Sheep draft - harms vs VivaJanuzaj

[Balu]

Team harms​

I'm playing a very fluid 4-3-3/4-4-2 diamond formation.

Overall strategy:
My formation allows me to overload opposition's box at times, while still being pretty solid on the counter. Apart from my scary attacking trio, I have a few players in deeper positions that are famous for their goalscoring contribution - Passarella (only Koeman surpassed him as the world's top scoring defender), Ballack, Enrique - not to mention Kaltz and Cabrini (top scoring defender for Italian NT). The key point of every defence is its organization - and it's impossible to defend rationally against a incredibly determinate horde, just look how Bayern collapsed in 1999 after Fergie subbed on 2 additional forwards and pushed Schmeichel forward. My backline can form a competent three, four and five man defence, so I can spare a few of them to go forward.

Spoiler: Attack

First of all - there all are immensely prolific goalscorers, who all scored around goal per game during their peak years.
Hidegkuti is playing in his NT role - probably the most interesting tactical innovation of that great Magyar team. He is called the first false-9 in the football history - a deep-lying forward, who is equally capable of supporting the strikers from behind or to lead the line himself. He was devastating in this role - he scored a hat-trick in the match of the century. I wanted to pay an homage to him and tried to replicate that attacking movement in my front three.

Ibrahimovic is a big striker - very agile and mobile for his size - he is a nominal focal point of my attack, but I have several of those. Like Kocsis, he would provide physical presence in the box, but he is, like Sven always says, a very complete player - so it won't be a problem for him to move back or to draw the defenders away from Hidegkuti. He also had a memorable England moment

Kubala, arguably the best player on the pitch, is doing what he did best - roaming all around the front, scoring, assisting and helping to keep the ball.

Spoiler: Midfield

In the pivoting role I have Xabi Alonso, one of the modern greats, who proved himself in a dozen different systems and won almost everything, while being crucial part of his teams organization. Nicknamed "The Magneto", he will orchestrate the game from the back, while being responsible for the shape of teams defence. I'm lucky to have such an intelligent player doing this.


Luis Enrique and Ballack are two of your typical box-to-boxes - physical, vocal, determined, skillful - the whole package, really. There is nothing special about their roles.

Spoiler: Defence

As I stated earlier, I have a very fluid and competent backline. Buchwald (nicknamed "Diego" after he successfully marked Maradona out of the 1990 World Cup final) is the only one that have to stay back - Kaltz, Cabrini and Passarella are free to roam forward as long as one of them is staying back - because Alonso is also covering for them.

In the goal I have a relatively unknown keeper, Waldir Peres - though he only once conceded more than one goal in his 27 games for Brazil (not known for their defending) and a winner of Bola de Ouro in 1975 (the best player in the league) - just take a look at his competition: Zico, Falcao, Figeroa, Nelinho, Cerezo...

Key points:
Viva has a great team, but he is a little rigid defensively. While his fullbacks are busy, he will only have Vierchowod, Ferrara and Dunga to track my attacking trinity - and nor Keane, nor Scholes, as much as I adore them, don't have the discipline (not determination, mind you) to track down late runs of Passarella, Ballack and Enrique - which are probably my easiest routes to the goal.

The one to watch:

Spoiler: Laszlo Kubala

In 1999 he was voted as the best player in Barcelona history, no less. Ahead the likes of Cruyff, Laudrup, Stoichkov, Luis Suarez, Kocsis... Camp Nou was built to accommodate everyone who wanted to see him play. Sadly, he ran away from Hungary early and so we haven't seen him playing for their Golden team - I'm not sure that Puskas would've been their main star if they were to play together.

He was a mix between George Best and Eric Cantona - a molly-coddled drunk who always was the best player on the pitch and an inspirational leader. After his most productive season, where he scored 26 goals in only 19 league games (Barcelona won incredible 5 cups this season), he was diagnosed with tuberculosis. Nobody expected him to make it back to football - but he did, and he was the catalyst that led struggling Barca from 4th place to their second league title in a row (sounds familiar, right?)

His game was based on finesse as much as fitness; all drag backs and flicks, running on his toes, protecting the ball, drawing players in and then slipping beyond them. He could do thing that no one had ever seen before. Even his penalties were different, paradinha pause included - he only ever missed one, something he put down to his "psychological study of opposition goalkeepers".

