The ”holding” mf grinds my gears.

[simplyared]

Seems every mf today is holding. What do they actually do? They’re not creative. They’re seldom under pressure having time to decide if it’s a pass sideways forward or backwards (more often it’s sideways) and they certainly are not seen running past players.

Players who have this role imo tend to be quite talented therefore as I see it it’s often a case of wasted talent. Prime example: Calvin Phillips under Bielsa or even for his country under Southgate. Bearing in my mind we could afford to have had two such talented players both on the pitch at the same in the last Euro competition.

Apart from the above mentioned negative aspects it’s not even entertaining to watch. What’s happened to the box to box midfielder who for me is far more entertaining, certainly more effective and not the least far more honest.

Seeing the likes of Roy Keene with his drive, positioning, energy you name it, working from both ends of the field was glory to watch. All we’re seeing now is a bunch of show ponies hardly getting a sweat on.

I’m looking at the PL and finding it difficult to find a top BtoB mf performing in todays football. Obviously modern day tactics have had something to do with it?

Pity whatever!

 

[Bubz27]

 

[Withnail]

 

[The Cat]

I've seen Rice for example run past plenty of players.

 

[do.ob]

Ok boomer

 

[bosnian_red]

The problem is nobody is a proper holding midfielder and they're so hard to find? Someone like Carrick is perfect for the modern game. Where everyone is crazy with the high pressing and quick actions, it is absolutely vital to have a midfielder who can plug the gaps between the midfield and defence, stay in position and keep things organized defensively. On the ball, they're absolutely vital for ball progression. That's creativity, just not the way you're thinking. You need creativity to pass the ball effectively and quickly to your attackers in good positions. We lack that deep passer who can also keep things organized defensively.

The reason box to box midfielders aren't that useful anymore is because it leaves a midfield really unorganized. You need your midfield to stay organized otherwise you just get a massive gap.

Wasted talent is such a weird argument when they take up one of the most important roles in modern football, a huge defensive burden as well as the key to progressing the ball and setting the tempo to the game. You don't need to get goals/assists from midfield, and frankly I don't give a feck about goal or assist stats from deeper midfielders. I care about their progressive passing stats and their defensive positioning more than anything, along with not being careless/sloppy on the ball. You want consistency and reliability.

 

[David De Gea]

Found Ole's Caf account...

 

[red_de_pologne]

I read mf as "mofo", makes a fun reading

 

[do.ob]

The problem is nobody is a proper holding midfielder and they're so hard to find? Someone like Carrick is perfect for the modern game. Where everyone is crazy with the high pressing and quick actions, it is absolutely vital to have a midfielder who can plug the gaps between the midfield and defence, stay in position and keep things organized defensively. On the ball, they're absolutely vital for ball progression. That's creativity, just not the way you're thinking. You need creativity to pass the ball effectively and quickly to your attackers in good positions. We lack that deep passer who can also keep things organized defensively.

The reason box to box midfielders aren't that useful anymore is because it leaves a midfield really unorganized. You need your midfield to stay organized otherwise you just get a massive gap.

Box to box midfielders are still a thing though? It's just that in a typical 433 they play one of the two more attacking CM positions.

 

[Cascarino]

Seems every mf today is holding. What do they actually do?

For the bolded, I don't see how you've come to this conclusion unless you have a very rigid definition of what counts as a midfielder. Every team has a mix of midfielders, holding, attacking and some who are heavily involved in both. There's all types and prominent examples.

They’re not creative. They’re seldom under pressure having time to decide if it’s a pass sideways forward or backwards (more often it’s sideways) and they certainly are not seen running past players. Players who have this role imo tend to be quite talented therefore as I see it it’s often a case of wasted talent. Prime example: Calvin Phillips under Bielsa or even for his country under Southgate. Bearing in my mind we could afford to have had two such talented players both on the pitch at the same in the last Euro competition.

Being a holding midfielder doesn't mean you're not creative, nor does it necessarily mean you're only involved in the defensive part of the game. Pirlo was a holding midfielder who flourished when stepping back from the 10 role. Carrick was a holding midfielder who was good defensively but also provided an attacking impetus with clever passing. Jorginho is more conservative with his passing but is the metronomic heart of his side, constantly positioning himself as an available outlet to recycle the ball and keep possession, drawing players out. Rodri performs a similar role for City, as well as being metronomic with his passing he also has an expansive range.

