Solskjaer: Winning trophies is more of an ego thing for managers, league position is where true progress is seen

[He'sRaldo]

I get that he could have maybe framed the sentence better, maybe not used the "ego" line at all, and do believe that the club of our size needs to try winning these cups in addition to progression in league, but his bigger point - cups wins is not a definite sign of progression - is 100% correct

So the pertinent question would be: for the teams who have achieved PL and CL glory in recent times, what was the sign of progress for them?

Because it's not finishing in the top 4 for a number of years, nor is it gradually increasing your league standings year on year. Arsenal and Spurs have done both and achieved f.a, while the likes of Chelsea can jump from mid-table to title winners. Even Mourinho crashed down to mid-table after his 2nd place season with us. And according to Ole it's not cup competitions either. So what is the sign of progress we should be looking for?

Is there even a guaranteed measure of progress that one can assuredly say will lead to sustained glory? Or do we need to just task the manager with winning trophies every season, and take each season as it comes?

 

[Cast5]

Who put the ball in the German's net?
Who put the ball in the German's net?
Who put the ball in the German's net?
Ole Gunnar Solskjær...

 

[anant]

So the pertinent question would be: for the teams who have achieved PL and CL glory in recent times, what was the sign of progress for them?

Because it's not finishing in the top 4 for a number of years, nor is it gradually increasing your league standings year on year. Arsenal and Spurs have done both and achieved f.a, while the likes of Chelsea can jump from mid-table to title winners. Even Mourinho crashed down to mid-table after his 2nd place season with us. And according to Ole it's not cup competitions either. So what is the sign of progress we should be looking for?

Is there even a guaranteed measure of progress that one can assuredly say will lead to sustained glory? Or do we need to just task the manager with winning trophies every season, and take each season as it comes?

I genuinely think it's the dominance and ruthlessness in the games you're winning, and the ability to keep going when things aren't going well which is a clearer indicator of progress.

For all the improvement in league position at Arsenal and Spurs, no one ever felt scared of them while playing -certainly not the big teams. Spurs had that one good season, but apart from that, you always thought that they can be beaten.

I think progress is about instilling a sense of fear in your opponents - I think we had that under SAF, we somewhat developed it post lockdown as well when we were scoring 3,4,5 past everyone every week. You can see the fear most teams had when they faced City a couple of years ago, and you saw the shift in players' and manager's attitude when they faced Pool in the last 2 seasons. Basically, ability to twat any team when at your best and ability to get out something when at your worst would be a definite sign of progress.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

I genuinely think it's the dominance and ruthlessness in the games you're winning, and the ability to keep going when things aren't going well which is a clearer indicator of progress.

For all the improvement in league position at Arsenal and Spurs, no one ever felt scared of them while playing -certainly not the big teams. Spurs had that one good season, but apart from that, you always thought that they can be beaten.

I think progress is about instilling a sense of fear in your opponents - I think we had that under SAF, we somewhat developed it post lockdown as well when we were scoring 3,4,5 past everyone every week. You can see the fear most teams had when they faced City a couple of years ago, and you saw the shift in players' and manager's attitude when they faced Pool in the last 2 seasons. Basically, ability to twat any team when at your best and ability to get out something when at your worst would be a definite sign of progress.

With that being said, despite the likely move from 3rd to 2nd would you class this United team as having progressed?

 

[roonster09]

The other context is we're about to enter a period which could potentially knock us out of 2 cup competitions, extending the manager's trophyless reign to 3 years. There's no way that's not playing on his mind, hence his quotes trying to cover all the bases.

And at this point what Ole says isn't as important as him showing results. If he wins Europa he can downplay cups all he wants, and of course if he loses it will be harder to sell progress if we can't even win the 2nd tier competition we crashed into. Bottom line being he needs to win this competition, or at least reach the final.

Bottom line is people should start reading full interviews along with questions asked, to get proper context of what was said.

 

[anant]

With that being said, despite the likely move from 3rd to 2nd would you class this United team as having progressed?

Definitely, no question about that.

People seem to forget that we've lost just 2 games all season, are the 2nd highest scorers in the league and are doing this in a jam-packed season without the depth of City.

Also, I think no team has had more 3+ goal hauls in the league this year than us, our defence (first 3 games apart hasn't been as bad as people make out), and last 1-1.5 seasons apart, we've not dropped points to teams that we shouldn't be dropping points to as well

 

[Grinner]

For Wigan, I'd say it is. They're never going to challenge for bigger trophies and they were never going to be a permanent top-flight club anyway. Winning the FA Cup is as good as it gets for a club like theirs.

I'd think winning the Championship and promotion would be pretty special. You get a trophy for that too....in fact it's much nicer than the nasty pot that you get for the EPL.

 

[Halftrack]

But yes, I’m mad about things he hasn’t said

Yes, because you keep yammering on about him saying he doesn't care about or wants to bin off the cups. He said nothing of the sort.

He doesn't say cups are an ego thing, he says they can be. I think it's fairly obvious that he's talking about when you eschew long term gain for success in the short term.

It's ironic that you think I need clarification when you're the one who's quoting him directly and still manage to completely mirepresent his comments. It's almost as if you're being dishonest or something.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

Yes, because you keep yammering on about him saying he doesn't care about or wants to bin off the cups. He said nothing of the sort.

