Synth Draft: R1 - Invictus vs idmanager

[Physiocrat]

Invictus

idmanager

Invictus

On the ball

With magnificent wide threats in the form of Džajić and Lato - backed up by McGrain and Marinho, we have the perfect cast to exploit the relative lack of width in the opposition team by creating a numerical overload on both flanks.

That focus on stretching things also provides Hagi the space in central areas to showcase his individual brilliance - as well as the freedom for Matthäus to break forward on one of his rampaging runs.

Executing the tactic required an excellent long range passer from the defensive midfield position to feed the wingers, and we couldn't have asked for a better tactical fit than Dinu for that role:

Cornel Dinu played as a sweeper for his national team, but was a brilliant defensive midfielder for most of his club career. His trademark long diagonal passes will find the wingers countless times. It's exactly what I need, a strong defender who can give me an excellent direct option to my wingers on the counter.

Dinu's expertise will be supplemented by the elegance of Blanc - an excellent ballplayer and natural orchestrator from deep.

Spearheading the attack is 1978 Ballon D'Or runner-up and Golden Shoe Krankl - a mobile, complete striker who rattled 36 goals in 40 games for Barcelona at his peak.

He was a finisher par excellence, with superb predatory instincts and an extremely strong left foot. At a shade under six foot, Krankl was strong in the air and had a sudden burst of speed that lethally combined with his intelligent movement. With short hair and an awkward moustache, he even looked different from Cruyff with his Jagger-esque swagger.

Off the ball

Spoiler

With players like Tarantini, Dalglish, Rivelino, Platini and Schuster we expect the opposition's attack to be centrally orientated.

The best way to restrain that kind of attack is to block the inside and central channels with a zonal marking theme. Dinu was equally at home as a defensive midfielder or as an advanced sweeper - which will be key in creating a block for Platini in front of Blanc and the Desailly-esque Vierchowod.

The wingers will not be asked to recede very deep because 1) we want to maintain a counter-attacking threat, and 2) there's no need for them to drop deep given the defensive prowess and structure throughout the side.

And of course in Schmeichel we have the best keeper in the pool to act as the ultimate impediment.

idmanager

Formation : 4-1-2-1-2 Diamond with midfielders capable of playing both central and wide roles ( Madrid 2002 with Figo/Solari)
Style of play : High amounts of possession with lots of passing among the midfielders and support from the fullbacks pushing forward. Penetration centrally and from the wings.

Lineup/Roles/Tactics:

Jean-Marie_Pfaff : Goalkeeper
FIFA World Cup All-Star Team: 1986 and IFFHS World's Best Goalkeeper: 1987. Safe hands.

Alberto Tarantini : Left wingback
One of the best LB's of his era defensively and pretty good going forward. Won the 1978 world cup playing alongside Passarella in defence.

Fulvio Collovati : Left Centreback
One of the greatest Italian defenders and part of the 1982 world cup winning Italy team where he was paired with Scirea in the centre of defence. In the FIFA World Cup All-star Team: 1982.
He would also provide defensive cover down the left to Tarantini.

Alessandro Costacurta : Right Centreback
Integral part of the grestest defence of all time. As reliable as it gets alongside Collovati.
Like Collovati, he would also provide defensive cover down the right to Jorginho.

Jorginho : Right wingback
Easily one of the best wingbacks in the draft going forward and should provide plenty of options in attack.
He would be up against Dzajic which would not be a easy task for most wingbacks, hence would constantly be supported by Costacurta and Schuster down the right. Should have plenty of cover.

Ronald Koeman : Deep lying play maker/ DM / CB
Probably the greatest attacking defender of all time just for the amount of goals he scored and his passing range. Was pretty solid defensively too.
He is the missing piece in the jigsaw leaving no spaces in the defence when the other 4 players take up their above mentioned roles and responsibilities. Considering how high a line the Barcelona Dream Team operated at, he would be in this role more often than not.

Roberto Rivellino : Left Midfielder
Amazing player with an amazing moustache and a pretty perfect player for the formation.
He liked to operate from the left and centrally. Also had the ability to drift wide if required although was not an out and out winger. He is the first part of the midfield trio.

Bernd Schuster : Right Midfielder
Had tremendous energy and would play his usual box to box role. Excelled keeping the attacks going and capable of drifting wide if required and stretching the game.
His box to box abilities would be put in good use to help out Jorginho down the right against Dzajic

Michel Platini : Tip of the diamond
This role was made for him. This formation was made to get the very best out of him. Doesn't need any further introduction.
If not aware, do checkout France's team from the 80's with a pretty similar setup.

Kenny Dalglish : Striker / Support striker

Greatest Liverpool player of all time and perfectly suited to play in a two striker setup.
Kenny would be one more of the creative outlets in the team capable of both scoring and creating. He was also capable of drifting wide creating space for the other attacking players.
He would be on the look out from Koeman on the counters if Chagas is caught in attack.

