Sheep draft - Stobzilla vs kps88

Who would win based on player peak?


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Balu

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Team Stobzilla

Approach & System
The team will be quite flexible, fluid, and free in their approach. We will look to control the possession and game and look to score goals from all possible avenues.

Fluidity and freedom in movement + energy

When we're on possession, players' positions won't be fixed into their areas. There will be lots of movement, rotation, and fluidity in the team. Expect Laudrup to move laterally and vertically, Hatzi to cut in and get involved in the middle, Careca to drift to the right, Robben to cut in, one of Ince or Cerezo to drift forward, and Demyanenko/Branko to push up. If needed, Charles can also push up and get involved on the attack with Cerezo staying back to fill in for him, adding height and world class finishing to the attack. Blanc can also carry the ball forward with his great dribbling and composure on the ball, and his passing range and accuracy means that he can also distribute the ball and play players into dangerous areas. Most of our players are hard working with Cerezo and Ince providing energy, efficiency, and solidity to the midfield, Branko and Demyanenko going up and down the pitch for the whole match, Robben pressing high up the pitch, and Careca always looking to stretch the defence.

Solid defence with great readers of the game

The defence consists of players who know how to defend first and foremost. Charles and Blanc are proven, accomplished, solid, and physically strong defenders. Both are great in the air, reading the game, anticipating moves, and stopping attacks. Demyanenko was a solid, fast full back who can easily deal with the pacy players that kps can offer, and Branko earned the respect and admiration of Sir Stanley Matthews. 'Nuff said.
In midfield, Cerezo and Ince offer great anticipation, reading of the game, aggression, and energy in their game. Cerezo, in particular, was a great partner for Falcao in midfield and allowed him and the rest of Brazil to play their joga bonito in the 1982 World Cup. If kps ever gets past this solid defence, then there's nothing to worry about with Kahn protecting the goal. His presence, reflexes, and shot-stopping make him a formidable obstacle to overcome.

Goalscorers everywhere

We have many routes to goal with this team. We can create chances through the middle, left, and right, and we are also likely to score from set pieces. Branko, Demya, Robben and Hatzi can all deliver dangerous balls from wide areas with their precise crosses into the box. Laudrup, Hatzi, and Ince can create chances through the middle with precise through passes, lobs, and combination plays. Cerezo and Laudrup can can play accurate diagonals to Robben and Hatzi, leaving them 1 vs. 1 with their opposing marker and stretching kps' defence.
Multiple goalscorers in our team mean that we won't need to rely on a couple of players to get us goals. Charles and Blanc are goal threats in the box. Demyanenko can score goals cutting in to his right foot. Robben is a proven goalscorer from the right side, scoring goals regularly for Bayern Munich. Careca is a specialist at scoring from angled shots, but he an also score from headers and inside the box in general. He was also a great performer at the 1986 World Cup, scoring 5 goals and establishing himself as a world class forward, thus sealing the move to Maradona's Napoli. Ince can score from late runs into the box and from outside the box. Since the 1992/93 season, he's scored 5+ goals per season from central midfield. Even as a defensive midfielder, Cerezo was a goal threat with his late runs into the box, particularly for Sampdoria. I have yet to mention Laudrup as well, who, whilst unselfish on the attack, still possessed an accurate shot and could score goals when needed.

World class dribblers

If kps looks to suffocate the team, we have three great dribblers in Hatzipanagis, Laudrup, and Robben on the attack, all of who can beat their men with their quickness, agility, and close control. Demyanenko has the pace to get past players, and Branko has great technique on the ball. Hatzipanagis' feet are like magnets when he dribbles with the ball, and the respect he shows for the football is demonstrated with his dribbling where he provides the perfect touches on the ball to keep it under his control. Laudrup is well-known for the "Laudrup dribble", and the balance, poise, and control of the football made him known as one of the best dribblers ever. Robben, even with his predictable cut-ins, frequently gets past his man and onto his left foot, and his pace and quickness makes him tough to deal with even in 2-on-1's.
 

Balu

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Spotlight focus

Toninho Cerezo

Toninho Cerezo
5th of July 1982 Brazil lost 2-3 to Italy in A tragédia do Sarriá when the jogo bonito died. A line-up that included Sócrates, Zico and Falcão could not break down an organized Azzurri. In the match, Paolo Rossi’s thunderous second goal came from an intercepted pass from Toninho Cerezo, a pass for which he was harshly criticized.

