The 3-5-2 formation under Ole

[MadMike]

Do you like it or not? Is that something you can see us building upon and something that could work with some better options down the right side?

Personally, I see potential in it. It's a good fit for a few reasons:

1. I think all our forwards prefer a more central than wide role when playing
2. Playing 3 in midfield with wingbacks gives more freedom to Pogba/Lingard to join the attack
3. It makes us more robust when we need to defend more during a phase of the game
4. It's (probably) easier to find good wingbacks than wide forwards

I'd say we're probably a good RCB and a really good RWB away from having the right personnel for it.

I know our switch to this formation coincided with worse results. But we have to consider that the recent fixtures have been very tough (Arsenal away, Wolves away x2, Barca) and also some games were lost due to individual mistakes on our part and/or bad luck which can always happen.

What does the Caf think?

 

[Gator Nate]

Love it, and I think it is a very versatile setup. You make a good point about the switch and decline in results and I think that decline would be a lack of familiarity with what is required in that system rather than a bad idea. What I keep seeing is lack of execution - bad pass selection or timing, bad passes period, poor shot selection, bad shooting in general - than any failure with the setup. Thing is, nearly every player on the field will have to learn two or three roles depending on the situation, but that setup can morph into anything that is needed, and quickly at that.

Things are getting better, though. Note in the Barca game how quickly we had a 5-man back line at any given time. Once we regained control, the outside men moved up almost immediately and we could press and leave three in the back. I saw that repeatedly. Much more discipline than I was used to seeing. Or maybe I just caught it at the right time - watching from work is not conducive to really observing the game.

 

[thesheriffjw]

I prefer the 4231 or 433. It offers greater attacking options and i expect that to be the formation once everyone is fit

352 as put it should only be used against the elite. The top top teams are all about high pressing possession football and utd dont have the players to compete at that level yet

 

[Cloud7]

I’ve never been a fan of 3 at the back set ups. For me it’s not worth sacrificing an extra midfielder/attacker for an extra defender.

 

[FootyGirl88]

I prefer 433

 

[coolredwine]

We have been average under Ole whenever he has rolled out the 3/5 at the back formation. And every time he reverts back to 4 at the back, we are automatically better, most noticeably against PSG and Barcelona.

 

[Carl]

I think it's a good fit for our current forwards. My problems with it are we don't currently have the wing backs for it and we also tend to deploy it with 2 holding players in midfield. All of that tends to mean you're generally relying on the 2 forwards and the attacking midfield player to come up with all of the creativity.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

4-4-2 is the only formation for me.

A strike partnership and two flying wingers again. Oh, yes.

Unfortunately, we’ll have to wait for a hipster club like Dortmund or Napoli to use it first before other clubs deem it acceptable to use again.

Also it wouldn’t get the best from Pogba

 

[MadMike]

I’ve never been a fan of 3 at the back set ups. For me it’s not worth sacrificing an extra midfielder/attacker for an extra defender.

Surely that depends on how much freedom you give your wingbacks and midfielders though. A tactics, rather than formation, choice if you will. 3 at the back is still less defenders than 4 at the back, on paper. But obviously it’s not about the paper, but how things are actually unfolding on the pitch.

A 4-3-3 with a sitting DM and 2 CBs is not much different than 3 CBs with 2 box-to-box CMs. The difference is mostly higher up the pitch and whether you play 2 forwards with a #10 or one striker/false 9 with two wide forwards. And that comes down to what kind of forwards you have at your disposal mostly.

 

[el3mel]

We were far better with 4-3-3. Since we started switching formations to 3-5-2 and 4-4-2 performance has massively dropped. Definitely accompanied with bad form of some other players and injuries but there was no reason to tweak a working formation.

 

[TRUERED89]

4-3-3 or 4-4-2 diamond, I've never liked 3/5 at the back! Always see it as a bus parking formation! Even though it looked good against Barca!

 

[NotQuiteManc]

One thing though, it is pretty damning the likes of Rojo is not playing as that LCB when Ole decided to play 3 at the back. Instead Shaw was preferred, as well as Dalot.