Włodzimierz Lubański : Striker
The Poles voted him to be their greatest player of all time. He was called the original white Pele who was capable of everything expected from a complete centre forward.
His goal scoring record was phenomenal and he is the highest goal scorer for Poland. Much more than a poacher, he was fast, creative and lethal at taking chances.
His goals were the reason for Sir Matt Busby's only loss in 1968 European Cup win and for kicking England out of the 1974 WC qualifiers, forcing a mistake out of the great Bobby Moore.

 

[Physiocrat]

@Invictus @idmanager

Have a great game

 

[Invictus]

Good luck @idmanager

Schmeichel as a significant counterattacking threat.

Due to the word limit, we couldn't expand on a lot of key points in the OP in terms of tactical cohesion and how specific features will fit together as part of the overall framework of the team. Dinu's long passing range has been addressed, and we briefly touched upon Blanc's ability to build from the back in consummate fashion. But Peter Schmeichel is another pillar of the overall counterattacking scheme (along with Lothar Matthäus - who merits a separate segment, for obvious reasons). Goalkeepers are almost always marginalized in drafts, but someone like Schmeichel was perfectly capable of turning the tide of matches - in that not only was he an excellent shot stopper, his powerful and precise long range passes (vertical, or diagonal - to the likes of Giggs and Kanchelskis) acted as the spring board for devastating counters.

e.g. Schmeichel's pass to Solskjær (note the distance the ball travels, and the way Peter bypasses almost half of the opposition team - immediately after making a save):


Another point we had to leave out was Krankl's ability to play off the shoulder of the central defender and go on probing runs off-the-ball. This could be a factor with him teaming up up with a tricky, quick attacking midfielder in Hagi - who is against Koeman (who frequently moved upfield as a spare defender). Considering that Koeman wasn't the fastest in recovery, the combination of Schmeichel's throws, Hagi's guile and and Krankl's runs has the potential to exploit defensive lapses when the central stoppers peel wide to cover for the wingbacks.

 

[Raees]

Great first round sides both of you though think I prefer Invictus set up tactically.

 

[idmanager]

At a first look, I think Dinu would have too much to deal with Dalglish dropping on the same side of the pitch as a support striker leaving Platini enough time and space.

Think Platini deserves a dedicated DM, especially in this kind of a setup.

Regarding Invictus' wing prowess, Koeman was added instead of the brilliant Jansen specifically for this, so that we could turn to a back 5 with helping hands from the 2 CBs.

Also, I feel I would be dominating most of the possession and would have to mostly depend on counters. I can see my team out scoring him in general. Of course, possession doesn't necessarily mean goals, but I wont count against the creative bodies in my team.

 

[Physiocrat]

@idmanager Have you any vids of Lubanski?

 

[Invictus]

At a first look, I think Dinu would have too much to deal with Dalglish dropping on the same side of the pitch as a support striker leaving Platini enough time and space.

Think Platini deserves a dedicated DM, especially in this kind of a setup.

Don't think Dalglish is going to be a massive concern when Vierchowod will have an eye on him, and Marinho will tuck inwards (as highlighted in the OP) as Matthäus also drops slightly deeper. We don't intend on putting dedicated midfielders as man-markers - instead preferring a zonal approach to constrict the space (Platini was great at exploiting empty spaces with runners like Boenik ahead of him) to deal with the movement of the diamond. On the contrary, IMO, Koeman is quite unsuited to dealing with a bamboozling customer like Hagi in space.

Regarding Invictus' wing prowess, Koeman was added instead of the brilliant Jansen specifically for this, so that we could turn to a back 5 with helping hands from the 2 CBs.

This was briefly touched upon in the post on Schmeichel - by putting an extra emphasis on dealing with the wide threat of Džajić, Marinho, Lato and McGrain: you will frequently be short on cover in central areas vs. Krankl and Hagi and Matthäus (who was devastating when he had even a bit of freedom):

Der Panzer - The Irrepressible King of Central Midfielders

Given that counterattacking thrust of the team, Lothar Matthäus is the box-to-box midfielder we had hoped for. An all-encompassing titan in the center of the pitch, you could argue that his ability to spur counterattacks was unparalleled - and is a very potent threat against a not-so-robust inside left structure with Rivelino as the left central midfielder and Koeman ill-equipped at dealing with someone of his dynamism at full pelt.

A few gifs to highlight that feature from the 1990 World Cup, as well as the completeness of his game (courtesy @Šjor Bepo):

Spoiler: Carrying the ball and providing the final ball

Spoiler: Fantastic run and a great finish

Spoiler: Finding space out wide and going for it

Spoiler: Attack the space!

Spoiler: Winning the ball and bulldozing himself into final third

Spoiler: Producing magic around the box.

