Ten Hag - Positioning / Shape analysis

Fergies Formula

Full Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2007
Messages
3,960
Location
Brighton
I saw this on sky sports this morning which highlights a significant failings by ten hag which never seems to be addressed and ultimately displays his lack or control over our on the field shape and positioning.

We continually fail to control games and are exposed repeatedly by weak opposition and for me is the key reason behind our inconsistent approach to games.

Whether that is players not following his direction or him not noticing the problem itself- either way it's not good enough and has led me to a point where I now question is he the right man?

Thoughts.

 

Wednesday at Stoke

Full Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2014
Messages
21,694
Location
Copenhagen
Supports
Time Travel
It can’t be that different sets of back 4 collectively wanting to hold a deep line when the manager is asking them to play higher for half a season. That’s clueless management to either not know better or fail to get buy in from the players.
 

romufc

Full Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2019
Messages
12,557
I have been saying this for a while... you can't defend deep and press high. Every game, our midfield is bypassed by a simple 1-2..

There is no way a team can press high without the defenders pressing high. How Ten Hag cannot see this and he is apparently detail orientated?
 

hobbers

Full Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
28,313
It's obvious our players are not coached what to do when the opponent has the ball. It's been obvious all season. Every attack we get overloaded. Every goal is a cut back to an unmarked player while Casemiro/McT/Eriksen/whoever fail to track back.

And when we do have the ball, Bruno, one other midfielder, both wingers and one or both full backs push so far up the pitch they remove themselves from the equation for passes and make possession impossible for whichever poor sod in the middle is stuck with the ball, usually Varane or Casemiro.

We've seen it all season, and anyone here who understands the first thing about football has been tearing their hair out at it all season. It's the most painfully obvious shit coaching we've ever been exposed to.
 

CloneMC16

Full Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2021
Messages
4,496
We've been setting up the same way out of possession since the first game of the season against Wolves. There is a huge gap between our defence and the rest of the team. The entire front 6/7 is bypassed in a couple passes and the opposition are running at our CB's. I don't believe this is the players failing at following instructions. It happens every game. This is how ETH is asking them to setup.

If our players are seriously failing at what they're being asked to do, ETH needs to change the setup. We did last season after losing our first two games.
 

NinjaZombie

Punched the air when Liverpool beat City
Joined
Dec 7, 2011
Messages
10,162
I have been saying this for a while... you can't defend deep and press high. Every game, our midfield is bypassed by a simple 1-2..

There is no way a team can press high without the defenders pressing high. How Ten Hag cannot see this and he is apparently detail orientated?
It's madness. I can only think he wants to have his cake and eat it too. Implement his high pressing system, whilst not wanting to expose Maguire (too slow) and Varane (too injury prone to play an intense high press) by playing a high line, because if he pushes them up, there'll be discourse on MNF about them being exposed to criticism and a likely revolt. So he's banking on Casemiro to be a top professional, suck it up and superman it to deal with the overloads in midfield. Unfortunately, Casemiro is the one who looks past it by playing this way.
 

Sarni

nice guy, unassuming, objective United fan.
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Messages
57,723
Location
Krakow
It has nothing to do with tactics, it is unprecedented, historical injury crisis and not a single manager in the world would have done better.
 

SparkedIntoLife

Full Member
Joined
May 15, 2013
Messages
1,146
It has nothing to do with tactics, it is unprecedented, historical injury crisis and not a single manager in the world would have done better.
Does Ten Hag deserve any blame for the injury crisis though? Isn't it his and his staff's responsibility to get the players in a good condition for the season ahead? Lots of murmurs suggest that the players were over-trained in the Summer. I get the accusations that they are entitled moaners and brief all sorts of complaints to the press but it could actually have some validity.
 

Sarni

nice guy, unassuming, objective United fan.
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Messages
57,723
Location
Krakow
Does Ten Hag deserve any blame for the injury crisis though? Isn't it his and his staff's responsibility to get the players in a good condition for the season ahead? Lots of murmurs suggest that the players were over-trained in the Summer. I get the accusations that they are entitled moaners and brief all sorts of complaints to the press but it could actually have some validity.
He is absolved of any blame whatsoever. If our players should have played less last year, for example not play in games we did not need them in at all, he should have been told by his staff to rest them. If trainings should have been lighter, physios and coaches should have told him. It is not ten Hag's job to keep track of any of that.
 

