The 4-Way Draft - QF: Pat vs Tuppet

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

VS

......................................... TEAM PAT ....................................................................................... TEAM TUPPET .........................................


TEAM PAT

Sadly the 2-3-2-3 Metodo from my last match has to be jettisoned, as it was just too vulnerable against an all-time great winger like Garrincha. With two stellar full backs ready to come into the team, we're going with a 4-3-3 this time around that should largely mirror the opposition setup. Zanetti comes in at right back to form a truly formidable right flank with Messi, and at left back Silvio Marzolini squares off against Garrincha. It's a demanding individual assignment, but the elegant, composed Marzolini is one of the better fits out there. The tireless and dynamic left winger Loustau will additionally be tasked with supporting him in the defensive phase.

In midfield, Monti continues in the holding role, with La Maquina legends Pedernera and Moreno in the creative midfield berths. We'll still be playing to their strengths and allowing them to impose their brand of possession football on the match, but the style is less pronounced and more varied than in our previous match. Messi returns to the right wing to test a great left back who has nonetheless shown a level of vulnerability against an all-time great dribbler. Batistuta takes over at centre forward, amping up our goal threat and adding a different, more direct string to our bow going forward.

TEAM TUPPET

Tactic:
We are playing in a lopsided 4-2-3-1 formation. We are playing with same tactic and formation as the last game, with a huge upgrade in defense. Nilton Santos takes place of Branco, which is fortunate as he is likely going to face Messi. Its not going to be easy but Nilton is one of the greatest left backs of all time and would do his best to quell Messi as much as possible. He has proven himself with some great performances like against Sweden's Hamrin in world cup final.

Messi on right means Batigol is probably going to play as center forward, which matches with better with physical style of my defensive duo. Both were very good in the air and would not be pushed around easily. Its by no means an easy task and once again in Brazilian fashion we are not hoping to shut the shop at the back, but we would be looking to win by scoring more and dominating the ball as much as possible.

• Garrincha’s more adventurous / less defensively reliable style of play is balanced on the other side by a much more hard working Rivellino. Rivellino has the same important role of 1970 team, without the ball he would be defending on the left side, while moving in the central midfield areas with the ball. Garrincha is just going to do his thing, most of our game is going to flow through him & Zico at the right side.
  
  
• The Nilton/Djalma double world cup winning duo is one of the finest and iconic fullback partnership and can be relied to perform well against the very best attackers.
  
  
• Gerson is the primary playmaker of the team from deep, partnered by probably the best brazilian midfield enforcer in Zito he would look to provide a defensive shield in front of Periera/Lucio partnership at central defense. Gerson would probably get underrated as he often does especially against B2B physical players, but he is rated as one of the finest playmaker/midfielder ever and did play against some great European midfielders and usually came out on top.
  
  
• Periera/Lucio is a complimentary stopper/ball playing defender partnership. Covered by the greatest Brazilian goalkeeper and two time world cup winner Gilmar.
  
  
• Zico is attacking midfielder while Pele is playing as striker, both would interchange from time to time, and share the goal scoring burden. Bred in the same Joga Bonito style of play I think they would thrive with each other.
  
  
• Finally, we are playing in the Brazilian style of technique and flair and would look to dominate the ball. In the same vein as well, I don’t expect us to keep Pat's formidable team at bay, and our hope is firmly on the shoulder of our front 5 to outscore the opposition. I do have a fantastic front 4 that reads as Football’s who’s who and a case could be made for them to the Top 4 Brazilian players ever. So yeah hope is that they would show up and get us over the line.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@Pat_Mustard @Tuppet All the best!

 

[Skizzo]

Oof. Was expecting this to be an easier decision, no offense to @Pat_Mustard, but after seeing those two teams lined up, my initial thoughts might have been wrong.

Two great teams, definitely more attack oriented, and some wonderful players on show. Looking forward to seeing this flesh out.

 

[idmanager]

No Sastre, No Party

 

[Šjor Bepo]

im no expert by any means but pats midfield looks odd....i thought Pedernera was a false nine while Moreno was an inside forward Zanetti Messi combo though

tuppets team is fantastic, not the biggest fan of CB pair but other then that the team looks insane.