Here is the intake of Luis Suarez - one of the best players in Spain history: "No one had seen anyone curl a ball over the wall before. Kubala did it. He was extraordinary player who brought to Spain a series of innovative improvements and perfections. He united physical power and exceptional technique. Defenders were sucked toward him and then he protected the ball brilliantly. They tried to push him over but just fell over themselves. Among the players I've seen, and I've seen a lot, he is the best of all time".

vs

 

[Balu]

Team VivaJanuzaj​

Tactics:

Basic tactic - A very complete all round team built to improve the gung-ho 4-4-2 around Keane-Scholes. When United played 4-4-2 with Keane and Scholes, they normally had to curb their attacking runs and passing due to fear of being pulled out of position, we wanted to help them maintain the freedom to roam to the upper third of the pitch. How? Dunga, who is a DM who has ball abilities as well as marking abilities will sit more comfortably at the back of the midfield, allowing Keane to play the box-to-box role more comfortably, knowing he's got an extra man behind him, and letting younger Scholes burst into the box and dictating the play like he knows.​

The idea is to play direct football, using quick counters through the wings and into the box for Crespo/Scholes to finish it up.
The wings are better than what United used to have, Figo-Nedved is an improvement for Beckham-Giggs, with both of them very capable of scoring as well as playmaking alongside Scholes.
When attacking, Zambrotta will be the one overlapping and aiding the attack while Thomas Berthold, the WC winning RB with West Germany, who is known for his defensive abilities more than his offensive ones, will stay back. Nedved and Zambrotta will overload the LW and Nedved will often cut inside, while Figo will have the RW as his domain to bully any LB put against him.
Route to goal - Our routes to goal are very diverse, we've got either Figo/Nedved cooperating with Scholes to put a through ball to Crespo's immense movement off the ball, a cut inside from either winger with both having great scoring threat(more than 100 career goals each), a cross from either winger/Zambrotta to a very aerially capable Crespo and bursting in-Scholes, or a classic Scholes' long shot.
When defending - We've got a very strong defending unit, Ferrara-Vierchowod is a top class CB pairing. When Ciro Ferrara had Montero as his partner he thrived, and Vierchowod is a very upgraded Montero, a classic stopper who used to dive into challenges and execute them perfectly, both used to mark out some of the best players in the game in the 80-90's Seria A. These two, will be protected from midfield by Dunga and Keane. Dunga will play the DM role and although he was at his best with Mauro Silva next to him, Dunga doesn't need another DM to be an excellent protection to the defensive line, Keane will help him with his incredible defensive abilities and together, with Scholes assistance is a whole lot of protection.
On the wings, we've got Berthold, a WC winning RB known for his defending, who won't need too much assistance as he proved playing in Germany's 5-3-2 dominating the RB role without any winger's assistance, allowing Figo to stay forward. Zambrotta on the other hand, will be given more freedom to roam forward, but with a work-horse like Nedved there, and the cover from midfield and CBs I'm not concerned to get caught on the left side.
Proven partnerships - In defense - Our entire defensive line and keeper speak Italian. We've got CL winning trio of Peruzzi-Ferrara-Vierchowod who won the 1996 CL together. Zambrotta-Ferrara also had 6 years together in Juventus' backline. Even Berthold had it's time in Italy playing for Roma & Verona, so he'll fit in comfortably.
In Attack - We've got the obvious known partnership of Keane-Scholes, and moreover, we've got the partnership of Crespo-Nedved which was superb in their time in Lazio leading them to 3rd position. Nedved made Crespo score so much, as Crespo never regained the same goalscoring record as he did when he had Nedved providing for him.
The opponent - harms successfully formed a very strong defense with Passarella Buchwold and Cabrini, and even though Kaltz isn't too shabby, I see my combination of Nedved-Zambrotta getting the better of him often. Passarella will have his hands full juggling between Crespo and covering for Cabrini(who like to roam) and facing Figo. With the amount of good midfielders in hand, harms' midfield might be stronger in possession, but if I can deny Hidegkuti & Ballack from getting enough space using a very tight defensive midfield of Keane-Dunga, I can see Ibrahimovic & Kubala not getting enough balls to effect the game. Vierchowod is the perfect CB to defend against Kubala with his speed and agility and I can see my defense squeezing in with Berthold and denying them of space to influence the game.

