Should marijuana be legalized in the US or worldwide?

Wellesley

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Should POT be de-criminalized, as pertains the USA? What if it is legal? Any benifits?

First let me state that I believe the legal prohibition of "processed" or enhanced drugs which have a potential to cause death directly from their usage should not only be continued, but also justifies increased interdiction and most any form of erradication efforts... both in terms of supplier and user.

In the case of marijuana, an organic and wholely innocuous substance (not a narcotic) which the government has no business trying to control or eradicate, it is not a question so much of morality but one of practicality and reasonability. And before you even think it, forget it. This old man is NOT a user but is a former user (quit in 1972). It has no appeal to me because it is illegal and probably too expensive.

These are some of the arguements I have found credible:

The simple fact that it is illegal is what gives this easily cultivated substance value to those who would take advantage of it's suppression and are willing to risk criminal prosecution for distributing it in defiance of the law.

Legalize it, tax it and regulate instead of ban it and you will have destroyed a multi-billion dollar source of profits for organized crime. A bag of illegal pot costing $100 if legalized would instead sell (at a good profit for the legal producer) for less than $10 (after all, you can easily grow it virtually anywhere).

You will instantly free up countless millions of dollars in law enforcement resources and officers for more purposeful uses.

You will produce enough tax revenue in federal coffers (not to mention state treasuries) to virtually eliminate the budget deficits and wipe out the national debt in less than 10 years if the reasonable tax revenues were applied to do so. Proceeds could also be used to fund education, hard drug addicition or medicaid outside the general fund.

You would instantly free up tens of thousands of beds or "slots" in penitentiaries and jails providing space for as many violent repetative criminals which will go far to reduce felonious crimes and free up valuable law enforcement professionals and budget resources.

Important medical research into this amazingly useful, naturally-ocurring substance (THC) could be brought into the light enabling legal speculative investigation of its useful application as a medical remedy.

In short, the economic sense in legalization is overwhelming as is the medical sense in research. And no one, to the best of my knowledge, has ever been directly killed or has died from using it in itself. Of course, since it is a mood-altering drug and known to impair physical performance during use (like alcohol), one's irresponsible actions following its use are not withstanding.

I fail to see sufficient reason to oppose legalization.
Specious arguements such as "gateway drug" and permanent brain damage" aside since neither is empiracally provable, should someone be able to reasonably produce sufficient arguements to warrant disregard of the practicality, I will change my point of view.

End of rant.

--------------------
I place my trust in God, gold, guts and guns... everything else is suspect!

A man's personal liberty depends no less on his economic freedom to earn and expend than on his ability to proficiently use his firearm in its ultimate defense.
 

WeasteDevil

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It should be legalised, yes.

I'm not going to write an essay on why.
 

WeasteDevil

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Somebody posts this quite often, is it you every time, or do I have Deja Vueooo?
 

WeasteDevil

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Originally posted by Raoul:
<strong>All drugs should be legalized in socialist countries (ie. Europe). ;) </strong><hr></blockquote>

Eh?
 

WeasteDevil

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Raoul seems to forget about Maggie Thatcher, and also forgets to mention that our so called socialist government is deploying one of the largest numbers of British forces since the Second World War to the Middle East. 36,000 at the last count, and it's sure that will end at around 50,000.
 

Raoul

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Legalizing drugs would result in greater medical expenses to society at large - something that would be better suited in socialist systems since the government could pick up the tab. If it were to happen in a free market economy where people actually have to account for their actions, then you'd see alot more homeless and drug addicts running around.
 

Raoul

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Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>Raoul seems to forget about Maggie Thatcher, and also forgets to mention that our so called socialist government is deploying one of the largest numbers of British forces since the Second World War to the Middle East. 36,000 at the last count, and it's sure that will end at around 50,000.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Weaste, I respect that and wasn't aiming my comments toward Britain.
 

WeasteDevil

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Originally posted by Raoul:
<strong>Legalizing drugs would result in greater medical expenses to society at large - something that would be better suited in socialist systems since the government could pick up the tab. If it were to happen in a free market economy where people actually have to account for their actions, then you'd see alot more homeless and drug addicts running around.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's bollocks for legalised drugs such as Tobaco and Alcohol, as the state taxes them to such an extent that the effects in the long term cost practically nothing. 20 cigs in Manchester will cost you 5 pounds.
 

Raoul

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Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>

That's bollocks for legalised drugs such as Tobaco and Alcohol, as the state taxes them to such an extent that the effects in the long term cost practically nothing. 20 cigs in Manchester will cost you 5 pounds.</strong><hr></blockquote>

But how much of that revenue is applied to medical issues. Seems to me that the taxes on legal drugs are targetted towards making them cost prohibitive. Additionally, Legal Drugs are already causing problems ranging from drunk driving fatalities, to liver disease, to emphysema, and lung cancer. Why would we want to add to those by making illegal drugs legal ? It would get rid of the violent black market factor, but the medical issues would explode. That's not a worthy tradeoff just because people want to get high without having to worry about the cops.
 