Xaviboy

Full Member
Joined
May 17, 2018
Messages
988
Location
Dublin
Must of stuck to the 14km runs he had the players doing after Brentford defeat last year for every training session now.

Can see why now the players don't look tactically trained plus look knackered and carrying injuries all time.
 

Licha-Vidic

Last Man Standing 2 finalist 2023/24
Joined
Jan 9, 2023
Messages
1,372
I wrote about this, some 5 months ago. It's very visible and apparent.
It's easily solvable but ETH doesn't seem to understand what's going on.


I may not be a coach but through my naked eye I can see what the problem is and what immediate solution can be done to change how we play..

Our problems.
  • Carelessness in possession.
  • Very big distance between players - - ( this makes passes hard to do,to get it right, our players getting isolated etc)

What the above problems bring forth.

  • Incredible turn overs. Our games are ping pong games. Huge spaces in between.
  • Zero football control at best.
  • Huge physical and mental output to achieve minimal results. 1 nil wins/last minute wins every other game while you've run alot without the ball.

Immediate solution to the above mentioned problems.

1. Squeeze the pitch to about the round circle in the middle. In that our striker should be top of the circle line, and our last defender be at the last tip of the circle.
This will in turn help immensely and immediately on
  • a). Possession. - we will be able to play and turn in rings - what people call patterns of play, overloading of pitch, quick passes, quick runs, cut backs etc

  • b). With players being near each other, passes will be simple, players will require less physical demand covering huge space, Hollywood passes will decrease by virtual of players are next to each other.

  • c). We will attack and defend as a block. - this is the main glaring evidence of how wrong we set-up. Every other team just attack us directly in the middle & we have no solution to it. Because we leave huge amount of space in the middle.

  • d). Our players will start playing one twos football. Rashford main weaknesses is running through opposition players, this is brought about by the fact not many players are there for quick one two, he resorts to just running with the ball. You wonder why our attack has no patterns, this is the main reason.

2. Any player who can't play in a squeezed pitch should be benched. If Bruno can't recycle the football in a stacked midfield like Odegaard bench him, if Rashford can't play one - twos like other wingers he should be benched. If Varane or whoever is in defence can't play a high line then benched them.
We have alot of players who need huge amount of spaces for them to play. This is not feasible in 2023.


Will it be easy? absolutely not, but if the team is coached properly in few weeks the blueprint will be there. The hardest part will be dropping these huge ego players who can't play this kind of football.

Anything other thing than change of style will be just going round in circles and the inevitable will happen.
 

romufc

Full Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2019
Messages
12,557
It's madness. I can only think he wants to have his cake and eat it too. Implement his high pressing system, whilst not wanting to expose Maguire (too slow) and Varane (too injury prone to play an intense high press) by playing a high line, because if he pushes them up, there'll be discourse on MNF about them being exposed to criticism and a likely revolt. So he's banking on Casemiro to be a top professional, suck it up and superman it to deal with the overloads in midfield. Unfortunately, Casemiro is the one who looks past it by playing this way.
Yep, its always the case, I watch us and think.. why do teams get so much joy in possession against us? Then I watch other teams, the distance between the defensive line and midfield is very narrow, ours is very deep. You cannot expect your CM to cover that ground. Its either we start of with a mid block or we all press high. You cant do one or the other.

Casemiro generally gets left in no mans land. I also think Bruno is a big issue in the team shape and needs to be dropped. I want to see a midfield of Casemiro Kobbie and Mount when he is back.
 

dcrompton

Full Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2003
Messages
1,244
Location
The Cock of the North
Carragher actually makes a good point that even within the first 20 seconds of the Fulham game you can see United are set-up wrong if you see Mainoo has to decide between marking 2 men. Mainoo is too big of a talent to jeopardise by having him badly coached so early in his career. He’s also being forced to play too much as ETH doesn’t rotate the squad well so likely to also get injured. At this stage, ETH looks naive and stubborn tactically, doesn’t seem like a good man manager if you look at those frozen out or just the general body language of the squad. He doesn’t seem able to identify talent or what’s required at Premier league level (Antony, Weghorst, Sabitzer, Amrabat) So at this stage, he doesn’t really have much going for him
 

Grande

Full Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2007
Messages
6,338
Location
The Land of Do-What-You-Will
I have been saying this for a while... you can't defend deep and press high. Every game, our midfield is bypassed by a simple 1-2..

