It has to be... Real phased this out for a reason. Modric and Kroos are still class, but there is a reason why they are now part-time players for Real. Having one or even two of them as experienced guys you can rely on if need be is fine, but they should (like Real does) only be there to guide and support a younger first choice midfield.
The 3 Year Rebuilding Process
- Thread starter Oranges038
- Start date
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
It will be 26 years again before we hit the title
cycles
cycles
This I agree with, a club like Utd has to try and remain competitive in the process and also show that progress is being made. Which fans can see clearly by what is happening on the pitch.
I also think that maybe ETH is not the man to trust with the process, then you find someone who is. But before you do that you have to at least know where you want to be. Utd just doesn't have that structure in place, so yeah ETH might get the sack. But I don't think a manager has to earn the right to be given time.
Unless you put in a proper plan and set about building towards something and bring someone in to specifically coach the players, build and shape the team and put the ideas into practice on the pitch. Then it doesn't make a jot of difference who you bring in. Your just setting them up to fail.
I feel for the opening poster. I agree that there is a need for an over arching strategy to attempt to put and end to overhauling of the squad every new manager. However the mood of the fans won’t really allow for discussion. Patience is in short supply at the minute.
To me we have to try and build a young and hungry squad with a sustained age profile of of the mid twenties. The manager mentioned this too and I believe he is trying to achieve this. The core of the players suggested can definitely play a part in the build for the future but I would say we are mid construction rather than at the beginning.
The experienced players and stop gap purchases have had varying degrees of success but most have been compromised signings so for me are difficult to criticise without context. Not all signings hit the ground running and I still have faith most of the core purchases will come good. Injuries to key players have an affect of course.
We seem to be looking to our academy more these last 2 years after buying more established stars without success and I think this will benefit us in the long run. If we can establish a style of play from the top down, integration will be easier.
To me we have to try and build a young and hungry squad with a sustained age profile of of the mid twenties. The manager mentioned this too and I believe he is trying to achieve this. The core of the players suggested can definitely play a part in the build for the future but I would say we are mid construction rather than at the beginning.
The experienced players and stop gap purchases have had varying degrees of success but most have been compromised signings so for me are difficult to criticise without context. Not all signings hit the ground running and I still have faith most of the core purchases will come good. Injuries to key players have an affect of course.
We seem to be looking to our academy more these last 2 years after buying more established stars without success and I think this will benefit us in the long run. If we can establish a style of play from the top down, integration will be easier.
Rubbish, it has took howe far quicker to get Newcastle playing better than us with lesser players, same with klopp, same with ange
This thread confuses two things. The need to overhaul our entire football structure is clear, it's a joke from Arnold down, recruitment is abysmal and most of the money spent in last decade has been wasted. We would have been better off keeping youth products. But then there is what a decent coach can be expected to achieve in terms of performances on pitch. Emry, Howe and Ange have shown you dont need years and your own players.
Aye, we don't know what's going on in the background. Who the targets are or their age profile. What we do know is that the football on the pitch right now is poor and the squad is a mess, injuries have played a part but overall the squad is just full of too many average and overpaid players for this level.
I mean, it's possible that ETH has been assured that this plan is in place, he's part of it and that his job is safe during the process while the squad is being rebuilt and restructured. But fans just don't have the patience.
All they hear is 3 years, another rebuild? Why is it always a rebuild? Cry, whinge, moan I want it now... the manager needs to be sacked after a run of bad games, get someone else in.. the usual guff. Without understanding that, when you are trying to turn around 10 years of bad signings, bad managers and have a woefully unbalanced squad. It takes more than a year to sort it out and more than 6 first team signings (less than half the squad he has available are his players) but regardless of the money spent that isn't enough to see any consistent results on the pitch in 12 to 18 months.
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Rebuilding with the likes of Antony and Mount will take much longer than 3 years.
£150m there that needs replaced?
£150m there that needs replaced?
Spurs have basically changed 7 of their starters for young, quick, physical players this summer.