 

[SirMattBugsby]

Nice change from @Pat_Mustard . Modified his WW to manage opposition threats and got Messi on the right to include Batistuta.

Will possession football work against this Brazil team though? Not sure either way.

 

[harms]

Good work by @Pat_Mustard, but the muppet votes for @Tuppet

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Oof. Was expecting this to be an easier decision, no offense to @Pat_Mustard, but after seeing those two teams lined up, my initial thoughts might have been wrong.

Two great teams, definitely more attack oriented, and some wonderful players on show. Looking forward to seeing this flesh out.

None taken mate. I was looking at Tuppet's likely lineup, pondering what I'd write by way of a 'why I'll win' section, before concludng it was utterly pointless and contenting myself with a token dig at Nilton Santos instead . He has an insane team.

Good work by @Pat_Mustard, but the muppet votes for @Tuppet

I can't blame you mate. There's no arguing with that fecking forward line unfortunately.

Nice change from @Pat_Mustard . Modified his WW to manage opposition threats and got Messi on the right to include Batistuta.

Will possession football work against this Brazil team though? Not sure either way.

Thanks mate. As far as the possession football goes, I think we can reasonably expect to have our spells of dominance in the game, as Zito is his only specialist ball-winner in midfield. But then again, Monti is the only DM I'm fielding, so Tuppet will see enough of the ball too, and he's only got fecking Rivelino, Zico, Garrincha and Pele to capitalise on that

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I won't be arguing too vigorously here but in terms of advantages for my team I'll say the following:

- Better goalkeeper
- Comparing our DMs, I'd rate Monti as the superior ball-winner.
- Personally I prefer my CB partnership, although there's not much in it and possibly I'm just not familiar enough with Luis Pereira.

Beyond that, objectively I don't have much to argue my case relative to Tuppet's attacking juggernaut. Both our attacks will cause huge problems for the respective defences, but my chances are almost entirely contingent on how people assess my La Maquina players in comparison to their better known, better-documented counterparts, and it's a tough ask to expect people to take the leap of faith with my lot versus GOATs with such a wealth of footage and accolades to back them up.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

im no expert by any means but pats midfield looks odd....i thought Pedernera was a false nine while Moreno was an inside forward Zanetti Messi combo though

tuppets team is fantastic, not the biggest fan of CB pair but other then that the team looks insane.

I'll come back to this later mate when I gather a few quotes

 

[Skizzo]

I'm torn here because I'm not sure how well suited to a midfield role Pedernera and Moreno are. Translating their positions from back in the day, and taking into account their skill set, and how they both liked to get involved in the midfield and build-up makes me think they'd do a good job there. Although playing up against a couple of monster midfielders on the other side may negate their attacking influence, so I may tip a slight edge to Tuppet.

On the other side, I think Pat's attack will have more joy against Tuppet's defense, than vice versa. Whether they'll I've enough opportunities to make the difference is a different discussion, and both sides will enjoy spells of possession and attack imo.

I'm leaning towards a slight edge to Tuppet currently, but may be persuaded when I have a better understanding of how Pedernera and Moreno stack up in midfield.

 

[harms]

I'm torn here because I'm not sure how well suited to a midfield role Pedernera and Moreno are. Translating their positions from back in the day, and taking into account their skill set, and how they both liked to get involved in the midfield and build-up makes me think they'd do a good job there. Although playing up against a couple of monster midfielders on the other side may negate their attacking influence, so I may tip a slight edge to Tuppet.

On the other side, I think Pat's attack will have more joy against Tuppet's defense, than vice versa. Whether they'll I've enough opportunities to make the difference is a different discussion, and both sides will enjoy spells of possession and attack imo.

I'm leaning towards a slight edge to Tuppet currently, but may be persuaded when I have a better understanding of how Pedernera and Moreno stack up in midfield.

Pretty much Pep's version of De Bruyne and Silva in central midfield, no?

 

[Skizzo]

Pretty much Pep's version of De Bruyne and Silva in central midfield, no?

Probably, but that doesn't mean I'd always back that combination against the best teams/players.