Spoiler: Pulled few players into himself and passed the ball to the open teammate

Spoiler: Winning the ball with great tenacity

Spoiler: Leading the counter attack

Spoiler: Winning the ball which results with dangerous counter-attack, after the tackle providing a good pass as well

Spoiler: Dropping deep and playing a pass between the lines

Spoiler: Driving at the opposition

Spoiler: Possession game

Spoiler: Sweeping up a loose ball

Spoiler: Controlling the play from the back

Spoiler: Another pass from deep between the lines

Spoiler: Winning possession in the opposition half

Spoiler: Showcasing his horizontal passing skills

Spoiler: Another possession won before the opposition can advance into dangerous final third positions

Lothar Herbert Matthäus was a gargantuan footballer. The term ‘complete player’ is frittered around too often, but Matthäus could rightly lay claim to that. Equally adept in his own penalty box as in the opposition’s, Matthäus was a box-to-box midfielder capable of scoring numerous types of goals in the air or with either foot. He was quick, powerful, elusive and technically supreme.

A set-piece expert, Matthäus was fearless and cold-blooded from the spot. He was also one of football’s inspirational leaders, a captain fronting others into battle. He was named German Player of the Year twice, the second award presented to him at the age of 38. As his physical attributes dwindled, his tactical nous allowed him to convert into an outstanding sweeper.

http://thesefootballtimes.co/2015/02/10/when-lothar-matthaus-went-to-inter/

 

[idmanager]

@idmanager Have you any vids of Lubanski?

Lubanski was a complete forward and the below videos show he had good pace, could create for others, be a ruthless poacher, head it in.



This is the game against England where he embarrassed Moore but also faced a bad injury which halted his career for a while. Many poles feel, if not for this injury in his prime, he would have achieved a hell lot more than he already had.

 

[Invictus]

A few words on three key players in multi-faceted roles...

Cornel Dinu was a Ballon D'Or shortlist player as a defensive midfielder or sweeper, and won 3 Romanian Player of the Year titles (twice runner-up) while Dobrin was an active player. Also at his peak at that time was Dudu Georgescu (who won the European Golden Shoe twice).

Marinho Chagas was 2nd in the South American Footballer of the Year awards when the continent had the likes of Zico, Falcão, Figueroa, Kempes, Ancheta, Leão (among others - and yes, some weren't at their peak, but still a special achievement to finish behind only Figueroa).

In terms of style, he was quite Júnior-esque at times. Could function as an attack-oriented fullback, but also go through the middle using his right foot, and even occupy midfield positions (which will go some ways in hampering the opposition attack through the middle).

He was a skillful and innovative left back who was considered at the time one of the top players at his position. He was a complete player who was strong on defense but also enjoyed joining the attack and did so very effectively, and is considered a pioneer, becoming very influential in helping the left back position evolve into what it is in today's Brazilian football.

The right fullback position called for someone who could overlap with precise timing, but primarily, evidence the nous and grit to monitor Rivelino - who liked to drift into the inside left channel. Danny McGrain is one of the best players in this pool from the perspective as a robust and uncompromising defender who can track people all day long, and is arguably the greatest rightback of all time from Britain.


via @Moby

Scottish League Championship (7): 1972–73, 1973–74, 1976–77, 1978–79, 1980–81, 1981–82, 1985–86
Scottish Cup (5): 1973–74, 1974–75, 1976–77, 1979–80, 1984–85
Scottish League Cup (2): 1974, 1983

A wonderful read from The Celtic Wiki:

There are many great players in our history, and there are few other more recognisable (due to his bushy beard) or fondly remembered than the great Danny McGrain. His name is said with as much reverence now as when he played.

A great stalwart in the Celtic sides of the 70's, he was a truly world class player, whom many of us are fortunate to be able to say that he was one of us. Yet it wasn't meant to be like this. Danny McGrain was actually brought up a bluenose and was a self-confessed died-in-the-wool Rangers supporter in his youth. How did he end up then with Celtic? It's a bitter story which he has himself recounted endlessly and detailed in his biographies. A Rangers' scout is said to have visited his junior club to see or sign him, only to then turn around on hearing his surname in the mistaken belief that Danny McGrain was of Irish Catholic descent [not that it should have mattered].

Bigotry reared its head, and disgracefully cost a good man (wrongly) to not be allowed to join his boyhood club. If ever there was a point that the Hun's sectarianism policies paid off for us, then it was here. Celtic has always been an ecumenical club, and Celtic signed Danny McGrain on the basis of his football alone [as per Willie Maley's famous quote]. For that we can be forever grateful to Rangers in mistakenly & wrongly passing him over.

Danny McGrain signed for us on May 13th 1967, just a couple of weeks before our European Cup win, and for him it was a case of looking on to see what he could become a part of. Little did the Lisbon Lions know as they were celebrating their win that already within Celtic was a player [Danny McGrain] who would soon be snapping at their heels.

His main position was as right-back but he was able to easily flit between the right-back and the left-back positions, or centre-half if and when needed. He may have been an affable gentleman off the pitch, but on the pitch he was an unforgiving tackler. Built out of granite, he never shirked a tackle and every opposing player knew his presence on the pitch; "a real cruel tackler" as ------------ described him.

Another great facet of his game was his pace. A speedy player, it was like as if a rhino was charging up the field with the ball for crossing and passing. Any weaknesses? He was too tough for any of that, but admittedly he has said himself that he wasn't an attacking penalty box player and goal scoring wasn't his forte, feeling a bit out of place away from the defence.

