Indeed. That was a really interesting thing to learn. I actually thought Liedholm, Nordahl were younger in '58 and that represented their peak but that wasn't really even the case which is amazing and unfortunate. And yeah most footage I've seen from that era is just poor filming. At least its an improvement on the 30s when they just had a stationary cameras sitting in front of the goal and sometimes you just see a ball flying into the net without even seeing the player.
And yes, Raynor seems very interesting. I am now inspired to read more on some of those Dutch players from that era, and put more effort into my write-up cheers!
Yeah I can't even think properly about the match yet with all Annah's new information and Sjor's wealth of gifs
That is the sort of view I think all of us had. I knew the age of Liedholm and Gren but it was a wonderful read to learn how they could play defensive roles earlier. 1948-51 was their peak and in Gren was mainly a manager in 1958 who was brought back to play some ball and he just had the talent to still take a spot in the team of the tournament.
The trio were three of the very finest players in the world between 48-51, probably Ballon d'Or winning quality in both 48 with Valentino Mazzola as the other great competitor. In '51 they won the Latin Cup(Forerunner of EC/CL) in an utterly dominating fashion and would have also been three of the best players of the season.
Here is a compilation of their 50-51 season, which wasn't quite as attackingly mindblowing as how they played between 48-50 but still a great source to see how they played. Milan scored 118 together in 49-50 and the three averaged two goals per game on their own. 18 from Liedholm, 18 from Gren and 35 from Nordahl.
@Annahnomoss How do you plan to deal with the right flank of Sjor's given that he has two top notch wing presences there who could potentially be a dangerous duo together, esp if Lahm goes on a overlap or combines with Julinho.
@Šjor Bepo Would like more clarification on Iniesta's role here, would have preferred a lop-sided 4-3-3 with Cubillas as the LWF and Iniesta slightly more central but would love to hear your rationale first. Likewise, how do you plan on limiting the influence of Liedholm-Sune Andersson and of course Hamrin who could prove to be a handful for Zhirkov who was great offensively as a wing-back in 2008 but wasn't exactly known for his defensive prowess.
I have a question. I don't quite see how the Cubillas-Hidegkuti-Iniesta-Beckenbauer roles are suited to complement each other. It seems like on attacks those four will cluster together. Looks playmaker heavy but no finishers. It appears a delicate balance to work right. How exactly do you see those four combining?
@Annahnomoss How do you plan to deal with the right flank of Sjor's given that he has two top notch wing presences there who could potentially be a dangerous duo together, esp if Lahm goes on a overlap or combines with Julinho.
The idea behind the WM was to allow the opponent space on the outside so both Zhirkov and Lahm would be allowed to find crosses towards the box. In theory it was to force a longer pass in that open area from RB/LB to an offensive player, which they could win back.
The way Sweden would defend against a winger(+1) having the ball at the wing at the time was by doing the following.
Say the opponent right winger is attacking down the Swedish left side. Left back Erik
Nilsson would have the task of defending against the winger to make sure he wouldn't cut inside, while forcing him and Lahm to stay on the outside.
At the same time RCB Orvar Bergmark would make the line more narrow so that in case a cross comes in he's available in the area as well. The left and right half who were both strong header and defenders would also fall down almost in line with the defenders to flood the box.
While Liedholm/Gren would only enter the box in case a cross actually came. Nordahl, Hamrin and Skoglund would be ready to burst forward on the counter in case the team won the ball. A risky approach in case the opponents had a great aerial threat, but at the same time the chance of a goal from the Swedish counter was even greater.
The entire Swedish team was extremely dominant in the air and it was a crucial part. The back line were all great at breaking down the attack by winning all aerial duels and the second ball and against USSR they shut them down completely that way.
For Rosengren and Andersson it was equally important to dominate the aerial duels to make sure no long balls would reach the opponents for them to flick on.
@Šjor Bepo Would like more clarification on Iniesta's role here, would have preferred a lop-sided 4-3-3 with Cubillas as the LWF and Iniesta slightly more central but would love to hear your rationale first. Likewise, how do you plan on limiting the influence of Liedholm-Sune Andersson and of course Hamrin who could prove to be a handful for Zhirkov who was great offensively as a wing-back in 2008 but wasn't exactly known for his defensive prowess.
Hmm i thought i would going to need explain few player roles but never really think of Iniesta would be one of them...he is pretty much in the same role that he had on Euro 2012, starting from the left but having complete freedom to drift inside when ever he wants.