Good luck @harms and @VivaJanuzaj

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

First of all, good luck @harms
Now, the first thing that pops in mind here is the lack of defensive cover in every part of the pitch:
His midfield provides little cover as Xabi is his most defensive one and he has no one who has the ability to press Scholes enough, and certainly no one to cover his runs inside the box.
His full backs are given freedom to roam forward yet they don't have wingers to cover from them, and with Nedved-Figo it's suicide
Even Passarella is given the the freedom to join the attacks, even though there's no need for that with Xabi playing as the DLP, and that might leave Buchwald alone against Crespo.
I like my odds of outscoring the oppositiob

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Key points:
Viva has a great team, but he is a little rigid defensively. While his fullbacks are busy, he will only have Vierchowod, Ferrara and Dunga to track my attacking trinity - and nor Keane, nor Scholes, as much as I adore them, don't have the discipline (not determination, mind you) to track down late runs of Passarella, Ballack and Enrique - which are probably my easiest routes to the goal.

This is the biggest part of Harms' tactics that bothers me. Keane and Scholes had the discipline to stand as a two men midfield and track down late runs from plenty of midfielders at times, yet now that they have Dunga as an extra cover they won't have the discipline to do that? I can't agree with that, if anything, Keane now has more freedom to defend smartly and help Dunga while allowing Scholes to take advantage of these late runs with unstoppable counters via my incredible pace at the front four(Scholes-Nedved-Figo-Crespo).

I don't think Passarella Cabrini and Kaltz should be given too much freedom to roam forward, because neither of Harms' nidfielders won't provide half the cover necessary to defend against my attack.

Mind you, that Xabi Alonso never played in such a gung-ho team like Harms', in his prime at Liverpool he had Mascherano next to him, in RM he had Khedira. Yes, both Lucho and Ballack add plenty of energy to his midfield but I think it's a bit excessive trusting them to both attack and overload Dunga-Keane and at the same time help shielding a very offensive defensive line.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Fair points on the fullbacks and Passarella. Seems overly offensive. Or rather, it does seem as though it will be necessary to push Cabrini and Kaltz forward to a fair degree here, given the rather narrow assembly up front. And, obviously, if you don't have 'em pushing up, they look redundant all of a sudden (as in, better field less offensive players to begin with). Means a degree of risk taking, I'd say. Not suicidal - but yeah, somewhat risky.

Still, they won't all bomb forward at the same time.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Fair points on the fullbacks and Passarella. Seems overly offensive. Or rather, it does seem as though it will be necessary to push Cabrini and Kaltz forward to a fair degree here, given the rather narrow assembly up front. And, obviously, if you don't have 'em pushing up, they look redundant all of a sudden (as in, better field less offensive players to begin with). Means a degree of risk taking, I'd say. Not suicidal - but yeah, somewhat risky.

Still, they won't all bomb forward at the same time.

Yeah of course they won't, but let's assume(even though the information suggests otherwise) that only Cabrini roams forward, you still get a counter attack where Figo facing Passarella alone, Kaltz against Nedved(alone), Crespo alone with Buchwald and Xabi is the only one to press Scholes. I'd fancy any one of my attacker in this situation, and that's just assuming we've got one player bombing forward and not all of them.
Anyway I'll stop posting until harms arrive

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Aye, like I said - it involves an element of risk. But then again playing with offensive fullbacks always does - and his fullbacks are excellent. They won't be losing the ball all the time and they're both very adept at tracking back fast if and when an attack breaks down.

The situation you describe could certainly arise during the match, though. And if/when it does, you'll be very dangerous. It could be regarded as a calculated sort of risk, though - rather than recklessness, I mean.

 

[antohan]

How many times do I need to say Passarella in a four shouldn't be played next to Roberto Carlos/Cabrini types?

Figo will have this sown up by halftime.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

How many times do I need to say Passarella in a four shouldn't be played next to Roberto Carlos/Cabrini types?

Figo will have this sown up by halftime.

I've been waiting for that post, Cabrini wasn't bad at defending at all, but allowing him, and/or Passarella forward with Figo there is suicidale

 

[Gio]

It looks like Harms is missing a defender here while I'm not convinced he needs Kubala, Ibra and Hidedgkuti up top. So much of his playmaking and creativity is going to come from his back five but it doesn't look that those creative players have the supporting framework they need to shine.

 

[MDFC Manager]

Which version of Scholes are you playing? They one from 99 or the the one from 2008?

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Which version of Scholes are you playing? They one from 99 or the the one from 2008?

