Smart Motorways - Stupid idea?

Sassy Colin

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Sandikan

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Occasional spells without a hard shoulder is one thing, but occasional spells WITH a hard shoulder/emergency area, is just asking for utter carnage.

Imagine the pants browning of breaking down on a live lane of a motorway. And knowing the RAC/AA won't come anywhere near until the lane is shut off, which could be on a bridge 10miles back or so, meaning a sh!tload of potential cars storming towards you.
Shuddering thought really.
 

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Hasn't it been proven that motorways have greater capacity, can simply move more vehicles, if speed limits are dropped and enforced? Should forget about smart motorways and make them all maximum 50 mph. Colin agrees, I'm sure.
 

sun_tzu

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Hasn't it been proven that motorways have greater capacity, can simply move more vehicles, if speed limits are dropped and enforced? Should forget about smart motorways and make them all maximum 50 mph. Colin agrees, I'm sure.
I know people in highways England who are adamant that in the next decade or two all cars will be chipped and when it says 50 it will limit cars to that
It sounds quite far fetched but with cars able to drive themselves it probably isn't that hard to enforce

I do wonder how bad congestion might get if they turn all smart lanes into hard shoulders ... And of course the other option is to build a hard shoulder alongside which would mean years of roadworks again on sections that have had years of roadworks
 

NinjaFletch

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They're an absolute nightmare and driving on the M25 with people speeding between the gantries and then slamming on the breaks can be doing nothing good for accident rates.
 

11101

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It was always a fecking stupid idea.
This. Hard shoulders are dangerous enough as it is. Whoever thought it would be a good idea to switch them with active lanes needs stringing up.


It's yet another one where anybody with an ounce of common sense could tell you it wouldn't work, but some idiot in government went ahead with it anyway and cost us billions in the process.
 

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From what I read the ex-minister who gave the approval for spending millions on Smart Motorways was on the committee that has reported that they are unsafe. You couldn't make it up unless you write Yes, Minister for the Beeb.
 

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Hasn't it been proven that motorways have greater capacity, can simply move more vehicles, if speed limits are dropped and enforced? Should forget about smart motorways and make them all maximum 50 mph. Colin agrees, I'm sure.
Yep, on the stretch I do from Reading to London they introduced a bus lane as temporary test which took away a lane from cars and reduced everyone to 50 mph. There was a huge uproar about this due to the increased amount of time it was taking to commute. So much so they took away the bus lane after a few months. When the stats came out average travel time was actually quicker throughout with the 50 mph speed limit than before or after.

On another note I'm worried...literally that whole 40 miles is being converted into smart motorway with an advertised finish date of 2022 and the whole section now being roadworks. I'm guessing we're now talking about roadworks until 2028 until they make a decision.
 
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Balljy

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This. Hard shoulders are dangerous enough as it is. Whoever thought it would be a good idea to switch them with active lanes needs stringing up.


It's yet another one where anybody with an ounce of common sense could tell you it wouldn't work, but some idiot in government went ahead with it anyway and cost us billions in the process.
To be fair it does work - the congestion on the M4 / M5 interchange at Bristol and M42 is hugely reduced since the smart motorways were brought in. Is it worth the risk though...I'm doubtful.
 

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To be fair it does work - the congestion on the M4 / M5 interchange at Bristol and M42 is hugely reduced since the smart motorways were brought in. Is it worth the risk though...I'm doubtful.
Yeah it has been better going on the M6 from Stoke on Trent to Manchester but if it costs more lives then it is a no no from me.
 

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Having had the experience of braking down on an extremely busy three lane road without a hard-shoulder to pull into is probably the scariest time I've had behind the wheel. The vulnerability that we felt is absolutely horrible and something I'd not wish on anyone.
 

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It's insanity. Can't imagine how scary it would be to break down on one. Imagine having your full family in the car and having to get them all out or just sit there waiting in the middle of a lane with your loved ones in the back.
 

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I'm glad people have clocked on, I do a lot of motorway driving and said from the start it was a fecking terrible idea to take away the hard shoulders. Also I actually don't mind when the speed drops to help things flow, it works a lot, but it's frustrating when it's so slow to change back and you are crawling along for no reason.
 