It's a position that oftens requires a large amount of technical quality depending on the role, and for any in that position requires football intelligence.

Apart from the above mentioned negative aspects it’s not even entertaining to watch. What’s happened to the box to box midfielder who for me is far more entertaining, certainly more effective and not the least far more honest.

Seeing the likes of Roy Keene with his drive, positioning, energy you name it, working from both ends of the field was glory to watch. All we’re seeing now is a bunch of show ponies hardly getting a sweat on.

I’m looking at the PL and finding it difficult to find a top BtoB mf performing in todays football. Obviously modern day tactics have had something to do with it?

Pity whatever!

The entertainment point is subjective but I understand where you're coming from. The traditional example of a box to box was a lot of fun to watch. I don't agree that holding midfielders aren't fun to watch though, in fact some of my favourite players to watch would be classed as holding midfielders. You mention Roy Keane but towards the end of his career when he lacked the mobility to function in the same way he used to, he had some excellent entertaining games as someone who read the game perfectly, able to shackle opponent midfields through intelligence. The Manchester United side of 2007/2008 made great use of the Carrick and Scholes combination, with Carrick's clever positioning and Scholes ability to dictate play from deep, as well as to quickly transition from defence to attack with those beautiful diagonals. Alonso was as classy on the ball as he was tenacious off it, in the modern game the likes of Thiago is very fun to watch, Kimmich is entertaining. I was a massive fan of dembele at Tottenham, a wonderfully press resistant midfielder who carried the ball beautifully.

 

[Sandikan]

It is the most annoying "recent" (ish!) Development in the game isn't it.

You used to have 2 in midfield, both got up and back as a rule. One could be more creative and one more defensive, but not like today's sidewards playing, limited ability often one of three mids.

 

[Skills]

It's a sacrifice teams have made to allow 2 very attacking full backs to bomb up the flanks, and allow your wingers to play as wide forwards.

 

[Superden]

its all about pass percentages. utterly meaningless stat that has taken over the game inside and outside the dressing room.

 

[tenpoless]

Rob holding

 

[GueRed]

didnt it start with Makelele twenty years ago or something?

remember all the fuss with that trend and the 'Makelele role'

now its evolved into 'holding' 'DM' role, sounds like the same shit tbh

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

Kanté is a box to box midfielder that plays best in a two that would be a match for any midfielder of Keane’s era.

 

[adexkola]

Kanté is a box to box midfielder that plays best in a two that would be a match for any midfielder of Keane’s era.

No he wouldn't, the best b2b midfielders had more about them going forward. Kante is great for winning the ball but he struggles with more responsibility.

 

[Zehner]

Subtlety isn't for everybody. I rate those CMs much more than their spectacular counter parts who attempt Hollywood passes and long shots all the time.

 

[Bebestation]

Football was much more individualised back then. You could have Carrick pinging balls accurately all over the pitch playing deep as a CDM, a player in a position that is guarding CB'S. These CB'S back then were also less likely to be ball playing ones than the ones we see more regularly today.

Now a days, not only do you need the right individual at the right time doing the right thing - you also need all 11 players doing the same thing at the same time aswell. It's been like this since Guardiola's Barcelona's possesion football and then the following of Klopp's Dortmund in the CL final which popularised Gegenpressing.

 

[Deery]

I hate Holding too Arsenal twat..

 

[abundance]

Yeah midfielders are holding football back.
Teams should play six wingers, four fullbacks and a box to box keeper.

 

[NoLogo]

No idea what OP is talking about, pretty much the prototype of a modern midfielder everyone is after these days is surely the box to box midfielder. I'd argue specialist roles are dying more and more due to the fact that positional changes during games have become more and more relevant.

 

[Based Adnan]

Holding midfield is arguably the hardest position in football outside of GK. There's a reason good box to box players are a dime a dozen but good holding players not so much.

 

[Ekeke]

Seems every mf today is holding. What do they actually do? They’re not creative. They’re seldom under pressure having time to decide if it’s a pass sideways forward or backwards (more often it’s sideways) and they certainly are not seen running past players.

Players who have this role imo tend to be quite talented therefore as I see it it’s often a case of wasted talent. Prime example: Calvin Phillips under Bielsa or even for his country under Southgate. Bearing in my mind we could afford to have had two such talented players both on the pitch at the same in the last Euro competition.