I said the early days' Scholes who loved coming into the box and was more of an attacking CM than a deep lying playmaker

 

[Ish]

A midfield of Keane/Scholes on a United board? hahahaha, rightly or wrongly, poor harms has little chance.

 

[Balu]

I actually like harms' team. It's obviously a bit flawed and gung-ho, but I can see it playing beautiful attacking football and keeping possession incredibly well. There's so much to like about it going forward, Hidegkuti knitting all those playmakers together like he did for Hungary, Kaltz finding Ballack's head with a cross, not entirely sure about Ibra's role here, but then, I never fully understood how to use Ibra best, so I can ignore it.

I'm also pretty sure as usual Alonso's defensive contribution gets a bit underrated.

Mind you, that Xabi Alonso never played in such a gung-ho team like Harms', in his prime at Liverpool he had Mascherano next to him, in RM he had Khedira. Yes, both Lucho and Ballack add plenty of energy to his midfield but I think it's a bit excessive trusting them to both attack and overload Dunga-Keane and at the same time help shielding a very offensive defensive line.

I'd rather have one of Lucho or Ballack help out in defense than Khedira to be honest. Both together can offer a lot more protection than what Alonso got from Özil/Khedira and just as much as he had with Modric/Di Maria last year in the CL.


Still, can't see harms winning it. Viva's team is just as exciting without the flaws. Unlucky for harms that he has to play such a great team in the first round, there's a lot of potential to improve on in his side.

 

[Physiocrat]

Not sure how Hidegkuti and Ibra will work. Ibra will want to come deep and have a role in the build up which is what Hidegkuti will want to do. I think Harms midfield three are complementary and work well. Defence looks a bit porous though.

I really like Viva's team- an excellent blend of hardwork and creativity although I'd prefer a goalscoring wideforward to Nedved in this set-up but Scholes makes up for that. Dunga-Keane-Scholes is brilliant. In fact I prefer Dunga to Mauro Silva as he can more the ball much better and with Keane Silva's defensive ability is necessary.

I reckon Viva will win this 3-1.

 

[Balu]

Not sure how Hidegkuti and Ibra will work. Ibra will want to come deep and have a role in the build up which is what Hidegkuti will want to do. I think Harms midfield three are complementary and work well. Defence looks a bit porous though.

I don't really mind that with Hidegkuti, he was in a similar situation, when he played for Hungary and managed to make it work. He's such a smart player, constantly on the move, making himself available to connect attacks or drags defender out of the way. He can finish and create, but doesn't need to be the main man, is happy to play the easy pass and let all the others around him shine.

 

[antohan]

Not sure how Hidegkuti and Ibra will work.

Same here. Similar to Balu, I don't quite know how to play Ibra, although I suspect it is simply a case that he isn't good enough to bother build a team around. Big fish for small ponds I believe, which isn't what draft sides are. But no, can't see how it works with Hidegkuti at all.

It all went wrong somewhere, not sure where TBH. By the last round I was sitting there trying to work him out and thinking he would go for Ruggeri or someone else who would complete a formidable defence with two of the best attacking fullbacks/wingbacks in the draft making up for the lack of width further upfront. Still, if that were the case I couldn't understand how he could deploy Hidegkuti and Kubala upfront effectively. Inidividually, great players, but the wingback setup didn't look right for them. It looked like his backline, midfield and strike partners all belonged in different setups and I suppose the same can be said of how it is right now.

 

[antohan]

I don't really mind that with Hidegkuti, he was in a similar situation, when he played for Hungary and managed to make it work. He's such a smart player, constantly on the move, making himself available to connect attacks or drags defender out of the way. He can finish and create, but doesn't need to be the main man, is happy to play the easy pass and let all the others around him shine.

I don't think his concern (or mine) was Hidegkuti but whether Ibra let's him do that.

"All the others around him" being key for me, I think if you go with him you need the right (and enough) others around him.

 

[Physiocrat]

Fair enough. I just don't like Ibra with someone behind him as it'll in general get in his way. Ibra should play as a 10/second-striker or as a sole striker in a 4-3-3 with the pivot in front of the defence.

 

[Balu]

I don't think his concern (or mine) was Hidegkuti but whether Ibra let's him do that.

"All the others around him" being key for me, I think if you go with him you need the right (and enough) others around him.

Would he really care that much? If Ibra drops deep, Hidegkuti just takes over the striker position and is happy. He played as a center forward for most of his club career after all, scored goals for fun when winning league titles against Honved and won the Mitropa-Cup without the help of all the other Hungarian stars.