Udogie
Van de Ven
Porro (joined in Jan)
Bissouma (barely played last season)
Maddison
Sarr (barely played last season)
Vicario
Johnson as backup
Add to Romero, Son and Kulusevski.
Only Son is older than 27.
Good recruitment of hungry younger players is more important than any manager.
It can be done in a couple of windows if we had people that know what they are doing instead of the current lot.
We will never know the full ins and outs of any transfer process but what’s clear is that we have been reacting rather than instigating in recent years. When teams are running well it’s almost clear when players need replacing and this should normally come incrementally but with the process at United it’s not been like this for years.
There are definitely still players still here that the manger and fans alike would have got rid of. Some have come back and done well like Harry, and other not so much. This affected finances and thus the rest of the rebuilding. It’s clear though we are struggling because this is not our best team and we are just surviving at the minute. It’s ugly and painful at times but there’s still fight.
I think the next few games will have a bearing on how the board judge the mood. I think most can see that the manager had improved us in some aspects last season and there’s external factors which have affected form and confidence. However it’s increasingly a results driven business and I think perception can dictate a lot. Both Klopp and Arteta struggled in a more stable environment at times and better financial situations and it paid of. We will have to wait and see.
Newcastle do not play good football. It will be at least 3 more years before they even come close to mounting a serious title challenge. At most they'll win a league cup or an FA cup in that time. And a title challenge won't be coming with Howe in charge either.
Ange has spent over 200m and brought in over half a new starting team. Really he has just got the new manager bounce ongoing, with a squad that's over working to prove they don't need Kane's goals. Yes, they are playing well now, but they will hit a blip at some point and we'll see how they recover.
Klopp first 3 seasons were 8th, 4th and 4th, then he pushed them hard for a title charge. Yeah he had the CL finals etc and they played some decent football, but in the league they were incredibly inconsistent until his 4th season in charge. Remember, he had Steven Caulker up front at one point. He has also just spent 3 years revamping this squad. But again, everybody will point to him, but they aren't willing to acknowledge that even he has done this 3 year rebuild cycle. He revamped his forwards over the last 2 years and this year fixed the midfield. But, at the same time he was working off the solid base he had already built up.
Pep has done the same at City over the last few years as well. Because they have a better structure and solid base where they can replace one or two players at a time without it severely impacting the rest of the team performances. But again it's a process that's been over a few years replacing players and phasing them out gradually.
Utd need to get to that point where the solid base is there to push for trophies and have a squad thay can be maintained with incremental adjustments every year or two, fixing one or two positions at a time, that point is at least 3 years away in my opnion.
That would be Eddie Howe who finished behind and lost a cup final to Utd last season.
Newcastle also went out a got Dan Ashworth to do the squad building and those signings have seemingly worked out better for the most part.
Then there is form and goldfish memories. It was all De Zerbi at the start of the season until Brighton got smashed by Villa. Now suddenly Emery gets bandied about. Remarkably given that De Zerbi had ‘completed football’ we are level on points with Brighton.
Ange has had an incredible start at Tottenham. You can’t argue he hasn’t and they seem to play great football. However, it is only a start and they haven’t had to deal with many injuries or set backs on the pitch other than a League Cup defeat. They also don’t have any midweek football so they can put everything into the league games.
We should obviously be playing better than we are and the attacking execution is a massive problem. If we could just create and take an early chance then the game gets a lot easier (as long as you don’t quickly concede which we have done).The stats back it up that we are creating turnovers when we press high but our attacking players have some of the worst decision making and execution in the league.
Reading between the lines of what ETH has said in press conferences the attackers seem to get a lot of freedom to do what they want. It seems like we have set patterns to go from goalie to the attacking third and then freedom to try and create chances once we get the ball there. I think we need to take some of that away and play with more set patterns in attack. Simple things like working overlaps, pull backs like we keep conceding and square passes across the box for tap ins. ETH seems to have no issue with Antony, Bruno and Rashford taking wild shots from anywhere and he absolutely should take issue with that because it’s so low xG.