Regardless, consistent and level headed, he managed to more than make himself known to all, and his reputation was international. He truly was world class, and many commentators from the 1970's have said that he was the best in the world in his position. A great accolade. Celtic fans always knew about his ability, and in a poll to find out Celtic's greatest XI, McGrain easily found a place in this alongside Jinky, ------- and --------.

Must add a point on his great sportsmanship. For such a solid unforgiving player on the pitch, he actually had a heart of gold and was not unknown to ask after his opposing player after a game [likely to make sure he hadn't damaged them].

It wasn't all plain sailing, and in 1974 Danny McGrain was diagnosed with diabetes, which can hinder many a person's life never mind a sporting career. However, he didn't let that put him down and worked around it, and he became a role model for others who had to live with the condition. You wouldn't have believed he actually had any such issues.

Along the way there was also a fractured jaw (1972) which lost him time at the peak of his career, but more seriously he also suffered a mystery ankle injury after what some thought was an innocuous challenge in a league match (1977) which ended up laying him out from first team action for 16 months.

Thankfully for himself and his career he recovered to return to join the side. We were all relieved for him and the attachment the support had for Danny was immense. Amazingly, he returned as strong as ever but sadly with less pace as time caught up with him. Didn't hinder him as he captained the side to the league title culminating in the magnificent "Ten men who won the league" match against Rangers in 1979.

In his career at Celtic, Danny McGrain amassed a grand haul of trophies, medals and memories. He was deserving of each and every one of them. McGrain stayed at the club till 1987, a phenomenally long time for any footballer to stay at a single club. Whilst the other great players in the Quality Street gang had left to make a go in England, McGrain was not interested and for a man who had grown up in the blue corner of Glasgow, he had come to fall in love with Celtic and was as steeped in the history of the green as any man on the terracing. His ego was non-existent, and all was secondary to the benefit of the club. A great man deserving of all accolades that come his way.

Sadly, it didn't end amicably between Celtic and McGrain. On his retirement, he was hoping for a position amongst the coaching staff with Celtic but an agreement did not materialise between the board and him, and Danny McGrain walked out and not to return for around three years. It was a sad indictment of the old board's management that they couldn't handle this situation with Danny McGrain, his talent and experience would have been invaluable with the youths.

Thankfully, the torn relationship was repaired, and McGrain came back in later years and worked again for Celtic as a reserve team coach. His influence and persona are simply priceless.

 

[idmanager]

Don't think Dalglish is going to be a massive concern when Vierchowod will have an eye on him

I am not sure how he will have an eye on Dalglish who is known to drop deep, if you are playing Zonal marking.
For Zonal marking to be successful, players need to avoid the temptation of concentrating on individual players, which players like Platini and Dalglish are two of the best at extracting.

We don't intend on putting dedicated midfielders as man-markers - instead preferring a zonal approach to constrict the space (Platini was great at exploiting empty spaces with runners like Boenik ahead of him) to deal with the movement of the diamond

With a player like Platini with this kind of freedom and so much attacking movement around him, I think Zonal marking is a terrible idea. There are so many players in the front 5 dragging players away and it only takes 1 player to make a mistake for Zonal marking to come crashing. Like Vierchowod moving away to Dalglish. Very few players need a dedicated DM no matter what setup you play. Platini is undoubtedly one of them, especially in a setup he has played successfully in his prime.

On the contrary, IMO, Koeman is quite unsuited to dealing with a bamboozling customer like Hagi in space.

I think Koeman is grossly underrated in these drafts defensively. He was much better than what he gets attributed to just because of his attacking prowess. He was not the fastest, but he was very smart, a Busquets 1.0. Exactly what a setup like mine needs. A DM doesn't have to be the quickest either ways.
Hagi would have been tough to handle in 50-50 possession game maybe, but in a game where I would dominate possession with large difference with any doubt, I see Hagi getting bored for long amounts of time without too much time on the ball.

 

[idmanager]

One big problem I see with the counter attacking setup here is the choice of striker. Think its a complete mismatch.
Krankl from what I have seen was not the fastest but was more of a scorer in the box. This setup needs a fast striker who would not slow down the play when I am caught off the ball.

Pretty much similar to Ibra slowing us down on counters last season and most counters getting wasted. You can't build a counter attacking team in a great players draft with a player leading the line who was not very quick.

 

[idmanager]

Madrid 2002 had a great advantage in the central players both being capable of drifting wide when required.
This was not your standard diamond. It offered decent amounts of width which did not originate just from the wing backs.

Way too much concentration on limiting play through the centre could be costly with Rivellino and Schuster drifting out wide in space and dragging players along.
Zonal marking fails there too. In a normal diamond, it makes sense. In a diamond like this, not too much.

 

[idmanager]

Will get back in a couple of hours and discuss more.
And good luck to you too @Invictus

 

[Invictus]

I am not sure how he will have an eye on Dalglish who is known to drop deep, if you are playing Zonal marking.
For Zonal marking to be successful, players need to avoid the temptation of concentrating on individual players, which players like Platini and Dalglish are two of the best at extracting.