There is no way a team can press high without the defenders pressing high. How Ten Hag cannot see this and he is apparently detail orientated?
He has seen it, and commented upon it. It is an obvious problem. We had the same problem under Solskjær and Rangnik as well. We had less of that problem last season. It was evident vs Man City and Aston Villa in I think Octobre, but evidently got dealt with relatively succesfully for most parts of most games. This was a point of enthusiasm for me last season, as I was doubtful that we had enough players at the club capable of playing that way at all for more than 20 mins, and Ten Hag was the first coach overseing a fairly well functioning high press at United ever.

This season, it’s back to how it looked when Solaskjær or Rangnik (and even Mourinho for a very short period of time) tried to implement variants of high press. It looks good for 20 mins here, 15 mins there, but as soon as something doesn’t function, one player, then two, then three and four falls out of the cohesion.

Cohesion in high press is partly having a good plan with established variants to suit different match situations, partly a question of having players suited to the challenges that high press gives, partly a question of well drilled and established relations, and one very big part of belief and confidence in the collective. What ruins it is one overeager/desperate player pressing too early, or one insecure defender pulling too slowly upfield. Then the others are fecked, and the next time one more will hold back too long or go into press too early, or fall back too late.

If it hadn’t been for last season, and the fact that he has had two different versions of Ajax developping that cohesion on a very high level, I would worry that Ten Hag doesn’t have the tactical know how. I don’t worry about that so much.

The fact that the press cohesion is such a repetitive problem this season, for me points to the other three factors: Player profiles, relations and confidence/belief.

We have several players that more or less doesn’t suit the profile of cohesive high press: Rashford doesn’t press well, is slow to fall back, and is quick to leave the team when going on deep runs (a strength of his, but will regularily stretch the team). Bruno is eager and hardworking, but easily overeager or takes impulsive individual decisions, Garnacho has the work ethic, but is only developing the positional understanding and sometimes switches off when we lose the ball, Martial presses intelligently and diligently, but without intensity, McTominay isn’t positionally smart enough, Mainoo see Garnacho, Amrabat is slow, Casemiro is slow, Maguire, Varane 2.0 and Lindelöf aren’t fast enough, strong enough or sure enough to fancy the high line. The players of a right profile (Onana, Martinez, Shaw, Antony, Mount, Højlund) are either young, new, not of required quality and/or injured too much. To have the right player profiles for high pressing cohesive football will take at least two more windows, to get players of the right profile with the right quality might take longer.

Relations: This is easy and obvious, the injuries and other forced rotations all since during preseason had us with less well established player relations all over the pitch. Players lack the inbetween flow and timing that is the difference between tight cohesion or looser structure. To which degree this is coaching related is debated, but it’s certainly a relevant factor to why we lack cohesion and look as if we have an inexplicable game plan.

Belief/confidence: this is huge for a defender/DM faced with the splitsecond decision of going full sprint away from goal or moving more cautiously. If a defender isn’t certain the attacking players can snuff out or pressure the opponents ball players enough, they will be naturally hestitant to open up acres of space behund themselves. If the defender is not the fastest, or of a pensive type, this will double it up. Likewise if one attacker isn’t adamant the midfield andd defense aren’t tightening the hole behind them, they might hestitate to push forward in pressure, and if some of the other attackers stick to plan but one or two doesn’t do it fullheartedly, we are easily bypassed, and the defenders are running homewards.