Apart from the above mentioned negative aspects it’s not even entertaining to watch. What’s happened to the box to box midfielder who for me is far more entertaining, certainly more effective and not the least far more honest.

Seeing the likes of Roy Keene with his drive, positioning, energy you name it, working from both ends of the field was glory to watch. All we’re seeing now is a bunch of show ponies hardly getting a sweat on.

I’m looking at the PL and finding it difficult to find a top BtoB mf performing in todays football. Obviously modern day tactics have had something to do with it?

Pity whatever!

Phillips is actually a lot like Fred. He averages 2 more pressures this season than Fred does. Before anyone says anything, Leeds actually average 5th most possession in the league. 2.4% more than us. So the numbers are similar and its not because Phillips team has a lot less of the ball so there's more ball chasing to do.

I wouldnt think of either of them as "holding" because pressing brings you out and away from your position and surely the holding part is for holding position. Someone like Carrick would hold his position to cut off passing options and the defence would know where he is and what he's doing in front of them giving them a reference point.

As for the box to box midfielders I think its beause we see less 4-4-2 and more wide players scoring the goals.

A simple way to get more out of your attack is to get more players in the box, so you encourage your midfielder to get forward to get in there. But if you already have 2 wide players that only attack, 1 striker and 1 AM in the box then you're now joining as the 5th attacker. If it works out then its fine. But if you dont get a goal or corner etc from it then thats leaving 5 outfield players to deal with the counter attack.

In the past a lot of top wide players would be expected to help defend more. For example Beckham would be expected to track back. So you had more players who will work for the team and provide some honest defensive support at the back even if a central midfielder was caught up the pitch.

Now a lot of them "cheat" as Neville calls it, staying closer to the half way line and ready for the opponent's move to break down so they can get involved in a quick counter attack. And like strikers in the past, if they score a goal in a match to some extent its job done

 

[arthurka]

I've seen Rice for example run past plenty of players.

He has been really good this season. But he has a point though.

 

[Invictus]

didnt it start with Makelele twenty years ago or something?

The formalized principle behind a holding midfielder (i.e. someone who secures the vulnerable space ahead of the defense) is probably 90 years old, and was inspired by Charlie Roberts, interestingly enough (he was the center-half who captained Manchester United to its first League title and its first FA Cup, while making close to 300 appearances)!

It just so happened that a fresh-faced Italian student named Vittorio Pozzo was an ardent admirer of Roberts, and would later try to re-emulate some of his characteristics as the manager of the Azzurri. In the 1930s, he convinced the the tough-tackling and quick-thinking Luis Monti (who had reached the 1930 World Cup final with Argentina) to represent Italy and operate as a deep-lying center-halfback in his 2—3—2—3 Metodo scheme (essentially a defensive-minded reconfiguration of the more popular 2—3—5)...

Vittorio Pozzo, the coach of Italy, thought that Luisito was the perfect link between the talented forward Meazza and the defender Monziglio, therefore Monti received an invitation to participate in the 1934 World Cup. At that time, the rules permitted a player to represent more than one country in the World Cup and the "Oriundi", which is the italian term for a foreign player of italian descent, were very popular in their clubs, the idea of having "oriundi" players in the National Team was well accepted by the fans. Raimundo Orsi, Enrique Guaita and Luis Monti, all born in Argentina proved to be decisive elements in the 1934 World Cup. In the semifinal against Austria, Luis Monti was given a man-marking job on Matthias Sindelar, one of the most talented players of the decade, a task that Monti completed with a lot of success.

Planet World Cup Legends: Luis Monti

The rest is history — as Pozzo led his team to consecutive World Cup titles (a feat that remains untouched to this day). And over the years, the holding midfielder would become a mainstay in many others schools of football (like Néstor Gonçalves with Peñarol and Uruguay). Of course, the game was much more disorganized back; Monti himself was possessed of good playmaking nous and was by no means a purely destructive force, and it took several steps to reach the contemporary standard(s).

Makelélé was definitely an important benchmark of specialization as he took the eclectically inspired/defined holding midfield function to new limits with his selflessness, refined spatial awareness and near-complete dedication to his defensive responsibilities. But the role itself existed waaaay before him.