 

[Physiocrat]

To get the best out of Ibra I'd go for a line-up like this:

-------------Ibra-------
CR7---------------------Figo---
-------Davids--Ballack
--------------Pirlo-------------
R. Carlos-Kohler-T.Silva-J. Zanetti

or:

---------Ibra---Romario---------
Giggs--Sammer--Scholes--Figo
Maldini--Stam---Nesta--J. Zanetti

In the first one Ibra can drop deep with CR7 cutting in and being overlapped by R.Carlos with Figo providing the width on the right.

In the second Ibra can drop deep but still have a proper striker there with a classic 442 with wingers.

Anyone one want to try to upgrade these types of line-ups to include more GOATS? I've got to go and teach now

 

[antohan]

Would he really care that much? If Ibra drops deep, Hidegkuti just takes over the striker position and is happy. He played as a center forward for most of his club career after all, scored goals for fun when winning league titles against Honved and won the Mitropa-Cup without the help of all the other Hungarian stars.

As said, nothing to do with Hidegkuti, I just have a visceral aversion to uberegotistic players and how they affect the performance of the selfless/team-oriented ones, particularly when the latter are actually better players. feck Ibra, basically.

I would have much rather seen a Raúl/Giggs playing from the left with Hidegkuti as false 9 and Kubala coming in from the right. I would still have a feeling a setup with wingers or wide midfielders was more suitable, mind. As I said, it's like the different lines/banks of players don't belong together. That defence has 3+WB written all over it, but I would question if that midfield trio with a pivot works with it, certainly not with those forwards, and you wouldn't want the pivot with Passarella as libero. Then Ballack and Lucho (in particular) would benefit from quick transitions and a forward line that stretches the defence to create the gaps for them to attack... but it's a rather narrow frontline.

It's all over the shop if you ask me. Don't mean to knock harms at all here, I love some of his players and his write-ups on them, but it just didn't come together at all IMO.

 

[NM]

This this will be much closer than the scoreline suggests in real life, but Keane and Scholes on a united board means Viva is riding this to the final IMO

 

[harms]

It's meaningless to argue here - the game is long gone and, to be fair, rightly so - I lost a plot a little and the last criteria fecked me good
A fair point about me being gung-ho attacking, yet I don't think that I was that suicidal - yet, you have to point it out in those drafts, and Viva did.

Good luck going forward @VivaJanuzaj

About Ibra-Hidegkuti-Kubala - I really think that this isn't that far away from Kocsis-Hidegkuti-Puskas - with Kubala in his goalscoring mode. I would've preferred Erico instead of Ibra in this team, but, well...

On the point of the third defender - Alonso is doing almost the same amazingly well now. I was building my side with Weiner in mind as the third center-back, but decided to go all gung-ho.

I'm hoping that someone will take Kubala and Hidegkuti from my hands, I'm really rooting for those guys, so brilliant and so underappreciated.

 

[harms]

This this will be much closer than the scoreline suggests in real life, but Keane and Scholes on a united board means Viva is riding this to the final IMO

No offence to Viva, but I don't see it yet - even if he has a great foundation to built on. Cutch and you are better at the moment - and if Edgar goes through, he can transform his side into the really brilliant one in the blink of an eye.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Damn, I was expecting this to be a close one. I do see the arguments regarding Harms being gung ho, but I also felt the sheer quality he had would cancel alot of that out. I'm personally pretty high on his team due to his brilliant description of Hidegkuti and Alonso's recent renaissance. There's a nice balance to Viva's team though and no shortage of individual quality either.

Regarding Ibra, has he become a fantasy draft 'anti-Vieri'? I'm just thinking about the discussion we had on Vieri yesterday, and how he's a vote-winning fit in all sorts of teams. Gio describes it well:

Agree with what has been said so far. Vieri is a good call for drafts insofar as he can do the big-man-up-front role, but equally can do the play-off-the-shoulder job as well. That way he can exploit either a lack of pace or a lack of strong aerial ability, and few draft defences nail both. Other forwards, even better ones, can be more singular in their threat and feasibly stopped by a defender exceptionally strong in a specific set of attributes.