 

[Tuppet]

Best of luck @Pat_Mustard don't have much to add from the last game as we didn't change at all, which I find annoying but only so much you can do with one reinforcement. I would totally be in favor of either two reinforcements or the first two players available for the future drafts, to keep things interesting.

I won't be arguing too vigorously here but in terms of advantages for my team I'll say the following:

- Better goalkeeper
- Comparing our DMs, I'd rate Monti as the superior ball-winner.
- Personally I prefer my CB partnership, although there's not much in it and possibly I'm just not familiar enough with Luis Pereira.

Beyond that, objectively I don't have much to argue my case relative to Tuppet's attacking juggernaut. Both our attacks will cause huge problems for the respective defences, but my chances are almost entirely contingent on how people assess my La Maquina players in comparison to their better known, better-documented counterparts, and it's a tough ask to expect people to take the leap of faith with my lot versus GOATs with such a wealth of footage and accolades to back them up.

Agree on most counts. I am not sure who I would give the edge on Monti vs Zito. I mean Zito is double world cup winner while being a one man midfield and also won everything at club level but Monti was also talismanic for two world cup final teams. CBs yours are better I reckon. Although we are both missing the greatest CBs from our countries in Da guia and Passarella and after them it's just much of muchness.

 

[SirMattBugsby]

Thanks mate. As far as the possession football goes, I think we can reasonably expect to have our spells of dominance in the game, as Zito is his only specialist ball-winner in midfield. But then again, Monti is the only DM I'm fielding, so Tuppet will see enough of the ball too, and he's only got fecking Rivelino, Zico, Garrincha and Pele to capitalise on that

Yeah, that front four is scary but you have Messi and Batistuta as well. Plus you are more likely to get goals from midfield.

I think the contest is even and the vote comes down to who the voter prefers: Messi or Pele.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Pretty much Pep's version of De Bruyne and Silva in central midfield, no?

Aye, it's a similar configuration. It's very attacking in emphasis of course, but then we do have a dedicated holding player and a defensive LB, so there is some pragmatism built into the team. I'm too tired to formulate this into something coherent, but I'll just share some bits and pieces I've found about Moreno. There's an excellent poster on another forum who has posted some great stuff about them.


On Di Stefano and Moreno

Ok, we have to split this question in two halves, the Di Stefano and his career in South America and the one in Europe.

The man in South America particularly in Argentina was considered an excellent forward, but not spoken of as someone prodigious from an early age. In Argentina he was considered a superb athlete, fast, an eye for goal, but limited with few weapons in his arsenal. He struggled in the aerial game, had only one profile in attack: to go to his right. At that time he was not the total footballer yet.

In Colombia his game starts to evolve and in Europe it reaches its total evolution: he becomes the anchor of the team, the total footballer. Any weaknesses in his game became less apparent and concealed. His discipline and dedication to want to improve is regarded by many as his greatest strength to his success.

With Moreno the story is completely different. He was viewed as a precocious young talent, athletically blessed, without technical weaknesses. His arsenal was unlimited. Powerful in the air, two footed, could play in many positions, was a two-way player, a fearless competitor that had the natural gene of being a leader.

For the NT, which was the ultimate badge of honor to represent the country, Moreno was the greatest representative of his time in the view of those that lived it. At club level where ever he went he was admired. But he did not benefit because he never featured in a WC, from not playing abroad and from being a prewar player.

I think this is a profile from El Grafico that he has typed out:

Jose Manuel "el fanfa" Moreno

"The man of the people"

"Moreno had the permanent magnetic presence of a rotating star for the fans. Very few came so close to such a unanimous admiration of the general public, and the attraction of multitudes of people to witness his masterful goals, his combinations, his dribbling, his vigorous headers (each cross from Peucelle that Moreno headed was generally a goal, especially in the NT) and elasticity, his conduction of attacks, his job as a hard worker for the ball in the back-line to build up progress going forward, his unsurpassed resistance, and his Apollo-like athletic figure that was admired by the people. He was the leader for his clubs and the NT. He had it all: speed, skill, mischief, and a panoramic view of the entire field which was a repertoire that made him as complete as anyone. He was a winner that gave his all and demanded all from his teammates. No one was more valiant than him – capable of playing injured with blood dripping or his tooth’s knocked out. His total personality brought the stands to their feet with the magnetism that’s reserved for the true idols – that was Moreno, an irreplaceable figure, which left a trail of unforgettable memories.”