Hope Ole will continue to do what he thinks it is best based on the current squad, and get rid of (expensive) deadwoods.

 

[MadMike]

We were far better with 4-3-3. Since we started switching formations to 3-5-2 and 4-4-2 performance has massively dropped. Definitely accompanied with bad form of some other players and injuries but there was no reason to tweak a working formation.

It was probably because of those injuries and bad form.

We've also had some good performances with 3-5-2. We switched to that against Arsenal after 20 mins and we played really well that game, just failed to take our chances. Also against PSG away. The difficulty of fixtures has been really high of late, compared to Ole's first 10 or so games in charge.

 

[Nialinho]

I'm not a fan it only worked for us early in the game against Wolves. I think 4-3-3 is definitely the way to go, especially after we make a few signings.

I wanna see us dominate teams again with a youthful, attacking team not constantly relying on counter attacking.

 

[Jazz]

I love it. Have always thought we're suited to it. The problem is we need the right personnel at key positions to make it work really really well.

If we can get the right players in, I would prefer we play this most of the time. 4-3-3 or other formations depending on the opposition imho.

 

[MadMike]

One thing though, it is pretty damning the likes of Rojo is not playing as that LCB when Ole decided to play 3 at the back. Instead Shaw was preferred, as well as Dalot..

Yep. Same applies to Bailly really. He could have played Bailly at RCB, with Lindelöf left and Smalling centre. But he clearly doesn't trust him either, as with Rojo.

Bailly had to be hauled off against Arsenal, only started one game since (vs Palace) and that was only cause Smalling was missing. Rojo has only played 13' against Wolves since Ole came in.

I think the writing is on the wall for both. Although that's a separate discussion

 

[PlayerOne]

Can't say I'm a fan of it. We seem to play poorly when we use it and I can't remember us winning a game besides PSG away.

 

[Ander herrera the warrior]

I’ve never been a fan of 3 at the back set ups. For me it’s not worth sacrificing an extra midfielder/attacker for an extra defender.

What if it's about sacrificing one cb to add another midfielder/attacker?

We could probably do something like Shaw De Ligt Wan Bissaka as our back 3 and buy 2 wing backs

 

[AgentP]

It is a setup that can work well for us. But we should be a flexible team who can adapt to situations. Planning the summer window for a 352 will make our team one-dimensional.

 

[JJ12]

I prefer the 4-4-2 diamond.

DDG
Dalot Alderweireld Lindelof Shaw

Fred
McTominay Pogba
Felix

Rashford Martial

(Personnel not so important because feck knows what will happen)

 

[MadMike]

It is a setup that can work well for us. But we should be a flexible team who can adapt to situations. Planning the summer window for a 352 will make our team one-dimensional.

The only real difference between 4-3-3 and 3-5-2 with regards to our summer recruitment strategy, is whether we sell Sanchez and go buy a RW/RF or not.

We need a RB/RWB anyway, as well a quality CB and a replacement for Herrera if he goes.

 

[Sterling Archer]

I love it. Have always thought we're suited to it. The problem is we need the right personnel at key positions to make it work really really well.

If we can get the right players in, I would prefer we play this most of the time. 4-3-3 or other formations depending on the opposition imho.

So we're not actually suited for it.

You take a manager like Pep and he has a formation and philosophy. He then goes out and buys the squad to make that happen. Ole is maybe going to have that chance after the summer. But for now, during the crucial run in I'm not a fan of tinkering all too much. I thought it was just because of injuries but it persists and results continue to be poor, performances also in comparison to earlier .

 

[MadMike]

So we're not actually suited for it.

You take a manager like Pep and he has a formation and philosophy. He then goes out and buys the squad to make that happen. Ole is maybe going to have that chance after the summer. But for now, during the crucial run in I'm not a fan of tinkering all too much. I thought it was just because of injuries but it persists and results continue to be poor, performances also in comparison to earlier .

