Crazy tbh. I doubt even the finalist of this draft will get a better strike pairing than that even with upgrades.More to do with his all-roundness than with their quality, and even then I'm not sure that it's true.
Agree on Sheva/Raul though, as I already said in the thread I found the criticism of this pairing very strange. It's hard to imagine a significantly better front two in this pool, and they would've complimented each other brilliantly. The "second-striker" debate
Surveillance Draft - R1- Physiocrat vs mazhar13/Enigma_87
- Thread starter green_smiley
- Start date
Thanks for that Pat. I cocked up by picking Baines as my 13th pick. I should have gone for Nani instead but EAP/Viva picked him up first.
Just to clarify my take on Shevchenko and Raul (which will be my last word on the subject). I don't think they couldn't work well, far from it, but that Raul was at his best with a target man and Shevchenko has more freedom to do his thing as a second striker. That was my main point.
I thought Mazhar/Enigma would have won this as Desailly and Giggs typically curry more favour from the voters than their equivalents here. I would say they probably edged the individual quality although I think the perceived Desailly/Silva/Campbell standard gap wasn't borne out in their performances as centre-halves. And there certainly isn't any real preference between Zanetti and Thuram, if anything the Frenchman gets a bit more kudos because of his 1998 impact. Physio seemed a bit cleaner from central midfield through to attack - De Rossi and Modric slightly clearer on their function there as opposed to Vidal/Cocu on the wrong side IMO. I'm not sure if allowances should have been made for Vidal pushing forward as that leaves Cocu a little isolated in midfield.
I thought the Raul/Sheva stuff was overplayed. But then you throw in Silva cutting inside and Vidal coming forward and there started to be some more clutter in the no10 area than ideal. There is a draft voting/manager tendency to under-appreciate all-rounder pairs through the spine of the team, when I often see "no designated DM" or "no clear no9" "no clear stopper/sweeper pairing" etc. If you get good all-rounders, that sort of things becomes irrelevant. For example, it's partly why Keane hasn't been an easy person to fit into draft teams. Meanwhile in this game, Physio's no10 function was a bit clearer and simpler with Riquelme finding width or finishers to aim for. In a tight contest that extra clarity of function arguably made the difference.
I thought the Raul/Sheva stuff was overplayed. But then you throw in Silva cutting inside and Vidal coming forward and there started to be some more clutter in the no10 area than ideal. There is a draft voting/manager tendency to under-appreciate all-rounder pairs through the spine of the team, when I often see "no designated DM" or "no clear no9" "no clear stopper/sweeper pairing" etc. If you get good all-rounders, that sort of things becomes irrelevant. For example, it's partly why Keane hasn't been an easy person to fit into draft teams. Meanwhile in this game, Physio's no10 function was a bit clearer and simpler with Riquelme finding width or finishers to aim for. In a tight contest that extra clarity of function arguably made the difference.
Yeah Cocu is such an intelligent and tactically aware player that it wouldnt be a big issue.
Im off to watch that match anyway, one of the greatest games I've ever seen. Maldini getting ripped apart by Overmars.
I'm still shocked that Holland didn't manage to put the Italians away that day.Yeah Cocu is such an intelligent and tactically aware player that it wouldnt be a big issue.
Im off to watch that match anyway, one of the greatest games I've ever seen. Maldini getting ripped apart by Overmars.
Didn't know we did
Maldini getting ripped apart by Overmars.
I just don't see Signori tracking the full back in the defensive phase in the formation Physio played in this game. It's something that he literally never did from what I've seen of him at Lazio.
If he played in 4-4-2 ala Sacchi (as a wide midfielder) there is a case of him doing that. But then that's a position/role he hated which cost him playing in the biggest game of his career.
Sorry, it was PatBepo who picked him up
Personally i think DavidG has the best strike pairing of the draft with Ronaldo-Bergkamp
Come on mate, Desailly is better than either of the other CB's at CB position. You are talking about one of the best defensive players in the game. Desailly won the CL as a LCB with Marseille against one of the best sides in history and against none other than Marco van Basten. Then he went on becoming one of the best DM's in the game and winning back to back WC and EURO as a CB. Yet he's not a tier above T.Silva and Campbell?