It's not an easy task to create a PL winning team. The starting place is an important factor. Turning Newcastle to title challengers is a different challenge than turning a sleeping giant around. It's easier to come and win a few cups at United because you're bound to have some experience at the top level, it's not the first time for the club. At United you have more baggage. Having weight to throw around in a cup or two is great but in a rebuilding process, that is all dead weight. Big ego's not contributing ruins the team moral. On one hand you can't do it without them, but you sure as shit can't do it with them. As a manager what do you do?
Do you put your foot down, play youngsters and pay the price? For that to happen you need full backing and safety for your job, and a whole process of shifting these players out and hunting for new ones should start immediately.
Do you protect your assets by slowly phasing these players out? Do you have replacements in the squad? Do you have a core within the team you can rely on to back you?
I knew we were going to struggle this year. I didn't know about the injury crisis with Shaw, Varane and AWB out or lack of form from all our key players like Bruno, Rashford, Martinez, Casemiro. But I did know we never bought a CDM. We bought Casemiro and thought that was that. We never replaced Fred who had the legs to support all our midfield combinations. We never upgraded Lindelof, Dalot, Maguire etc even though we know they don't fit our requirements as backup players, and have no chance of establishing themselves as first team players. Yet, because we don't do anything with what we learn about the squad, we keep seeing what we've been seeing. If things were going bad and we had new players with potential, at least we would be waiting for something potentially to change, but to expect new things from that lot is dumb. So I knew we was fecked when we kept signing few players for big money, when we really needed a bigger overhaul.
We seem to have taken the approach of slowly adding to the team, so to not need to do a full rebuild process. If you have a core team, structure, a manager you trust and the patience of the fans this might work. However, last ten years we've had some good moments but it's all been built on a house of cards. We effectively keep building on the same tower of shit, because really it cost a lot of money to do it the other way, and we've already spent a lot of money. The patience of the fans is hinging on a managers ability to be pragmatic and create moments, to distract us while we wait for real change. Fans turn on the manager even if he manages to do that, because it's not what we want.
Let's have an objective look at our current rebuild.
Signings:
Antony
Casemiro
Martinez
Malacia
Mount
Hojlund
Onana
By position, it seems the bare minimum. How do we supply and build around that, for consistency and the future.
Loan:
Reguilon
Amrabat
Sabitzer
Weghorst
Free transfers:
Johnny Evans
Eriksen
We're filling gaps all-right but for too many positions at once, with a severe lack of quality.
The thing is, how are we going to sell Sancho, Van de Beek etc. and on top of that now sell Antony. If we after two seasons know that a player isn't going to work out, we should be able to sell him and use that funds to reinvest in the squad. Not persist with him for years and years. We're so far behind, some of the action needed to be taken years ago and this small ball approach in the market with a bunch of loan signings just stinks of no willingness to commit and invest anymore. We can't get rid of Maguire, so instead of buying a new CB, we buy Johnny Evans.
We also need to stop signing Kagawa all over again. Every year we spend a chunk of money on an attacking midfielder we really don't need, just because they are so easy to come about in the market. That's not rebuilding, it's adding to the house of cards. We could have bought Haaland, Odegaard, Caicedo amongst other talented youngsters if we had been willing to invest in young players in the market, yet we've been too busy "protecting" our assets to pay them any mind.
Do you put your foot down, play youngsters and pay the price? For that to happen you need full backing and safety for your job, and a whole process of shifting these players out and hunting for new ones should start immediately.
Do you protect your assets by slowly phasing these players out? Do you have replacements in the squad? Do you have a core within the team you can rely on to back you?
I knew we were going to struggle this year. I didn't know about the injury crisis with Shaw, Varane and AWB out or lack of form from all our key players like Bruno, Rashford, Martinez, Casemiro. But I did know we never bought a CDM. We bought Casemiro and thought that was that. We never replaced Fred who had the legs to support all our midfield combinations. We never upgraded Lindelof, Dalot, Maguire etc even though we know they don't fit our requirements as backup players, and have no chance of establishing themselves as first team players. Yet, because we don't do anything with what we learn about the squad, we keep seeing what we've been seeing. If things were going bad and we had new players with potential, at least we would be waiting for something potentially to change, but to expect new things from that lot is dumb. So I knew we was fecked when we kept signing few players for big money, when we really needed a bigger overhaul.