Zonal marking doesn't preclude Vierchowod from monitoring Danglish's whereabouts in tandem with his own position relative to Blanc and Dinu and Marinho, and Kenny can be blocked by either Vierchowod or Marinho depending on where he is - the former if Kenny is advanced into his zone, the latter is he recedes.

With a player like Platini with this kind of freedom and so much attacking movement around him, I think Zonal marking is a terrible idea. There are so many players in the front 5 dragging players away and it only takes 1 player to make a mistake for Zonal marking to come crashing. Like Vierchowod moving away to Dalglish. Very few players need a dedicated DM no matter what setup you play. Platini is undoubtedly one of them, especially in a setup he has played successfully in his prime.

Methinks you're overplaying the movement these players will produce given that a lot of them were passers and ball carriers first and foremost rather than dummy runners to produce an excess of movement - whilst intentionally downplaying the prowess of the defensive structure and scheme - going so far as to disingenuously call a positional marking system that is time-tested against possession teams as a terrible idea. Someone like Platini was more passer than dribbler, and a Zone scheme where the team shift synchronously and is predicated on monitoring positions and movement relative to their own team-mates is is exactly what's suited to limiting him by expertly plugging potential passing lanes instead of rigidly concentrating on him via man-marking while he creates space for others.

I think Koeman is grossly underrated in these drafts defensively. He was much better than what he gets attributed to just because of his attacking prowess. He was not the fastest, but he was very smart, a Busquets 1.0. Exactly what a setup like mine needs. A DM doesn't have to be the quickest either ways.
Hagi would have been tough to handle in 50-50 possession game maybe, but in a game where I would dominate possession with large difference with any doubt, I see Hagi getting bored for long amounts of time without too much time on the ball.

Possession ultimately doesn't count for much if incisive scoring chances aren't being converted. Look no further than matches like this where directness and incision at crucial periods helped dismantle a possession heavy team with the tandem of two consummate wingers, a center forward, and a structurally balanced midfield and defense:

And you could argue that Jansen would've been better than Koeman because the former was more suited to tracking backwards over and over again instead of being someone who broke free of the defensive line as a spare like Koeman, and would've been a better water-carrier for a team with Platini, Schuster, Rivelino ahead of him. Busquets is vulnerable against tricky #10s - much like Koeman was, especially from an athletic standpoint - and Ronald is definitely going to be in for a torrid time as a defensive midfielder.

One big problem I see with the counter attacking setup here is the choice of striker. Think its a complete mismatch.
Krankl from what I have seen was not the fastest but was more of a scorer in the box. This setup needs a fast striker who would not slow down the play when I am caught off the ball.

Pretty much similar to Ibra slowing us down on counters last season and most counters getting wasted. You can't build a counter attacking team in a great players draft with a player leading the line who was not very quick.

Reckon that's another misrepresentation - we don't need Usain Bolt when Krankl provides the exact features we're looking for given his quickness in bursts and movement as someone who was much more than a basic in-box number 9. He was quick off the marks (again we don't need an overly rapid player to use the tactic when he's staying fairly up-field), very active with the ability to go wider when he senses opportunity, and very much suited to a high-tempo counter team in terms of holding the defense vertically as the spearhead, or being an outlet at crosses. To state otherwise is disingenuous.


Pulling wider:

At a shade under six foot, Krankl was strong in the air and had a sudden burst of speed that lethally combined with his intelligent movement.

Way too much concentration on limiting play through the centre could be costly with Rivellino and Schuster drifting out wide in space and dragging players along.
Zonal marking fails there too. In a normal diamond, it makes sense. In a diamond like this, not too much.

I don't know what this is about when the specifics have been touched upon already (starting with the gif). Drag whom along with them? The scheme calls for our players to monitor their zones (relative to team-mates) and pay attention to their team-mates' positions, the spaces in front of them and potential passing opportunities, not follow Rivelino and Schuster around.

In this type of zonal defense, players seek to remain in their positions in relation to their teammates and shift towards the ball. The idea behind this type of zonal marking is that there is no need to directly pressure the opponent or the ball when the team can control the space around the ball by shifting towards it in its block.

Because this type of marking is oriented specifically to one’s teammates the compactness of the team is maintained throughout the block – though it does require a lot of running to close the open space if the opponent seeks only to circulate the ball in safe positions. If the ball is played into a tight near-side area (created by the block shifting towards the ball) it is pressed and the opponent is in a very difficult situation. As you can tell, this form of pressing the ball is a bit more passive in comparison to others because the team just shifts towards the ball and waits for the opportunity to press instead of actively seeking out the opportunity to press.

This is perfect for slowly suffocating a team that's too concentrated on possession (by your own admission) - before striking on counters with the likes of Džajić, Lato, Krankl, Hagi, Matthäus, Marinho.

 

[Physiocrat]

Thanks @idmanager

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Not really a fan of how Rivelino is being used here.

 

[Invictus]

To expand on the Koeman issue, he was traditionally someone who played a lot like a proactive libero, and even as a defensive midfielder - he would make forward maneuvers while others dropped to cover for him (like Guardiola at Barcelona).

