Suedesi
Full Member
People seem to have a hard time separating Ole the player from Ole the manager. As a player he was a cult hero, a legend. As a manager he treaded water for 3 years.
The club has won three champions league titles and he scored the winner in one of those. Forlan and Chicharito are fan favorites. Ole with more than a 100 goals for the club is safely a legend.I don't rate Ole as a legend, he was a fan favourite without a doubt but legend is to much in my view.
Legends for me are Sir Bobby Charlton, George Best, Cantona, Ryan Giggs, Scholes, Rooney, Keane, Rio, Schmeichel...
I don't rate Ole at that level to be honest.
Probably because it's not true.Generally far more aesthetically pleasing football than Mourinho or Van Gaal (I am always shocked when I see people arguing otherwise)
This. Largely agree.The good:
- Consecutive top 4 finishes (failed by David Moyes, Jose Mourinho and Louis Van Gaal)
- Top 4 finishes where the goakeeper didn't finish as our player of the year
- Memorable signings such as Ronaldo, Bruno Fernandes, Cavani unlike the forgettable, deadwood players from Louis Van Gaal's era
- Generally far more aesthetically pleasing football than Mourinho or Van Gaal (I am always shocked when I see people arguing otherwise)
- The return of multiple players capbale of scoring 10 or more league goals in a season (yep, it really was that bad under Mourinho and Van Gaal!!)
The bad:
Failure to win a trophy - even Mourinho and Van Gaal acomplished this (negated by dross football and/or pretty meaningless trophies in my opinion)
An absolutely shambolic season this year.
His football was awful even in the season where we finished second in my opinion. I remember just watching dead matches where the players would just lump it up to Lukaku and Ibrahimovic. The guy couldn't even get 2 players to score 10 or more league goals a season. That's how bad it was.Probably because it's not true.
We played better football in Jose's first 18 months than we did for any extended period under Ole.
Yeah it's like they're the same person or something.People seem to have a hard time separating Ole the player from Ole the manager. As a player he was a cult hero, a legend. As a manager he treaded water for 3 years.
In Jose's first and second seasons the football went dogshit after Xmas both seasons. In fact apart from the first few months of 17-18 the football from an entertainment point of view wasn't much of a step up from LVG ball.Probably because it's not true.
We played better football in Jose's first 18 months than we did for any extended period under Ole.
We created loads in that first season. Zlatan should have had 30 goals. Our best XG differentials came in games where we drew where we were almost laughably wasteful.His football was awful even in the season where we finished second in my opinion. I remember just watching dead matches where the players would just lump it up to Lukaku and Ibrahimovic. The guy couldn't even get 2 players to score 10 or more league goals a season. That's how bad it was.
It's a matter of opinion, I don't held him in such high regard. I think having 20-30 "legend status" players diminish the title. Im more of a "selective" kind of guy.The club has won three champions league titles and he scored the winner in one of those. Forlan and Chicharito are fan favorites. Ole with more than a 100 goals for the club is safely a legend.
I’m sorry, I genuinely feel for people like you. You’ve misinterpreted my words beyond belief.On your one visit to Old Trafford did you notice the Alex Ferguson Statue outside the East stand, the entire north stand that is named after him or the massive tribute banner in that stand?
You're just proving my point; you shouldn't conflate the two rolesYeah it's like they're the same person or something.
Downplaying actual trophies has to be the most ridiculous thing doing here recently. Top 4 finishes also aren't a feat on their own. If they were we'd be weighing it against the embarrassing CL campaign it came with. "Yipee we qualified for the CL then quickly ended up in the europa league a couple months later. Top 4 whoop whoop. Progress". This is the monumental feat you're putting ahead of winning actual freaking silverware.The good:
- Consecutive top 4 finishes (failed by David Moyes, Jose Mourinho and Louis Van Gaal)
- Top 4 finishes where the goakeeper didn't finish as our player of the year
- Memorable signings such as Ronaldo, Bruno Fernandes, Cavani unlike the forgettable, deadwood players from Louis Van Gaal's era
- Generally far more aesthetically pleasing football than Mourinho or Van Gaal (I am always shocked when I see people arguing otherwise)
- The return of multiple players capbale of scoring 10 or more league goals in a season (yep, it really was that bad under Mourinho and Van Gaal!!)
The bad:
Failure to win a trophy - even Mourinho and Van Gaal acomplished this (negated by dross football and/or pretty meaningless trophies in my opinion)
An absolutely shambolic season this year.