According to Pedernera “he was a player that covered the entire field exhausting his opponents”.

He also stated that he was the best player he ever saw. "He had it all".


In 1980, he was ranked as the best Argentine footballer in the history by Sports' journalists in Argentina.

An excerpt about Moreno from Ian Hawkey' recent biography on Di Stefano:

There was the afternoon he was struck, during an away game in front of a pugnacious crowd at Tigres, by a large stone smuggled into the ground from the nearby railway line and then hurled with ‘If the medics come and give me treatment on the pitch, they’ll take me off on a stretcher. I won’t give them the satisfaction. Imagine: they’d be singing at every match from now on, “We got to Moreno”.’ Two-footed, he could shoot with explosive force but preferred, where possible to stroke or glide the ball past the opposing goalkeeper. He was a formidably powerful header of the ball. For Carrizo, the River goalkeeper for Moreno’s second spell at the club, he has to be bracketed with the top three or four footballers in Argentina’s history. ‘He is with the greats, and that’s the greats,’ says Carrizo. That is to say, he should be regarded next to Diego Maradona, Lionel Messi and Di Stéfano.

There's a quote attributed to him that I can't find now that said something to the effect that everybody should try to win the ball back when the team doesn't have possession.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

im no expert by any means but pats midfield looks odd....i thought Pedernera was a false nine while Moreno was an inside forward Zanetti Messi combo though

tuppets team is fantastic, not the biggest fan of CB pair but other then that the team looks insane.

See the post above mate for my rationale on considering Moreno an attacking midfielder rather than a pure forward - he seems to have played from box to box, been physically powerful, and combative. On Pedernera, he generally is described as a false 9 but firstly, Labruna was undoubtedly the poacher in that attacking line, and secondly, most if not all players that I consider as good choices in the false 9 role can play in attacking midfield too. As regards Pedernera's playing style specifically:

Teammate Labruna on his playmaking credentials:

Adolfo was the strategist, even more distinctly than Alfredo (Di Stéfano) ever was.

From Ian Hawkey's Di Stefano biography:

Pedernera’s influence on the way River played in the 1940s, meanwhile, was second to nobody’s. ‘He regulated the pace of a game,’ Carrizo remembers, ‘he was a strategist. You look back at the goals scored by La Máquina and so many came from mathematically calculated passes that ended up at Labruna. He struck the ball more precisely than anyone, and could pass it over long distances with such accuracy.’ Pedernera had started his career as a winger, with a magic wand of a left foot. The coach Peucelle had the idea that his broad vision, his sixth sense and his eye for a pass could be better used in a position where he would receive more of the ball, particularly once Loustau had made his case for commandeering River’s left flank. So he encouraged Pedernera to take the central role in attack...but with a licence to drop much deeper than was conventional. Peucelle, ever alive to ways to disrupt the straight-line thinking of opponents, trusted Pedernera to give a fresh interpretation to the role...In the era of La Máquina, River cherished possession, and they seemed to be innovating. They played with wingers who could interchange positions with inside-forwards, had a number nine who would initiate moves from where the anchor midfielder would normally be sizing up a pass. They were lauded for their mesmeric circulation of the ball, and championed in the pages of El Gráfico and Crítica for guiding Argentinian football in a sophisticated direction,

Varela's opinion of Pedernera:

One of the world’s best markers, the Uruguay captain Obdulio Varela would time and again find himself up against Pedernera, in Uruguay–Argentina matches or meetings between Varela’s club, Peñarol, and River, and he ranked him as the best in the world. Just ahead of the 1950 World Cup final, Varela declared that the prospect of facing a glittering Brazil forward line at the Maracanã stadium seemed a far less intimidating prospect than policing River Plate and Argentina’s drifting playmaker had been in the decade before. ‘Why would I be nervous about Brazil?’ Varela asked. ‘Remember, I faced Pedernera. I assure you nobody matches his standards.’