Fixtures are a lot harder now then they were earlier. At the beginning of his reign when we went on that run we were playing Cardiff, Huddersfield, Bournemouth, Newcastle, Brighton etc. etc. Now it's Arsenal, PSG, Wolves (twice away), Barca.

It's easy to look good against dross opposition and say it's down to the formation rather than difference in quality.

 

[AgentP]

The only real difference between 4-3-3 and 3-5-2 with regards to our summer recruitment strategy, is whether we sell Sanchez and go buy a RW/RF or not.

We need a RB/RWB anyway, as well a quality CB and a replacement for Herrera if he goes.

Yes but getting that RW (ideally Sancho) could cost us close to 100m. If Ole decides to play 352, we might opt out of buying him.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

With a better squad it will work wonders

 

[Roboc7]

To play it well you need defenders who are good on the ball and good wingbacks, we have neither and that’s why it’s failed under LVG, Mourinho and now Ole.

 

[MadMike]

Yes but getting that RW (ideally Sancho) could cost us close to 100m. If Ole decides to play 352, we might opt out of buying him.

Agreed. It could also be out of his hands.

If Sanchez can't be moved this summer (no takers, doesn't want to leave) and/or Ed is simply reluctant to sink a lot of money on a forward player while we have Lukaku, Martial, Rashford, Sanchez on the books and Greenwood coming through.... then I think his choice of formation might be somewhat dictated by the players available to him as well.

 

[MadMike]

To play it well you need defenders who are good on the ball and good wingbacks, we have neither and that’s why it’s failed under LVG, Mourinho and now Ole.

Any formation needs the right, high-calibre players really. None of the formations we have tried since Fergie left has really "worked" because a lot of our purchases have been subpar and the managers were implementing really negative tactics.

It's too early to call it about Ole. It's a small set of features against really hard opposition. Many of his choices were dictated by necessity as well.

 

[AJ10]

Fixtures are a lot harder now then they were earlier. At the beginning of his reign when we went on that run we were playing Cardiff, Huddersfield, Bournemouth, Newcastle, Brighton etc. etc. Now it's Arsenal, PSG, Wolves (twice away), Barca.

It's easy to look good against dross opposition and say it's down to the formation rather than difference in quality.

I am sure you have a point but if you're going to try to make a point by giving examples then at least don't hide away Psg/Arsenal/Spurs/Chelsea/pool.

 

[11101]

I've never liked us playing 3 at the back. Almost all players now come up through their academies playing 4 at the back, they play 4 at the back in the reserves and then when they get into the first team they play 4 at the back. It's little wonder they look out of place when they're asked to play as a back 3. Out of our entire back line i'd not be confident any of them could make the switch. Lindelof maybe, at a push. Smalling isn't good enough on the ball to play the central role, and even Shaw is making mistakes at LCB. Dalot is still getting to grips with being a normal right back in a top league, and we have nobody at all on the left.

We either need to bring in players who are used to it, or spend significant time on the training field with it in pre season. Whatever it is, no more of this tinkering with different formations from game to game please.

 

[Roboc7]

Any formation needs the right, high-calibre players really. None of the formations we have tried since Fergie left has really "worked" because a lot of our purchases have been subpar and the managers were implementing really negative tactics.

It's too early to call it about Ole. It's a small set of features against really hard opposition. Many of his choices were dictated by necessity as well.

The squad is flawed but we haven’t won a game where Ole has started with a back 3. None of our defenders are particularly good on the ball and our fullbacks aren’t that productive going forward either.

Playing 5 instead of them 4 just compounds a problem we already have and is why it doesn’t work and hasn’t worked previously. Hopefully it’s just circumstance and not a sign of things to come as it will only make managers job harder trying to play this way.

 

[Random Task]

Do you like it or not? Is that something you can see us building upon and something that could work with some better options down the right side?

Any formation becomes viable with a higher standard of player occupying the positions. Ole has tried all manner of different setups with varying degrees of success - 4231, 352/532, 433 and even a 442 - and he is still yet to settle on one that best suits the squad.

There will be a whole host of changes in personnel over the summer (in and out) so tactical discussions seem rather moot at this point. I do think he favours the 433 above all else but he lacks the players to pull it off.