I literally clarified my grievances in my last post, embrace the point in it’s entirety or move on.

You claim I misrepresent his comments like the typical Caftard that acts like they know him personally; where does he mention ‘long term gain for success in the short term.’? Oh yes he doesn’t but instead of taking his quotes on face value let’s discuss what you as a Caf ITK eschew from another set of thoughtless quotes.

I’m a club fan on a forum - I don’t see why having an opinion is dishonest. I have my opinion on his comments which I’ve gone as far as to clarify as you’re hard of reading yet you want to position me in a way that suits your view.

He doesn't say cups are an ego thing, he says they can be.

For someone who is so good at reading between the lines & knowing what the man means although he doesn’t actually say it, it’s rather disingenuous to ignore the fact these comments can be interpreted in a number of ways, not all positive.

 

[#07]

Ole's seen so much talk about Pochettino taking his job that he's started to talk like Pochettino to confuse the Ole outs!

Honestly, Ole talks a lot of nonsense in his press conferences. Sanchez will come back, Smalling will surprise us, I want Ashley Young to stay forever etc. This was yet more rubbish from him.

I think what he wanted to say was that if he finishes 5th this season and wins the FA Cup he'll be sacked like Van Gaal, because United judge managers on league positions and the goal is to win the league. However, he didn't work out his lines beforehand and ended up coming out with a bunch of garbage.

In fairness he did, kinda, correct himself and say we want to win every game and if we do that trophies will come. But he ended up sounded pretty muddled and a bit silly. Of course trophies matter. I fancy he'll practice some answers to the 'progress' questions in private a bit more before he goes into his next presser.

 

[Eriku]

He took over us in 6th place & we finished 6th. We had a fantastic start under him & a horrific finish. That’s a fact. How is this personal? Nothing I have said about him is personal. I called him a cowardly manager, that’s not personal it’s a criticism of his managerial style. If I called him a cowardly man that would be personal. If I commented on his appearance that would be personal. Nothing I have ever said about him is personal.

You know you can have personal reasons for trashing someone even if you never say anything personal?

Anyway, Ole getting us in contention for a top four spot at all was near-miraculous, and it was essentially a very weak DDG and lousy conditioning in the squad which had us lose out. To bring up his placing 6 as some sort of evidence of him being underwhelming is disingenuous.

Also, you are ridiculously vocal. You and GoldTrafford99 are two sides of the same coin, and do nothing for nuanced discussion on here. Sorry to be so blunt.

 

[Majima]

In theory, I agree with the essence of what Ole said. What cups are important for is building a confident winning mentality in pressure situations, acting as a springboard for future success. Which looking at our 3 semi losses last season, swift CL groups exit from 1st and another quick plummet from 1st this season, we are dreadfully lacking. A trophy will be huge for us. If at the end of this week and we're out of both cups, without doubt the whole club will be gutted.

I also believe being 2nd this season is not proof that we're ready either. The league position can easily give you a false standing too, same as Mourinho's 2nd place. I think there's an element of that with us. Liverpool are a shell from last season, Chelsea had Lampard etc. What I focus on is that we still play counter-attack football vs. anyone half decent. Crucially, the team still doesn't know what to do vs. passive opponents, looking clueless on the ball the vast majority of the time, seen in our seven 0-0's so far. Look at our top 6 record this season now that they've stopped leaving so much space. We're 6/6 with 8 points from 8 matches, behind Chelsea that sacked Lampard.

Lastly, I think it's fair to say we don't instill any fear in our opponents. So until that happens, I don't see this supposed progress. I don't see any proof that we're likely to mount a title challenge next season at all. I think it's far more likely that we revert back to fighting for top 4 instead.

 

[bosnian_red]

It's true but you still need him to go for the cups, which he does. Pochettino is different in that he full on sacrificed other cup competitions to get a steady top 4 spot. There shouldn't ever really be a "you must win trophy " requirement and if not you get sacked. Too many variables that can impact. Over a period of a few years, sure. But not for individual seasons. League finish is different and tracks your year to year improvement better.

 

[VP89]

I just don't see your point. Semi's, 2nd etc etc. It just makes no sense.

What do you mean it makes no sense?

LVG and Mourinho won cups without being tested anywhere near as Ole has been this year alone in when in the FA Cup for example. They have a trophy to show for it because their run was generous. Ole doesn't (yet) despite having harder teams.

So in what world should the former managers be evaluated as doing a better job or showing more progression? They've both gone in for one season of top 4 then dropped out of it. Whereas Ole is likely to improve league standing year on year thus far.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Overall, it was a thoroughly uninteresting read. Hard to believe it's getting such a reaction on here, but it's all the familiar faces who just love a pro or anti Ole debate.

 

[Ludens the Red]

It’s fairly obvious league progress shows more. But downplaying cup wins as an ‘ego’ thing is slightly laughable. You’d have to wonder if it’s him trying to downplay the significance in case we get knocked out.
All the most successful sides win cups too. In comes hand in hand. Winning big knockout games and finals is an indication of a mentally strong team. You’d think he would know this. Our last great side won 3 league cups and got to three CL finals. Look at the current Man City team, or the Barcelona team of 2009-2012. Sometimes saying nothing is the better Route to take.