The 4-Way Draft - QF: Skizzo vs P-Nut

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

vs

....................................... TEAM SKIZZO .................................................................................... TEAM P-NUT .......................................


TEAM SKIZZO

Formation - 4-3-3

As its now turning into El Clasico, I felt it only right to bring in a couple of Barcelona legends, who between them have amassed over 1300 appearances for Barcelona. We've moved from Cruyff's Dream Team and into a more modern Barcelona set-up, but not into a Tiki-Taka, to put that to rest right now.

Zubizaretta maintains his place between the stick, and keeps three of the four defenders from last match in front of him. Joan Segarra, Ronald Koeman and Lilian Thuram join up with Tarzan himself in the defensive line. Migueli takes up his role in central defense, and will help marshall the defense against the Galactico's of the opposition.

Johan Neeskens takes up a defensive midfielder role, but far from a limited one. In fact, his role here may be the most demanding of anyone in the team, but I can't think of many better to pull it off. He'll look to hound the opposition on defense, most notably Di Stefano, and cause a general nuisance of himself. In front of him, coming into the team, is Xavi. Barcelona's leading appearance maker, and one of the top tier midfielders, not just of our generation, but perhaps of all time. He'll look to get involved in all aspects of the play. Michael Laudrup will play a slightly more withdrawn role, but look to get into similar positions, making Makelele come out to him, while drifting around into different areas to pull the defensive shape about. Xavi and Laudrup will look to link up in a similar fashion to how Xavi and Iniesta would for Barcelona.

Up front, the three remain the same. Barcelona legend Lazslo Kubala on the right, but able to switch flanks with the terrorizing Bulgarian, Hristo Stoichkov, who starts on the left. Romario leads the line and will look to use his pace and runs to get in behind.

Tactical Information will be expanded upon during the match thread to help discussions continue.

TEAM P-NUT


Defence

Casillias
Camacho Hierro Santamaria Roberto Carlos

Attacking full backs flanking 2 completely solid centrebacks. Camacho is solid defensively but will be limited going forward in order to defend fully. He'll be supported by Seedorf in his defensive duties.

Camacho is probably the least known player of the lot, however was one of Real Madrids longest serving players spending his entire career there and making close to 600 appearances.

Coming in for this match is R. Carlos, a man who can dominate a flank on his own is now linking up with one of the greatest left wingers to have played the game.

Midfield

---- Makélélé
Seedorf ---- Modric
Di Stefano

The fulcrum of the side really. A midfield that has everything and allows one of the greatest ever players to make full use of his talents.

Makelele in the position he made his own. He'll be the sitter as usual and everyone knows what he'll bring to the game.

Seedorf will provide support both to the attack and defence. Endless stamina getting back and forwards makes this midfield a nightmare to play against. He has been switched to the right side of a diamond in this game in order to support Camacho in his defensive duties.

Di Stefano - the star of the side. Everything has been tailor made to allow him to have the biggest influence on the game possible. I've dropped Robben and brought in Modric to allow him to get closer to Puskas in support.
However a key point here is; if we get pinned back by Sjors Barce playing a possession game he will drop back into the centre of midfield and leave Gento and Puskas up top alone. That makes us extremely solid in midfield with the pace of Gento and the finishing of Puskas as our counter attack weapons.

Attack

Puskas - Gento

Puskas and Gento have amazing chemistry between them and will obviously be combining with Di Stefano constantly.

Gento will still take up his wide position but now won't have to worry too much about working back with Carlos dominating the flank and a 3 man midfield allowing more width from our 2 CMs.

Key relationships

Di Stefano - Gento - Puskas

Reals own version of the holy trinity are all capable of completely destroying teams. Natural chemistry between them means they will all be on the same wavelength.

Carlos - Gento

The left side of the field is a defenders nightmare. Carlos and Gento would provide problems for any combination of players and will be our main route to goal.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@Skizzo @P-Nut0712 All the best!

 

[P-Nut]

Good luck @Skizzo nice to see we've both change it up slightly

 

[Gio]

Who is fixing these draws? Brazil v Argentina and Barcelona v Real?

 

[P-Nut]

First thoughts on the game.

The tactical battle I feel has served me quite well here.

Moving to the diamond has put more bodies into midfield and allows me to get more people around Xavi to limit his influence.

Thuram could have a bit of a problem on his hands with Gento playing slightly more central. Does he ask Neeskens to come over and pick him up so he can track Carlos or does he follow him himself? Either solution causes another problem by freeing Di Stefano if Neeskens comes across or freeing Carlos if he tracks Gento himself.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Who is fixing these draws? Brazil v Argentina and Barcelona v Real?