Born Antônio Carlos Cerezo in 1955 in Belo Horizonte, at 17 years old Toninho began an eleven year spell at Atlético Mineiro that brought seven Campeonato Mineiro titles as well as two Golden and one Silver Ball trophies and his first contact with Telê Santana who was to be influential throughout his career.

During this time the rangy Toninho (he was once described “as long as a day without coffee”), had developed into a fine defensive midfielder, not only strong in the tackle, but energetic, tactically aware and with a fine range of passing. His performance for Mineiro had brought him to A Seleção in 1977. Cerezo would go on to earn 57 caps for Brazil over the next eight years appearing at both the 1978 and 1982 World Cups and be a regular under Santana until injury forced his cut from the 1986 squad.

His performances led AS Roma to pay a reported $10million for him in 1983 – a substantial amount then for a defensive midfielder. Toninho would stay for three years helping i Giallorossi to two Coppa Italia titles the second in 1986 against a Sampdoria team he was joining a few week later.

The move to i Blucerchiati brought more success – the Coppa Italia in 1988 and 89; a UEFA Cup Winners Cup and Sampdoria’s sole Scudetto in the 1990-1 season. Age and injuries may have been catching up but when Sampdoria reached the European Cup Final in 1992 their opponents – Barcelona – thought enough of the old man (he was 37 by then) to put one of their brightest stars – a certain Pep Guardiola – to mark him.

The summer after that final Santana came calling again and Cerezo joined São Paulo. More triumph followed over the next two years including a Campeonato Paulista and a Copa Libertadores. São Paulo had already won the 1992 Intercontinental Cup when in 1993 they faced AC Milan with a chance to become only the fourth team to win the title back to back.

This was the Milan of Baresi and Maldini who would win the Scudetto the coming season conceding just 15 goals. The 38 year old Toninho excelled. A first time cross field pass to a young Cafu to set up the first, followed by a timed run to score the second at the back post himself and capped off with a defense splitting pass for the third. São Paulo won 3-2.

Cerezo played a few games over the next few years but injuries and age though continued to catch up and 1997 saw the curtain close on the career of a remarkable player, perhaps fittingly where it had all started – Atlético Mineiro.

Vasilis Hatzipanagis

A 19 year career that brought a modest three trophies and one cap at senior level [in a friendly] may raise the question as to why Hatzipanagis should be considered a great. One look at clips of him dribbling will give the answer. Hatzinpanagis had the hair of Kevin Keegan and the feet of Maradona, fans called him ‘the footballing Nureyev’.

A son of political refugees from the Greek Civil War, Hatzipanagis was born, October 1954 in Taskent in the USSR. He was spotted at the age of 17 and quickly signed by local team FC Pakhtakor. Maturing and improving he helped Pakhtakor to the Soviet First League [2nd Division] title. Strict rules required Vasilis apply for Soviet citizenship and on being granted he soon appeared at U19, U21 and in 1975 qualifiers for the following years Olympics. According to experts by this time Hatzipanagis was considered second as left sided attacker only to Oleg Blokhin.

However, times were changing. The “Reign of Colonels” military dictatorship in Greece had ended in 1974 and the Hatzipanagis family like many exiles headed home. Vasilis signed for Iraklis Thessaloniki FC in 1975 and stayed for 16 years. His first season would see Iraklis win Greek Cup and Vasilis play for Greece in a friendly against Poland. It would be his only appearance for the Ethniki, Fifa ruling that his appearances for the USSR meant he was ineligible to play for Greece. Despite Soviet support for Vasilis, apparent lethargy by the Greek authorities meant the Fifa ruling remained unchallenged.

Vasilis was adored by the Iraklis fans who would pack out the Kaftanzoglio stadium to watch their idol and the Hatzipanagis Era was probably Iraklis most prominent period in modern Greek football. Other, bigger clubs tried to sign Vasilis (a £1.85 million bid from Stuttgart - a figure virtually unheard of at the time) but Iraklis would never negotiate. Vasilis’ contract was said to be heavily in the clubs favour [he actually did win a contract dispute against the club in court but the victory seemed ignored]; the club were also mindful
given their precarious financial position of the impact on the fans of selling their idol. Vasilis would go on to win a Balkan Cup in 1985, but Iraklis highest finish in the league was third and after another 1st round exit in the Uefa Cup in 1990, Vasilis retired.