We seem to have taken the approach of slowly adding to the team, so to not need to do a full rebuild process. If you have a core team, structure, a manager you trust and the patience of the fans this might work. However, last ten years we've had some good moments but it's all been built on a house of cards. We effectively keep building on the same tower of shit, because really it cost a lot of money to do it the other way, and we've already spent a lot of money. The patience of the fans is hinging on a managers ability to be pragmatic and create moments, to distract us while we wait for real change. Fans turn on the manager even if he manages to do that, because it's not what we want.
Let's have an objective look at our current rebuild.
Signings:
Antony
Casemiro
Martinez
Malacia
Mount
Hojlund
Onana
By position, it seems the bare minimum. How do we supply and build around that, for consistency and the future.
Loan:
Reguilon
Amrabat
Sabitzer
Weghorst
Free transfers:
Johnny Evans
Eriksen
We're filling gaps all-right but for too many positions at once, with a severe lack of quality.
The thing is, how are we going to sell Sancho, Van de Beek etc. and on top of that now sell Antony. If we after two seasons know that a player isn't going to work out, we should be able to sell him and use that funds to reinvest in the squad. Not persist with him for years and years. We're so far behind, some of the action needed to be taken years ago and this small ball approach in the market with a bunch of loan signings just stinks of no willingness to commit and invest anymore. We can't get rid of Maguire, so instead of buying a new CB, we buy Johnny Evans.
We also need to stop signing Kagawa all over again. Every year we spend a chunk of money on an attacking midfielder we really don't need, just because they are so easy to come about in the market. That's not rebuilding, it's adding to the house of cards. We could have bought Haaland, Odegaard, Caicedo amongst other talented youngsters if we had been willing to invest in young players in the market, yet we've been too busy "protecting" our assets to pay them any mind.
Just for reference, for anyone who disagress with the process.
This is Klopp's mini rebuild over the last 3 years. Previous 3 years before this he only really added Minamino, Jota, Thiago & Tsimikas. He also brought in Elliot who was signed from Fulham but was in the u23s for a bit.
This is main squad players who are regularly in the first team XI only.
Year 1 (21/22)
Out:
Shaqiri
Wijnaldum
In:
Diaz
Konate
Year 2 (22/23)
Out:
Mane
Minamino
Williams
In:
Nunez
Gakpo
Year 3 (23/24)
Out:
Keita
Milner
Henderson
Fabinho
Firminho
Oxlade Chamberlain
In:
Szoboszlai
Gravenberch
MacAllister
Endo
In 3 years, he's only really had to bring in 8 first team regulars to totally refresh his team.
This is Klopp's mini rebuild over the last 3 years. Previous 3 years before this he only really added Minamino, Jota, Thiago & Tsimikas. He also brought in Elliot who was signed from Fulham but was in the u23s for a bit.
This is main squad players who are regularly in the first team XI only.
Year 1 (21/22)
Out:
Shaqiri
Wijnaldum
In:
Diaz
Konate
Year 2 (22/23)
Out:
Mane
Minamino
Williams
In:
Nunez
Gakpo
Year 3 (23/24)
Out:
Keita
Milner
Henderson
Fabinho
Firminho
Oxlade Chamberlain
In:
Szoboszlai
Gravenberch
MacAllister
Endo
In 3 years, he's only really had to bring in 8 first team regulars to totally refresh his team.
