Synth Draft: R1 - Invictus vs idmanager

[Invictus]

@idmanager, regarding counters, I think Hagi and Krankl are both 100% suited to the tactic and disagree with your impression of them. And on a related note, the biggest issue you're going to face here is the shortage of consistent ball-winners through the middle. Hagi vs. Koeman has been highlighted before, and there's also Matthäus vs. Rivelino when they're matched. Now, it might not be Rivelino's dedicated job to mind and stop Lothar, but if he doesn't do it, the German is going to get a free run at the defense because bear in mind that Lothar is the fastest and most dynamic midfielder on the pitch - up against a backpeddling Koeman (who will have other things on his mind: Hagi), and Rivelino (who by your own admission is in no way suited to the job of containing Matthäus).

Can definitely see situations like this one as Rivelino overindulges himself on the ball and is caught off guard:

And Matthäus then doesn't need an invitation to whiz through and strike at the heart of your defense:

Additionally, just because we have highlighted the ability to counter with Džajić and Lato doesn't mean all of the counters will go through team - that much was obvious. Schmeichel could just as well lob the ball through the center with Hagi and Krankl leading the charge while the wing duo leave your defenders in two minds:

Also, funny you mention this *:

Koeman is not there to run behind the runners. He would move there when the fullbacks move ahead in attack and the 2 CB's stretch to form a 3 man defence. Or when the centre backs move out to support the fullbacks.
The scenario you talk about is counter attacking where Koeman's role would be more about intercepting moves and tackling players trying to go past him rather than run back towards the long counters (which anyways you said would be directed towards the wings).

* Note the blondie who was intercepting and tackling Matthäus as the latter tries to get past him, and how effective the former was in doing so.

 

[idmanager]

@Invictus I wont contest most of things from your post because you are well within your rights to interpret and assume how the match would go and the players fit in as am I. Its up to the voters to buy into a particular tactic which is fair enough.

But thanks for pointing out your last gif. If anything, proves Lothar needs to play that ahead of the other players around him with support behind to expect the sort of super human effort you expect from him.

What is he, the 2nd most forward player in that move? Sure, I could relate that happening in this game.

 

[idmanager]

Anyways, that is about it from me regarding my tactics.
Time to hit the bed and sit back tomorrow and watch the votes piling up on either side.

Already a much better draft game experience than my first one in the last draft. Cheers!

 

[Invictus]

Alright, I would like to point In more detail why I think Zonal marking and counter attacking has major flaws here against my system.

Firstly, Zonal marking during set pieces is very different from defending using Zonal marking against the opposition as a whole. You need a shape you need to maintain with space/grass divided among personnel to protect.
Quite obviously, the more number of players, the less amount of grass to be protected per player.
To defend against a team based on possession with the fullbacks capable of pushing forward, you need at least 7 players in a 4-3-3 or 8 players in a 4-4-2.
I can't see either Dzajic or Hagi or Lato helping out a lot quite honestly without any bias. You have 6 players to zonal mark out my system. Good luck with that.
You are lacking at least 1 player in the middle which is why I mention so many times I would find so many gaps and space to move around with my players which would either need 1 of the 2 stratergies.

1. Let them roam and maintain your shape which leaves enough gaps for my creative players to create chances after chances
2. Players to drift out and lose the shape altogether where zonal marking goes down the gutter.

You need 1 more central midfielder with Mathaus to help covering the space and a better more all round striker than Krankl to pounce while Hagi warms the bench.

Quite a few things to respond to here - some comments I don't particularly agree with. I'm not exactly sure where those figures have come from and how you have calculated the need for that specific number of players to employ an effective zonal marking system - though more importantly in the context of the team overall, I'm not sure how you have come to the conclusion that Džajić/Hagi/Lato/Krankl have no place in such a setup.

e.g. Lato wasn't exactly Bruno Conti in terms of his off-the-ball defensive workrate, however we wasn't opposed to putting in a shift when the occasion called for it. And Krankl was very good at pressing the opposition defenders. Here he is against the vaunted West German defense (winners in the previous World Cup and finalists in '82) - showcasing his pressing and workrate off-the-ball:

More to the point of zonal marking - the vast majority of modern football teams defend zonally and it's very rare that you will see a man marking approach during open play. By saying that we will defend zonally the point was more on keeping a tight and structured shape when in defensive phase, which we see as the best way to counter a narrow attack. In terms of actual ball winners, we have significantly more ball winning ability in the side with Dinu and Lothar is midfield - as well as one of the best defensive spines in the draft in Schmeichel/Blanc/Vierchowod - in our view we should have no trouble winning back possession when you try to break down the side.