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It was always a mental idea. It's quite incredible and worrying that it was signed off in the first place.
 

hp88

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Having had the experience of braking down on an extremely busy three lane road without a hard-shoulder to pull into is probably the scariest time I've had behind the wheel. The vulnerability that we felt is absolutely horrible and something I'd not wish on anyone.
Had a moment last year when I lost all power on the outside lane of the M25, managed to move across to first lane and just about made it onto some sort of refuge area. Recovery was a nightmare as well !
 

r3idy

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Utterly moronic idea. Smart motorways and 4 lane motorways turn a 3 lane motorway with 2 lanes dominated by trucks to a 4 lane motorway dominating 3 lanes with trucks. What would be a REAL Smart idea would be cars in the day and let the trucks have the motorway at night and utilise it 24 hours.
 

0le

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Never heard of smart motorways but reading some of the articles, it sounds like a terrible idea.

Instead of removing hard shoulders, why not invest money on fixing the potholes, building new roads or continuing other infrastructure investment projects like electrification projects on the rail to improve their reliability.
 

11101

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One of the lesser talked about reasons for the smart roads is to set up the motorway infrastructure for driverless trucks. Once we are conditioned to stay out of lanes when told, it's an easy step to reserve a lane for them. It's 5-10 years away imo.
 

sun_tzu

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Utterly moronic idea. Smart motorways and 4 lane motorways turn a 3 lane motorway with 2 lanes dominated by trucks to a 4 lane motorway dominating 3 lanes with trucks. What would be a REAL Smart idea would be cars in the day and let the trucks have the motorway at night and utilise it 24 hours.
Then trucks can only be unloaded at nights... And then we can only build stuff... Transport cars... Operate warehouses etc at night
I'm not sure that's a REAL smart idea to be honest?
 

Sassy Colin

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One of the lesser talked about reasons for the smart roads is to set up the motorway infrastructure for driverless trucks. Once we are conditioned to stay out of lanes when told, it's an easy step to reserve a lane for them. It's 5-10 years away imo.
Seriously?

This bollocks is costing billions, so that something that hasn't been invented yet can use part of the road?

Where did you get this from, any source?
 

11101

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Seriously?

This bollocks is costing billions, so that something that hasn't been invented yet can use part of the road?

Where did you get this from, any source?
It's well known. It's not the only or even the main reason but it is a reason. Driverless cars/trucks won't be able to mix with other traffic for a long time yet and need reserved lanes to operate.

Balfour Beatty who are building some of the roads refer to it here:
https://www.balfourbeatty.com/news/...nture-unveils-self-driving-trucks-on-the-a14/
 

Sassy Colin

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It's well known. It's not the only or even the main reason but it is a reason. Driverless cars/trucks won't be able to mix with other traffic for a long time yet and need reserved lanes to operate.

Balfour Beatty who are building some of the roads refer to it here:
https://www.balfourbeatty.com/news/...nture-unveils-self-driving-trucks-on-the-a14/
If you have a whole line of driverless trucks, nose to tail on the 'hard shoulder' you will be totally fecked if you break down. Would only work in the outside lane, I suppose.
 

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Yep, on the stretch I do from Reading to London they introduced a bus lane as temporary test which took away a lane from cars and reduced everyone to 50 mph. There was a huge uproar about this due to the increased amount of time it was taking to commute. So much so they took away the bus lane after a few months. When the stats came out average travel time was actually quicker throughout with the 50 mph speed limit than before or after.

On another note I'm worried...literally that whole 40 miles is being converted into smart motorway with an advertised finish date of 2022 and the whole section now being roadworks. I'm guessing we're now talking about roadworks until 2028 until they make a decision.
The evolution of the car industry over the next 30 years is going to be pretty interesting. It seems inevitable that all cars will end up being driverless. But you have to wonder where that leaves the performance and exotic car market. As somebody who lives driving but also is incredibly busy, I can both see the advantages from a productivity standpoint of not having to drive anymore, but also the sadness of losing a great joy in life. I’ve always had Performance cars, but I know my next one will probably be my last. You have to wonder how car markers are going to bring about this cultural shift.

One thing that never gets talked about in these conversations is the untold value of data. A lot of newer vehicles, particularly Tesla, are constantly streaming data back. This is going to increase exponentially. A likely evolution is that many people will not own a car, they will car share, and have a vehicle show up at their house at a particular time and shuttle them to work. For those that do own vehicles, I know for a fact that internal development of these vehicles is focused around them having automated tasks while the user is not present. For example, your car will drive you to work, and then it will go off and pick up your dry cleaning, etc., and meet you back at it’s designated point. I say this because I have inside knowledge of what the strategic intent is. And those involved are most excited about the scope and detail of data collected as people’s cars perform more of their day to day tasks for them.