How about this as the start of your rebuild
---------------------------- Ferguson
----------------------------- Hojlund
--- Rashford -------- Fernandes --------- Kubo
--- Garnacho ---------- Mount ------------ Diallo
--------------------- Kroos ----- Casemiro
--------------------- Rabiot -------- Luis
-- Shaw ---------------------------------------------- AWB
- Malacia ---------------------------------------- Sugawara
------------------- Martinez ----- Varane
-------------------- Torres --------- Silva
----------------------------- Onana
----------------------------- De Gea
Squad - Bayindir, Evans, Dalot, McTominay, Eriksen, Zieliński, Pellistri, Morata
Out on loan - Fernandez, Mainoo and Gore
TRANSFERS
IN
De Gea (free)
Kroos (free) / Thiago (free)
Zieliński (free)
Rabiot (free)
Morata (free or ~10m loan fee)
Florentino Luis (40m)
António Silva (65m)
Pau Torres (55m)
Sugawara (20m)
Kubo (50m)
Ferguson (100m)
TOTAL 330m
OUT
Heaton (free)
Reguilon (loan end)
Amrabat (loan end)
Lindelof (20m)
Maguire (25m)
Van de Beek (20m)
Hannibal (10m)
Sancho (40m)
Antony (25m)
Martial (free)
TOTAL 140m
NET SPEND 190m
De Gea to replace Onana during AFCON and when Onana comes back, De Gea would replace Heaton as the experienced goalkeeper in the squad. Heaton is 4 years older than De Gea and hasn't played first team football in 4 years. It's time for him to move on. Possibly a future goalkeeping coach. Besides, imagine Onana got a serious end-of-season injury right now and our options are either 37 year old Heaton who hasn't played in 4 years or Bayindir with only 4 seasons at Fenerbache under his belt.
As for the midfield, if Kroos and Rabiot want to come on free transfers we should take them on short term contracts. Then we can let Van de Beek and Amrabat go, develop Mainoo further and work on identifying and bringing in long term players such as Declan Rice and Arthur Vermeeren.
With the transfers listed above we're only missing a DM like Declan Rice as we build our way towards a starting XI with nearly all players close to their peak in a few years (age in 2026/2027 shown)
------------------------------ Ferguson (22)
- Rashford (29) ------- Mount (27) ------- Kubo (25)
---------------------- Rice (27) ----- Luis (27)
Malacia (27) ---------------------------------------- AWB (28)
----------------- Martinez (28) ---- Silva (23)
-------------------------------- Onana (30)
---------------------------- Ferguson
----------------------------- Hojlund
--- Rashford -------- Fernandes --------- Kubo
--- Garnacho ---------- Mount ------------ Diallo
--------------------- Kroos ----- Casemiro
--------------------- Rabiot -------- Luis
-- Shaw ---------------------------------------------- AWB
- Malacia ---------------------------------------- Sugawara
------------------- Martinez ----- Varane
-------------------- Torres --------- Silva
----------------------------- Onana
----------------------------- De Gea
Squad - Bayindir, Evans, Dalot, McTominay, Eriksen, Zieliński, Pellistri, Morata
Out on loan - Fernandez, Mainoo and Gore
TRANSFERS
IN
De Gea (free)
Kroos (free) / Thiago (free)
Zieliński (free)
Rabiot (free)
Morata (free or ~10m loan fee)
Florentino Luis (40m)
António Silva (65m)
Pau Torres (55m)
Sugawara (20m)
Kubo (50m)
Ferguson (100m)
TOTAL 330m
OUT
Heaton (free)
Reguilon (loan end)
Amrabat (loan end)
Lindelof (20m)
Maguire (25m)
Van de Beek (20m)
Hannibal (10m)
Sancho (40m)
Antony (25m)
Martial (free)
TOTAL 140m
NET SPEND 190m
De Gea to replace Onana during AFCON and when Onana comes back, De Gea would replace Heaton as the experienced goalkeeper in the squad. Heaton is 4 years older than De Gea and hasn't played first team football in 4 years. It's time for him to move on. Possibly a future goalkeeping coach. Besides, imagine Onana got a serious end-of-season injury right now and our options are either 37 year old Heaton who hasn't played in 4 years or Bayindir with only 4 seasons at Fenerbache under his belt.
As for the midfield, if Kroos and Rabiot want to come on free transfers we should take them on short term contracts. Then we can let Van de Beek and Amrabat go, develop Mainoo further and work on identifying and bringing in long term players such as Declan Rice and Arthur Vermeeren.