To watch Vasilis is to marvel. His pace, balance, dribbling, the ability to stop and turn on the proverbial sixpence – all left defenders flailing. The ball really does appear glued to his feet.

As part of Uefa’s Jubilee Celebrations, the Hellenic Football Federation named Vasilis Greece’s Golden Player of the last 50 years. Vasilis whilst appreciative did also say:- “I regret not having been able to wear the Greek national jersey more than once. And I regret not having made a career abroad. I would have liked to play in a better league, to have enjoyed football at that level. If I could turn back the clock, I would do some things differently.”

A victim of circumstance and injustice, Hatzipanagis would arguably have dominated on a much larger stage. It is footballs misfortune he never got the chance.

Cerezo as a goalscoring threat:


Hatzipanagis and his legendary dribbling:


Careca's many goals from the angle + others:


A reminder about Ince and his goalscoring ability:


Oliver Kahn in action:


small tactical change at halftime:




vs


Team kps88

Defense:
Providing the defensive base for my team is the world class Italian trio of Cannavaro, Bergomi and Zoff. All three are defensive legends of the game with unrivaled leadership qualities, experience and a bucket load of trophies. Between the three of them, they should be able to deal with any type of striker they come up against. On either side of the trio are Carboni and Sagnol, who are equally adept at supporting the attack as they are defending. Both have come up against world class wingers in the past and passed the test with flying colours.

Midfield and Attack: The job of Redondo - Tigana is to gain control of midfield, provide cover to the defense and pass it to the wealth of attacking and creative talent ahead of them. Donadoni will provide traditional width while Del Piero will be starting from his favourite inside left role to enable some classic curlers. Gascoigne, Donadoni and Del Piero are all exceptionally technical and creative players who will naturally not just be restricted to their starting positions. They are equally capable of controlling a long pinged pass from Redondo as they are coming deep to collect the ball in a tight spot. I trust them to drift wide/in field accordingly to find pockets of space and produce some mouth-watering combination play.

Having a striker like Eto’o leading the line means the opposition is forced to sit deep to negate his pace. This in turn, leads to more space for the creative players behind him to operate in. Like those behind him, Eto'o is comfortable drifting out wide and working the channels as well. I’m confident with so many intelligent players combining, he will either get chances himself or create space for the likes of Del Piero and Gascoigne to score.
 
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Balu

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I had to cut it in two @Stobzilla , too many characters in all your spoilers, seems like there's a limit for the op :lol:. Good luck to both of you, @kps88 & @Stobzilla
 

mazhar13

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Good luck @kps88. This match should be a treat :).

I love the look of our team, and your team looks great as well. There's quite a perfect balance to both of our sides, and both of our sides are capable of doing so much with threats from almost everywhere. This should be interesting.

Edit: I just can't vote for anyone in this match. If I vote for one, I'm being unfair on the other. I think this match may settle into a draw, anyways, a 0-0, 1-1, or an exciting 2-2.
 
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Stobzilla

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Good luck @kps88. This match should be a treat :).

I love the look of our team, and your team looks great as well. There's quite a perfect balance to both of our sides, and both of our sides are capable of doing so much with threats from almost everywhere. This should be interesting.

Edit: I just can't vote for anyone in this match. If I vote for one, I'm being unfair on the other. I think this match may settle into a draw, anyways, a 0-0, 1-1, or an exciting 2-2.
Thanks for the Geoff Shreeves confidence vote there AM. *facepalm*
 

VivaJanuzaj

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This is incredibly close. I'm going to need some more time deciding. I'm not sure I can see any team score - kps has an incredible defense and such a great shield from midfield with Redondo-Tigana-Gazza, yet not enough attacking threat going on. The real question for me is Stobz attack is strong enough to score here or not
 

Balu

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What the feck are you two doing there, mazhar and Stobz :lol:. Post, quote, edit, oops it's already quoted, edit again.

Edit: I just can't vote for anyone in this match. If I vote for one, I'm being unfair on the other.
You're not allowed to vote anyway as Stobzilla's AM ;)
 

mazhar13

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What the feck are you two doing there, mazhar and Stobz :lol:. Post, quote, edit, oops it's already quoted, edit again.