Cocu played from CB to striker yet he's suddenly on the wrong side? Signori was shunted at LW from the 30th minute and Serginho was played as a winger for 30 mins with a three man back line yet you barely got a mention.
I often see Schweini played as a LCM in a double pivot while he clearly preferred the right, yet there is barely (only me) a mention.Shevchenko scored 150 goals while playing as a striker with the likes of Kaka, Tomasson and Rebrov working behind him, yet somehow he won't work well with Raul.
Yeah, good shout, definitely a notch above. But other than that I doubt that anyone will have a better pairing - especially with the first 2 rounds picks being unavailable for the reinforcements.
Say what? Why don't I ever see this clutter when Chile played with Sanchez, Vidal, and Valdivia? Vidal was never one to exclusively hang around the #10 positions anyways. He was more renowned for his late runs into the box getting him goals, and when he was at his most attacking, he was always more of a #8 (a la B2B) than a #10 (a la Valdivia or Silva). I still don't see how that can result in a clutter. Plus, how is it that Raúl can't work with Silva? Silva always preferred the inside right areas, but he wasn't one to get in others' ways, particularly in a Man. City side that had Yaya Touré as a #10 and Agüero in more of a free centre forward role (a la Sheva!!!).
I don't care for lines, it's about how the general gameplay pans out. E.g. you've got a lot of quality upfront, but nothing tat instantly strikes me positively as the Serginho-Signori tandem. I don't clearly see any of your front four particularly setting the world alight in the way they could combine, I only see great players that may or may not work together. Once I bring the fullbacks into it, Silva-Zanetti with Shevchenko in the box looks compelling, but that's it, and no better than Serginho-Signori-Ruud really.
I don't care either who is usually picked first. It's all about being fit for purpose and being up to the job at hand.
Physio's backline (inc. swap I suggested) is exactly what he needs if Serginho is to provide width. It never crossed my mind to compare Zanetti and Thuram, they don't face each other. In physio's team Thuram is what he needed.
Not sure why RVN and Riquelme wouldn't work, could you elaborate? Riquelme made absolute donkeys look like RvN, imagine what he could do with the man himself. We 100% disagree on Signori. Jorgensen is the most underwhelming player on the pitch, but I don't expect him to win the game, just perform a role in a team effort, and I have no reason to believe he can't. I probably rate Pessotto higher than most, but it's not like you have Maldini vs. Chris Eagles there.
I missed all that as I was on a flight. It's for you to try get the agenda back on track, particularly if your rival is just sitting back without a care in the world. For the record, no, I don't like the pair. I can't find anything special about it other than their individual quality.It was really odd match that turned into whether Raul and Sheva will work together and little to no detail to Physio's team.
What? We have a Bergkamp-Ronaldo pairing in this draft and you are saying Raúl-Sheva is better? How exactly?
Aye that is a dreamy duo indeed
Suarez-Shearer should be up there in the mix too!
Yeah of course, that is better.. and Suarez Shearer isn't half bad either. But you get the gist, it was right up there.
Clear roles & clear gameplay vs. a bit of a mumbo jumbo of very good players with no clear way to thread them all together.
Also better, clearly better. Seriously, don't see what so special about a Raúl-Shevchenko combo, how exactly do they add to more than the sum of parts?
Won't really work when the opposition has Giggs who will drag Thuram wide instead of letting him settle in the middle as a three man backline. There's a reason Serginho thrived in that Milan diamond, 4-2-3-1 isn't for him and he's getting way overrated here anyway. Zanetti isn't foreign on how to handle him as he did time and time again. On the other hand his defense is a liability in this context and would be exposed.
You were probably victims of the two man midfield's general lack of appreciation on this forum, just saying. Another thing is that Cocu is one of the most underrated modern footballers i can think of and this might have played its part. The criticism on the attacking duo is absurd, i don't get it either. Sheva could play alongside Crespo, i don't see how he could not play alongside Raul who's creativity and movement in between the lines is superior. And Raul looked fine alongside Morientes for many years, Sheva is definitely an upgrade on the latter. Bottom line is that both players knew how to link up with their partners and find spaces in setups that consisted of two forwards.
I also think you should've talked about the other team's weaknesses more. A high defensive line and a possession game in the other team's half with De Rossi and Riquelme in the midfield when your team is staffed with good passers and excellent runners with the ball...