With the transfers listed above we're only missing a DM like Declan Rice as we build our way towards a starting XI with nearly all players close to their peak in a few years (age in 2026/2027 shown)
------------------------------ Ferguson (22)
- Rashford (29) ------- Mount (27) ------- Kubo (25)
---------------------- Rice (27) ----- Luis (27)
Malacia (27) ---------------------------------------- AWB (28)
----------------- Martinez (28) ---- Silva (23)
-------------------------------- Onana (30)
What is this nonsense? Looking 3 years down the line. For a 3 year plan.
De Gea isn't coming back. The club shouldn't go anywhere near Thiago, Kroos, Morata or Rabiot if it's building towards a squad that will be competing 3 years from now. Eriksen and Evans wi be retired by then too.
Do you agree with this list of players leaving the next year?
Which players would you sign to replace them and how much would they cost?
Please provide some actual names
OUT
Heaton (free)
Reguilon (loan end)
Amrabat (loan end)
Lindelof (20m)
Maguire (25m)
Van de Beek (20m)
Hannibal (10m)
Sancho (40m)
Antony (25m)
Martial (free)
TOTAL 140m
Also, we paid to take Amrabat and Weghorst on loans but should turn down Kroos, Rabiot, Thiago and Morata on free transfers?
Excuses excuses excuses. We’ve been rebuilding for 12 years now and are getting no better, wasting money and floundering. At this rate we’ll be rebuilding for 12 more with the same result.
Any good coach, given 18 months and 400M+ backing should have better results and plan in place than ETH. Look at Spurs, Newcastle etc.
Our team is shocking, we show no structure either defensively or offensive, we have no recruitment structure in place, we are injury plagued by overplaying players last year.
Sorry, ETH has had enough time to turn it round and for me has shown no sign of being up to the job. Bring in a real coach who can actually start to make the changes we need.
Any good coach, given 18 months and 400M+ backing should have better results and plan in place than ETH. Look at Spurs, Newcastle etc.
Our team is shocking, we show no structure either defensively or offensive, we have no recruitment structure in place, we are injury plagued by overplaying players last year.
Sorry, ETH has had enough time to turn it round and for me has shown no sign of being up to the job. Bring in a real coach who can actually start to make the changes we need.
This is the point, but this is not about ETH. This is the process all top clubs follow, SAF has said this exact thing and he had it mastered down to a fine art. You think he was making it up?
The team and squad is shocking, there needs to be a plan to build a whole new squad. It takes more than a year to build a squad. It takes 3, especially when you are starting from the point Utd are at now. This is a terrible squad, it lacks balance, athleticism, technical ability, depth and quality all over the pitch.
10 years of disastrous managerial appointments, 10 years of shocking squad management. Just bringing in a "real coach" is pointless unless there is a proper structure in place to dismantle and rebuild this current squad into one that is capable of launching a realistic title challenge.
Look at my post above about how Klopp has spent the last 3 years rebuilding his Liverpool team. He built to a point where he didn't need to make many adjustments over a 3/4 year period. In the last 3 he's revamped his forward line and midfield. That's the point Utd need to get to, a point where you have a balanced consistent squad over a number of years that only needs minor tweaks. We're at least 2 years away from having that.
The only 2 teams in recent memory that successfully completed a rebuild from the top English teams are Liverpool and Arsenal.
If you consider Newcastle under Howe and Spurs under Ange a completed rebuild, then ten Hag's first season should also be in this category, since both those clubs are still years away from competing for the CL/PL.
If you consider Newcastle under Howe and Spurs under Ange a completed rebuild, then ten Hag's first season should also be in this category, since both those clubs are still years away from competing for the CL/PL.
Yes, simply because they are the exact type of stop gap signing that the club has been making for 10 years now and it's a large part of the reason it's in this mess.
There's absolutely no reason to sign any of those players.
I am not disagreeing. However, 400M would have gone a long way to get the job done if the right person had been in charge of spending it. There was arguably less dimantling to be done before ETH got hold of the chequebook - he was not working to a plan like Pep and Klopp did, he was/is clearly making it up as he goes along and failing at it.