Now personally I'm a big Bobo fan, but surely Ibra is just as good and accomplished a player. Its one of those strange anomalies that one is a proven draft winner, and the other is a multiple time feck up

 

[sajeev]

@harms has a really great team that i love. i really think they will win even against Viva's very impressive side. pity others don't think that way

 

[antohan]

About Ibra-Hidegkuti-Kubala - I really think that this isn't that far away from Kocsis-Hidegkuti-Puskas - with Kubala in his goalscoring mode. I would've preferred Erico instead of Ibra in this team, but, well...

Now we are talking! Yep, Erico would have made a wonderful Kocsis impersonation, and I buy Kubala as Puskas. It's just 1) I don't buy Ibrahimovic in that frontline, 2) the rest of the setup is completely different to the one those three thrived in, I suppose you could argue Kaltz-Cabrini wouldn't actuallly be far off Hungary's wingforwards, seeing as they were required to track back, but for that I needed that third defender and that would mean no pivot IMO.

On the point of the third defender - Alonso is doing almost the same amazingly well now.

But you don't need Alonso to drop back, you want Passarella to do his job, which means there's no need for the pivot there (no slight on Alonso, play him in midfield if you will, it's just you don't need a pivot with Daniel around so long as you provide the platform for him and both WBs to thrive, i.e. two CBs).

 

[antohan]

Now personally I'm a big Bobo fan, but surely Ibra is just as good and accomplished a player. Its one of those strange anomalies that one is a proven draft winner, and the other is a multiple time feck up

Style differences aside, I don't think it's talent but temperament and team-orientation that sets Vieri apart. You don't need to build teams around Vieri, he pretty much slots in easily into teams built around other stars, that simply isn't the case with Zlatan.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Style differences aside, I don't think it's talent but temperament and team-orientation that sets Vieri apart. You don't need to build teams around Vieri, he pretty much slots in easily into teams built around other stars, that simply isn't the case with Zlatan.

Aye, its easy to see how its panned out the way it has for Ibra/Vieri in the drafts, but at this stage I'd love to see a change in fortune for Zlatan. He's too good to be a perpetual first round loser.

 

[harms]

Now we are talking! Yep, Erico would have made a wonderful Kocsis impersonation, and I buy Kubala as Puskas. It's just 1) I don't buy Ibrahimovic in that frontline, 2) the rest of the setup is completely different to the one those three thrived in, I suppose you could argue Kaltz-Cabrini wouldn't actuallly be far off Hungary's wingforwards, seeing as they were required to track back, but for that I needed that third defender and that would mean no pivot IMO.



But you don't need Alonso to drop back, you want Passarella to do his job, which means there's no need for the pivot there (no slight on Alonso, play him in midfield if you will, it's just you don't need a pivot with Daniel around so long as you provide the platform for him and both WBs to thrive, i.e. two CBs).

Agree on Alonso point - I actually regretted picking him, as much as I love the guy (and I do, I even liked him in Liverpool, which is amazing and unprecedented) - he isn't a good fit to Passarella.

And, again, agree on Ibra - he looks fine as Erico replacement, but when you look at the beginning of the chain, he and Kocsis aren't very much alike.

With all those drafting flaws I decided to try and just out score him - and I still believe that I can - Ballack, Passarella, Enrique and my forward trio running at Kaltz bananas, with Cabrini - Alonso - Buchwald in a three-man high-line defense... You can not defend against that. Feck the balance, overload is the way to go

Btw, what do you think if Weiner were to replace Alonso? He was a great defender, actually, I looked him up. Very composed.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

I'm really keen on hearing what do you guys make of Berthold here, I've never seen him appear in any draft before but after researching a bit about him he doesn't strike me as a weakness whatsoever. The thing is, I'm not so sure he's the first position I might want to upgrade next round and the zero criticism about him at this match(which I don't think would've been deserved) just made my feelings stronger. What do you guys think about him?

I'll just tag a few regular posters.. @antohan @Balu @NM @Pat_Mustard @Gio

 

[antohan]

Btw, what do you think if Weiner were to replace Alonso? He was a great defender, actually, I looked him up. Very composed.

The only reason I picked him as a sheep was:

1) Balu was getting a bit hysterical about how we overruled him on allowing MJJ to pick again instead of his failed Deschamps pick. He doesn't like the bad cop job, and it was a third sheep so there was serious concern of losing an entire team. Ergo, we had to pick from within the sides even when I thought Iuliano was lightyears away from being a sheep, thus you had to get a Bayern guy.

