Static midfield vs Static forwards

Commadus

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The raging debate is that the forwards do not get enough service from the midfield or the forwards movement is poor.

If you lool at our last game against rangers we had perhaps our most talented midfield in terms of passing and skill

Giggs Scholes Carrick Nani

Our most talented forwards - Berbatov and Rooney

I know Rangers came out to defend and sit back but I was more interested in the general movement of the team which is where I think some of the issue lie.

1) When Scholes and Carrick play. Scholes plays deeper, now Carrick is encouraged to play further forward something he is adapting to. Carrick has always been better sitting deep and making the play from there now he has to play a more forward midfield role and at times get past the front men -something which he is working on and perhaps has caused his slump in form?

2) Nani likes to come inside which congest the central areas at times. Now if our wingers like to come inside we need fullbacks to move up past them. This happens when Evra and Rafek plays but not ofetn enough when Brown and Oshea play.

3) Berba likes to drop deep but now he also has Nani trying to occupy a similar position (perhaps why berba is noticebly berating Nani quite often?). This area about 30- 40 yards from goal is congested so Berba goes out wide which is not his strength or where he can affect the game as much.

4) This then leaves our other striker up front on his own against the back four and islotaed. This would not be a problem if we have a midfielder pushing on pas the front man - something we do not have.

5) The overall result is we have lots of possession in the middle of the park but little penetration at times because we have a congested central area and then only on forward available on the end of crosses.

6) When Park and Nani played - both of whom lke to come inside our performance was woeful but it was the strikers who were affected the most because as highloighted above- Berba was marginalised either wide or in congested middle and Hernandez was left alone up front.
 

Rowem

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I love Valencia because he is always an option on the right and he'll run outside his fullback all day long. The team definitely has a better balance with him on the right and Nani on the left.

Rooney's strength, movement and directness will also help breaking down defensive sides. Macheda is showing these signs as well, albeit only as an impact sub so far.

Centre midfield still lacks a bit of balance. I'd be happy with a solid Carrick-Fletcher combo so long as the front four are firing, but if they aren't then Carrick-Fletcher look uncreative.
 

Pogue Mahone

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I said at the time that the Rangers game was interesting because we had Carrick and Scholes on top of their game in midfield (the roles within our team most often blamed for a bad performance) but we still lacked something going forwards.

I agree with the point(s) about a lack of width being a problem at times this season (and last).
 

Fiskey

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I said at the time that the Rangers game was interesting because we had Carrick and Scholes on top of their game in midfield (the roles within our team most often blamed for a bad performance) but we still lacked something going forwards.

I agree with the point(s) about a lack of width being a problem at times this season (and last).
Yeah, as I've argued elsewhere I think our centre midfield gets a tough rap, simply because they don't have sexy names imo.
 

peterstorey

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I said at the time that the Rangers game was interesting because we had Carrick and Scholes on top of their game in midfield (the roles within our team most often blamed for a bad performance) but we still lacked something going forwards.
I don't think they were that great since Rangers dropped off and gave them a lot of the ball. Carrick was workmanlike but Scholes in particular despite a couple of nice diagonal balls didn't create much around the edge of the box.
 

Godfather

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I don't think they were that great since Rangers dropped off and gave them a lot of the ball. Carrick was workmanlike but Scholes in particular despite a couple of nice diagonal balls didn't create much around the edge of the box.
Have to agree.
They were good, but nowhere near excellent.
 

Devil may care

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I think we are certainly missing an attacking/creative piece in midfield but one of the big issues is we haven't gotten to play a settled strike partnership with a settled midfield partnership all season. If we had that it would lead to a better rhythm and understanding between our midfield and strikers which may not be the complete answer but it would improve things.
 

CnutOfAllCnuts

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Never liked Carrick and Scholes together in a midfield two. The midfield lack a required grit and pressure on the ball, and it is too easy to pass through our midfield then. With those two we are also missing someone willing to run at the opposition back four with the ball, something Giggs (from the middle) does, Anderson can do and to a lesser extent Fletcher does.

They are fine playing together when we play with a midfield 3.
 

Sojiro

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Never liked Carrick and Scholes together in a midfield two. The midfield lack a required grit and pressure on the ball, and it is too easy to pass through our midfield then. With those two we are also missing someone willing to run at the opposition back four with the ball, something Giggs (from the middle) does, Anderson can do and to a lesser extent Fletcher does.

They are fine playing together when we play with a midfield 3.
The penalty came after scholes was substituted, which moved carrick deeper and let anderson push forward.

Not that scholesy wouldnt have been able to spot that run but I think anderson moving forward and moving the defenders around did help.
 

Snow

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Yeah, as I've argued elsewhere I think our centre midfield gets a tough rap, simply because they don't have sexy names imo.
Nani is a sexy name:confused:
It means 'what' in Japanese. And I think it's mostly a girls name.

Fletcher is almost feltcher. Someone probably finds that kind of sexy.
 

Snow

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We don't have a lot of first touch football going on and we aren't very quick going forward. I've noticed that we don't create a whole lot when the full backs aren't participating in attack. Evra/Fabio/Rafael are therefor very important for our attack.

The problem with our midfield is that it isn't very mobile as such. Scholes and Carrick move about in that same radius more or less. Fletcher tends to run around more but his effectiveness in attack is limited from the midfield.
 

johnmufc

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Never liked Carrick and Scholes together in a midfield two. The midfield lack a required grit and pressure on the ball, and it is too easy to pass through our midfield then. With those two we are also missing someone willing to run at the opposition back four with the ball, something Giggs (from the middle) does, Anderson can do and to a lesser extent Fletcher does.

