Serie A 90's Draft Round 1 - 2mufc0/Invictus vs. Raees

[antohan]

As a combination, perhaps Suker’s poise benefitted from Boksic’s softening up of the opposition.

As if to highlight the point, Boksic scored only 17 goals across three seasons in Serie A for Lazio between 1993 and 1996 yet earned a move to Juve, where he won the Scudetto, Coppa Italia, European Super Cup and World Club Cup in a single season.

Not sure who I was checking but during the draft I came across a match presser from Zdenek Zeman bitching about his forwards not hitting a barndoor. Apparently all brought about by an injury to Boksic. Said something along the lines of "They are strikers, they are paid well enough to score goals. I'm tired of hearing them complain about Boksic's absence. It's no excuse".

He was probably right, but goes to show stats aren't the be all and end all when assessing strikers who didn't play solo upfront.

 

[antohan]

FWIW I don't really see how that attack brings out the best in Zidane.

Mmmm... I'm more of the idea that it doesn't bring out the best in Bierhoff, which is actually a bigger problem I think.

 

[antohan]

I'll see if I can look into some games from the 90's and post some links on here.

Check Nápoli, I doubt you will find him at LB for Roma as Carboni was the regular there.

He most likely played LB at Nápoli (simply because I can't remember anyone playing LB there mid-90s) but I don't think he would have been deployed as anything but a defensive one after 3-4 seasons at CB and given how they approached games.

I'm pretty sure he no longer had it in him, be it due to age or injuries.

 

[Enigma_87]

Оut of curiosity as it gets mentioned quite often, what is the difference in people's mind between RCB in a back 4 and RCB in back 5? We've seen players like Bergomi and Thuram being picked as RCB's quite often in back 4 in all time drafts and barely gets mentioned. Can't see the difference if it is Serie A or all time draft, as they are played there due to the exact same exploits.

 

[sincher]

Thuram was fecking class. Field him at CB at any time and he would be awesome.

See also Zambrotta at LB the other day.

 

[antohan]

Оut of curiosity as it gets mentioned quite often, what is the difference in people's mind between RCB in a back 4 and RCB in back 5? We've seen players like Bergomi and Thuram being picked as RCB's quite often in back 4 in all time drafts and barely gets mentioned. Can't see the difference if it is Serie A or all time draft, as they are played there due to the exact same exploits.

The ones in a back 5 have to absolutely be better out wide than any random CB.

Not all of them will work at CB though, particularly when they are more likely converted RB like Bruno N'Gotty. Height can also be an issue, e.g. maybe Gaz would have worked at RCB but we know he was a liability in a CB pair.

Basically, the RCB in a trio could get away with not being a top notch defender (particularly when the central player is more sweeper than libero), the one in a pair can't.

None of that applies to Bergomi or Thuram though. It's just a case of people having different views on assessing proof of peak.

 

[Invictus]

Okay, hi! Really didn't want to comment vs. @Raees but ¯\(ツ)/¯

Wrt. Boksić, I don't particularly have a problem with him playing in an inside forward role because he was fairly versatile (played a few games as the right/left sided attacker under Sven-Göran Eriksson with Salas ahead of him and Lopez on the other flank as well), however, he didn't quite replicate his Ligue 1 form in Serie A as regards productivity - which is a potential issue when you consider that Francescoli was also not quite peak Francescoli in Serie A. In a draft that was predicated on Serie A peaks in semi-objective terms, that's a bit of a grey area, and even though it's up to interpretation as regards the voters and other managers, a bit of a distinction has to be made when judging both attacks in relative terms.

Wrt. Thuram, again, you could argue that a distinction should be made between THE Thuram - that performed at his best at rightback and right centerback at Parma, and Thuram the centerback.

e.g. This is more in line with Parma-Thuram (vs. Marseille in the UEFA Cup, yes, but it kinda details the type of positions he excelled in - aside from RCB in a 3/5 with Sensini through the middle):

Spoiler

Thuram definitely progressed into a more accomplished centerback at Juventus in the 2000s, IMO (a better reader in central regions, more patient and positionally astute and sturdy as a pure defender than an athletic stopper) - which should not be conflated with his time at Parma in general. But again, how that factors into the overall defensive makeup is up to the voters.

And Zidane should be bloody brilliant with Golden Head...count the number of set pieces and inside channel goals (which was a bit of a specialty for Zidane as regards providing assists) in something like maybe this:


Bierhoff should also be a suitable pivot and target for Zidane's lobs and flicks at the edge of the attacking third. Another advantage of having Zidane occupying spaces in the creative third is that in the absence of a dedicated defensive midfielder to mind Zidane at all times, a lot of opposition players will be stretched to their limits in the defensive phase - which frees up room for Jarni and Angloma to shunt up and down the flank and produce more opportunities for Bierhoff. Then there's the comprehensive threat of Ravanelli - who could disorient markers for Zidane, and Boban - at once a superb creative threat and a scorer in key moments:


https://forzaitalianfootball.com/2015/07/legend-of-calcio-zvonimir-boban/

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Boksic is a very good fit.