Wellesley

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Originally posted by Raoul:
Legalizing drugs would result in greater medical expenses to society at large - something that would be better suited in socialist systems since the government could pick up the tab. If it were to happen in a free market economy where people actually have to account for their actions, then you'd see alot more homeless and drug addicts running around.<hr></blockquote>


My friends, I'm only talking about marijuana as indicated by the first paragraph.
 

Jade

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how do u figure legalizing drugs..(and we are just talking marijuana,yes?) adds to medical costs Raoul? just an opinion, or do u have some stats?
 

WeasteDevil

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We seem to be at differnt threads here Raoul. All I'm trying to say is that although smoking related diseases takes up a lot of social security money in European countries (Britain especially), the amount of tax paid to smke that tobaco is immense. Surely it pays for it.

I do not agree totally with selling ganja, but why not, you can ban it but people still do it, then the state has to pay for court costs etc. Why not tax it?

I dont like politicians telling me what I can and cannot do, it's wrong in my opinion. What right do they have to do this?

Even Lincon said: "No man is good enough to govern an other man without his consent"

There are norms, but what right does someone have to tell me what I can and cannot do in the privicy of my of home when I am not hurting anybody else?
 

Raoul

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I'm talking about the health costs that are incurred by currently legal drugs ? How can you convince me that legalizing currently illegal drugs won't simply add to the pre-existing problem. Cannabis or other, legalizing the drugs will infact cause more health issues to arise.
 

Wellesley

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Additionally, Legal Drugs are already causing problems ranging from drunk driving fatalities, to liver disease, to emphysema, and lung cancer. Why would we want to add to those by making illegal drugs legal ?<hr></blockquote>

In terms of marijuana, Raoul, people are already smoking and using it. What do you mean "add to"? Widespread use has been going on for 40 years now in the US. Medical costs associated with that use have already manifested themselves.
 

WeasteDevil

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Originally posted by Raoul:
<strong>

But how much of that revenue is applied to medical issues.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That is the business of the government, but I'll tell you one thing, they try to make smoking for example less attractive and are having success, however, the more success they have the more they raise the smoking tax, so they never lose money. They are clever bastards, it's a revenue stream they will always protect, and once it does not provide that revenue they will stop their health policies and programs.
 

WeasteDevil

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Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>I wish I was sober Raoul, I really do.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Meaning it's an excellent conversation and very interesting, but I'm not in a state to really do it right now. Trouble is, you are not around when I am in a state to do it. :(
 

Raoul

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Originally posted by Wellesley:
<strong>

In terms of marijuana, Raoul, people are already smoking and using it. What do you mean "add to"? Widespread use has been going on for 40 years now in the US. Medical costs associated with that use have already manifested themselves.</strong><hr></blockquote>

So why make the current situation worse by legally endorsing it's sale and allowing more people access to it ?
 

Wibble

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I'm not sure that you could make it more available. My feeling is that prohibition has failes miseravbly so legalisation or at least decriminalisation for users might stand a chance of breaking the link with crime to some degree.
 

ManUinOz

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My girlfrien works in a psychiatric clinic and over eighty percent of her patients are marijuana users. There is no doubt that marijuana (THC) is a major factor in mental illnesses particularly psychoses and should not be legalised/decriminalised. If we went back in time and tried to legalise tobacco with what we now know about the effects we would be foolish would we not.
A recent survey I read about hard drug use found that over ninety percent got into the drug "scene" through marijuana first.
In my home state of S. Australia marijuana has been largely decriminalised and is readily available yet still accounts for a large proportion of other crimes from aggravated burglary, motoring offences, street violence etc.
It should not be legalised IMO.
 

Wibble

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A friend of mine is also a phyciartic nurse and he told me almost exactly the same thing. But if there is a substance that can give a high, be it glue, solvents, alcohol, drugs or even licking cane toads, somebody will use and abuse it. We need to seek a way that will minimise the social and monetary costs to society.

The way I look at it though is that prohibition has failed and failed badly, as it did with alcohol in the US. Something else needs to be tried. Decriminalisation only really frees up the courts since dealing is still illegal. Maybe legal state supplied is the way to go.
 

AhmedDimwitson

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Originally posted by Wibble:
<strong>A. We need to seek a way that will minimise the social and monetary costs to society.

T.</strong><hr></blockquote>

How would legalizing it reduce the social costs?