Where you finish in the league table is a barometer for progress as much as any other.Downplaying actual trophies has to be the most ridiculous thing doing here recently. Top 4 finishes also aren't a feat on their own. If they were we'd be weighing it against the embarrassing CL campaign it came with. "Yipee we qualified for the CL then quickly ended up in the europa league a couple months later. Top 4 whoop whoop. Progress". This is the monumental feat you're putting ahead of winning actual freaking silverware.
and we were 8th on the table when he was sacked, which was 2 places worse than where Jose left us. How's that for progress barometers?Where you finish in the league table is a barometer for progress as much as any other.
How you finish in the league is the real barometer.Where you finish in the league table is a barometer for progress as much as any other.
The Unforgivable:The good:
- Consecutive top 4 finishes (failed by David Moyes, Jose Mourinho and Louis Van Gaal)
- Top 4 finishes where the goakeeper didn't finish as our player of the year
- Memorable signings such as Ronaldo, Bruno Fernandes, Cavani unlike the forgettable, deadwood players from Louis Van Gaal's era
- Generally far more aesthetically pleasing football than Mourinho or Van Gaal (I am always shocked when I see people arguing otherwise)
- The return of multiple players capbale of scoring 10 or more league goals in a season (yep, it really was that bad under Mourinho and Van Gaal!!)
The bad:
Failure to win a trophy - even Mourinho and Van Gaal acomplished this (negated by dross football and/or pretty meaningless trophies in my opinion)
An absolutely shambolic season this year.
So you have an emotional connection as strong as anyone, if not more, to our legends but you don't understand why Ole gets this "extra" tribute? Right, carry on.You need to improve your reading comprehension. You haven’t properly addressed a single point I made, so I’ll spell it out again.
Ole is getting a banner displayed in the Stretty in his first home game after leaving, for what, I’m not too sure. Did Fergie get one in that 0-0 draw against Chelsea in 2013? No, I thought as much. Fergie’s banners are those plastered on to the stand in recognition for his achievements, and deservedly so. Funnily enough, Ole also has one for what he did as a player.
Also, Ole’s achievements as a player have been celebrated time and time again in the multitude of songs dedicated to him, and we will continue to sing about May 1999, as we should. He is still a legend. Will we keep singing about LvG or Mourinho? No, because they are not legends. However, why is Ole getting this extra tribute when they didn’t after their respective sackings? Both won more trophies than Ole, even if Mourinho did shit talk the club, which should have had him sacked after that Sevilla game, the one good point you made. Mourinho also won 2.5 trophies and got 2nd place too.
Also, what does ‘regular fans’ mean? I genuinely do not understand so please elaborate. I can assure you that I have as much, if not more, emotional connection to our legends as anyone, so don’t worry about that. Forget the bona fide legends, I still have loads of affiliation for the likes of Rafael, Park and even Dan James, simply for always representing us with passion.
Also, the Lampard thing is different. Lampard is to them what Sir Bobby Charlton is to us.
This gets brought up a lot, probably because there were a couple of memorably wasteful games that season - Burnley at home probably the standout - but it isn't really true.We created loads in that first season. Zlatan should have had 30 goals. Our best XG differentials came in games where we drew where we were almost laughably wasteful.
Thanks for your concern mate but no need I'm fine. I was simply pointing out nonsense.I’m sorry, I genuinely feel for people like you. You’ve misinterpreted my words beyond belief.
I was half joking but out of interest can you give me an example of someone conflating the roles?You're just proving my point; you shouldn't conflate the two roles
I dunno, maybe half the CAF up til 2-3 months ago when discussing Ole the manager with such misty eyed sentimentality and nostalgiaI was half joking but out of interest can you give me an example of someone conflating the roles?
I don't know if that was down to people conflating the role of a player that retired in 2008 and a manager that took over in 2019.I dunno, maybe half the CAF up til 2-3 months ago when discussing Ole the manager with such misty eyed sentimentality and nostalgia
It's simple - if he hadn't played for us, he'd never even be in the running to manage Man Utd full time. He certainly wasn't qualified to!I don't know if that was down to people conflating the role of a player that retired in 2008 and a manager that took over in 2019.
I agree with you on the bolded, but for me, i watched that 99 final with 6 of my mates who are Anti-United, when Ole scored that winner, I celebrated Simone style if you what I mean, in front of those 6 haters, so for me I see Ole as a United legendIt's a matter of opinion, I don't held him in such high regard. I think having 20-30 "legend status" players diminish the title. Im more of a "selective" kind of guy.