 

[Invictus]

Bit surprised that Sebastiano is operating as a wingback as well. I'd categorize him as more of a covering fullback and a balanced defender first and foremost, and not someone that should be tasked with manning an entire flank. The Italian school of football employed goofy, overly defensive, lopsided templates for sure - with even the likes of Gentile operating reeeeally wide in a back 5 (traditionally reserved for high intensity and productive wingbacks), but that approach doesn't really jive with the type of outside influence Boksić needs on the left flank - especially in the absence of a left central midfielder to remedy some of the issues through the left side of the pitch - which should be there for the taking for Boban in particular as he weaves his way through central midfielders that will be wary of Zidane.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Tricky matchup here. Raees' tactic is intriguing. Its easy to see some great attacking combinations there. Cafu I can see making a difference here. I'll have to think about Zidane-Ravanelli-Bierhoff more.

 

[Enigma_87]

The ones in a back 5 have to absolutely be better out wide than any random CB.

Not all of them will work at CB though, particularly when they are more likely converted RB like Bruno N'Gotty. Height can also be an issue, e.g. maybe Gaz would have worked at RCB but we know he was a liability in a CB pair.

Basically, the RCB in a trio could get away with not being a top notch defender (particularly when the central player is more sweeper than libero), the one in a pair can't.

None of that applies to Bergomi or Thuram though. It's just a case of people having different views on assessing proof of peak.

Yeah, no doubt that a RB or a wing back converted to CB is not the best fit and most of the time won't work well, but a RCB who shone in a 5 at the back system and has the quality and ability to play centrally wouldn't IMO have any problem filling in a RCB role, even without a libero to cover him.

This of course applies to top of the line defenders, like the ones mentioned, and not the likes of N'Gotty or average defenders who relied on more bodies at the back not to get exposed.

My question was more of the skillset required to play in those two roles. A top of the line RCB in a back five, would seamlessly fit in a back four. We've seen it even more so in modern formations with more expansive full backs going forward and providing the width on the wing - an athletic CB able to cover wide as well as centrally would be a perfect solution.

 

[Raees]

Out of interest did Tudor play as the central centre back in Juve's back three?

 

[Invictus]

Out of interest did Tudor play as the central centre back in Juve's back three?

Yep, Juventus would switch the back 3 personnel towards the end of the '90s at times, and he even started in lieu of Ferrara through the middle when the latter was rested.

e.g. In the 1999/2000 season - flanked by Paolo Montero and Mark Iuliano - who could similarly operate through the middle as well as in a back 4 as nominal central defenders:

His resumé is essentially built on being a centerback as regards peak position - and secondarily a defensive midfielder.

 

[Raees]

Yep, Juventus would switch the back 3 personnel towards the end of the '90s at times, and he even started in lieu of Ferrara through the middle when the latter was rested.

e.g. In the 1999/2000 season - flanked by Paolo Montero and Mark Iuliano - who could similarly operate through the middle as well as in a back 4 as nominal central defenders:

His resumé is essentially built on being a centerback as regards peak position - and secondarily a defensive midfielder.

Thanks mate didn’t know Montero went RCB at times

 

[antohan]

Wound up voting on the basis that if Raees' front four clicks there's no way that defence can stop them.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

What is Amoroso goal scoring record at his peak?

 

[Invictus]

What is Amoroso goal scoring record at his peak?

Márcio was exceptional in 1998/99 - finishing as the Capocannoniere:


Aggregate record is pretty good as well - though not as impressive as his seasonal peak in terms of the end product:

Transfermarkt Link.

 

[Raees]

Wound up voting on the basis that if Raees' front four clicks there's no way that defence can stop them.

Thanks.. although doesn’t seem to be capturing the imagination of the voters. I don’t see how Zidane behind Bierhoff and Ravenelli can compete with Enzo, Boksic, Möller with guys like Cafu and Amoroso in attack too.

 

[Invictus]

Thanks.. although doesn’t seem to be capturing the imagination of the voters. I don’t see how Zidane behind Bierhoff and Ravenelli can compete with Enzo, Boksic, Möller with guys like Cafu and Amoroso in attack too.

Come on, mate. Reckon this bit is quite disingenuous and a wee bit amusing in equal measure: I don’t see how Zidane behind Bierhoff and Ravenelli can compete. Aye, how can scrubs like Zidane, Bierhoff, Boban and Ravanelli even compete?

Bierhoff was more accomplished as a striker than Amoroso in Serie A:

He scored a total of 103 goals Serie A, one of the highest totals for a non-Italian in the league's history. In the 1997–98 season, he was the Serie A top scorer with 27 goals for Udinese.

Zidane the best creative midfielder in this pool, Ravanelli a more consistent and decisive scorer than say Boksić (scored 21 Serie A + Copa goals in his seasonal peak - only 1 less than any 3 year stretch by Boksić - let alone 1 or even 2), and then a genuine Serie A legend in Boban - who was at the peak of his powers in the league and not entering the final stages of his club career in Europe. Not to mention, I can't quite envision your team dominating the game as was mentioned in the OP - not against that midfield quartet in possession...