 

[Tuppet]

Yeah, that front four is scary but you have Messi and Batistuta as well. Plus you are more likely to get goals from midfield.

I think the contest is even and the vote comes down to who the voter prefers: Messi or Pele.

I don't know about that, Its not just Pele vs Messi, Garrincha and Zico are third and fourth best players on the park as well. While Pat's midfield does seem to have more goals in it, the reason for that is they are basically forwards playing in midfield roles so obviously they would have more goals. I mean I get that they were hard working players and everything but they were not central midfielders and I would back my midfield to provide better support both to my attack and defense. Gerson is to me the best central midfielder on the park, and was the brain of one of the finest international side of all time. I am not disputing whether or not they can play this role, mostly because I don't that much about them but from quick google searches it does seem that both Moreno and Pedernera were essentially second strikers/CFs who played in 3-2-5 with Ramos and Rodolfi behind them. They are both greats of the game and would create problems for me but it would be interesting to see how they would work in midfield in a 4-3-3.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

cheers @Pat_Mustard

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Yeah, that front four is scary but you have Messi and Batistuta as well. Plus you are more likely to get goals from midfield.

I think the contest is even and the vote comes down to who the voter prefers: Messi or Pele.

Good points, and the Messi vs Pele preference will play its part. Looking at our attacking players somewhat objectively, and also in a reductionist way:

Centre Forward: Pele vs Batistuta
Winger: Garrincha vs Loustau
'Cutting Infield' Wide Player: Rivelino vs Messi

then it comes down firstly as to whether or not you buy Pedernera and Moreno in those attacking midfield roles, and then as to how you assess their quality relative to Zico and Gerson. IMO it's not outlandish to give me the edge there.

From the IFFHS South American Player of the Century Elections:

South America - Player of the Century
1."Pelé" (Brazil) 220 (Edson Arantes do Nascimento)
2.Diego Armando Maradona (Argentina) 193
3.Alfredo di Stéfano (Argentina) 161
4.Garrincha (Brazil) 142 (Manoel dos Santos Garrincha)
5.José Manuel Moreno (Argentina) 82
6.Juan Alberto Schiaffino(Uruguay) 52
7."Zico" (Brazil) 51 (Arthur Antunes Coimbra)
8.Arsenio Pastor Erico (Paraguay) 42
Elías Ricardo Figueroa (Chile) 42
10.Thomas Soãres "Zizinho"(Brazil) 40
11.Luis Alberto Cubilla (Uruguay) 25
12.Adolfo Pedernera (Argentina) 24
13.Arthur Friedenreich (Brazil) 21
"Tostão" (Brazil) 21 (Eduardo Gonçalves de Andrade)
Obdulio Jacinto Varela (Uruguay) 21
16.Enrique Omar Sivori (Argentina) 19
17.Teófilo Cubillas (Peru) 17
Valdir Pereira Didi (Brazil) 17
Willington Ortiz (Colombia) 17
20.José Leandro Andrade (Uruguay) 16
Héctor Scarone (Uruguay) 16
Alberto Spencer (Ecuador) 16

and given that I seem to have a slight edge at CB, I think you can make a case that I could win this. It does involve giving some of my key players the benefit of the doubt though, whereas with Tuppet's team the feckload of World Cup medals and abundance of footage makes it an easier sell.

EDIT: "sell" isn't meant to sound derogatory - there's no disputing the brilliance of those attacking players.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

This is a fascinating match up. I do think Pedernera and Moreno would shine in these roles because that side would, imo, ultimately try to dominate possession and play higher up the pitch like la maquina. I think Pat misses Passarella though. I also think the team would be better defensively against Zico with Mascherano instead of Monti. Moreno and Pedernera are the x factor though. I think because of the Zico-Monti matchup Tuppet wins this more often than not but could definitely see Moreno being MotM on the other hand.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

read all the links pat but at the end decided for tuppet....even if assume both Pedernera and Moreno would be great for their roles its a tight game in the middle as tuppet has a fantastic trio and a great team as a whole. Its almost impossible to sell pre-footage players in anything bar their natural habitat, its not you can capture imagination of a voter with a short vid or a gif showcasing certain elements of the game of the game that are key for the role.

