Scottish Politics

Cheesy

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Thought I'd make a thread for this after Jim Murphy was named Scottish Labour leader since it doesn't really apply to the Westminster politics thread, and there's a few Scots around here.

Anyway, what do people make of it? I'm not sure he'll do well for them, kind of in the same mold as the Labour types who are hated up here right now. Will certainly be better than Lamont though who was utterly clueless.
 

Reds-of-Ulster

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What was the target Oil Price for independence for the SNP?

Didn't they say they'd need an average of $100 a barrel or something? Would be interesting to see how they would have dealt with potential problems if the prices stay around the current mark and Independence happened.
 

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What was the target Oil Price for independence for the SNP?

Didn't they say they'd need an average of $100 a barrel or something? Would be interesting to see how they would have dealt with potential problems if the prices stay around the current mark and Independence happened.
Can't remember the exact price, although obviously the latest forecasts would've had them falling short. Seen some interesting arguments about how drops in prices may have helped with fuel prices etc, but a lot of it is all very confusing.:lol:

Obviously their plan was to set up an oil fund for when prices did drop down, although it would've been bad luck had Scotland voted Yes and then it happened right away.
 

Reds-of-Ulster

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Can't remember the exact price, although obviously the latest forecasts would've had them falling short. Seen some interesting arguments about how drops in prices may have helped with fuel prices etc, but a lot of it is all very confusing.:lol:

Obviously their plan was to set up an oil fund for when prices did drop down, although it would've been bad luck had Scotland voted Yes and then it happened right away.
Just found this, from another thread on here.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...oil-forecasts-wrong-by-155-million-a-day.html

£155 million a day! And that would be even worse now since that article is a bit dated.

Murphy etc should press the SNP on these issues, though I am sure they already are.
 

Chorley1974

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What was the target Oil Price for independence for the SNP?

Didn't they say they'd need an average of $100 a barrel or something? Would be interesting to see how they would have dealt with potential problems if the prices stay around the current mark and Independence happened.
Investment in exploration in North Sea oil has been massively cut due to the oil price, the North Sea is relatively expensive to produce oil, and oil companies will divert investment to lower cost regions if this continues. Basically the economic plan for the SNP case for leaving the UK is shot to pieces with the current price.
 

Cheesy

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We're not just interested in smoking and drink driving ffs. Where's the Free Heroin bill?
:lol:

I think UKIP in Scotland really expose certain dodgy grassroots elements of the party though. They're sort of managing to look semi-professional in England due to the fact that they've gotten quite big (albeit with plenty of cock-ups), but some of their Scottish candidates (and their main Scottish figure...) are just utterly absurd.

Apparently there's also a candidate who's admitted he wants to scrap the minimum wage and workers rights too.
 

Mr Pigeon

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:lol:

I think UKIP in Scotland really expose certain dodgy grassroots elements of the party though. They're sort of managing to look semi-professional in England due to the fact that they've gotten quite big (albeit with plenty of cock-ups), but some of their Scottish candidates (and their main Scottish figure...) are just utterly absurd.

Apparently there's also a candidate who's admitted he wants to scrap the minimum wage and workers rights too.
Wow. I'd love to hear the reasoning behind those.
 

Cheesy

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Wow. I'd love to hear the reasoning behind those.
Because they're a throwback to the 1970s as a party....or at least aim to be. He probably thinks, "What a bloody load of rubbish all these regulations are!" I expect the candidate would much rather a time when people could be harassed in the office, or drink all day cos' it's a good laugh, or something like that.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/l...ion-2015-ukip-set-5403581#JZ5Ap0603hfyiwAi.97

That's where the quote is from.
 

Mr Pigeon

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Because they're a throwback to the 1970s as a party....or at least aim to be. He probably thinks, "What a bloody load of rubbish all these regulations are!" I expect the candidate would much rather a time when people could be harassed in the office, or drink all day cos' it's a good laugh, or something like that.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/l...ion-2015-ukip-set-5403581#JZ5Ap0603hfyiwAi.97

That's where the quote is from.
:lol: "Back in my day a man could say what he wanted without the *********** and the ***** ****** *********** getting all ****".
 