We did do that. We highlighted the Thuram-Giggs conundrum where Thuram would have to drift out wide. We covered the extra energy and tenacity in our midfield combined with the high quality compared to De Rossi-Modric-Riquelme. We pretty much covered what you stated in the above quoted statement and then some.
Oh well, I guess these draft matches are becoming more football-like now in the nature of their unpredictability. That's good to know.
Serginho / Signori is a tandem I can't really see it happening and working well at all. Yes I know he started as a left winger, but we're using peak players here and at his peak he was central as it gets. He peels left but he's not a winger/left forward in the sense Physio described him as well as tracking back and helping Serginho who is the worst defensive player on the pitch.
I guess you haven't followed the initial formation and discussion. For a good 30 mins of the game he played in a WM formation of some sort with 3 CB's.
With Riquelme you need more runners around him not a fox in the box type. For Signori we 100% disagree. Signori also disagrees being shunt wide himself but if he Physio can get away playing him there fair fecks then.
You got Pessotto vs Jorgensen and defensive role for Thuram. That's the entire right flank which Physio team would operate. Our right back is none other than Zanetti, yet Physio is getting more joy there? You got the worst full back on the pitch in Serginho and the worst winger in Jorgensen, yet they are working better as a team?
Yeah, that's also very disappointing. Cocu was a classy footballer who I always appreciated, and I wished that I could have watched more of him. In fact, I might actually do that tomorrow.
There's a few players who could be in that same Serginho role, some you would rate higher, some lower. The crux of it though is, if your side is set up to have a defensively suspect leftback tasked with providing width in attack, those three are great fits. It's not meant to be a three man backline all game long, just one whose setup acknowledges the leftback is consistently joining the attack.
Really?
Physio had to amend his formation as Signori role wasn't clear from the off.
Then you get this:
all roles are clear I guess?
Yeah and that's a pretty bad tactic here given the opposition will stretch the backline on the other side. Also Man City in the last few years have been sensational in using overlapping fullbacks and especially Silva has combined beautifully with Zabaleta in this exact same role - can only imagine the partnership he will have with Zanetti with all the space Serginho has left behind. That Zanetti-Silva-Sheva axis is a beauty and without great protection it will be a chance creation highway.
For all the kudos for Kanchelskis and Ruud people forgot about Ryan Giggs.
Okay, I think our tone's starting to become more rant-like than I thought. The match is over. Good game @Physiocrat, and great job on keeping it a close game. I hope you appreciate the fact that I stayed out of the match for 99% of the time to keep this fair.
Not by me no, I've picked him at least twice before. What I don't get is him being played out of his better position so that Vidal has more space to charge forward. feck that, it's a two man midfield indeed, so make sure you exercise control first and foremost rather than bend over backwards building the side around Vidal.
And both played with a different type of forward in such setups. I don't see the synergy. Play Crespo next to either of them and it's a better front two.
I didn't read the entire thread, but this sounds right from my scanning. Physio didn't have much work to do here.
If anyone underrated Cocu it was you guys messing around with him to build the midfield around Vidal. Cocu is better than Vidal IMO.
He didn't amend his formation, he posted that to clarify how it would work in possession. It was crystal clear to me from the OP, but it's a valid clarification when he has some numpties banging on and on about Signori hating to be on the left.Really?
Physio had to amend his formation as Signori role wasn't clear from the off.
Then you get this:
all roles are clear I guess?
I don't see why Cocu and Vidal couldn't work together. The big issue was the way they were positioned on the formation graphic and it just put everyone's nose out of joint.
Left footer down the left side and right footer on the right side and it would have worked a dream.
Bigger name, mostly because of what he did as a defensive midfielder at Milan. You can make the same point about Basile Boli who was even more influential in the 1993 final so it's hardly a unique badge of quality. I don't think there are many on here who would argue that his best position was as a DM - where he's as good as anyone ever IMO - and his second best position is as a CB - where he's still class but not quite as compelling. Ultimately most of his CB career was before the age of 25 and after the age of 30. I'm hardly shitting on your players here. As for Sol Campbell, I rate him higher than most and would pair him with Rio in a post-92 Prem or England XI. He was outstanding in the 1998, 2002 and 2004 tournaments. Same for Thiago Silva where most of the criticism appears to be the fact he played in Serie A and Ligue Un, rather than a reflection on his abilities and performances on the park. Look at these quotes for example:
From former and current footballers
- Thiago has the physical and technical characteristics of a champion.