2) A quick look at that Bayern side produced a guy called Weiner, it had to be, it was written in the stars. Yep, he is a good enough defender and would be unlikely to have any trouble adapting to a back five with wingbacks, it was pretty popular in Germany.

You lose Alonso, which is a shame, but that really lets you go gung-ho a lot more safely IMO. Push the wingbacks way up the pitch, Passarella likewise through the middle with Ballack and Lucho... Not sure you would win, but sure as feck it would be an open back-and-forth nail-biter.

 

[antohan]

I'm really keen on hearing what do you guys make of Berthold here, I've never seen him appear in any draft before but after researching a bit about him he doesn't strike me as a weakness whatsoever. The thing is, I'm not so sure he's the first position I might want to upgrade next round and the zero criticism about him at this match(which I don't think would've been deserved) just made my feelings stronger. What do you guys think about him?

I'll just tag a few regular posters.. @antohan @Balu @NM @Pat_Mustard @Gio

Solid RB. I actually have him in my excel of players, just never really need to pick him and put up with the aggro of trying to sell a new player. He is very much the sort of RB I suggested you get while keeping Zambrotta left. With the awesome LBs freed up in this round, I would get one of those to replace Zambrotta instead. Dunno, thing with Zambrotta is he is just "there". Good player sure, but doesn't send my pulse racing or enter any equations of how the phases of play may pan out in the same way as a Facchetti, Cabrini or Carlos does. I can't think of a RB upgrade of similar significance.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Now personally I'm a big Bobo fan, but surely Ibra is just as good and accomplished a player. Its one of those strange anomalies that one is a proven draft winner, and the other is a multiple time feck up

He's just a victim of a paradox. The people who haven't watched him enough stick by their old view of him that he was a flashy CL bottler who failed for Barcelona. As a very small percentage actually follows Ligue 1, PSG or the Swedish NT on this board it means he's extremely underrated.

When you lay out the facts that he scored 23 goals in 24 matches for Sweden - which is the best in the world in that period I believe - they reject it with "Well anybody can score goals if they are the big star in a small team". Which is retarded, as the stars for smaller teams nearly never win any top scorer awards.

Then you bring out the fact that he scored and assisted as much as Messi last year, in the same amount of matches but had a better track record in the CL. Then they say the French league is crap so it doesn't count because he plays in a team that is very superior in its league so he is bound to score goals there.

Then they say "anybody can score goals in the CL it doesn't mean anything". If you go to France or Italy the view is of course very different as they've seen him on a week to week basis but in England it is more important that you score a bicycle kick in a friendly than that you 10 goals in 7 matches in the CL which is up there as one of the best goalscoring ratios in the history of the CL - and you score 9 out of 11 for a trash NT - while being the top scorer in the league.

The more impressive when you realize that Zlatan isn't primarily a goalscorer but a playmaker, and always had issues scoring goals even if his general play and passing was world class.

 

[antohan]

He's just a victim of a paradox. The people who haven't watched him enough stick by their old view of him that he was a flashy CL bottler who failed for Barcelona. As a very small percentage actually follows Ligue 1, PSG or the Swedish NT on this board it means he's extremely underrated.

When you lay out the facts that he scored 23 goals in 24 matches for Sweden - which is the best in the world in that period I believe - they reject it with "Well anybody can score goals if they are the big star in a small team". Which is retarded, as the stars for smaller teams nearly never win any top scorer awards.

Then you bring out the fact that he scored and assisted as much as Messi last year, in the same amount of matches but had a better track record in the CL. Then they say the French league is crap so it doesn't count because he plays in a team that is very superior in its league so he is bound to score goals there.

Then they say "anybody can score goals in the CL it doesn't mean anything". If you go to France or Italy the view is of course very different as they've seen him on a week to week basis but in England it is more important that you score a bicycle kick in a friendly than that you 10 goals in 7 matches in the CL which is up there as one of the best goalscoring ratios in the history of the CL - and you score 9 out of 11 for a trash NT - while being the top scorer in the league.

The more impressive when you realize that Zlatan isn't primarily a goalscorer but a playmaker, and always had issues scoring goals even if his general play and passing was world class.

Well, I won't exactly stand by every one of those points, he is clearly one of the most talented players around these days (Top 5 this decade I'd say), but I do subscribe to many of those points re: his value and impact in a draft.

1) He performs in teams built around him.
2) Whenever a team has not been built around him his performance levels weren't the same.
3) Often enough, the performance of other teammates suffers as a result of having to allow for him.