Just to respond to your two scenarios detailed above: number one is clearly more relevant as that is the structured approach we are going for. Disagree with the description, though - you say that maintaining our shape will create gaps for your players but surely its the complete opposite. The whole point of maintaining a structured shape is to stop players getting dragged around and gaps appearing. In order to break down that defense you really could have speedy runners, IMO - players who can get behind the defense or offer more of a natural wide threat - because in the current configuration, we can keep your balls carriers in front of the defensive line - which can then move around like a block with Matthäus and Dinu in front of them to complete the bank.

Anyways, that is about it from me regarding my tactics.

Same here, mate. Think there has been enough discussion on this and there's some dissonance in opinion when it comes to the tactical theory, so let's leave it at that. Out of interest, are you implementing a man marking approach?

I don't know enough on Krankl to give that a fair assessment

Think Sándor Kocsis is stylistic terms - though not as good, obviously.

 

[Indnyc]

Two very good teams. My 2 cents on this

A) I don’t think Rivelino is suited to this team. He is more of a attack minded midfielder who would benefit a pure destroyer in midfield like Makelele was for the Madrid 2002 team.

B) I can see Schuster and Jorginho getting getting some joy on the right with 2 fairly attacking player on the left flank for Invictus.

Overall I think @Invictus has a slightly more balanced team but it’s very close.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

@Invictus @idmanager some amazing posts in here guys, good job

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Just to add to this. My diamond is more of a Madrid 2002 diamond than the AC Milan 2003 one. Both are different. Edgar Davids doesn't fit in my team.

Edgar Davids fits into any team.

 

[Ecstatic]

I would like to know from the neutrals what they think of Invictus' defence against my attack.
Its quite obvious I would create a truck load, but do you think his tactics work to defend against my players.
The zonal marking discussion has been limited to me and Invictus and I can see it going in circles from now on. Would appreciate neutral view points based on the points and tactics already discussed.

- You have a great squad: not surprised that some have considered him as one of the best 3 drafters

- Your team is very offensive: a striker, a support striker, a #10, and 2 playmakers. Surprised that Schuster is described as a B2B.

Battle midfield

- Platini is obviously your best asset and no doubt he would shine here. Dinu-Vierchowood-Blanc will suffer obviously as your attack is centrally oriented.

- Probably overly offensive in this context: Koeman is great but isn't a tireless destroyer with a high work-rate (like Makélélé) who would potentially bring the required balance and enable Rivelino/Schuster to do their stuff. Also, the fullback are asked to be offensive. Koeman would be good as a defensive midfielder but he isn't a world-class midfielder like Stielike (5 times La Liga foreign player of the year against 2 for Schuster btw): so it's strange to think Stielike couldn't do the job in my team as a #6 in a 3-5-2 system while you do believe the slow Koeman would do it in this context.

- On the other hand,

----> Dinu would be the equivalent of your Koeman
----> Matthaus is a the ultimate box-to-box par excellence (you don't have a B2B because Schuster is more a central holding midfielder)
----> the defensive contribution Hagi is pretty high for a playmaker: we are talking about

Also, Rivelino used to play with Brazil in a tactical system with a limited required defensive contribution:
----> the duo Tostao/Pele
----> Rivelino on the left + Jairzinho
----> 2 midfielders to support the front 4: clodoaldo, gerson

On the other hand, Schuster would be more familiar with the attributed role but - contrary to Germany 1980* or Barcelona 80-85* - there isn't a Rummenige (Germany 80), a Pedraza/Simonsen (Barcelona) or a Michel (Real Madrid 88-90) to protect the exposed Schuster on the right flank.


* career peak of Schuster between 79 & 85. He notably scored 87 goals in 239 games with Barcelona

-Dzajic and Hagi (the Roumanian can be a disciplined player defensively) bring trickery on the left while Lato & Matthaus are powerful & sharp players

To sum up my views:

1. You deserve to pass this round because you have clearly one of the top 8 teams in this draft
2. You have great players but your team is overly offensive for my taste given the opposing team: you lose 3-2

 

[Joga Bonito]

Reckon that's another misrepresentation - we don't need Usain Bolt when Krankl provides the exact features we're looking for given his quickness in bursts and movement as someone who was much more than a basic in-box number 9. He was quick off the marks (again we don't need an overly rapid player to use the tactic when he's staying fairly up-field), very active with the ability to go wider when he senses opportunity, and very much suited to a high-tempo counter team in terms of holding the defense vertically as the spearhead, or being an outlet at crosses. To state otherwise is disingenuous.



Pulling wider:


I don't know what this is about when the specifics have been touched upon already (starting with the gif). Drag whom along with them? The scheme calls for our players to monitor their zones (relative to team-mates) and pay attention to their team-mates' positions, the spaces in front of them and potential passing opportunities, not follow Rivelino and Schuster around.