They are fine playing together when we play with a midfield 3.
Really? Never? They were a pretty great pairing in 06/07 and indeed won us the Champions League in 07/08. Of course Scholes, and to a lesser extent Carrick, are different players these days but the game against Rangers and the Community Shield against Chelsea prove they can still do the business as a pairing.

The penalty came after scholes was substituted, which moved carrick deeper and let anderson push forward.

Not that scholesy wouldnt have been able to spot that run but I think anderson moving forward and moving the defenders around did help.
It was Carrick's ball to Fabio that won us the penalty.
 

Doevle

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CnutOfAllCnuts;8959439[B said:
]Never liked Carrick and Scholes together in a midfield two.[/B] The midfield lack a required grit and pressure on the ball, and it is too easy to pass through our midfield then. With those two we are also missing someone willing to run at the opposition back four with the ball, something Giggs (from the middle) does, Anderson can do and to a lesser extent Fletcher does.

They are fine playing together when we play with a midfield 3.
Not in 06/07 either?
 

buckooo1978

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to pick on one of the OP original points...

Berbatov seems to really lose his rag with Nani doesn't he...

apart from Bursaspor away when he was a complete bitch he seems supercool

apart from when the vein bulges and he starts waving his arms around in Nani's direction
 

Sojiro

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It was Carrick's ball to Fabio that won us the penalty.
That was partially my point. With Scholes and Carrick, Scholes would have been sitting deeper and carrick pushing forward, instead it was anderson pushing forward and carrick sitting deep.

Probably a bit "six of one, half dozen of the other" type thought but it struck me that anderson's willingness to drive forward pushed the rangers back off of carrick enough for him to spot the run.
 

girish

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The lack of positional awareness between the team members appalling at times.
 

Mr. MUJAC

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Some additional thoughts

1. I agree about the lack of one touch football but you can only do that if players are moving into space which they are not

2. It's hard for the midfield to bomb on into attack when they know they have to also get back quick to nullify any counter attack. Berbatov rarely chases back to help out and while this was once part of Rooney's game (and definitely Tevez) he hasn't looked arsed in recent months. At the moment our forwards are rarely pressing the opponents defence when we don't have the ball.

3. Nani and Berbatov in particular take about five or six touches on the ball without really going anywhere.....this slows the play down and gives the opposition time to regroup. I would like to see Nani take on the fullback and cross it much quicker

4. We rarely shoot from outside the box. If we started doing this two things would happen. The opposition would have to come out and block the shots thus opening up space for a pass through and the shots would be deflected or saved leading to possible rebounds. When was the last time we scored like this?

5. The forwards need to get into the box quicker (I mean really bust a gut bursting forward) when crosses are coming in. Evra recently has been putting some lovely balls into the six yard area with no-one there!

I don't think it is a forward or a midfield thing......I think it is an individual and a team thing. We are not defending as a team and we are attacking as individuals.
 

sajeev

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Some additional thoughts

1. I agree about the lack of one touch football but you can only do that if players are moving into space which they are not

2. It's hard for the midfield to bomb on into attack when they know they have to also get back quick to nullify any counter attack. Berbatov rarely chases back to help out and while this was once part of Rooney's game (and definitely Tevez) he hasn't looked arsed in recent months. At the moment our forwards are rarely pressing the opponents defence when we don't have the ball.

3. Nani and Berbatov in particular take about five or six touches on the ball without really going anywhere.....this slows the play down and gives the opposition time to regroup. I would like to see Nani take on the fullback and cross it much quicker

4. We rarely shoot from outside the box. If we started doing this two things would happen. The opposition would have to come out and block the shots thus opening up space for a pass through and the shots would be deflected or saved leading to possible rebounds. When was the last time we scored like this?

5. The forwards need to get into the box quicker (I mean really bust a gut bursting forward) when crosses are coming in. Evra recently has been putting some lovely balls into the six yard area with no-one there!

I don't think it is a forward or a midfield thing......I think it is an individual and a team thing. We are not defending as a team and we are attacking as individuals.
That is almost spot on, especially with respect to the last month or so
 

Berlinknives

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I said at the time that the Rangers game was interesting because we had Carrick and Scholes on top of their game in midfield (the roles within our team most often blamed for a bad performance) but we still lacked something going forwards.

I agree with the point(s) about a lack of width being a problem at times this season (and last).
Well the Rangers game, United really lacked space and match-fit striker.

It was a difficult game for the attacking six, it wasn't a game united absolutely needed to win. It just seemed to be a hard working display that lacked focus, other than Carrick I don't know any of them that were reading the game that well, unlike you I thought Scholes was hardly top of his game that night, probably around average for him, Carrick played above his average.
 

Berlinknives

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Nani is a sexy name:confused:
It means 'what' in Japanese. And I think it's mostly a girls name.

Fletcher is almost feltcher. Someone probably finds that kind of sexy.
O'Shea is Ice Cube's first name.
 

CptMarvel

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to pick on one of the OP original points...

Berbatov seems to really lose his rag with Nani doesn't he...

apart from Bursaspor away when he was a complete bitch he seems supercool

apart from when the vein bulges and he starts waving his arms around in Nani's direction
In fairness to Berbatov, Nani spends half the game lying on the floor yet it's Berbatov who gets accused of being lazy...