In the context of an all-time draft it's too much baggage and the opportunity cost of fielding him and building a team around him simply doesn't stack up.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I'm really keen on hearing what do you guys make of Berthold here, I've never seen him appear in any draft before but after researching a bit about him he doesn't strike me as a weakness whatsoever. The thing is, I'm not so sure he's the first position I might want to upgrade next round and the zero criticism about him at this match(which I don't think would've been deserved) just made my feelings stronger. What do you guys think about him?

I'll just tag a few regular posters.. @antohan @Balu @NM @Pat_Mustard @Gio

Honestly, I don't really remember many specifics about him, just that he seemed to have been around forever when I was growing up and that he seemed to be another in a long line of very solid and dependable German defenders. I'll be interested to read what Balu has to say about him as he'll remember him much better than me, but my initial thought on seeing him was that he was a good, reliable pick.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

He's just a victim of a paradox. The people who haven't watched him enough stick by their old view of him that he was a flashy CL bottler who failed for Barcelona. As a very small percentage actually follows Ligue 1, PSG or the Swedish NT on this board it means he's extremely underrated.

When you lay out the facts that he scored 23 goals in 24 matches for Sweden - which is the best in the world in that period I believe - they reject it with "Well anybody can score goals if they are the big star in a small team". Which is retarded, as the stars for smaller teams nearly never win any top scorer awards.

Then you bring out the fact that he scored and assisted as much as Messi last year, in the same amount of matches but had a better track record in the CL. Then they say the French league is crap so it doesn't count because he plays in a team that is very superior in its league so he is bound to score goals there.

Then they say "anybody can score goals in the CL it doesn't mean anything". If you go to France or Italy the view is of course very different as they've seen him on a week to week basis but in England it is more important that you score a bicycle kick in a friendly than that you 10 goals in 7 matches in the CL which is up there as one of the best goalscoring ratios in the history of the CL - and you score 9 out of 11 for a trash NT - while being the top scorer in the league.

The more impressive when you realize that Zlatan isn't primarily a goalscorer but a playmaker, and always had issues scoring goals even if his general play and passing was world class.

Great post mate, and its hard to find much to disagree with. I guess his weakness in a draft context is who do you surround him with that's good enough to win votes, but won't create a tactical feck up. Its certainly do-able in any post 2000 and obviously post-2010 drafts, but after the reception he's received so far it'll take a committed manager to base a team around that.

 

[crappycraperson]

Great team Viva, hope you get the right re-reinforcements this time because you have a real shot at winning this IMO

 

[Gio]

He's just a victim of a paradox. The people who haven't watched him enough stick by their old view of him that he was a flashy CL bottler who failed for Barcelona. As a very small percentage actually follows Ligue 1, PSG or the Swedish NT on this board it means he's extremely underrated.

When you lay out the facts that he scored 23 goals in 24 matches for Sweden - which is the best in the world in that period I believe - they reject it with "Well anybody can score goals if they are the big star in a small team". Which is retarded, as the stars for smaller teams nearly never win any top scorer awards.

Then you bring out the fact that he scored and assisted as much as Messi last year, in the same amount of matches but had a better track record in the CL. Then they say the French league is crap so it doesn't count because he plays in a team that is very superior in its league so he is bound to score goals there.

Then they say "anybody can score goals in the CL it doesn't mean anything". If you go to France or Italy the view is of course very different as they've seen him on a week to week basis but in England it is more important that you score a bicycle kick in a friendly than that you 10 goals in 7 matches in the CL which is up there as one of the best goalscoring ratios in the history of the CL - and you score 9 out of 11 for a trash NT - while being the top scorer in the league.

The more impressive when you realize that Zlatan isn't primarily a goalscorer but a playmaker, and always had issues scoring goals even if his general play and passing was world class.

Aye, good post. His quality's not in question as far as I'm concerned. Ego and fit are seperate issues though. Not insurmountable ones as it's simply about building the right set-up and it's no different from other egomaniacs like Romario, Stoichkov, Hagi, Maradona, Cruyff, Cristiano, Riquelme, etc. He suffers somewhat in a draft context because, with most teams playing a single centre forward, that role is prized and pivotal in bringing the best out of others. And often it's about getting the best out of an even more talented second striker or no10 and others like Crespo, Elkjaer, Weah, Klinsmann can be better foils in that respect.