We now have Anthony, Mount, Erikson, Casemiro to sort out, on top of the issues he inherited like Sancho, Martial, McT - all the time failing to sort out totally visible issues we had before he joined (likenot having a midfield to speak of). Using your logic, Klopp would have taken 2 years signing bad players for Liverpool, then ripped up the script, trying to sell them, then starting again... If they had played the utter mindless dross we are during that period, he would have been sacked.
I don't believe that ETH is up to the job and should never be in charge of signings. His actions have set us back another 3+ years by the time they clear out his transfer mess. Yes, the structure is so broken that he should never have been given the power, and we need a top down reboot with a DOF etc, but this isn't going to happen = no 3 year rebuild, but coaching and making the players you have play a good brand of attacking football. He has totally failed at this.
I remember the early SAF days - he had different work to do, but showed progress from the outset. He had to eliminate the drinking culture, build a core of players, effectively build the club behind the scenes - he did this while maintaining out attacking football ethos, and despite some setbacks, you could see the path he was going down. ETH has arguably a much better base than SAF ever did, but has shown nothing in terms of coaching, team building, planning etc.
Manchester United do not have a terrible squad. It is not as good as it should be given the level of investment and the status of the club, but it is not 'terrible.'
I think that's why you're finding people disagree with your 'three year plan.'
For a top club, where the expectation is to win torphies and maintain a cosistent level over period of 3 to 4 years, it is a terrible squad.
How many of these Utd players would you take at Real Madrid?
Manchester United are 4th in total points in the PL over the last three seasons.
City - 268
Liverpool - 228
Arsenal - 214
United - 207
I don't think the squad is good enough to win the league, but how can it be terrible if it gets the 4th best results in the English Premier League, currently the best league in the world?
City - 268
Liverpool - 228
Arsenal - 214
United - 207
I don't think the squad is good enough to win the league, but how can it be terrible if it gets the 4th best results in the English Premier League, currently the best league in the world?
You forget we're looking 3 years down the line here, this current squad is not fit for purpose. So, cumulative points for the last 3 seasons don't mean shit. Especially when your looking at overhauling that 63 point difference over the next 3 years.
Seriously, if it's not a terrible squad. How many of them would you take at Madrid that you're still going to want there in 3 years?
Who has made them hungry?
Some of this lot looked useless under Conte.
As ever, it is a mix. A good group of players with some elite talents, especially in the attack as well as a manager with a good tactical sense, that sets the right culture within the club and can get the very best out of his squad.
Most of them weren't even playing under Conte.
I just don't really agree with assessing a squad by only looking at "3 years from now." I think it just allows you to dismiss players who are contributing now.
Since you've mentioned Real Madrid a few times: we sold Varane to United and then signed Alaba and Rudiger. Both of them are older than Varane. They will probably not be around in three years. Neither will Nacho, who is 33. Carvajal and Vazquez, the two right-backs, are 30+ and also won't be around. At left-back, Mendy is 28 and unlikely to get a renewal offer, so he probably won't be around in three years either.
Does this make Real Madrid's defense "not fit for purpose"? Is it a "terrible" defensive squad? I don't think so. They are players who can perform now. They will be slowly replaced in one, two, three, four, five years. Some will take different roles (no longer starters). Some might be replaced by comparable free agents (as what happened with Varane).
Varane, Casemiro, Reguilón (who all played at Real Madrid), Eriksen, Mount, Rashford, Hojlund, Fernandes, Martinez. I would hesitate to take "lower tier" English players, mostly for nationality, same as you might hesitate to take Fran García, Nacho, Vazquez, etc.
I realize, most are new signings.
Bissouma wasn't even good enough, according to Conte. Son slumped last year. Porro wasn't showing much.
Spurs have got it right this year in terms of manager and recruitment. Even though Ange was like 4th or 5th choice.
Nope, you're look at what they're going to be contributing in 3 years and putting in a replacement plan.