@harms made a video on Krankl that's on dailymotion if I remember correctly

 

[Ecstatic]

@Invictus @idmanager some amazing posts in here guys, good job

Yes absolutely

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

- You have a great squad: not surprised that some have considered him as one of the best 3 drafters

- Your team is very offensive: a striker, a support striker, a #10, and 2 playmakers. Surprised that Schuster is described as a B2B.

Battle midfield

- Platini is obviously your best asset and no doubt he would shine here. Dinu-Vierchowood-Blanc will suffer obviously as your attack is centrally oriented.

- Probably overly offensive in this context: Koeman is great but isn't a tireless destroyer with a high work-rate (like Makélélé) who would potentially bring the required balance and enable Rivelino/Schuster to do their stuff. Also, the fullback are asked to be offensive. Koeman would be good as a defensive midfielder but he isn't a world-class midfielder like Stielike (5 times La Liga foreign player of the year against 2 for Schuster btw): so it's strange to think Stielike couldn't do the job in my team as a #6 in a 3-5-2 system while you do believe the slow Koeman would do it in this context.

- On the other hand,

----> Dinu would be the equivalent of your Koeman
----> Matthaus is a the ultimate box-to-box par excellence (you don't have a B2B because Schuster is more a central holding midfielder)
----> the defensive contribution Hagi is pretty high for a playmaker: we are talking about

Also, Rivelino used to play with Brazil in a tactical system with a limited required defensive contribution:
----> the duo Tostao/Pele
----> Rivelino on the left + Jairzinho
----> 2 midfielders to support the front 4: clodoaldo, gerson

On the other hand, Schuster would be more familiar with the attributed role but - contrary to Germany 1980* or Barcelona 80-85* - there isn't a Rummenige (Germany 80), a Pedraza/Simonsen (Barcelona) or a Michel (Real Madrid 88-90) to protect the exposed Schuster on the right flank.


* career peak of Schuster between 79 & 85. He notably scored 87 goals in 239 games with Barcelona

-Dzajic and Hagi (the Roumanian can be a disciplined player defensively) bring trickery on the left while Lato & Matthaus are powerful & sharp players

To sum up my views:

1. You deserve to pass this round because you have clearly one of the top 8 teams in this draft
2. You have great players but your team is overly offensive for my taste given the opposing team: you lose 3-2

Can you name the scorers and times too?

 

[Ecstatic]

Can you name the scorers and times too?

Idmanager: Platini + Lubanski
Invic: Matthaus + Krankl + Lato

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Idmanager: Platini + Lubanski
Invic: Matthaus + Krankl + Lato

And tomorrow's national lottery numbers? (I'll cut you 20%)

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

1. You deserve to pass this round because you have clearly one of the top 8 teams in this draft

There are only 9 teams left in this draft currently

 

[Ecstatic]

There are only 9 teams left in this draft currently

Sorry, I don't understand. 16 teams in the draft so 8 to reach the QF?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Sorry, I don't understand. 16 teams in the draft so 8 to reach the QF?

Nothing mate, just a lousy attempt at a joke.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Edgar Davids fits into any team.

This^
I'd rather Davids in place of Rivellino or Hagi for their respective sides.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

This^
I'd rather Davids in place of Rivellino or Hagi for their respective sides.

Hagi

You mean Dinu? Hagi is perfect there.

 

[Gio]

Edgar Davids fits into any team.

True. Even stole the show in his emergency troubleshooting gig at Barcelona.

 

[idmanager]

Thanks for the posts.

@Ecstatic , Regarding Stielike and Koeman, I still believe Stielike would be over worked there and I do concede on further thought that Koeman is not enough defensive cover in here. Although, since mine is lot more a possession based system unlike yours, I could live with it while your team couldn't have IMO. No bias, I don't mind pointing out the flaws in my team as well.

I have talked enough about his midfield and mine and would prefer to not go in circles anymore.

I still wouldn't concede that zonal marking would work here. Lato/Hagi tracking back or helping defensively is one thing, being in shape for zonal marking the whole game is not their cup of tea IMO. Which is where I still feel Lothar wouldn't be as successful as people expect him to be here.

I have no qualms about playing Rivellino there. You need to watch him and his style to understand how deep he played or started off from. I have already conceded yesterday that him against Lothar is not ideal obviously, so not discussing that.

I think the mistake I did was not making the right decision w.r.t my formation choices which I was struggling to finalize one till the day of the match.

I had a total of 3 formations in my mind.

1. With Koeman in midfield.
2. With Jansen in midfield
3. No wingbacks at all -> This was the one I was struggling to pick but actually should have gone with.