Defensive wise i dont have anything specially prepared, back 6 is extremely strong with Kaiser and Coluna shielding the back 4. Plan is to defend through possession and ensure ball recovery via high press so i anticipate a lot of long balls from annahs team when they were put under pressure, from Kaiser's game compilation you can see how many aerial balls he collected against soviets.
Think annah already said id win possession battle so in his last post you can see his defending formation, look how deep Sule Andersson is and if you believe or agree with my/our possession prediction he would be that deep for majority of the game so his offensive contribution would be minimal.
On the other hand, handling Hamrin would be a much more difficult task and i can say Coluna will help out Zhirkov but the reality is im hoping my team can do more damage when i have the ball then Hamrin can do on the counter, specially as annah admitted he doesnt have a solution for my fullbacks and as you said, Zhirkov was great offensively and one of russians biggest weapons on that Euro.
I have a question. I don't quite see how the Cubillas-Hidegkuti-Iniesta-Beckenbauer roles are suited to complement each other. It seems like on attacks those four will cluster together. Looks playmaker heavy but no finishers. It appears a delicate balance to work right. How exactly do you see those four combining?
Odd how different people see different things For me, that 4 is the biggest strength of my team and they all complement each other very well.
Beckenbauer isnt a playmaker, check the gif match compilation to see how he played. He played pretty balanced and simple game(as all 4 TBF) and if it wasnt for his offensive runs it would be a typical modern defensive midfield performance. He didnt dwell on the ball nor did he was trying hollywood staff.
Both Iniesta and Hidegkuti excelled in teams where they had help in playmaker department(Hidegkuti - Bozsik and Puskas; Iniesta - Xavi, Xabi, Messi, Silva etc.). Think specifically those 3(Kaiser, Andres and Hidegkuti) would be an absolute joy to watch, playing pass and move game and combining with each other.
For Cubillas, this is why we went for youngest 1970 version as he was pretty much an inside forward compared to 1978 where he was like a more classical attacking midfielder even though even then he had something different in his game and liked to play more simplistic game compared to other attacking midfielders.
You can see in first three gifs how he played, simple and effective solutions. I watched that Brazil game and i decided that id only make gifs where he combined with others, played one twos etc. In the end i managed to create one gif outside the goal which tells you the story of his team. Some absolute brain dead players in there, dont recall their names but they were physically strong player, one played on the right wing while the other lead the line. The lack of understanding and technical ability was astonishing....but it tells you a story about Cubillas, even though he played with Zaha and Benteke he stayed loyal to his game, kept it simple most of the time and only tried on his own on 2 or 3 occasions in 90 minutes even though he was few classes above everyone else in that team bar Chumpitaz who played at the back.
With Beckenbauer bombing forward in his fantastic '66 role it would leave the team very suspect from the counters from Liedholm and Gren who excelled at bursting towards opponents and dribbling past them. Brazilian reporters referred to Coluna as "The Didi of Portugal" and even for the best defensive player it would be near impossible to stop my front five from scoring goals as I win the ball back.
You can see in first three gifs how he played, simple and effective solutions. I watched that Brazil game and i decided that id only make gifs where he combined with others, played one twos etc. In the end i managed to create one gif outside the goal which tells you the story of his team. Some absolute brain dead players in there, dont recall their names but they were physically strong player, one played on the right wing while the other lead the line. The lack of understanding and technical ability was astonishing....but it tells you a story about Cubillas, even though he played with Zaha and Benteke he stayed loyal to his game, kept it simple most of the time and only tried on his own on 2 or 3 occasions in 90 minutes even though he was few classes above everyone else in that team bar Chumpitaz who played at the back.
Aye , and don't forget their absolute train crash of their goalkeeper, still think it has to be amongst the worst goalkeeping displays ever. Also Roberto Challe acquitted himself fairly well and seemed like a classy operator.
Odd how different people see different things For me, that 4 is the biggest strength of my team and they all complement each other very well.
Beckenbauer isnt a playmaker, check the gif match compilation to see how he played. He played pretty balanced and simple game(as all 4 TBF) and if it wasnt for his offensive runs it would be a typical modern defensive midfield performance. He didnt dwell on the ball nor did he was trying hollywood staff.
Both Iniesta and Hidegkuti excelled in teams where they had help in playmaker department(Hidegkuti - Bozsik and Puskas; Iniesta - Xavi, Xabi, Messi, Silva etc.). Think specifically those 3(Kaiser, Andres and Hidegkuti) would be an absolute joy to watch, playing pass and move game and combining with each other.