Dominate the game, look to the likes of Moller, Francescoli to drift across the pitch and control the tempo and use Boksic as a battering ram out wide and up top.. with a desire to play Amoroso in, our assassin up front who will rarely be out wide but has experience of being up front in a wideish role in a 3-4-3 for Udinese. Use our full backs to provide width and keep the game stretched.. exploiting the oppositions lack of legs.

Anyway, I'm off in a bit, Good luck!

 

[Raees]

Come on, mate. Though this bit is quite disingenuous, and a wee bit amusing - I don’t see how Zidane behind Bierhoff and Ravenelli can compete. Bierhoff was much more accomplished than Amoroso, Zidane the best creative player in this pool, Ravanelli a more decisive scorer than say Boksić (scored 21 Serie A + Copa goals in his seasonal peak - only 1 less than Boksić scored in 4 Serie A seasons), and then a genuine Serie A legend in Boban. Not to mention, I can't quite envision your team dominating the game as was mentioned in the OP - not against that midfield four.

I don't dispute any of that, but putting names together doesn't necessarily equate to chemistry. Zidane was at his best with runners around him and fellow technicians/ball carriers in the SS position.. Del Piero, Henry. Ravenelli, was a good all-round footballer but wasn't a top tier technician who can help Zidane run that game in the final third. Plus Ravenelli is on the side of Cafu and Thuram, can't see him getting anything out of those two.

Zidane is up against Simeone and Jugovic, both of whom I will expect to give him a solid challenge, even withstanding his support from Boban.

As for Bierhoff, pretty much a target man.. and Zidane fares better with more elusive poachy forwards like a Inzaghi, Trezeguet who play on shoulder of last man. There's a distinct lack of pace about that trio compared to my attack. Lack of fluidity as well I would argue. Bierhoff's greatest successes came in a 3-4-3 system which enabled him to receive plenty of support, plenty of width and enable him to focus on goalscoring. I fear with the current set up, it requires more from him than just goals and he's going to be found wanting in that respect.

Even without Enzo's influence, we have some serious technicians in midfield.. which is why I stand by the comment we can control this game even if it is 3 v 4 in midfield..

 

[antohan]

I don't dispute any of that, but putting names together doesn't necessarily equate to chemistry. Zidane was at his best with runners around him and fellow technicians/ball carriers in the SS position.. Del Piero, Henry. Ravenelli, was a good all-round footballer but wasn't a top tier technician who can help Zidane run that game in the final third. Plus Ravenelli is on the side of Cafu and Thuram, can't see him getting anything out of those two.

Zidane is up against Simeone and Jugovic, both of whom I will expect to give him a solid challenge, even withstanding his support from Boban.

As for Bierhoff, pretty much a target man.. and Zidane fares better with more elusive poachy forwards like a Inzaghi, Trezeguet who play on shoulder of last man. There's a distinct lack of pace about that trio compared to my attack. Lack of fluidity as well I would argue. Bierhoff's greatest successes came in a 3-4-3 system which enabled him to receive plenty of support, plenty of width and enable him to focus on goalscoring. I fear with the current set up, it requires more from him than just goals and he's going to be found wanting in that respect.

Even without Enzo's influence, we have some serious technicians in midfield.. which is why I stand by the comment we can control this game even if it is 3 v 4 in midfield..

Great post, absolutely spot on.

 

[harms]

I don't dispute any of that, but putting names together doesn't necessarily equate to chemistry. Zidane was at his best with runners around him and fellow technicians/ball carriers in the SS position.. Del Piero, Henry.

Not sure than Henry is a great example of good chemistry, they weren't exactly great together (at least they weren't as good as they should've been, considering their individual talents). Although I get your point in general

 

[Raees]

Not sure than Henry is a great example of good chemistry, they weren't exactly great together (at least they weren't as good as they should've been, considering their individual talents). Although I get your point in general

It didn't benefit Henry - totally agree but it worked for Zidane if that makes sense. Henry had to sacrifice himself.

 

[Raees]

Couple of hours left .. not much more to add tbh. Last point is do we think Karembau has enough about him to protect that defence against Moller/Enzo/Jugovic coming through central areas?

 

[antohan]

Couple of hours left .. not much more to add tbh. Last point is do we think Karembau has enough about him to protect that defence against Moller/Enzo/Jugovic coming through central areas?

I do rate Karembeu more than most here. I suspect that's partly due to people assessing him on his Real incarnation as a DM (a poor man's Makelele in same role as here), while I rate him higher as a footballer based on his Sampdoria showings as a midfield playmaker, in a pairing with Seedorf which was full of energy and athleticism.

So it's an odd one really: his role here isn't what he did in Serie A but, conversely, he was a much more complete player there. I don't think it is right to question if he has enough about him (he does), afaic the issue really is that he didn't have such a disciplined and restricted role in Serie A.

 

[2mufc0]

Couple of hours left .. not much more to add tbh. Last point is do we think Karembau has enough about him to protect that defence against Moller/Enzo/Jugovic coming through central areas?

He's not by himself mate, he has De Napoli next to him and we also have Boban who can help out in defence. We are more equipped in midfield than yours imo.

Secondly, Karembeu was non stop, he probably played his best football around this period, his work rate and tenacity is just as good as Simeone's at this point in his career.