Cheesy

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:lol: "Back in my day a man could say what he wanted without the *********** and the ***** ****** *********** getting all ****".
Pretty much, really.:lol:

Coburn is the gift that keeps giving though, from the periscope thing to the April Fools poll.
 

Cheesy

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@Mr Pigeon On the subject of Scottish UKIP, have you seen David Coburn's interview with Bernard Ponsonby on STV yet? He gets asked about their manifesto and is literally unable to cost any single policy or commitment, and admits he doesn't know any of it.:lol:
 

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@Mr Pigeon On the subject of Scottish UKIP, have you seen David Coburn's interview with Bernard Ponsonby on STV yet? He gets asked about their manifesto and is literally unable to cost any single policy or commitment, and admits he doesn't know any of it.:lol:
:lol: I'll check it out.
 

Nick 0208 Ldn

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Charities and sex workers condemn Scottish Labour’s ‘rapists’ charter’

By Katie Grant
26 April 2016


Charities and sex workers have denounced plans unveiled by Scottish Labour to make the purchase of sex illegal, branding the party’s election manifesto pledge a “rapists’ charter”.

Currently the exchange of sexual services for money is technically legal in the UK, but related activities, such as soliciting in a public place, kerb-crawling, owning or managing a brothel and pimping are outlawed.

“Contrary to the spin, these proposals do not ‘decriminalise the seller’”

The manifesto, to be published on Wednesday, outlines a “three-pronged framework” for tackling sexual exploitation: criminalising the buying of sex, decriminalising people involved in prostitution and providing long-term support and exiting services for those exploited through prostitution.
‘Harmful and wrongheaded’ policy

But the Scottish Prostitutes Education Project (ScotPep), which advocates for sex workers’ rights, and the UK-wide sex worker safety charity National Ugly Mugs expressed “profound disappointment” over the “harmful and wrongheaded” policy.

“Contrary to the spin, these proposals do not ‘decriminalise the seller’”, the charities said in a joint statement.

“If Scottish Labour were to implement their policy, sex workers would still face criminal sanctions,” they said, pointing to brothel-keeping laws which they argued are used to prosecute sex workers who share a flat for safety. “These proposals retain that criminalisation,” the charities said.

“The criminalisation of clients makes sex workers more vulnerable to violence and exploitation,” they added.

“Scottish Labour’s disastrous proposals would mean clients refusing to give any identifying information about themselves for fear of prosecution – and sex workers having to accept completely ‘unscreened’ clients, about whom they have no identifying information which they could use to hold an aggressor to account.”
‘Rapists’ charter’

Nadine Stott, ScotPep co-chair, said: “Everywhere that these laws have been tried, they have led to an increase in sex workers’ vulnerability to violence.”

Ms Stott added: “Their proposals are nothing more than a rapists’ charter.”

Alex Feis-Bryce, CEO of National Ugly Mugs, described Scottish Labour’s claim that the proposals would decriminalise sex workers as “totally disingenuous” and accused the party of attempting to eradicate sex work for ideological reasons.

The manifesto pledge is “a PR stunt” designed to disguise the real objective of the party’s “moral crusade” to “eradicate sex work for ideological reasons irrespective of the harm to sex workers”, Ms Feis-Byce said.

https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news...lth-secretary-likely-last-major-job-politics/



Normally i would post this n the ongoing thread about sex workers' rights, but with it baring directly on the election i thought it should go in here on this occasion.

Infuriatingly, people seems to be both blind and death to the failures of the Swedish model, so certainly there is an ideological strand to this. I am concerned that we'll see the possibility of criminalisation raise its head again in England soon too.

Do you think Labour will gain much from this?
 

Cheesy

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The words in the headline are incredibly strong, although admittedly I don't think it's a particularly great idea. Prohibition tends not to work, although I actually did think prostitution in all forms was currently illegal.

It's not really going to matter though since Scottish Labour have no chance whatsoever of getting into party. If such accusations really damage them though, could maybe hurt their chances of second.
 

Cheesy

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Why not? It is sex workers who will suffer the consequences of such dangerous and ideologically driven policy making. France committed to a similarly reckless law earlier this year, and more blunt language is perhaps overdue.



In other news:
Scottish election poll puts Labour in third place behind Tories
Aye, going to be a tough one for Labour. They're doing very little to reverse their fortunes and will probably just have to hope they can emerge in second on the day.
 