For Cubillas, this is why we went for youngest 1970 version as he was pretty much an inside forward compared to 1978 where he was like a more classical attacking midfielder even though even then he had something different in his game and liked to play more simplistic game compared to other attacking midfielders.
You can see in first three gifs how he played, simple and effective solutions. I watched that Brazil game and i decided that id only make gifs where he combined with others, played one twos etc. In the end i managed to create one gif outside the goal which tells you the story of his team. Some absolute brain dead players in there, dont recall their names but they were physically strong player, one played on the right wing while the other lead the line. The lack of understanding and technical ability was astonishing....but it tells you a story about Cubillas, even though he played with Zaha and Benteke he stayed loyal to his game, kept it simple most of the time and only tried on his own on 2 or 3 occasions in 90 minutes even though he was few classes above everyone else in that team bar Chumpitaz who played at the back.
With Beckenbauer bombing forward in his fantastic '66 role it would leave the team very suspect from the counters from Liedholm and Gren who excelled at bursting towards opponents and dribbling past them. Brazilian reporters referred to Coluna as "The Didi of Portugal" and even for the best defensive player it would be near impossible to stop my front five from scoring goals as I win the ball back.
Thats why i decided to create a compilation, he picked his runs very wisely and IIRC he only lost the ball once while in other occasions it was always very dangerous for the opposition. You have a fair share routes to scoring but i dont think Kaiser is one of them
Thats why i decided to create a compilation, he picked his runs very wisely and IIRC he only lost the ball once while in other occasions it was always very dangerous for the opposition. You have a fair share routes to scoring but i dont think Kaiser is one of them
Him dealing with a square would be a pure guess tbh as i cant really tell how would that affect him but regarding a counter threat i dont think thats an issue. Even though he was very young his footballing brain was enormous and you can tell that with every decision he made on that pitch + when he goes up at worst you have back 4 or 5 behind him + Iniesta or Cubillas can stay to cover in that one instance.
Him dealing with a square would be a pure guess tbh as i cant really tell how would that affect him but regarding a counter threat i dont think thats an issue. Even though he was very young his footballing brain was enormous and you can tell that with every decision he made on that pitch + when he goes up at worst you have back 4 or 5 behind him + Iniesta or Cubillas can stay to cover in that one instance.
Not really sure on Hidegkuti's role. Why not place him as a proper #10? And not really sure on a 4-2-4's suitability for a high press.
Annah's metedo is well built. Hamrin vs Zhirkov will be a key battle here. Though I'm not really familiar with his defensive midfield duo. They have a bog tas with Hidegkuti dropping and Beckenbauer moving up.
Unusual formations by both and hard to wrap my head around how this will work.
Not really sure on Hidegkuti's role. Why not place him as a proper #10? And not really sure on a 4-2-4's suitability for a high press.
Annah's metedo is well built. Hamrin vs Zhirkov will be a key battle here. Though I'm not really familiar with his defensive midfield duo. They have a bog tas with Hidegkuti dropping and Beckenbauer moving up.
Unusual formations by both and hard to wrap my head around how this will work.
While true that Beckenbauer moving forward would be dangerous, Gren and Liedholm being left behind on the counter would be even more so. They scored 36 goals as a pair for Milan in one season and continued with that ratio for Sweden in the Olympics as they beat some of the best teams of the era in Austria and Yugoslavia with 6-1 in total.
Bian Rosengren was handpicked to complement this team. Erik Nilsson had been the captain for a long time and Grenoli were fantastic captain material as well. Yet after one game Rosengren with his destructive forces and steel was named the captain of the side. He was seen as the perfect complement of Sune Anderssons fantastic deep lying abilities, dribbling and long range shot and the Grenoli side. After the Olympic final he was carried out of the field by the Swedish side, victorious, to be the first to stand on the podium
Grenoli would average 2 goals per game just on their own both for Milan in '49 and Sweden. Then you add the threat of having great wingers all of a sudden in Hamrin and Skoglund and you can see goals galore here. As far as WM goes this is a classic one that achieved some mind blowing stuff.
It wasn't just that they scored goals, they were practically unstoppable as well. Gren and Liedholm only lost one competitive NT game ever, and since Liedholm made the debut he just lost 4 games in 23 matches. While winning 18 and drawing just one.