You're not allowed to vote anyway as Stobzilla's AM ;)
Don't worry about that, Balu. That's nothing important ;).

And by the way, thanks for pointing out the rule. I wasn't going to vote anyways. I missed out on voting on the past two matches and might miss out on voting at NoPace vs. EAP.
 

antohan

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Wooo-hooo! I hadn't even noticed the team Stobz had assembled, some cracking additions late on.
 

antohan

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Good luck @kps88. This match should be a treat :).

I love the look of our team, and your team looks great as well. There's quite a perfect balance to both of our sides, and both of our sides are capable of doing so much with threats from almost everywhere. This should be interesting.

Edit: I just can't vote for anyone in this match. If I vote for one, I'm being unfair on the other. I think this match may settle into a draw, anyways, a 0-0, 1-1, or an exciting 2-2.
You are right, you can't.

I'm having the same problem though, can't tell them apart.

Who are the subs? kps88 has Papin and Stobz probably has some sheep collecting splinters, right? Oh, of course, Cheik!!!!!
 

antohan

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This is incredibly close. I'm going to need some more time deciding. I'm not sure I can see any team score - kps has an incredible defense and such a great shield from midfield with Redondo-Tigana-Gazza, yet not enough attacking threat going on. The real question for me is Stobz attack is strong enough to score here or not
Etoó doesn't strike me as the sort of striker Charles would enjoy dealing with. Del Piero should drag the attentions of Blanc away often enough. There's also Gascoigne advancing through the middle... Could be a very tricky game for that defensive pair.

At the other end, Carboni looks like the path of least resistence, particularly with Robben there. Not a monumental mismatch though, so not sure how much it leads to goals.

Will revisit later.
 

Stobzilla

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Etoó doesn't strike me as the sort of striker Charles would enjoy dealing with. Del Piero should drag the attentions of Blanc away often enough. There's also Gascoigne advancing through the middle... Could be a very tricky game for that defensive pair.

At the other end, Carboni looks like the path of least resistence, particularly with Robben there. Not a monumental mismatch though, so not sure how much it leads to goals.

Will revisit later.
Jack Charlton

He was quick, he was a very, very strong runner
 

antohan

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Jack Charlton
I'm not alluding to pace but the trickery of his movement. I can see him keeping a Batistuta in his pocket more comfortably than an Eto'o, that's what I was getting at.

Not that he would do a bad job, just that when Blanc gets dragged by Del Piero he has his work cut out with Gascoigne charging into the box while he has a detail on Eto'o. Sure, your midfields should be tracking Gazza, but he will escape their attentions every now and then.

Those are the paths of least resitance to a goal IMO, Robbben beating Carboni and Del Piero dragging Blanc and getting that final ball in to one of Eto'o/Gascoigne. I suppose you could also make an argument that Laudrup is as good a Maradona-like foil for Careca as you could come up with, but that central pair is very strong.
 

Stobzilla

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There is also a very obvious 2 vs 1 on his weakest defender when Stankovic can get forward as well. If Redondo moves across one of Ince or Laudrup could potentially have an acre.

Given Hatzipanagis also played as a left side midfielder in a 3 during Irakalis' cup run one could argue he will be more inclined to get back the other way, more so than what Del Piero will be doing on the opposite side.
 

Gio

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Etoó doesn't strike me as the sort of striker Charles would enjoy dealing with. Del Piero should drag the attentions of Blanc away often enough. There's also Gascoigne advancing through the middle... Could be a very tricky game for that defensive pair.

At the other end, Carboni looks like the path of least resistence, particularly with Robben there. Not a monumental mismatch though, so not sure how much it leads to goals.

Will revisit later.
It's the Del Piero / Eto'o pace and directness axis that would trouble Blanc's lack of speed. I'm not sure if Charles would be the right sort of player to recover. That's the difference for me at the moment.
 

kps88

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Great team @Stobzilla @mazhar13. Think both of us could have progressed with a kinder draw.