It’s always funny to me reading these threads about traffic and driving. I’ve lived in the US for 17 years now, and I can tell you that the traffic system out here is so much worse than back at home. Firstly, there is virtually no driving test. I got my license without having a single lesson. I truly had no clue how to drive, and I still passed. And that was in California which is stricter than many states. Consequently, when you are on the roads here, it’s obvious that no one has a clue what they are doing. On the motorways, you’ll have five lanes of cars all driving at the same speed but tons of space in front of them. No one moved over to let you pass, there is no such thing as a fast lane. You can “undertake” as freely as you can overtake. Hence you see cars just weaving from lane to lane. There is just no order at all.
 

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@simonhch

The RTA death rate in the US is about four times that of the UK. It’s another area where the US is a negative outlier among Western nations.
US drivers are fecking shite. Freeways are like Death Race 2000 here in CA.
Yep, exactly right. It’s genuinely dangerous driving here. People tailgate all the time. Cut each other off. There are zero manners. It’s every man for himself. Road rage is out of control. It’s fecking horrible tbh.

People tell me about aggressive drivers in the UK, but every time I come home I am struck by how polite and orderly it all is. And that’s purely because contextually to the US, it’s so much better. It’s the Wild West over here, and added on top of that, people have no clue how to actually drive.
 

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I found the US (California) very polite and low key in comparison to the UK (which is hugely variable) and particularly in comparison to Australia, where the driving is really shit.
 

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I'm ok with smart management of congestion when correctly used in a timely manner (i.e. when there's congestion!!) but don't like the increasing number of cameras that are there just for the sake of it. They slow my journey down significantly and make it more dangerous when drivers slam their brakes on to avoid them.
 

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The pilot worked well because there were safe stopping points for motorists, called emergency safety refuges, on average every 600 metres.

But when the scheme was expanded across the country, the safety refuges were placed further apart - on some sections, they are 2.5 miles apart.
That's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.
 

yumtum

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"It says this will mean on future schemes, motorists should typically reach a stop every 45 seconds at 60mph. The maximum spacing will be one mile."

Not sure if the people who came up with these smart motorways have ever had a blowout, 45 seconds would feel like an eternity, and be extremely dangerous to continue driving at 60mph (more like 40mph so it would take you a minute to get to a safe zone).

And the current distance is 2.5 miles apart? So almost two minutes to get to a safe zone? These things are the opposite of smart!
 

Sassy Colin

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"It says this will mean on future schemes, motorists should typically reach a stop every 45 seconds at 60mph. The maximum spacing will be one mile."

Not sure if the people who came up with these smart motorways have ever had a blowout, 45 seconds would feel like an eternity, and be extremely dangerous to continue driving at 60mph (more like 40mph so it would take you a minute to get to a safe zone).

And the current distance is 2.5 miles apart? So almost two minutes to get to a safe zone? These things are the opposite of smart!
Someone doesn't understand basic maths :houllier:
 

Sassy Colin

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Ah I'm sorry Colin, was having a terrible day and shouldn't have been passive aggressive/aggressive towards you.

Can't apologise enough.
It is idiotic though, the clue is in the name 60 miles per hour, 60 minutes in an hour, how can you reach a stopping point in 45 seconds and have time to slow down? You wonder if the 'journalist' who wrote this has any imagination whatsoever. I thought it was only football 'journalists' who were thick as shit and made stuff up.
 

sun_tzu

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It is idiotic though, the clue is in the name 60 miles per hour, 60 minutes in an hour, how can you reach a stopping point in 45 seconds and have time to slow down? You wonder if the 'journalist' who wrote this has any imagination whatsoever. I thought it was only football 'journalists' who were thick as shit and made stuff up.
Does it not say you will typically get to a stopping point at 45 seconds if driving at 60mph
Then in a seperate sentence it says the maximum distance will be one mile

English is my second language but that seems fairly straightforward
"It says this will mean on future schemes, motorists should typically reach a stop every 45 seconds at 60mph. The maximum spacing will be one mile."