The one point is that a non-functioning high press will often look like we do, as if we play 4-1-5 by plan and have huge stretch between defense and attack as default, or fall back and soak up pressure even against inferior teams. This is very obviously not the plan, nor the probably endlessly repeated and rehearsed instructions, but weak execution (due to above factors) makes it look that way. iMO
 

dabronxolivera

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Oct 22, 2022
Messages
174
Supports
Al Hilal
He is absolved of any blame whatsoever. If our players should have played less last year, for example not play in games we did not need them in at all, he should have been told by his staff to rest them. If trainings should have been lighter, physios and coaches should have told him. It is not ten Hag's job to keep track of any of that.
Of course ! He's the perfect manager and all these losses are none of his fault. The players are just dumbos who cant follow his genius plan and the physios are stealing a living. If not for him we would be fighting relegation. We really need to appoint him for life, build a statue of him beside Sir Alex's and name the new stadium with his name
 

Zed 101

Full Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2014
Messages
1,454
The one point is that a non-functioning high press will often look like we do, as if we play 4-1-5 by plan and have huge stretch between defense and attack as default, or fall back and soak up pressure even against inferior teams. This is very obviously not the plan, nor the probably endlessly repeated and rehearsed instructions, but weak execution (due to above factors) makes it look that way. iMO
So whose fault is that? okay so one match the players get it wrong, but match, after match, after match.... if it is very obviously not the plan then why has ETH not been able to train the team to follow the plan, or if the players he has are incapable of doing this, playing a system that doesn't disintegrate

Players can be blamed for individual bad performances and/or mistakes, but when it comes to repeated abject failures against teams circling the drain, then the buck stops at one place and one place only.
 

FerociousCorgis

Full Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2017
Messages
4,356
It has nothing to do with tactics, it is unprecedented, historical injury crisis and not a single manager in the world would have done better.
this makes no sense. A top level manager should be able to get players at this level to at least attempt to play a certain philosophy, regardless of injuries. Weve seen a similar setup regardless of who is available to play CM so far, so safe to say this is how EtH wants to set up. Safe to also say that most of us can see that it is suicidal and places way too much on a single DM. I understand that different managers have different philosophies on what they want their midfield to do, but man this is quite possibly the worst setup ive seen from a manager consistently.
To sit there and say we cant judge a manager unless things go perfectly with squad availability is just a cop out. You want one of the top managerial positions in the world, you better show that you have something special and be able to overcome a little adversity.
 

Fergies Formula

Full Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2007
Messages
3,960
Location
Brighton
Ten Hag needs to be held accountable for the continual failings here, and must learn and address this issue if he wants to stay at the helm into next season.

If he can find a way of getting us into top 4, or even pushing for that position until the last few games, then given the injury track record we have experienced this season, then under a new management structure, he might be worth giving another season to see if he can improve.

We have to see an improvement in this particular area though as for me this is the fundamental reason why we are so easy to play against when we are up against mid/ lower league teams.
 

soapythecat

Full Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2006
Messages
3,792
Location
Glasgow resident these days.
I'd love to be a fly on the wall at the post match analysis session he must surely do with his coaching team. At what stage do they say 'This sounds familiar' every fecking week before the clown realises his tactics are shit. We will be having the same talk after Forest walk through the middle of the team at will tomorrow night, and again after we suffer humiliation against City at the weekend - which hopefully will see the clump sacked.
 

Redstain

Full Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2019
Messages
1,306
When the analysists of the game are discombobulated over the teams performances, why is there an element of surprise when the manager last year stated that he's proactively mixing two philosophies together between his playing concept at Ajax and the values of the United DNA? Two completely unrelated cultures.

This is subsequently the root cause behind all the disproportional elements of the teams performances this season. It's impossible for there to be clarity with what he's asking the players to do, because his ideology is one that hasn't shown signs of working previously in management.

Pep for instance doesn't play an exact variance of his tiki-taka philosophy when at Barcelona with City, but fundamentally the profile of his teams all exhibit the same characteristics. So he's not a duck out of water with his ideology, there's much semblance between the playing styles of the previous teams he's managed as he stays true to himself, creating authenticity behind what he's doing and his teams being able to demonstrate that.

That is a stark difference with Eth, I think managers are required and entitled to try new things but you can't stray too far outside of the games foundations without anticipating problems.
 