Always liked Ole as a player, but as I said I just don't rate him that high.
I think many who never saw him play only see him as the manager who failed. Wonder if the same would have happened if it was Cantona or someone similar of even greater status at the club was in his position.Wonder how many questioning whether or not Soslkjaer is a club legend came to this realisation before or after the last 18-24 months. Doubt many thought about it before 2019.
I might be biased or misremembering but I really feel like before Ole the overwhelming opinion here was that "ultimately trophies are what matter". The mocking of Arsenal for "top-4 trophy" was constant. Yes, caf turned mostly against LvG and Jose in the end due to style of football and not good enough results, but the fact that even in post-Fergie slump we won trophies was the source of pride and the stick used to beat fans of other well performing but tropheyless clubs like Spurs. Then under Ole suddenly a large portion of fans started bigging up "consecutive top4 finishes" trophyDownplaying actual trophies has to be the most ridiculous thing doing here recently. Top 4 finishes also aren't a feat on their own. If they were we'd be weighing it against the embarrassing CL campaign it came with. "Yipee we qualified for the CL then quickly ended up in the europa league a couple months later. Top 4 whoop whoop. Progress". This is the monumental feat you're putting ahead of winning actual freaking silverware.
At least Jose and LVG had a method to their dull football that showed when we needed to win finals matches. Ole's stagnant football had no such redeeming moments. Oh yea except achieveing top 4 for the Glazers pockets. Whoop whoop I guess.
LvG was sacked after WINNING a final. So of course you can.Be realisstic. You can't sack someone for losing a final. There was multiple times to sack him a long the course of his tenure - but that's not it. IF anything he probably should have been sacked for dropping out of the Champions League so limply.
True sayLvG was sacked after WINNING a final. So of course you can.
Yep no doubt age plays a part. Even Fergie could have come out of retirement and he would have got the same abuse from some if he hadn't won anything.I think many who never saw him play only see him as the manager who failed. Wonder if the same would have happened if it was Cantona or someone similar of even greater status at the club was in his position.
But couldn't you separate Fergie 2013 from Fergie 2021? Dedicating a statue and a stand to Fergie 2013 is one thing but any "extra" tributes to Fergie 2021?Yep no doubt age plays a part. Even Fergie could have come out of retirement and he would have got the same abuse from some if he hadn't won anything.
"You're fired for not being good enough at your job, but here's a going away party to make you feel better."So you have an emotional connection as strong as anyone, if not more, to our legends but you don't understand why Ole gets this "extra" tribute? Right, carry on.
Perhaps but the club have done that several times now post Ferguson.It's simple - if he hadn't played for us, he'd never even be in the running to manage Man Utd full time. He certainly wasn't qualified to!
Came in steadied the ship, got rid of a load of deadwood, built a good squad, was good in the league but ultimately fell short in the latter stages of cup competitions.How do you view his legacy as Man Utd manager?
Yep no more banners they're embarrassing according to some.But couldn't you separate Fergie 2013 from Fergie 2021? Dedicating a statue and a stand to Fergie 2013 is one thing but any "extra" tributes to Fergie 2021?
I hate when people use this as a good thing he did.. any manager worth his stuff would've gotten rid of the dead wood. It's always been clear as day who is good enough and who isn't, and just a matter of signing players (which the club gave him power to do) and selling/benching others.Came in steadied the ship, got rid of a load of deadwood, built a good squad, was good in the league but ultimately fell short in the latter stages of cup competitions.
For me he did a decent job before this season but after the start to this season had to go. Should really have been replaced a month before he was.
Fully agreed, additionally whenever I see any good records we had under him it just makes me wonder just how much more we could have achieved with a better coach.It's simple - if he hadn't played for us, he'd never even be in the running to manage Man Utd full time. He certainly wasn't qualified to!
He didn't get a job on the basis of his CV, or specific achievements in the game, he was appointed to fix the toxic mood because of some particular set of circumstances. Did alright in the interim period, his pals in the media bigged him up and applied pressure for him to get the job, Woodpecker relented and that was it.
Going forward, neither pundits nor fans used an objective lens in assessing his coaching/managing which was mediocre at best (with nonsense arguments like "away record" or "2nd in the league", conveniently ignoring the repeated failures to win a trophy, the record in Europe and the fact that Liverpool had no defence last year whereas Chelsea put all their eggs in winning the CL basket).
How do you view his legacy as Man Utd manager?