 

[Ecstatic]

Good to see a new version of Argentina

It's really a game for the offensive players because Pedernera, Zico & co.

 

[Ecstatic]

im no expert by any means but pats midfield looks odd....i thought Pedernera was a false nine while Moreno was an inside forward Zanetti Messi combo though

tuppets team is fantastic, not the biggest fan of CB pair but other then that the team looks insane.

Pedernera is really a total football player: playmaker, false 9... Like Di Stefano

River Plate - La Maquina 41-47

Messi replaces Munoz
Batistuta replaces Labruna

 

[Ecstatic]

I would have opted for a slightly more defensive Argentinian side given the opposition in order to have more possession

------------------------- Pedernera
- Loustau / Kempes / Sivori ---------------------Messi
--------------- Sastre / Kempes ------ Moreno
------------------------------Monti

Or maybe a 3-5-2

 

[Ecstatic]

Passarella, Maradona, Redondo are unavailable unfortunately

 

[Ecstatic]

Sorry Pat great job but I go for Zico-Pelé, which is the deciding factor even if his CB pairing isn't so impressive

I would have voted for Argentina with Batistuta replaced by a more dynamic/defensive player.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

it does seem that both Moreno and Pedernera were essentially second strikers/CFs and it would be interesting how they would work in midfield in a 4-3-3.

I honestly think their positions must have been fairly akin to that of modern AMs. The one constant in reports of that La Maquina team is their love of possession football, and Pedernera and Moreno were the orchestrators. I don't see how it would have been possible for them to do that if they were basically in the attacking line most of the time. The inside forwards in the old 2-3-5 formations had been dropping further back for a long time, and Jonathan Wilson claims La Maquina took that movement to extremes. Hawkey also referred to Pedernera picking the ball up in the DM position in one of those quotes.

This is a fascinating match up. I do think Pedernera and Moreno would shine in these roles because that side would, imo, ultimately try to dominate possession and play higher up the pitch like la maquina. I think Pat misses Passarella though. I also think the team would be better defensively against Zico with Mascherano instead of Monti. Moreno and Pedernera are the x factor though. I think because of the Zico-Monti matchup Tuppet wins this more often than not but could definitely see Moreno being MotM on the other hand.

Yep, Passarella would have been huge for me. Why do you think Mascherano would have been a better fit than Monti vs Zico? They seem relatively similar to me with their low centre of gravity and dogged style, and Monti was either famous or infamous depending on which version of events you believe for nullifying the threat of Sindelar.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I would have opted for a slightly more defensive Argentinian side given the opposition in order to have more possession

------------------------- Pedernera
- Loustau / Kempes / Sivori ---------------------Messi
--------------- Sastre / Kempes ------ Moreno
------------------------------Monti

Or maybe a 3-5-2

I like the look of that midfield three with Monti/Sastre/Moreno and I should have considered that. It would have been more consistent with the possession style of play and effectively added an extra midfielder.

Sorry Pat great job but I go for Zico-Pelé, which is the deciding factor even if his CB pairing isn't so impressive

I would have voted for Argentina with Batistuta replaced by a more dynamic/defensive player.

No problem mate, if I was a neutral I'd probably have voted for Tuppet myself .

 

[Pat_Mustard]

read all the links pat but at the end decided for tuppet....even if assume both Pedernera and Moreno would be great for their roles its a tight game in the middle as tuppet has a fantastic trio and a great team as a whole. Its almost impossible to sell pre-footage players in anything bar their natural habitat, its not you can capture imagination of a voter with a short vid or a gif showcasing certain elements of the game of the game that are key for the role.