Not entirely convinced he's suited to doing the converse and tracking backwards with Hagi in those edge of the defensive 3rd positions - you could argue that Koeman at the back with the workmanlike Jansen dropping in to cover for him (or mark Hagi) would've been a better tactic. Might not be a readily apparent issue, but Ronald was someone who was better at handling and diagnosing the game in front of him than dealing with a runner behind him (a conundrum he faces here against both Hagi and Matthäus). The midfield balance seems a bit off overall with him there and Rivelino to the left of the diamond - all while Der Panzer is ready to break free.

 

[idmanager]

Alright, I would like to point In more detail why I think Zonal marking and counter attacking has major flaws here against my system.

Firstly, Zonal marking during set pieces is very different from defending using Zonal marking against the opposition as a whole. You need a shape you need to maintain with space/grass divided among personnel to protect.
Quite obviously, the more number of players, the less amount of grass to be protected per player.
To defend against a team based on possession with the fullbacks capable of pushing forward, you need at least 7 players in a 4-3-3 or 8 players in a 4-4-2.
I can't see either Dzajic or Hagi or Lato helping out a lot quite honestly without any bias. You have 6 players to zonal mark out my system. Good luck with that.
You are lacking at least 1 player in the middle which is why I mention so many times I would find so many gaps and space to move around with my players which would either need 1 of the 2 stratergies.

1. Let them roam and maintain your shape which leaves enough gaps for my creative players to create chances after chances
2. Players to drift out and lose the shape altogether where zonal marking goes down the gutter.

You need 1 more central midfielder with Mathaus to help covering the space and a better more all round striker than Krankl to pounce while Hagi warms the bench.

 

[idmanager]

Now coming to the counter attacking aspect.
Its funny you mention I underplay zonal marking while you under play possession to laughable levels with that 4-0 scoreline. Not to forget, that game featured an unfit Messi in a big away game who was played out of desperation.

Mourinho's first El Classico. He goes with a 4-2-3-1 just like you and gets banged 5-0. After that he never went with a 4-2-3-1 and always preferred a 4-3-3 with either Diarra/Pepe taking the DM spot with two other hard working midfielders around him. Ozil never again got the No.10 role back in those games. If you think counter attacking against a Barca-esque possession team with a 4-2-3-1 setup works, I cam sorry, you are mistaken.

Casemiro/Kroos or Casemiro/Modric won't really work against Barcelona. You need all 3 of them.

How many teams with a 4-2-3-1 have won against Barcelona by the way? I can't seem to remember any obvious big games to be honest.

Hagi and Krankl again are not the right personnel here.

To sum up, just because you say you will play Zonal marking with the counter attacking strategy, it doesn't mean, you have the right personnel or shape for it.
If those things don't matter, one might as well draw a bird formation with players numbered 1 to 11 without names and win games against such teams.

 

[idmanager]

Not really a fan of how Rivelino is being used here.

Would like to know more about why you feel so. What do you think his best position is? He is certainly not a winger, nor a fully central player.
If you feel he is a little deep, I can probably give you that, but among Schuster and Rivelino, he would be the more advanced one. Like with Xavi and Iniesta.

 

[idmanager]

To expand on the Koeman issue, he was traditionally someone who played a lot like a proactive libero, and even as a defensive midfielder - he would make forward maneuvers while others dropped to cover for him (like Guardiola at Barcelona).

Not entirely convinced he's suited to doing the converse and tracking backwards with Hagi in those edge of the defensive 3rd positions - you could argue that Koeman at the back with the workmanlike Jansen dropping in to cover for him (or mark Hagi) would've been a better tactic. Might not be a readily apparent issue, but Ronald was someone who was better at handling and diagnosing the game in front of him than dealing with a runner behind him (a conundrum he faces here). The midfield balance seems a bit off overall with him there and Rivelino to the left of the diamond - all while Matthäus is ready to break free.

Koeman is not there to run behind the runners. He would move there when the fullbacks move ahead in attack and the 2 CB's stretch to form a 3 man defence. Or when the centre backs move out to support the fullbacks.
The scenario you talk about is counter attacking where Koeman's role would be more about intercepting moves and tackling players trying to go past him rather than run back towards the long counters (which anyways you said would be directed towards the wings).

 

[2mufc0]

Struggling to pick a winner for this one, thought both of you drafted really well during the picks.

 

[idmanager]

Struggling to pick a winner for this one, thought both of you drafted really well during the picks.

Thanks mate. To be honest, I like Invictus' team a lot too and he infact was my 3rd favorite drafter in the voting for best drafter.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Would like to know more about why you feel so. What do you think his best position is? He is certainly not a winger, nor a fully central player.
If you feel he is a little deep, I can probably give you that, but among Schuster and Rivelino, he would be the more advanced one. Like with Xavi and Iniesta.

Precisely that. This is a role more suited to Edgar Davids than Rivellino imo.