- Paolo Maldini, 2009
- Thiago Silva will extend my life as a central defender.
- Alessandro Nesta, 2009
- Certainly, Thiago shows that security that characterised Franco [Baresi] when he used to play. For one reason or another, when Baresi came off during the break or during the game, we all felt his loss and I think the same thing is happening now with Thiago, because he gives so much security at the back.
- Paolo Maldini, 2011
- He’s very elegant, he commits few fouls because he’s always first to every ball and this is an important gift. He’s also fast and has good technique and these are important skills for a defender. Italian football puts players to the test and he immediately showed he was up to the task and ready to play for Milan, at the San Siro. Playing with the kind of continuity he had this season proves he really belongs to the elite.
- Franco Baresi, 2011
- This year, Thiago had an excellent season playing at Baresi’s level, but Franco had several fantastic seasons, not only one or two, but 15 or 16 and I think that at the moment this is the only difference between the two.
- Mauro Tassotti, 2011
- I think that Thiago Silva is the best defender in the world. It is incredible how good he really is. Thiago Silva is part of a new generation of phenomenal players who are perhaps born once every 100 years.
- Pippo Inzaghi, 2011
- Paolo Maldini who is here with us tonight was a player at the level of Franco Baresi, but Thiago is up there too.
- Serginho, 2011 [10]
- Thiago Silva is my heir.
- Franco Baresi, 2012 [11]
- A player like Thiago Silva is impossible to replace.
- Paolo Maldini, 2012 [12]
- It’s difficult to identify where he can still improve. He has already proven to have everything.
- Franco Baresi, 2012 [13]
- It is not blasphemous to compare Thiago Silva to Franco Baresi. With all due respect to Franco, who was a sacred monster, but Thiago Silva is just as phenomenal.
- Gennaro Gattuso, 2012 [14]
- You can't say 'I'll sell Silva and buy a similar player'. There are no similar players around, only worse ones.
- Alessandro Nesta, 2012 [15]
- In the world, today, Thiago Silva is the only defender who can change the outcome of a match.
- Paolo Maldini, 2012 [16]
- There are many good defenders that I have played against, but the most difficult one would have to be Thiago Silva.
- Luis Suárez, 2012 [17]
- The hardest defender I have ever come up against? The guy at AC Milan, Thiago Silva. He's absolutely faultless.
- Robin van Persie, 2012 [18]
- I would say Thiago Silva from Milan is the best defender in the world.
- Nemanja Vidić, 2012 [19]
- At 28, he has a lot of experience and he helps us a lot. He is also a brilliant player - in my opinion he is PSG's best player - and the way he brings the ball out of defence is superb. He's even played a few games in midfield, which shows just what a good footballer he is. For me, he's the best defender in the world.
- Alex, 2012 [20]
- I can say that Thiago Silva has no rival in his position. He is by far the best defender in the world. It’s a compliment for me to be compared to him.
- Paolo Maldini, 2013 [21]
- For me, Thiago Silva is one of the best defenders of all time. We can talk about Baresi, Maldini, and Beckenbauer. They won a lot; we cannot discuss the honours they have won. But Silva's quality, his personality, his tranquility [on the pitch]. Honestly, I've never seen a defender as complete as him.
- Leonardo, 2013 [22]
- Simply the best defender in the world. Whenever he is on the pitch, his presence reassures the others, from the goalkeeper to the attackers.
- Raí, 2013 [23]
- I have played with many fantastic central defenders — Thuram, Cannavaro, Piqué, Puyol — but Silva is like all of them put together.
- Zlatan Ibrahimovic, 2013 [24]
- He makes it look easy. It was not for nothing that PSG spent €50 million [actually €42 million] to secure his services. He is a defender who imposes his strength, his heading, his anticipation. He is 'Mr. Clean' and in addition to that, he is a real leader!
- Luis Fernández, 2013 [25]
- He is already among the best defenders in the history of Brazil, alongside Mozer, Julio Cesar and Aldair. If he wins the World Cup next year he will become the greatest of all time. He is already the best defender in PSG's history.