 

[Eplel]

It's called dictating tempo, and you can easily see it when it's not there, and your players lose the ball 5 seconds into the attack, while it takes another 5 seconds for the opposition to run through your own midfield. Textbook United under Ole.

 

[Dancfc]

Being a holding midfielder doesn't mean you're not creative, nor does it necessarily mean you're only involved in the defensive part of the game. Pirlo was a holding midfielder who flourished when stepping back from the 10 role. Carrick was a holding midfielder who was good defensively but also provided an attacking impetus with clever passing. Jorginho is more conservative with his passing but is the metronomic heart of his side, constantly positioning himself as an available outlet to recycle the ball and keep possession, drawing players out. Rodri performs a similar role for City, as well as being metronomic with his passing he also has an expansive range.

It's a position that oftens requires a large amount of technical quality depending on the role, and for any in that position requires football intelligence.

Yep I remember an example from a game under Sarri (when Jorginho was dividing Chelsea fans) that I used to explain his importance.

There was one stage in the match Barkley had the ball and was boxed in, Jorginho quickly spotted the danger the former was in and made sure he was available for an easy pass (despite being closely marked himself) and once receiving it passed it to an open Kante.

On the face of it a boring sideways pass but in reality his intelligence prevented a very dangerous turnover.

 

[RUCK4444]

Top holding midfielders are just extremely hard to find to be honest. They are a dying breed.

But if you have a top one like we did in Carrick or some of the best like Busquetes then it brings another dimension to your team and you can build around that. We’ve had nothing like that since Carrick.

Ole preferred all-rounders and said so, which is why he liked McFred, but in the modern game it’s better to have specialists and a top class sitting midfielder who screens the defence and dictates your play are worth their weight in gold.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Seeing the likes of Roy Keene with his drive, positioning, energy you name it, working from both ends of the field was glory to watch. All we’re seeing now is a bunch of show ponies hardly getting a sweat on.

It does my head in too, but not as much as seeing this.

 

[Scorpy]

Spoiler

 

[adexkola]

Yep I remember an example from a game under Sarri (when Jorginho was dividing Chelsea fans) that I used to explain his importance.

There was one stage in the match Barkley had the ball and was boxed in, Jorginho quickly spotted the danger the former was in and made sure he was available for an easy pass (despite being closest marked himself) and once receiving it passed it to an open Kante.

On the face of it a boring sideways pass but in reality his intelligence prevented a very dangerous turnover.

Another Jorginho example. I think it was Lampard who subbed him on in a game Chelsea was winning, but had no control over. He came on and Chelsea subsequently killed the game by holding onto the ball effectively with Jorginho at the end of it.

Has become a bit overrated after last season, but quality player and good example of the importance of a holding midfielder.

 

[harms]

didnt it start with Makelele twenty years ago or something?

remember all the fuss with that trend and the 'Makelele role'

now its evolved into 'holding' 'DM' role, sounds like the same shit tbh

Absolutely not. It's just how the press works.

 

[simplyared]

Give me a McGinn, Kovacic or even a Loftus-Cheek any day of the week before a Rice, Phillips or Thiago!

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Give me a McGinn, Kovacic or even a Loftus-Cheek any day of the week before a Rice, Phillips or Thiago!

Neither of these are ''holding midfielders", though. Maybe Phillips, but look at how Southgate uses him for England.

And it all depends on the formation being played. In a 433, the single pivot will typically just sit in front of the back four and distribute. Fabinho, Rodri, Luiz, etc. However, those three players have much more to their game and have shown in the past that they are move than just holding midfielders.

 

[simplyared]

Neither of these are ''holding midfielders", though. Maybe Phillips, but look at how Southgate uses him for England.

And it all depends on the formation being played. In a 433, the single pivot will typically just sit in front of the back four and distribute. Fabinho, Rodri, Luiz, etc. However, those three players have much more to their game and have shown in the past that they are move than just holding midfielders.

I know they are not holding. More central role still able to defend, but have the important drive to get on the front foot as well. Probably nearest thing to BtoB in today's game. What I'm saying is that their contribution is well above what the holding mf offers. They can do the same thing and a lot more too. Rodri being an exception who has a holding mf role but at the same time joins the attack gets forward and therefore a key figure in the unstoppable city onslaught right now.