Cheesy

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Anyone else voting tomorrow then? Still unsure of how to go for my constituency/list combination. Toying between SNP/Lib Dems/Greens.
 

Ubik

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Fair play.

If Labour come third tonight, you do wonder if there's any way back.
 

DOTA

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Friend of mine is torn about how to vote in the EU referendum. Wants Scottish independence. Doesn't want to leave the EU. Is quite aware that the latter increases the chance of the former.
 

DOTA

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Fair play.

If Labour come third tonight, you do wonder if there's any way back.
I quite like her. I haven't a clue what her views are (presumably not close to mine) but personality, she's someone I quite like.
 

Nick 0208 Ldn

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Friend of mine is torn about how to vote in the EU referendum. Wants Scottish independence. Doesn't want to leave the EU. Is quite aware that the latter increases the chance of the former.
An independent Scotland would also be outside of the EU though, at least until they joined. And presumably that would be without the UK's present range of opt-outs.
 

Cheesy

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Friend of mine is torn about how to vote in the EU referendum. Wants Scottish independence. Doesn't want to leave the EU. Is quite aware that the latter increases the chance of the former.
I'd say to just vote In. Scottish independence could still be a long time away, and it's a dangerous move to opt out of the EU to then have to definitively come back in if we do get it. I was leaning to an exit for a while, but not because of anything to do with independence.

I quite like her. I haven't a clue what her views are (presumably not close to mine) but personality, she's someone I quite like.
She's...clever. I sat in on an interview with her before she became Tory leader, and she's undeniably capable and very intelligent. Hard-working too. My problem with her is that for however personable is, she remains a Tory who doesn't really want people to think of her as a Tory. She'll occasionally offer a sprinkling of criticism towards them, but on the major, fundamental issues she appears to fully support them and I tend to disagree with most of her views.

Anyhow...I stuck with SNP/Greens myself. Been tiring a bit of the SNP's incredibly safe campaign, and of the whole 'Both Votes SNP' thing when a list vote for them is pointless in most regions, but I can't stand elements of my local Labour party (some councillors are alright though) and would be glad to see the back of them for now. Was tempted by the Lib Dems who had a very decent manifesto considering, although they're still fairly spineless overall. Maybe next time.
 

Cheesy

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Labour to finish behind the Tories comfortably according to the Sun.
 

Ubik

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Labour to finish behind the Tories comfortably according to the Sun.
Completely wiped out in the constituencies apparently. Not good.
 

Cheesy

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Completely wiped out in the constituencies apparently. Not good.
Yeah, they'd managed to just hold onto a few Glasgow constituencies last time but their collapse and continued SNP surge means they've got no chance. Lamont's on BBC and pretty much admitted she's a bit fecked.

As much as it's quite hilarious to see Labour reaping what they sowed after their arrogance towards Scotland for years, I'd still rather see them as the second party ahead of Davidson's Tories who will undoubtedly play this up as a big success. Not really sure what Labour will be able to do going forward. A bit fecked all round it seems.
 

Ubik

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Yeah, they'd managed to just hold onto a few Glasgow constituencies last time but their collapse and continued SNP surge means they've got no chance. Lamont's on BBC and pretty much admitted she's a bit fecked.

As much as it's quite hilarious to see Labour reaping what they sowed after their arrogance towards Scotland for years, I'd still rather see them as the second party ahead of Davidson's Tories who will undoubtedly play this up as a big success. Not really sure what Labour will be able to do going forward. A bit fecked all round it seems.
Yeah I have no idea how to progress from this. Out-lefting the SNP looks undoable. Moving right to take up the Tory votes is going to alienate more on the left. And the knock on effect of that in England means they have to win Kensington to get a majority at Westminster. Bit fecked all round.
 

Cheesy

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Getting worse for Labour. The Tories are gaining in just about every constituency, with the opposite for Labour. Seem pretty much done in Scotland.
 

Ubik

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Getting worse for Labour. The Tories are gaining in just about every constituency, with the opposite for Labour. Seem pretty much done in Scotland.
Surprisingly though a couple of seats have according to reports been held against the national swing, East Lothian and Edinburgh South. Some weird switches going on it seems.
 