Aye, it's great that Moreno/Pedernera/Sastre/Monti dragged me through a really tough first round match, but there's a point where it's hard to give the benefit of the doubt to the pre-footage guys versus the very highest level of opposition like Pele and Zico. In the absence of footage the only way I can really think of to elevate their standing even higher would be some mammoth research job of compiling contemporary match reports, but you'd need access to a tonne of old El Grafico editions, newspaper archives etc, and the ability to read Spanish, both of which rule me out.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Passarella, Maradona, Redondo are unavailable unfortunately

Aye, aside from Tuppet having such a great team another reason why I don't mind being eliminated is that I'm completely out of ideas for the reinforcements. I chose Argentina late on in the selection process and at that time no one had picked Inter as a club so I'd only have had the Trapattoni manager as a rival for Passarella. I also got mixed up before the first reinforcement round and somehow thought Di Stefano was available despite him being a first pick and Pnut still being in the competition . So my hypothetical dream line up would have ended up something like this:

With the younger Di Stefano, when he was faster and more of a finisher than a dominant orchestrator. He'd have no problem deferring to Moreno and Pedernera of course. I'd probably go for a young-ish Messi as well, when his dribbling was at it's peak. Out of possession Di Stefano could drop back into midfield to contribute to recovering possession, leaving Messi as the furthest player forward at times.

 

[Tuppet]

I've been reading a bit more on Maquina and it seem the Pedernera probably did play as a playmaking forward who drops deep ala Di Stefano / Hidegkuti. He would be home as an attacking midfielder. Moreno on the other hand definitely seem a second striker, his goal scoring record is very good (3rd all time CA goal scorer, scored 5 goals in a match) and from his positions from many different formations seem as either right or center forward. He was a creative presence for sure and dropped deeper but still seem like the guy who would play in front of an attacking midfielder, like a Pele or Puskas.

I feel the pain of conveying the brilliance of pre war era players with no footage, has happened to me many times. One of the reasons is that there are just too many players depicted as all time greatest level doing improbable things in Scarone, Andrade, Leonidas, Meazza, Erico, V. Mazzola, Pedernera, Moreno, Zizinho etc. Many of them are claimed to be better than Di Stefano/Pele/Maradona and its very hard to assess their correct level. FWIW Moreno was definitely one of the greats.

One of more interesting football article series is "what if they met" where Jonathan Wilson pits some of the best teams in history against each other. Its Maquina vs Grande Torino variant is a very good read - https://www.si.com/planet-futbol/2015/04/28/il-grande-torino-la-maquina-river-plate-argentina-italy

 

[idmanager]

With or without Inter , Argentina was always a tricky choice. Although, have to admit was disappointed when you got caught up as Passarella was picked only keeping you in mind.
If the picking draws had been unlucky for you, there is a good chance you'd have lost Messi/Maradona/Di Stefano even before your turn came. And without one of them, it would have been a weak attack.
Still, beating that Brazil side in R1 is the highlight of the draft so far IMO.

 

[Ecstatic]

Aye, aside from Tuppet having such a great team another reason why I don't mind being eliminated is that I'm completely out of ideas for the reinforcements. I chose Argentina late on in the selection process and at that time no one had picked Inter as a club so I'd only have had the Trapattoni manager as a rival for Passarella. I also got mixed up before the first reinforcement round and somehow thought Di Stefano was available despite him being a first pick and Pnut still being in the competition . So my hypothetical dream line up would have ended up something like this:

With the younger Di Stefano, when he was faster and more of a finisher than a dominant orchestrator. He'd have no problem deferring to Moreno and Pedernera of course. I'd probably go for a young-ish Messi as well, when his dribbling was at it's peak. Out of possession Di Stefano could drop back into midfield to contribute to recovering possession, leaving Messi as the furthest player forward at times.

Great team which would have been unplayable for Zito/Gerson/Lucio/Pereira

 

[Pat_Mustard]

With or without Inter , Argentina was always a tricky choice. Although, have to admit was disappointed when you got caught up as Passarella was picked only keeping you in mind.
If the picking draws had been unlucky for you, there is a good chance you'd have lost Messi/Maradona/Di Stefano even before your turn came. And without one of them, it would have been a weak attack.
Still, beating that Brazil side in R1 is the highlight of the draft so far IMO.

Cheers mate. It was one of the most enjoyable matches I've been involved in as I watched the votes pile up for an improbable comeback .