Exactly what Real have done with their midfield over the last few years.
Ah, but if you had made this assessment about Real Madrid in 2017 you would have likely concluded that in three years, Modric, Kroos, and Benzema would be gone. In fact two of them are still at the club and one left very recently.
Next season:
Onana
AWB CB Martinez Shaw
CM CM/Mainoo
RW Bruno Rashford/Garnacho
Höjlund/(Toney)
Another cool 200m required and even more if we need a new striker.
Onana
AWB CB Martinez Shaw
CM CM/Mainoo
RW Bruno Rashford/Garnacho
Höjlund/(Toney)
Another cool 200m required and even more if we need a new striker.
I think you've got the profile of some of the players correct but Kroos / Rabiot should not be worth any consideration, let the scouts identify and find some younger talent. This club has become a cesspool for players on the wrong end of their prime close to decline phases. Also F.Luis from what I remember has been said to be very limited in possession of the ball. The team would be hard to play through but I don't think there would be enough passess to break the opposition lines with that midfield.
Midfielders who can distribute the ball and be positionally disciplined defensively have been lost the last few years only player off the top I can think of who resembles this is Martín Zubimendi, so a box to box is a good idea with one of the central defenders moving further forward to play into the deepest area of the midfield. I actually think Nunes would have been a better signing than Mount for this as he could have played with Casemiro and Bruno in a 4-3-3 with Bruno more further forward or a 3 at the back shape and Martinez playing closer to Case.
Erik seemingly had a lot of options in the summer how he was going to approach this and he seems to have come up with the wrong combinations.
And if you did it about Utd in 2005 you might have said Giggs and Scholes needed to be replaced over the next few years. They went and won another CL and played in 2 more finals over the next 7 of 8 more years.
It's an excerise that the club needs to do, it's not based on age, it's based on how useful those players are going to be to you in 3 years. This is a process that you sre constantly looking at, every player, every year. Only people with real insight into the players can do this in very fine detail.
It is so you know you need to start a plan to replace these players. So in 2017 maybe Real said, these lads have a good few years left
in them. In 2020 Real looked at it again and knew Modric, Kroos and Casemiro needed to be phased out over the next 3 to 4 years. And they have done that and bought the replacements.
It doesn’t take 3 years. Should take 9 months.
It's not a baby, it's a football team.
Why on earth would we sign Kroos and Thiago at this point in their career? Thiago hasn't played a single game this season! How does signing players that are no longer good enough for Liverpool and Real Madrid hep us close the gap on the top teams? We've literally just made this mistake with Casemiro!
The types of players we need to be signing are proven players that have the potential to get better so ideally aged between 22 to 25.
Not appointing a DoF when it was apparent the owners (who were successful commercial managers) but who knew nothing about running a PL club, is both the reason and the most serious mistake (there have been others) that as led to our present predicament. Nothing will really start to progress until this major function is operating effectively within the club and with authority to report directly to the board, or as it would seem, to Jim Ratcliffe, if his bid goes through.
All our previous managers since SAF, excluding Moyes and Ole (who for different reasons were always out of their depth anyway) were proven and capable but must have felt as though they were pushing a 'snowball up a mountain', similar to ETH is now.
We were wandering in the 'football wilderness' for nigh on 20 years after the Busby era finished and it's been just over 10 years since SAF departed, so by my reckoning we still have another 10 years of wandering, forget 3 year rebuilds... unless we move on the DoF front, very quickly, we will be having the same discussions with perhaps another two managers been and gone, in 5-8 years.
All our previous managers since SAF, excluding Moyes and Ole (who for different reasons were always out of their depth anyway) were proven and capable but must have felt as though they were pushing a 'snowball up a mountain', similar to ETH is now.
We were wandering in the 'football wilderness' for nigh on 20 years after the Busby era finished and it's been just over 10 years since SAF departed, so by my reckoning we still have another 10 years of wandering, forget 3 year rebuilds... unless we move on the DoF front, very quickly, we will be having the same discussions with perhaps another two managers been and gone, in 5-8 years.