the course of four years, the doctor has flown to him 35 times and spent a total of 166 days with the head of state."

Now, we could explain this away by assuming Putin and this doctor are just best buddies and like to hang out together. Or, we could make the more than reasonable assumption that if a cancer-surgeon is spending so much time with Putin, then very likely something is seriously wrong with Putin's health.

 

[Gehrman]

I found out the other day that Chinese schools teach that the Holocaust didn't happen. I don't really know why, maybe it's because the likes of it and Stalin's purges might paint dictatorship in a bad light? But yeah, there are the thick end of 1.5bn Holocaust deniers in China apparently, what a world. Perhaps deniers is too strong, more that they're just likely to be totally unaware of it I suppose.

A bit off topic but source?

 

[TwoSheds]

A bit off topic but source?

Well it's my colleagues in China, I'm sure Google has better sources though. On reflection it may be not so much that they teach it didn't happen, more that they don't teach it at all.

 

[Gehrman]

Well it's my colleagues in China, I'm sure Google has better sources though. On reflection it may be not so much that they teach it didn't happen, more that they don't teach it at all.

I spoke with a young Chinese student long ago who says they barely teach history in China at all.

 

[phelans shorts]

Well it's my colleagues in China, I'm sure Google has better sources though. On reflection it may be not so much that they teach it didn't happen, more that they don't teach it at all.

The latter sounds more likely. It’s no different than UK schools curriculum not including loads of stuff.

 

[harms]

As for the Proekt investigation, it strongly implies that Putin is pretty ill even if they don't state it as a proven fact. Let's take just one statement from their report: "Oncologist-surgeon Evgeny Selivanov is one of the most frequent medical attendants of Putin. Over the course of four years, the doctor has flown to him 35 times and spent a total of 166 days with the head of state."

Now, we could explain this away by assuming Putin and this doctor are just best buddies and like to hang out together. Or, we could make the more than reasonable assumption that if a cancer-surgeon is spending so much time with Putin, then very likely something is seriously wrong with Putin's health.

You’ve said that they reported on his illness, they didn’t, it’s that simple. You can call it semantics, but it’s the difference between journalism & speculation. Putin may have thyroid cancer (I certainly hope so) but it’s far from a given, especially considering how often other doctors had visited him. Or he may have a history of thyroid cancer in the family & be extra cautious/paranoid about it. Or a million other things.

 

[GlastonSpur]

You’ve said that they reported on his illness, they didn’t, it’s that simple. You can call it semantics, but it’s the difference between journalism & speculation. Putin may have thyroid cancer (I certainly hope so) but it’s far from a given, especially considering how often other doctors had visited him. Or he may have a history of thyroid cancer in the family & be extra cautious/paranoid about it. Or a million other things.

I haven't said that Putin's serious ill-health is a given, but it's certainly a very credible possibility given the available evidence and the range of sources claiming that he is very ill. This is not changed by your dismissal of each of these sources. Nor is it changed by your talking about a "million other" reasons - apart from the most obvious and likely reason - why a cancer-surgeon spends so much time with Putin.

Moreover, it's ridiculous to criticise me for citing reports and claims that several major newspapers have carried.

 

[harms]

I haven't said that Putin's serious ill-health is a given, but it's certainly a very credible possibility given the available evidence and the range of sources claiming that he is very ill. This is not changed by your dismissal of each of these sources. Nor is it changed by your talking about a "million other" reasons - apart from the most obvious and likely reason - why a cancer-surgeon spends so much time with Putin.

Moreover, it's ridiculous to criticise me for citing reports and claims that several major newspapers have carried.

Okay. What’s his supposed diagnosis that explains otolaryngologist visits (one of them visited almost twice as much as the oncologist, another one just a few times more) or dermatovenereologist that spent 6 days more with Putin than the said oncologist?

Does Putin has herpes now?

 

[onemanarmy]

Okay. What’s his supposed diagnosis that explains otolaryngologist visits (one of them visited almost twice as much as the oncologist, another one just a few times more) or dermatovenereologist that spent 6 days more with Putin than the said oncologist?

Does Putin has herpes now?

Throat cancer for instance.
Chemo can cause severe skin and nail problems.

It's all wild speculation of course.

 

[WI_Red]

Okay. What’s his supposed diagnosis that explains otolaryngologist visits (one of them visited almost twice as much as the oncologist, another one just a few times more) or dermatovenereologist that spent 6 days more with Putin than the said oncologist?

Does Putin has herpes now?

Well, has been fecking around and finding out, so it seems likely.

 

[GlastonSpur]

Okay. What’s his supposed diagnosis that explains otolaryngologist visits (one of them visited almost twice as much as the oncologist, another one just a few times more) or dermatovenereologist that spent 6 days more with Putin than the said oncologist?

Does Putin has herpes now?

I don't know for sure what Putin has or doesn't have, nor have I claimed otherwise. I do know that cancer - and some of the treatments for it - can cause a range of other illnesses, which might explain the various types of other doctors that, according to the Proekt investigation, seem to very frequently attend to Putin.

Is it beyond you to admit that Putin being very ill is the most likely explanation - not the only possible explanation, but the most likely - for his being very frequently visited by a cancer-surgeon?

 

[The Firestarter]

Well, has been fecking around and finding out, so it seems likely.

When you putin too much