Tight game that would, in reality, be decided by the odd goal. Personally think I'm the more likely to keep a clean sheet. Feels odd saying Blanc-Charles is a weak point but I'm fortunate in that my attackers don't play into their strengths. The guile and movement of Del Piero-Eto'o-Gascoigne is my most likely route to goal. Anyways, I've got some work to take care of and will hopefully be back in a couple of hours.
 

mazhar13

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It's the Del Piero / Eto'o pace and directness axis that would trouble Blanc's lack of speed. I'm not sure if Charles would be the right sort of player to recover. That's the difference for me at the moment.
All the focus about del Piero/Eto'o is on Blanc, and no one ever considers that Branko is someone who would pick up del Piero. With Branko on the right side, del Piero will have a tough time dealing with 1-on-1's, and Blanc won't really have to worry about him in dealing with his pace and can focus more on reading his movements.

Also, with regards to Charles, there was a reason he played everywhere at Leeds' back line and also that of Juventus. What needs to be kept in mind is that he's not strictly man-marking Eto'o. If Eto'o moves away, Cerezo can go and pick him up. If Eto'o tries to make a run past the defensive line on the channels, Charles can comfortably follow him, and Cerezo will easily fill in for him whilst the rest of the team recovers.

And in all of this, people do not realise the defensive work Ince and Cerezo do. There is a reason both are in the team, and I already pointed out the reason at the first point: energy. Both are excellent at covering vast areas of the pitch, and if anyone strayed off, both can easily do the recovery work. Both are good at reading the movements of the opposition and positioning themselves accordingly. Both have the energy and aggression to win balls in midfield and launch attacks.

So no, there is no guarantee of defensive disorganisation in our team. We even have a left back who's played under Lobankvskiy's total football!
 

Gio

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We even have a left back who's played under Lobankvskiy's total football!
Well I'm a big fan of Demyanenko, he was a real tour de force down the left for Kiev and a shining light in an impressive team that had few peers in Europe. And you're right about Cerezo whose intelligence in running a midfield will be crucial here.

On the Del Piero/Stankovic point, what I'm getting at is that Del Piero's going to drift inside, overloading the central area with the type of trickery that will present Blanc with a problem or two. Not that Blanc is a liability by any means and he will dovetail well here with Charles (much like his partnership with Desailly), but his weaknesses are what a prime Del Piero/Eto'o combination can exploit.
 

mazhar13

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On the Del Piero/Stankovic point, what I'm getting at is that Del Piero's going to drift inside, overloading the central area with the type of trickery that will present Blanc with a problem or two. Not that Blanc is a liability by any means and he will dovetail well here with Charles (much like his partnership with Desailly), but his weaknesses are what a prime Del Piero/Eto'o combination can exploit.
I do acknowledge that del Piero is an intelligent, tricky forward who was tough to mark, but we have intelligent defenders who don't need to rely on their speed and quickness (keep in mind that Blanc and Charles aren't lumbering slouches).

Our team is set up such that they will try to win the first ball. However, if kps' team maintains possession, the players will organise themselves accordingly and read the game ahead of them. All of the back 6 are intelligent and aware of their surroundings, and all of them can defend large areas.

With all of this focus on our defence, I'm surprised no one has given much attention to our attack. There is so much movement in our team, and we can easily overload any area of the pitch, thus having many ways to disorganise kps' defensive setup. Donadoni will always have to keep an eye on the dangerous Demyanenko. Branko can easily come up to overload the right channel. Careca can take up Cannavaro's attention, and he will have to worry about Careca as he can score goals from the angle. Robben cutting in will cause lots of issues as he is very dangerous on his left foot. Sagnol has never faced anyone like Hatzi, and he will find it very difficult to take the ball out of his feet never mind try to read his movement and positions. Then, you have Laudrup who is a perfect foil the team and possesses the vision to unlock even the greatest of defences. He is also another goal threat that kps' team will have to deal with.
 

kps88

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All of the back 6 are intelligent and aware of their surroundings, and all of them can defend large areas.
I could easily say the same for my team.

There's not going to be chances galore or glaring overloads at this level; both teams are too well balanced and organized for that. For me, it comes down to being able to capitalize the most when chances do pop up. It just so happens my best route to goal is more direct than yours. If Del Piero or Eto'o get away, it's a shot on goal. If you overload against Carboni, Robben is naturally shown onto his right and, best case scenario, it's a cross from either him or Stankovic which I'd expect Cannavaro-Bergomi to deal with.

And this is a bit dead, huh? I swear it was like this the last time I played Stobz as well. At least he's not drunk though :lol:
 

mazhar13

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I could easily say the same for my team.