P.S: Tarantini played with Pasarella on the left and used to play the role of LCB quite often in a tucked role.

Jansen and Koeman both capable of dropping back and helping out the defence.
Should have realized I had way too much offensive strength and could have done without fullbacks.
Something like this would have left Jansen to deal with Matthaus when need be.

 

[idmanager]

Anyways, good game @Invictus.
Was fun discussing this. Good luck going ahead. And please win the draft, so that I could at least say, "Heyy, I lost to the winner, so that is okay"

I do plan to make my first video compilation soon though of Rivellino. Never done that, so need to learn editing videos first.
I read some of the older draft games involving him here and the way he was being used was totally wrong in most cases.
Think people got used to playing him in the wrong role or positions and the reputation kept logic and his playing style away.
Deserves to be watched more and played the right away.

 

[Ecstatic]

Thanks for the posts.

In the last draft, you were unhappy by the lack of comments.

@Ecstatic , Regarding Stielike and Koeman, I still believe Stielike would be over worked there. I could live with it while your team couldn't have IMO. No bias, I don't mind pointing out the flaws in my team as well.

Well, my team had 5 defenders + Stielike + the very disciplined Häßler + Laudrup/Rush/Gullit who aren't burdens defensively. Cruyff is great, ok but I'm not overly impressed by Weah/Bettega. So, let's agree to disagree about my defensive strategy because it isn't the right thread :-)

and I do concede on further thought that Koeman is not enough defensive cover in here. Although, since mine is lot more a possession based system unlike yours. Which is where I still feel Lothar wouldn't be as successful as people expect him to be here.

Koeman is a great defensive midfielder and I get the possession based system: he is the perfect DM in terms of playmaking skills

Your team is superb on the ball, but off the ball there is a missing link IMO.

On the assumptions that you want to have a fantastic Platini and that France 84 was a balanced team, what do we see?

- Lubanski/Dalglish largely better than Lacombe/Bellone
- Giresse and Schuster are 2 excellent playmakers
- Tigana is a pure box-to-box
- Fernandez is an aggressive defensive midfielder, underrated probably but great: my own short-list was Fernadez/Stielike/Velasquez for my team

I don't see the aggressive player to protect your front 3 so I expect your creative midfielders to be sacrificed

Although, since mine is lot more a possession based system unlike yours.
I still wouldn't concede that zonal marking would work here. Lato/Hagi tracking back or helping defensively is one thing, being in shape for zonal marking the whole game is not their cup of tea IMO.

Also, you don't have the players/system to kidnap the ball 70% of the time. I also understand you think Hagi & Lato aren't disciplined defensively.

I have no qualms about playing Rivellino there. You need to watch him and his style to understand how deep he played or started off from. I have already conceded yesterday that him against Lothar is not ideal obviously, so not discussing that.

As far as I'm concerned, I watched all your midfielders and offensive players. Rivelino would defend more than usual.

I think the mistake I did was not making the right decision w.r.t my formation choices which I was struggling to finalize one till the day of the match.

I had a total of 3 formations in my mind.

1. With Koeman in midfield.
2. With Jansen in midfield
3. No wingbacks at all -> This was the one I was struggling to pick but actually should have gone with.

P.S: Tarantini played with Pasarella on the left and used to play the role of LCB quite often in a tucked role.

Jansen and Koeman both capable of dropping back and helping out the defence.
Should have realized I had way too much offensive strength and could have done without fullbacks.
Something like this would have left Jansen to deal with Matthaus when need be.

@Šjor Bepo would have loved this team

I have talked enough about his midfield and mine and would prefer to not go in circles anymore.

Sure.

2mufc lost his 2 first games and won the following draft. You can do the same

 

[Invictus]

Good game @idmanager, and great effort for someone who hasn't played a lot of Redcafe drafts...as a neutral, I'd imagine you were a veteran in these games! Fabulous picks, and quality argumentation in the match thread - really promising performance following the 4-Way draft.

I do plan to make my first video compilation soon though of Rivellino. Never done that, so need to learn editing videos first.
I read some of the older draft games involving him here and the way he was being used was totally wrong in most cases.
Think people got used to playing him in the wrong role or positions and the reputation kept logic and his playing style away.
Deserves to be watched more and played the right away.

Will definitely keep an eye out for this. I've always had him pegged as a Laudrup or Iniesta type of tricky operator through the inside left channel who also chipped in with an above average amount of teamwork (with a cannon short and comparable levels of brilliance at dribbling but slightly weaker passing ability) - particularly after watching the '74 World Cup (had to scout Van Hanegem, Carpegiani, Jairzinho and Haan), but maybe that opinion is erroneous - and there's more to his game in terms of comprehensiveness than meets the eyes.