ColvaleGoa

Full Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2010
Messages
4,613
Location
Susegaad!
Why is it that watching Liverpool, Arsenal and many teams is heavy meta?l. Break neck speed. Their players seem like Energizer bunny.

Whilst we are like a broken Oil tanker that doesn't move. We have speed limiter of 20 mph.
Where is the intensity? I just can't get my head around this.
 

Rams

aspiring to be like Ryan Giggs
Joined
Apr 20, 2000
Messages
42,598
Location
midtable anonymity
Why isn’t anybody mentioning, let alone post a video, of ten Hag’s response towards the criticism this afternoon? You’d think there’s some kind of agenda against him in here.
 

UpWithRivers

Full Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2013
Messages
3,653
Why isn’t anybody mentioning, let alone post a video, of ten Hag’s response towards the criticism this afternoon? You’d think there’s some kind of agenda against him in here.
He said it was only first half an hour. But that's bullsht because we have seen it all season. Plus he has obviously been watching MNF. Weird. He should have said I have no idea I don't watch it.
 

V.O.

Last Man Standing finalist 2019/20
Joined
Jan 12, 2019
Messages
8,024
He said it was only first half an hour. But that's bullsht because we have seen it all season. Plus he has obviously been watching MNF. Weird. He should have said I have no idea I don't watch it.
Managers will get some kind of briefing about any paper stories or pundit angles that might lead to a question in a press conference. It doesn't mean he's necessarily watching every second of MNF or reading every word written in the back few pages of every tabloid.

Though I don't really see a problem even if he does.
 

Bobski

Full Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2017
Messages
9,961
Carragher was fairly mild for the omnishambles Ten Hag has created this season. None of it makes sense.
 

UpWithRivers

Full Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2013
Messages
3,653
Managers will get some kind of briefing about any paper stories or pundit angles that might lead to a question in a press conference. It doesn't mean he's necessarily watching every second of MNF or reading every word written in the back few pages of every tabloid.

Though I don't really see a problem even if he does.
Because it should be beneath him. What's next - Hey the United stand says sell Bruno. Did you watch it?
 

RedStarUnited

Full Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Messages
8,136
Why isn’t anybody mentioning, let alone post a video, of ten Hag’s response towards the criticism this afternoon? You’d think there’s some kind of agenda against him in here.
Erik ten Hag on Jamie Carragher's criticism:

First of all, some analysts are very objective in their comments and very good advice, while some are very subjective. Jamie Carragher, from the first moment on, has criticised, and now he wants to make his point. Probably in the first half an hour, yeah, he had a point. Fulham in their midfield set up surprised us a little bit and then we have to find the solutions. After half an hour we found the solutions."

so as far as he saw, we only suffered in the first 30 mins - which is a lie. He goes on to say…

"I was not pleased with the performance [against Fulham] with the defending, especially on the left side, how we did the pressing because they came out, especially in the first half an hour. Several times on the left side and that can't happen and that has to do with willingness, spirit, passion. That was in the previous weeks very good for this team and therefore, we won football games."

Now he says that we have been very good in the past weeks, another lie we have been bad all 2024 and have won games by small margins.

He also says…

Erik ten Hag: "When you are unbeaten for January and February, then you lose one game...Obviously it was a poor performance, poor defeat. We want to stay in every competiton. That doesn't change our approach, because that is for every match."

So this is why we are so bad. Our manager wont change.
 

mintyred

New Member
Newbie
Joined
May 3, 2023
Messages
309
I saw this on sky sports this morning which highlights a significant failings by ten hag which never seems to be addressed and ultimately displays his lack or control over our on the field shape and positioning.

We continually fail to control games and are exposed repeatedly by weak opposition and for me is the key reason behind our inconsistent approach to games.

Whether that is players not following his direction or him not noticing the problem itself- either way it's not good enough and has led me to a point where I now question is he the right man?

Thoughts.

They're clearly coached to do this because it happens no matter who plays. People said Bruno and Mount did it because they're attacking players but Mainoo who is a CDM does it too as does Ericksen and McTom is just vibes. We apparently can't play a high line due to our CBs so instead we're playing a low block with our forwards pressing high with a midfielder on his own hoping that God is with him.

It's a coaching disaster class.