There's not going to be chances galore or glaring overloads at this level; both teams are too well balanced and organized for that. For me, it comes down to being able to capitalize the most when chances do pop up. It just so happens my best route to goal is more direct than yours. If Del Piero or Eto'o get away, it's a shot on goal. If you overload against Carboni, Robben is naturally shown onto his right and, best case scenario, it's a cross from either him or Stankovic which I'd expect Cannavaro-Bergomi to deal with.

And this is a bit dead, huh? I swear it was like this the last time I played Stobz as well. At least he's not drunk though :lol:
As likely as del Piero and Eto'o are to get through on goal on the rare occasions, it's also as likely that Laudrup and Hatzi can put Careca, Robben, Laudrup (if through Hatzi) and/or Ince through on goal.

You have pace and trickery in your team, we have pace, trickery, and free-flowing movement of the front 4 combined with Ince/Cerezo coming up as a late runner into the final third. The fact that Careca's lateral movement is being completely dismissed is baffling me. As you can see in his video that I put up, he frequently favoured to pull out to the channel. This will cause issues for Carboni as he'll have to either come in to deal with Careca and let Robben free to drive through, or stick to Robben but allow Careca to go through in between him and Cannavaro. Then, you have Hatzi who's roaming around on the left channel, pulling your players away when on the ball with his exquisite dribbling. You also seem to completely ignore Demyanenko, who was very dangerous on the attack and tough to handle. With Hatzi occupying Sagnol, Demya will be in a good amount of space to create chances and even go for goal if needed.

As I said at the beginning, none of us have a real clear advantage. It's pretty much a coin toss if I have to be fair. However, I feel like we have more sources for goals than you do along with more players with individual quality and magic. We have Robben, Careca, Laudrup, Demya, Charles, and Blanc for goal threads. For dribblers, you have Donadoni, del Piero, Eto'o and Gazza. We have Robben, Hatzi, Laudrup, and Demyanenko.

On your last sentence, I get the feeling that most voters are unsure about who to actually vote for. Either that, or our teams aren't as fascinating as others.
 

kps88

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As likely as del Piero and Eto'o are to get through on goal on the rare occasions, it's also as likely that Laudrup and Hatzi can put Careca, Robben, Laudrup (if through Hatzi) and/or Ince through on goal.
Yeah but I just think Cannavaro-Bergomi-Zoff are better equipped to deal with that compared to your pair.

I see no point in getting into the "who's on who" game these things often descend into unless it's a glaring mismatch. Eto'o can drift wide just like Careca to let Del Piero drive through and create the same scenario you described, don't seem how Demya is ignored as Donadoni will obviously track back etc. It comes down to individual match ups where, again, I just feel Blanc and Charles are a tiny bit more vulnerable in what is a key area of the pitch.

Anyways I'm off to bed, 'night.
 

NM

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Whoever I vote for seems to lose/go down in the voting.:lol: I guess I'll vote for my opponent inn the next game!:devil:
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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I think Stobz will lose scan votes for Hatzi and Careca.

Personally, With Redondo and Gazza moving up, I think kps will have more of a attacking bite...which is countered by defensive solidity of Ince/Cerezo.

This match will be lively with shots fired at both ends, but ultimately will end in a draw.
 

Pat_Mustard

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There's so little between the teams here. I love the quality in possession that Stobz has at centre back, but I can't see Blanc and Charles getting much licence to move forward with the ball. Eto'o looks the most likely goalscorer, but then Laudrup playing in Robben is a great route to goal too. I'd edge towards KPS here but I'm not at all sure.
 

Stobzilla

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OK. Slight tactical switch.



Stankovich tucks in to make himself an auxillary RCB type of RB, another role he was comfortable in. We may lose something going forward on occasion but it limits how productive Del Piero and Eto'o (the main threat) can be.

@Balu
 
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Gio

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Good call Stobz. It's only a minor switch, but a sensible one IMO and tightens things up.
 

Skizzo

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No disrespect to KPS, because he has a great team...but a bit surprised Stobz is losing this one. Think his team is well crafted, and can see it posing much more of a threat, rather than the other way around.

Maybe it's my bias to Charles :p but I think some of the other names Stobz has in the team are hurting him here. Which is a shame really. Although there is about 5 or so underwhelming/underappreciated/unknown names so I can see how that would effect some voters against, and some just avoiding it all together.