I can only see the state increasing their profits through taxes to pay for the costs, I can't see how it would reduce them it would on contrary probably increast the use of the substance.
 

ste_grassham

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no it shouldnt! for one its the strat of getting high, gange, then coke, the smack heads! the world need rid of these parasites, druggies go to feck
 

Elfie

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Originally posted by Raoul:
<strong>All drugs should be legalized in socialist countries (ie. Europe). ;) </strong><hr></blockquote>

:rolleyes:

Chirac a socialist <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />

There have never been real socialist countries in western Europe, nothing more than social-democrat regims...
 

Raoul

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Originally posted by Elfie:
<strong>

:rolleyes:

Chirac a socialist <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />

There have never been real socialist countries in western Europe, nothing more than social-democrat regims...</strong><hr></blockquote>


Whatever. Socialist...social democrat...whatever. the main point is that the government pays for health care in these countries...which would make the tax burden greater on society if medical costs related to legal drug use were introduced.
 

Wibble

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Originally posted by AhmedDimwitson:
<strong>

How would legalizing it reduce the social costs?

I can only see the state increasing their profits through taxes to pay for the costs, I can't see how it would reduce them it would on contrary probably increast the use of the substance.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The stuff is so available I can't see how use could be increased.

The social costs of use wouldn't change. However much of the social and monetary cost comes from the crime associated with users needing to feed their habit (not really an issue with grass/hash) and in particular the dealing of drugs. If we took the dealers and the associated crime out of the equation it could only be a benefit.

I don't claim to have "the answer" but I would be prepared to try something different since the "war" on drugs has been such an unmitigated failure.
 

giggzy

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Originally posted by Wibble:
<strong>

If we took the dealers and the associated crime out of the equation it could only be a benefit.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

exactly...


crime especially in urban areas is generally drugs related....

i'd legalise drugs, inparticular the soft stuff like canabis.... its not like its hard to get hold of anyway... atleast this way, the drug dealers will be taken out of the equation.
 

Jade

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no it shouldnt! for one its the strat of getting high, gange, then coke, the smack heads! the world need rid of these parasites, druggies go to feck"[/B

.................................................
This has to be one of the biggest "I dont have a clue,but will run my mouth" statements ive ever seen...My friends and myself,have been regular marijuana smokers for a good 20 yrs....and im still waiting for that "gateway" to swallow me up.
We all work..pay our taxes,majority are college educated,and maintain respectable family lives,and are some of the healthiest people I know (maybe because we tend to be relaxed/not as stressed as some people)some EVEN go to church regularly!
:eek:

And Im sorry..i have to laugh at these insinuations that crime just soars with the head crowd because they needa "fix".......OMG...anyone implying such obviously has no experience with this herb.Thats all "reefer madness" BS.

To those that love their pints so much....would u like to be lumped in with those idiots who dont know when to quit drinking? cant hold a job, an embarrassement to themselves and their families,pissed all the time/nasty..........Is this a fair representaion of u all? I hardly think so,so u can see its not right to paint everyone with the same brush.

There could be something to over use of bud and depression, and its not for everyone,much like alcohol..but I gaurantee u will never see a violent person who simply smokes weed and leaves the crack to the crack heads.

U may even find they are some of the most open minded,non judgemental,gentle people u will ever meet.

ok...im "going to feck" now ..

just my two cents
 

nickm

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Originally posted by Raoul:
<strong>I'm talking about the health costs that are incurred by currently legal drugs ? How can you convince me that legalizing currently illegal drugs won't simply add to the pre-existing problem. Cannabis or other, legalizing the drugs will infact cause more health issues to arise.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You have to love rightwing types like Raoul who like to have their personal freedom cake and eat it.

Freedom is OK when it comes to financial liberty - Government 'interference' is wrong and should be discouraged.

Freedom is OK when it comes to the right to own guns, despite the proven burden on public health services of 50,000 deaths a year and countless more injuries.

Freedom however is bad when it comes to recreational liberty - Government interference is right and should not only be encouraged, but enforced by the ruthless and highly discrimatory practise of jailing millions of drug users.

I am in favour of the legalisation and regulation of all narcotics, because I believe the damage prohibition is doing to society - in terms of crime, in terms of health, in terms of uncontrolled addiction - exists, is proven, is getting ever worse and will not go away until we rethink the policy from the ground up.

Prohibition has been one of the most socially disastrous policies ever foisted on the population and those who support it are defending a bankrupt, broken and morally indefensible policy.

Legalisation, in some form, conversely offers a way out of the blind alley types like Raoul continue to want the rest of us to drive down.
 

nickm

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Originally posted by Raoul:
<strong>


Whatever. Socialist...social democrat...whatever. the main point is that the government pays for health care in these countries...which would make the tax burden greater on society if medical costs related to legal drug use were introduced.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Raoul, prove that removing prohibition on cannabis users would cause the overall tax burden to rise. Or are you just making this up?
 

nickm

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Originally posted by ste_grassham:
<strong>no it shouldnt! for one its the strat of getting high, gange, then coke, the smack heads! the world need rid of these parasites, druggies go to feck</strong><hr></blockquote>

You are obviously quite young, so I will be nice.