Cheesy

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Surprisingly though a couple of seats have according to reports been held against the national swing, East Lothian and Edinburgh South. Some weird switches going on it seems.
Yeah, it's a bit weird. Lib Dems making 20-30% gains in the upper islands, and apparently Rennie might win a seat in Fife too. Still, despite some possible anomalies the overall trend for Labour is a bit grim...10% down overall so far. That's not awful in itself because it'd be similar to last year, but it's more the Tory gains. It suggests that with the Labour-indy supporters having already gone SNP, it's now more disillusioned centre-right/unionist Labour supporters switching over to the Tories. As a result, it seems it's more likely to be SNP vs Tories in future, with Labour not really having any sort of place or voice. Ideas have been thrown around but I really don't see any way at all for them to reverse this.
 

Ubik

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Yeah, it's a bit weird. Lib Dems making 20-30% gains in the upper islands, and apparently Rennie might win a seat in Fife too. Still, despite some possible anomalies the overall trend for Labour is a bit grim...10% down overall so far. That's not awful in itself because it'd be similar to last year, but it's more the Tory gains. It suggests that with the Labour-indy supporters having already gone SNP, it's now more disillusioned centre-right/unionist Labour supporters switching over to the Tories. As a result, it seems it's more likely to be SNP vs Tories in future, with Labour not really having any sort of place or voice. Ideas have been thrown around but I really don't see any way at all for them to reverse this.
Definitely awful for Labour, losing even the position of the official opposition is fairly shocking, if results continue like this.
 

Cheesy

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Definitely awful for Labour, losing even the position of the official opposition is fairly shocking, if results continue like this.
Not only losing it as some thought, but possibly by a very comfortable margin too.
 

Ubik

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Going by the results so far, only real hope for a unionist opposition to the SNP capable of winning seats (both for Holyrood and Westminster), is basically Lib Dems and Labour ceasing to stand there and creating a new combined centre-left one.

Holy shit, as I write that Ruth Davidson just won a constituency seat from the SNP :lol: mental.
 

Cheesy

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Yeah, pretty incredible one that. Also taken Aberdeenshire West too. Really taking it to the SNP in certain areas. It really is a bizarre one. The SNP are making the gains you'd expect from Labour, but they're losing some bizarre seats you'd have assumed would've been okay.

And even a joint Lab-Lib campaign is unlikely to make a lot of traction in most areas. The Lib Dems are only doing well in areas they're either winning or coming close to winning anyway (not a lot), and in any other constituencies they're barely keeping deposits while SNP often achieve double of what Labour get.
 

Ubik

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Yeah, pretty incredible one that. Also taken Aberdeenshire West too. Really taking it to the SNP in certain areas. It really is a bizarre one. The SNP are making the gains you'd expect from Labour, but they're losing some bizarre seats you'd have assumed would've been okay.

And even a joint Lab-Lib campaign is unlikely to make a lot of traction in most areas. The Lib Dems are only doing well in areas they're either winning or coming close to winning anyway (not a lot), and in any other constituencies they're barely keeping deposits while SNP often achieve double of what Labour get.
I'm thinking more in terms of a new party having the baggage of neither so might bring more votes in, but the Tories kind of feck the plan up anyway.

This probably explains it
Independence becoming the deciding factor rather than secondary.
 

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SNP losing majority should kill talk of a second referendum for now.
 

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I don't see any way back for Scottish Labour in the next ten years. At least.
 

Cheesy

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SNP losing majority should kill talk of a second referendum for now.
Not really, they're only two off in a system designed not to get majorities, and the Green MSP's means there's still a pro-independence majority.
 

Gio

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Independence becoming the deciding factor rather than secondary.
Aye, I think there's been a hardening either side of the national question with Davidson apparently putting forward the clearest position in opposition to the SNP.
Yeah, pretty incredible one that. Also taken Aberdeenshire West too. Really taking it to the SNP in certain areas. It really is a bizarre one. The SNP are making the gains you'd expect from Labour, but they're losing some bizarre seats you'd have assumed would've been okay.
Interestingly there have been a couple of recent gaffes by incumbent MSPs where SNP have lost seats to the Conservatives, which may have just tipped the scales in tightly balanced contests.