 

[Aloysius's Back 3]

Ole will play 352 with a midfield diamond. Count my word for it - it's the only way the 352 can high press and yet fall deep inside to take the pressure before counter attacking.

Whilst the right fullbacks are important - they are important no matter what formation we play. The real key to a 352 is a player like Eric Dier, Declan Rice or the already piff perfect Frenkie De Jong.

Anyone who saw ajax vs Juventus knows how de Jong changed the match when he started playing as a 'false CB' — a position that gave freedom to all the midfielders in front of him and the fullbacks to get forward too.

Whilst Dier or Rice is not as technical as De Jong they would allow us to do the same thing in a diamond shape. Shaw & Wan bissaka don't play as fullbacks or wingbacks - they play as defensive wingers who drop down to defend and allows Rice to come off of the centre backs to make a tackle and start off the counter attack on the other side.

When defending, Rice drops deep in to defence to spread the defensive line wider with the defensive winger ( wan bissaka or shaw) to drop deep on the side of the attack to create a balanced back 4 with the opposite side defensive winger ready for the counter attack.

A upmost maximum of a back 5 allows us to have less midfielders and midfielders to play with more freedom.

On the attacking side - the false 9 plays as the tip of the diamond when receiving the ball but taking the ball up to the forward line to spread the front 2 wider and create a front 3.

Simplified : Ole will create a 352 with a diamond shape consisting of a False CB and a False 9 at the tip - with width coming from a defensive winger who drops deep on the side of opposition attack whilst the other prepares for the counter attack on the other side.

I also believe that Sancho can play as a false 9 - but like Lingard makes runs to wide spaces that opens up by the front 2 players - Basically acting as a creator on both the left & right flanks as a forward that chooses which flank to drop in to with the ball - but starts centrally to take defenders away with him.

 

[bushyboy]

Really depends on which players a team has.
4-3-3 is used by teams with brilliant players and attacking fullbacks.
In a 3-5-2 you need to have 3 excellent defenders especially the CB and fit, attacking wing backs.
With the players we have, a
4(Dalot-Smalling-Lindelof-Shaw)
-1(McT)
-4(Rashford-Fred-Pogba-Martial)
-1(Lukaku) is the closest system that would suit us even though we don't have proper wingers.

 

[MadMike]

The squad is flawed but we haven’t won a game where Ole has started with a back 3. None of our defenders are particularly good on the ball and our fullbacks aren’t that productive going forward either.

Playing 5 instead of them 4 just compounds a problem we already have and is why it doesn’t work and hasn’t worked previously. Hopefully it’s just circumstance and not a sign of things to come as it will only make managers job harder trying to play this way.

We won against PSG away and we were playing 3 at the back after 20 mins. 3-5-2 is not 5 at the back, needless to say.

 

[Amar__]

Have we actually played any decent game with this formatoon?

 

[MadMike]

I am sure you have a point but if you're going to try to make a point by giving examples then at least don't hide away Psg/Arsenal/Spurs/Chelsea/pool.

- PSG away was 3-5-2 after Bailly went off.
- Spurs away was not a good performance, we nicked a goal and got bailed out by DDG after getting dominated for most of the game.
- Pool at home was a 0-0 with only 35% possession, but our selection and formation got affected by then injuries in the first 30 mins.

Arsenal and (moreso) Chelsea away in the cup were good games from us though, that's true. But Arguably we played better in the league game against Arsenal when we lost, just bad luck with finishing and individual mistakes.

 

[joedirt87]

no, i don't like it. I do not like any system involving three at the back.

 

[MadMike]

Have we actually played any decent game with this formatoon?

Arsenal away and PSG away.

 

[Aloysius's Back 3]

Have we actually played any decent game with this formatoon?

This is because in my opinion we have players like Smalling playing as a sweeper in a back 3 than any sort of Libero/ attacking CB that takes the ball to CDM and drops from CDM to CB to only have a back 3 when needed. That's why Rice is looking Tasty for Ole - no pun intended.