Go listen to any music recorded in the drug-drenched 1960s. Then put on anything recorded in the squeaky-clean 1990s. Tell me what sounds better.

Then go watch some Bill Hicks.
 

Wellesley

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I understand that the Dutch de-criminalization of marijuana has worked quite well. The overall use of mj has actually decreased and there has been no noticable increase in the use of heroin, crack or amphetamines as a result. Do we have Dutch here? Perhaps someone could let me know if what I have heard is really true?
 

ManUinOz

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Originally posted by nickm:
[QB]
Go listen to any music recorded in the drug-drenched 1960s. Then put on anything recorded in the squeaky-clean 1990s. Tell me what sounds better.
QB]<hr></blockquote>

I am the egg man, I am the Walrus, goo goo ga joo, goo goo ga joo.
Makes a lot of sense to me. One of the big differences between the 60's and the 90's is that much of today's marijuana is hydroponically grown and the concentration of THC is much higher than the natural "herb".
Now I was only a kid in the 60's but from my observations the use of marijuana is far more prevalent now than it was back then. It's use amongst high school kids and older here is exceptionally high.
 

ManUinOz

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Originally posted by Jade:
<strong>[
This has to be one of the biggest "I dont have a clue,but will run my mouth" statements ive ever seen...My friends and myself,have been regular marijuana smokers for a good 20 yrs....and im still waiting for that "gateway" to swallow me up.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Early marijuana use ups risk of drug abuse

Last Updated: 2003-01-21 16:49:03 -0400 (Reuters Health)

By Suzanne Rostler

NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - Teens who smoke marijuana at an early age are more likely than their siblings to use more dangerous drugs later on or to become addicted to drugs or alcohol, according to a study of twins published Tuesday.

The study found that a twin who smoked marijuana before the age of 17 was up to four times more likely to use other drugs and up to six times more likely to abuse drugs or alcohol, compared to their twin sibling who did not smoke at an early age. Other risk factors for drug abuse, including depression, childhood sexual abuse, or a parent's separation or divorce, did not affect the findings.


Jade the majority of dope users don't go on to harder drugs but the links between the two cannot be ignored.
 

nickm

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Originally posted by ManUinOz:
<strong>

Early marijuana use ups risk of drug abuse

Last Updated: 2003-01-21 16:49:03 -0400 (Reuters Health)

By Suzanne Rostler

NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - Teens who smoke marijuana at an early age are more likely than their siblings to use more dangerous drugs later on or to become addicted to drugs or alcohol, according to a study of twins published Tuesday.

The study found that a twin who smoked marijuana before the age of 17 was up to four times more likely to use other drugs and up to six times more likely to abuse drugs or alcohol, compared to their twin sibling who did not smoke at an early age. Other risk factors for drug abuse, including depression, childhood sexual abuse, or a parent's separation or divorce, did not affect the findings.


Jade the majority of dope users don't go on to harder drugs but the links between the two cannot be ignored.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Cannabis is not the gateway drug. *Tobacco* is the gateway drug.

An American Health Journal report published in 1990, said the US National Institute on Drug Abuse found that 12 to 17 year olds who smoke cigarettes are 14 times more likely to abuse alcohol, 100 times more likely to smoke marijuana, and 32 times more likely to use cocaine than their nonsmoking peers.
* The National Institute on Drug Abuse found that 95% of high school seniors who smoked, tried illicit drugs, while only 27% of non-smokers tried illicit drugs. 94% of smoking seniors tried marijuana compared to 20% of non-smoking seniors; 49% of smoking seniors tried cocaine, while 5% of non-smoking seniors tried it.

Sorry, but this myth that cannabis is the 'gateway drug' needs stamping on. The only reason this myth is promulgated, is because the tobacco industry is powerful while the average weed-head isn't.
 

Jade

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like I said...its not for everybody,and I certainly wouldnt force it on anyone.
There is also an obvious link between that first beer and alcoholism....but not all drinkers are alcoholics.
 

ManUinOz

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Originally posted by nickm:
<strong>
Sorry, but this myth that cannabis is the 'gateway drug' needs stamping on. The only reason this myth is promulgated, is because the tobacco industry is powerful while the average weed-head isn't.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The use of marijuana leads to the use of other drugs. Of those who use marijuana 3 to 10 times, 20% go on to use cocaine. Of those who use marijuana one hundred or more times, 75% go on to use cocaine. Based on research by as reported in the Journal of Clinical Psychiatry