Aye, Argentina was somewhat risky, but most of the plum options were gone by the time I picked and I didn't really want to go down the spoiling route and directly compete with another manager for loads of the same players. I wasn't fussed about the attack TBH. It was that back four of Zanetti/Ruggeri/Passarella/Marzolini that I really wanted to nail for a top tier defence, with only Ruggeri being properly replacable. I was quite optimistic that I'd land one of Messi/Maradona/Di Stefano, but even without them you can still put together an interesting and fairly competitive Argentina attack:

Moreno
Pedernera
Loustau
Labruna
Sastre
Corbatta
Sivori
Orsi
Kempes
Batistuta
Bochini

Loads of permutations there, and tonnes of other interesting options like Sanfilippo, Artime, Brindisi etc.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I've been reading a bit more on Maquina and it seem the Pedernera probably did play as a playmaking forward who drops deep ala Di Stefano / Hidegkuti. He would be home as an attacking midfielder. Moreno on the other hand definitely seem a second striker, his goal scoring record is very good (3rd all time CA goal scorer, scored 5 goals in a match) and from his positions from many different formations seem as either right or center forward. He was a creative presence for sure and dropped deeper but still seem like the guy who would play in front of an attacking midfielder, like a Pele or Puskas.

I feel the pain of conveying the brilliance of pre war era players with no footage, has happened to me many times. One of the reasons is that there are just too many players depicted as all time greatest level doing improbable things in Scarone, Andrade, Leonidas, Meazza, Erico, V. Mazzola, Pedernera, Moreno, Zizinho etc. Many of them are claimed to be better than Di Stefano/Pele/Maradona and its very hard to assess their correct level. FWIW Moreno was definitely one of the greats.

One of more interesting football article series is "what if they met" where Jonathan Wilson pits some of the best teams in history against each other. Its Maquina vs Grande Torino variant is a very good read - https://www.si.com/planet-futbol/2015/04/28/il-grande-torino-la-maquina-river-plate-argentina-italy

Great article that mate, cheers! It's very hard to get a clear handle on Moreno. This is supposedly a shot of an actual River Plate tactics board from that era:

that has him and Pedernera breaking forward from AM positions with three attacking players positioned ahead of them and five defensive players behind, just like the AMs in a modern 4-3-3 variation.

And a graphic from a season when they were managed by Peucille rather than Cesarini:

from the accompanying article:

Charro Moreno, the right sided midfielder drifted into the center ahead of the central midfielders, orchestrating River’s attacks with his exquisite range of passing. When not in possession, he was equally efficient in covering the right flank to help his full-back.

Tagging in @Gio for his thoughts as he's selected Moreno before.

I will say that it's fascinating immersing yourself reading about this stuff for awhile, but eventually you hit a point where it's fecking head-melting

Spoiler

 

[Gio]

@Pat_Mustard I'd have loved to have had access to some of that stuff on Moreno when he first got a run out against @antohan a few years ago. Selling him as an inside-right of the absolute top calibre was always a tough sell without the compelling body of evidence to back it up. The other challenge is the lack of a World Cup success to showcase their ability on a global scale. Not their fault as surely Argentina would have been big favourites and wiped the floor with the Europeans in 1942 and 1946.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

@Pat_Mustard I'd have loved to have had access to some of that stuff on Moreno when he first got a run out against @antohan a few years ago. Selling him as an inside-right of the absolute top calibre was always a tough sell without the compelling body of evidence to back it up. The other challenge is the lack of a World Cup success to showcase their ability on a global scale. Not their fault as surely Argentina would have been big favourites and wiped the floor with the Europeans in 1942 and 1946.

Cheers Gio. Yep, not having a WC as a barometer of their level is unfortunate. They'd probably have made their mark in 1950 as well, but they didn't enter as they were in dispute with the Brazilian FA, and Peron supposedly didn't want to risk the damage to national prestige if they didn't win the thing. Moreno was probably in decline by then, but Pedernera was bossing the strong Columbian league, and Labruna and Loustau both had plenty left to offer. Nestor Rossi and Di Stefano were entering their prime too.

 

[Ecstatic]

I will say that it's fascinating immersing yourself reading about this stuff for awhile, but eventually you hit a point where it's fecking head-melting

Spoiler

The same when I try to build a team around players (with a lack of footage) I don't know

 

[Tuppet]

Great team which would have been unplayable for Zito/Gerson/Lucio/Pereira

No team in unplayable for Zito & Gerson.