Not really sure on Hidegkuti's role. Why not place him as a proper #10? And not really sure on a 4-2-4's suitability for a high press.
Annah's metedo is well built. Hamrin vs Zhirkov will be a key battle here. Though I'm not really familiar with his defensive midfield duo. They have a bog tas with Hidegkuti dropping and Beckenbauer moving up.
Unusual formations by both and hard to wrap my head around how this will work.
He can play any role. Now, an international peak is reached in a specific position and Hidegkuti 1954 used to play behind Puskas and Kocsis: it means his role was to orchestrate the game at the heart of the Game and support strikers.
Cubillas 70 is familiar with this tactical system but played with Pedro Pablo Léon, a robust target striker.
I know it's not a remake draft but my question was rather: can we get the most out of these players without a pure striker?*
Coluna-Beckenbauer-Nasazzi-Figueroa
Team Annah requires more time to understand but I know his offensive players are superb.
He can play any role. Now, an international peak is reached in a specific position and Hidegkuti 1954 used to play behind Puskas and Kocsis: it means his role was to orchestrate the game at the heart of the Game and support strikers.
Cubillas 70 is familiar with this tactical system but played with Pedro Pablo Léon, a robust target striker.
I know it's not a remake draft but my question was rather: can we get the most out of these players without a pure striker?*
Coluna-Beckenbauer-Nasazzi-Figueroa
Team Annah requires more time to understand but I know his offensive players are superb.
The defensive unit was incredible really with team of the tournament performances from them all - Erik Nilsson in 1950 and Bergmark/Gustavsson in 1958. Erik Nilsson was the one carrying Sweden to the third place glory in 1952 when Skoglund and Grenoli were gone. He was a physical specimen, perfect for the tactics that Raynor used where the defenders had to read the game, then burst forward and win the ball back aggressively before the opponent had their touch. Physically he was of the highest quality with a stamina far above any of his peers, but his strength and pace was what really set him apart. After football training he'd go straight to the wrestling training which is where he got wrestlers strength and balance.
To Raynor the greatest player of the team for how important he was. "He straight up scared his opponents, some teams even threatened Malmö that they wouldn't play friendly games against them if Nilsson would be on the pitch. He was a real captain and a leader, with good positioning and tactical awareness but also decent ball control. He was part of Olympic gold in 1948 in London, World Championship bronze in 1950 and Olympic bronze in Helsinki 1952.
Witnesses of his games remembers "How we enjoyed when the opponents right winger got the ball at his feet and in panic got rid of it not to get hit by the train. How we laughed when Erik, with a smile on his face went for a tackle on the horrified winger and stole the ball from him like stealing candy from a disobedient kid."
The Swedish defenders were specialized in reading the pass, pushing forward and nailing a tackle. As well as dominate any aerial duels they were faced with by pushing forward and heading away any high balls.
The three of them are pure defenders, not bothered with any on the ball ability, and just excelled in destructive interceptions, tackles and one on ones.
Bian Rosengren was the brawn and steel, hand-picked by Raynor to bring defensive stability to this side. After one game he was made a captain which shows just how successful he was in bringing balance to this side.
Because i prefer him as false 9 and his movement would open space for the likes of Cubillas, Julinho and Kaiser. Other then that, there really is not much difference in the way he would play on either position, his job is to float around opponents half and combine with others like he did for Hungary.
Im a bit surprised so many are questioning that partnership as its a such a natural fit of a inside forward and false nine.....the only explanation would be that everyone is thinking about Cubillas from 78' but even he wouldnt be a bad fit. Having a striker in the team would harm this team in many ways, i wouldnt had such a massive upper hand in possession as i have it right now which would harm both my attack and defense.
Attack as they are much better cutting the opponent through possession rather then on quick direct breaks and defense as my weaknesses(Hamrin vs Zhirkov being the obvious one) would be much easier to exploit not to mention Zhirkov would turn from one of the better players on the pitch to one of the worst.
Sweden and Raynor continued to overperform after losing Grenoli. The 1950 World Cup and 1952 Olympics were just spectacular performances by a team that was led by the captain and defensive beast Erik Nilsson(and in 1950 also Nacka Skoglund and Sune Andersson.) As they retired the 1954 side had lost their 5 best players due to the ban of professionals which kept Grenoli and Skoglund out.
Instead they had entered a transitional phase with a young Bergmark, Hamrin and Gustavsson developing as players. Raynor left the side and later returned to lead the team during the infamous 1958 as well.