I see you have Wim Jansen on the bench. Though I can see the appeal of Koeman, your team will be more balanced with Jansen imo. Jansen/Schuster will form a more stable platform than Rivelino/Schuster.

 

[idmanager]

Precisely that. This is a role more suited to Edgar Davids than Rivellino imo.

I see you have Wim Jansen on the bench. Though I can see the appeal of Koeman, your team will be more balanced with Jansen imo. Jansen/Schuster will form a more stable platform than Rivelino/Schuster.

As I said, you need to look beyond the symmetry and realize that Rivelino like Iniesta will play a bit ahead of Schuster (Xavi).
Schuster will have Kenny ahead of him while Rivelino would have most of left sided space for him.

I wanted to use more arrows to signify that, but after the 4-way draft, I would rather go 4-way with 4 monkeys rather than use more than 4 arrows.

 

[idmanager]

Playing Jansen would have left me unsafe at the wings and not playing a great attacker like Jorginho who is tailor made for this formation would have been stupid.
Koeman gives me that balance in defence.

Ideally, I would have wanted Cafu/Carlos Alberto, and maybe then Jansen could have been fitted. But here, I feel it would have caused me more harm.

Mind you, Jansen did play RB (WC 1978) and CB/sweeper too for Ajax and could have been used as a cover. But then I didnt find too much footage on that and didn't want to use him just based on online articles.

 

[idmanager]

This is a role more suited to Edgar Davids than Rivellino imo

Just to add to this. My diamond is more of a Madrid 2002 diamond than the AC Milan 2003 one. Both are different. Edgar Davids doesn't fit in my team.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Playing Jansen would have left me unsafe at the wings and not playing a great attacker like Jorginho who is tailor made for this formation would have been stupid.
Koeman gives me that balance in defence.

Yeah, I can understand your view. I just thought something like...


Rivelino.......Dalglish....
..........Platini...........
....Jansen....Schuster.....

May have been better. Jansen on Hagi with Schuster/Platini/Rivelino providing the flair. With Schuster there, I doubt you really need Koeman. Additionally Jansen has played libero himself and can drop back if your fullbacks want to attack.

But, yeah...it's personal preference. Nothing fundamentally wrong with your team.

 

[Invictus]

@idmanager, bit busy now, so you'll have to wait for the reply those posts. Though this one made me chuckle because I had you as tied 3rd, too:

1. x
2. x
3. x

Can I send two entries for #3? Bit torn between x and idmanager...

 

[Gio]

It's some feat to pull together four 10s and a defender who played like a 10 in the same midfield. On the ball it looks fantastic and that's ironically where I can see that Koeman arrow working (any deep-lying playmaker drops off to receive and open up the shape of the team). The critical question for me though is how credible are Rivelino and Schuster off the ball. That's a genuine question - I haven't seen much of Rivelino outside of Mexico '70. Obviously you'd want somebody tracking Lothar's runs.

 

[idmanager]

It's some feat to pull together four 10s and a defender who played like a 10 in the same midfield. On the ball it looks fantastic and that's ironically where I can see that Koeman arrow working (any deep-lying playmaker drops off to receive and open up the shape of the team). The critical question for me though is how credible are Rivelino and Schuster off the ball. That's a genuine question - I haven't seen much of Rivelino outside of Mexico '70. Obviously you'd want somebody tracking Lothar's runs.

Schuster was brilliant at the B2B role , so I wouldn't need to justify him a lot.

I have watched lots of Rivelino over the past few days and he was someone who came deep a lot to get the ball and even try to win the ball running back, even though not the sharpest obviously.
He is one of the very few in his class who came that deep. Checkout any of his videos on youtube and you would see almost all of his moves started from behind the half way line.

In a 4-3-3 vs 4-3-3 with both team occupying same amounts of the ball, can he track Lothar? No way. Lothar wins 10 out of 10 times.
But that is not how I am setup. Lothar's opportunities to rage forward with the ball will be mostly on counters and far apart considering I will have most of the possession.
Its not unnatural to expect Rivellino to close down opponents when out of possession and help out his other teammates as based on the videos I have watched, he was not lazy and was hard working with lots of movement forward and backwards.

The team in the way its setup and the opposition the way its setup, doesn't require me to have too many ball winners.
And since Koeman is not doing a man marking job here, like Busquets, his job would be to intercept/tackle these runs if Lothar beats the players closing down as I have mentioned before.
I really think he lacks 1 more midfielder in the centre there (B2B), perhaps to get the best out of Lothar and the setup as a whole to function. Its too much to expect Lothar to help winning the ball in zonal marking with 6 players against a possession based attack, get the ball, take it past the closing down team, and perhaps pass it on before avoiding Koeman. If that is what you mean by his runs.

 

[idmanager]

I would like to know from the neutrals what they think of Invictus' defence against my attack.
Its quite obvious I would create a truck load, but do you think his tactics work to defend against my players.
The zonal marking discussion has been limited to me and Invictus and I can see it going in circles from now on. Would appreciate neutral view points based on the points and tactics already discussed.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

I wanted to use more arrows to signify that, but after the 4-way draft, I would rather go 4-way with 4 monkeys rather than use more than 4 arrows.