- Ricardo Gomes, 2013 [26]
- He is the Messi of defenders. The question is no longer if he is the best defender in the world, because he is quite simply one of the best players in the world — better than Cannavaro when he won the Ballon D'Or.
- Alain Roche, 2013 [28]
- Thiago Silva is easily the best defender in the world.
- Mathieu Valbuena, 2013 [30]
- He is the best defender in the world. Before moving to Europe, I watched a lot of matches of Thiago Silva at Milan, and I am inspired by him.
- Lucas Mendes, 2014 [31]
- Thiago Silva is without doubt the best central defender in the world. He has incredible qualities. He is a symbol of elegance like Franz Beckenbauer was. Silva follows in his footsteps.
- Ronaldo, 2014 [32]
- Thiago Silva is the best defender in the world.
- David Beckham, 2014 [33]
- Thiago Silva is the best centre back in the world by a long way.
- Rio Ferdinand, 2014 [34]
- Today, Thiago Silva is the best defender in the world.
- Aldair, 2014 [35]
- I have worked with [Carlos] Gamarra, with [Elías] Figueroa, but Thiago is better than the both of them.
- Paulo César Carpegiani, 2014 [36]
- He's the best defender in the world, three levels above the others.
- Massimiliano Allegri (Milan), 2011
- Silva reminds me of the old Desailly.
- Adriano Galliani (Milan), 2012
- Welcome to PSG, Thiago Silva, the best defender in the world.
- Nasser Al-Khelaifi (PSG), 2012
- No one has the concentration, the speed, the heading or the sense of anticipation he has. He's on track to become the next Maldini.
- Carlo Ancelotti (PSG), 2012
- Silva is complete, without any fault. He's the modern defender because he is so good defensively amongst many other things.
- Laurent Blanc (PSG), 2013
- He is already in the category of Baresi, Sammer and anyone else you want to name. Ultimately what he wins will decide where he ranks, but his qualities make him stronger than all of them.
- Laurent Blanc (PSG), 2013
- He is incredibly quick with his play. He is almost unbeatable in one-on-one situations. He has so many qualities that he can play in midfield, free in front of the defence. He would be incredible [there], but he will not do that because he wants to stay in his position.
- Renato Gaúcho (Fluminense), 2013 [46
Cocu is on the wrong side, it's clear as day - having a right-footer on the left in CM and a left-footer on the right isn't optimal. Not a match-decider, but an easy thing to get right. You had a rationale around that, which made sense, but I'm not sure if it helped or hindered the clutter ahead. I've always called CMs and CBs or wide midfielders on the wrong side - did you want a free pass, especially with one of my favourite players? And I'm not sure when was there a 3-man backline?Cocu played from CB to striker yet he's suddenly on the wrong side? Signori was shunted at LW from the 30th minute and Serginho was played as a winger for 30 mins with a three man back line yet you barely got a mention.
And if so, where was your right-winger to exploit it?whatever, anto. I guess we can agree to disagree on this debate.
This is what @Chesterlestreet touched upon, people are so fixated on them being paired with the EXACT type of player they played with instead of considering this due based on skillset. I am myself usually critical of seeing Raul being used in odd ways as he was a really unique forward but this was really well done. People seem to be talking like Sheva is a full fledged support striker or something, even with Crespo he played as a Centre Forward, and his game is completely all round, not restricted to playing off another striker (like Raul's is). I also looked at Silva and like I mentioned earlier I could see him combining with Sheva like he does with Aguero - who's a roaming sort of #9 himself. He's well versed with working in similar narrow attacking setups and he would be really at home here in my opinion.
I partially blame the Netherlands' incompetence in penalties for that. They got much closer to winning a big trophy than many realize in '98 and '00. When he first went to Barcelona, the midfield with him and Pep/Figo was mouthwatering. He was the only one who survived the Catalans' wrath for anything Dutch after LvG's departure from the club too. Someone told me that Messi is the only non Spanish player that has more apps than Cocu for the club.
I quickly went through the thread and you did cover many of the things i mentioned earlier but at some point it was all about the Sheva-Raul partnership. Bad luck but it was a good team. It looked like a team Fergie would have liked to have in his hands.