That's just because that tactics site people like to use (I still don't know why you all use share my tactics haha) has the worst implementation of arrows I have ever seen for football tactics.

If people used a different app like TacticalPad you can implement arrows in a lot more subtle way so even this overload of a dozen arrows doesn't look as ugly as 4 arrows on sharemytactics

 

[Moby]

(I still don't know why you all use share my tactics haha)

I used to do what you do now, photoshop my players onto the pitch looking all nice but it's just a bit too much time taking.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

I would like to know from the neutrals what they think of Invictus' defence against my attack.
Its quite obvious I would create a truck load, but do you think his tactics work to defend against my players.
The zonal marking discussion has been limited to me and Invictus and I can see it going in circles from now on. Would appreciate neutral view points based on the points and tactics already discussed.

Its a very interesting discussion and one that is worthy of more thought than I have at the moment. But off the top of my head I would say I agree with Invictus in general - zonal marking is a proven strategy against possession teams but then I also agree with you that you ideally want 8-10 outfielders focused to implement it. I do think its valid to leave a player or two up to threaten on the counter attack though especially against your side here. I think Lato is perfectly fine for this tactic but I don't know enough on Krankl to give that a fair assessment without reading up a bit more or watching a match. I tend to agree another CM would be better than Hagi here. For the counter attacking side though I am not feeling Rivellino having to track Lothar. That is an advantage for Invictus. So from first glance, I am indecisively undecided so far ha.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

I used to do what you do now, photoshop my players onto the pitch looking all nice but it's just a bit too much time taking.

True it takes more time but that share my tactics site hurts my eyes

 

[Gio]

True it takes more time but that share my tactics site hurts my eyes

Just as well you weren't around in the days of this11 when they went all tight and basic. Or footballuser when everyone got away with random diamonds and narrow attacks because each player was about 30 yards tall.

 

[Gio]

With a player like Platini with this kind of freedom and so much attacking movement around him, I think Zonal marking is a terrible idea. There are so many players in the front 5 dragging players away and it only takes 1 player to make a mistake for Zonal marking to come crashing. Like Vierchowod moving away to Dalglish. Very few players need a dedicated DM no matter what setup you play. Platini is undoubtedly one of them, especially in a setup he has played successfully in his prime.

I share your view on Platini being a likely matchwinner, given what he is up against - zone or no zone. But there's nothing wrong with a zonal marking approach in principle. Teams don't routinely man-mark Messi for example. Harder in the modern game obviously, given the easiness of picking up yellows and fouls in dangerous positions relative to the 1970s and 1980s.

 

[Gio]

Schuster was brilliant at the B2B role , so I wouldn't need to justify him a lot.

I have watched lots of Rivelino over the past few days and he was someone who came deep a lot to get the ball and even try to win the ball running back, even though not the sharpest obviously.
He is one of the very few in his class who came that deep. Checkout any of his videos on youtube and you would see almost all of his moves started from behind the half way line.

In a 4-3-3 vs 4-3-3 with both team occupying same amounts of the ball, can he track Lothar? No way. Lothar wins 10 out of 10 times.
But that is not how I am setup. Lothar's opportunities to rage forward with the ball will be mostly on counters and far apart considering I will have most of the possession.
Its not unnatural to expect Rivellino to close down opponents when out of possession and help out his other teammates as based on the videos I have watched, he was not lazy and was hard working with lots of movement forward and backwards.

The team in the way its setup and the opposition the way its setup, doesn't require me to have too many ball winners.
And since Koeman is not doing a man marking job here, like Busquets, his job would be to intercept/tackle these runs if Lothar beats the players closing down as I have mentioned before.
I really think he lacks 1 more midfielder in the centre there (B2B), perhaps to get the best out of Lothar and the setup as a whole to function. Its too much to expect Lothar to help winning the ball in zonal marking with 6 players against a possession based attack, get the ball, take it past the closing down team, and perhaps pass it on before avoiding Koeman. If that is what you mean by his runs.

Cheers, good response.

 

[idmanager]

Its a very interesting discussion and one that is worthy of more thought than I have at the moment. But off the top of my head I would say I agree with Invictus in general - zonal marking is a proven strategy against possession teams but then I also agree with you that you ideally want 8-10 outfielders focused to implement it. I do think its valid to leave a player or two up to threaten on the counter attack though especially against your side here. I think Lato is perfectly fine for this tactic but I don't know enough on Krankl to give that a fair assessment without reading up a bit more or watching a match. I tend to agree another CM would be better than Hagi here. For the counter attacking side though I am not feeling Rivellino having to track Lothar. That is an advantage for Invictus. So from first glance, I am indecisively undecided so far ha.

I share your view on Platini being a likely matchwinner, given what he is up against - zone or no zone. But there's nothing wrong with a zonal marking approach in principle. Teams don't routinely man-mark Messi for example. Harder in the modern game obviously, given the easiness of picking up yellows and fouls in dangerous positions relative to the 1970s and 1980s.

Thanks for your insights, guys.