Pre determined in OP. Every Group will need to get a winner who then will compete with other groups.

 

[Skizzo]

Good luck @Skizzo nice to see we've both change it up slightly

Keeps things a little fresh since we can't change the teams TOO much

Good luck to you too mate.

 

[Skizzo]

Moving to the diamond has put more bodies into midfield and allows me to get more people around Xavi to limit his influence.

Madrid have tried that before. With Modric no less.
Just having bodies around doesn't necessarily limit his influence. Especially as he has movement around him which will create those channels to pass into.

Thuram could have a bit of a problem on his hands with Gento playing slightly more central. Does he ask Neeskens to come over and pick him up so he can track Carlos or does he follow him himself? Either solution causes another problem by freeing Di Stefano if Neeskens comes across or freeing Carlos if he tracks Gento himself.

It doesn't really cause as much as a problem as you'd think. You have no left winger, and Camacho on the right side isn't going to be stretching play down that side, meaning my defense is better equipped to handle your slightly more reserved attack. Going more centrally means it's easier to my defense to keep tabs on who's where. Not to say it'll be easy by any means, they're top tier players, but by you focusing them all slightly more central, it makes it slightly easier for them.

 

[Skizzo]

The first thoughts I'd like to point out is Camacho is still at right back. A position he never played. He was a left back. It's not just that he's not comfortable there...he's never played there! It's not always just a matter of having the technical ability to be able to fill in...playing on the left back position requires different positioning and spacing than the right back position, and those are minor adjustments that you can't be trying to make when you're up against someone like Stoichkov who will exploit those weaknesses.

On the other side, relying on Roberto Carlos to provide more width is a good route, but he's limited somewhat in how often he can tear down that side with Kubala looking to get in behind the space he leaves.

Thirdly, neither Hierro nor Santamaria were particularly quick. Strong, technical players, absolutely, but they'd have a torrid time trying to track Romario's runs, being played through by Xavi and Laudrup, while trying to keep tabs on Stoichkov and Kubala also.

 

[P-Nut]

It doesn't really cause as much as a problem as you'd think. You have no left winger, and Camacho on the right side isn't going to be stretching play down that side, meaning my defense is better equipped to handle your slightly more reserved attack. Going more centrally means it's easier to my defense to keep tabs on who's where. Not to say it'll be easy by any means, they're top tier players, but by you focusing them all slightly more central, it makes it slightly easier for them.

I think you've misunderstood where Gento is playing in relation to the graphic if you think I'm playing with no left winger.

Gento will start in his exact same position as last game just now he has license to come inside and link more than he did last time round.

It won't be everytime that he comes inside, but it'll get your defence more to think about.

It works because Carlos is comfortable either supporting inside the full back or going outside on the occasions when Gento does want to drive inwards.

 

[P-Nut]

Madrid have tried that before. With Modric no less.
Just having bodies around doesn't necessarily limit his influence. Especially as he has movement around him which will create those channels to pass into.

Whilst obviously I agree that simply putting more bodies around him doesn't shut him down, packing a midfield with talents like Makélélé, Modric, Seedorf and Di Stefano will definitely have an impact on what he can do. Everyone of them is defensively astute and I think it's fair to say midfield vs midfield I've definitely got an edge.

 

[Skizzo]

I think you've misunderstood where Gento is playing in relation to the graphic if you think I'm playing with no left winger.

Gento will start in his exact same position as last game just now he has license to come inside and link more than he did last time round.

It won't be everytime that he comes inside, but it'll get your defence more to think about.

It works because Carlos is comfortable either supporting inside the full back or going outside on the occasions when Gento does want to drive inwards.

Ah ok, then yeah, I did misunderstand it somewhat then

Still, having no right winger, or attacking full back on that side, means the defense isn't going to be stretched or moved around too much to try and adjust.

 

[Skizzo]

Whilst obviously I agree that simply putting more bodies around him doesn't shut him down, packing a midfield with talents like Makélélé, Modric, Seedorf and Di Stefano will definitely have an impact on what he can do. Everyone of them is defensively astute and I think it's fair to say midfield vs midfield I've definitely got an edge.

An edge in what? We aren't looking to play a possession game. If you want to drop Di Stefano deeper to be more involved in midfield, then it blunts your attack somewhat as you're already short numbers ahead of him.

On the flip side if you prefer Makelele to step forward it creates a gap in front of your defensive line, because those players can't step up with the threat of Romario there running in behind.

 

[P-Nut]

The first thoughts I'd like to point out is Camacho is still at right back. A position he never played. He was a left back. It's not just that he's not comfortable there...he's never played there! It's not always just a matter of having the technical ability to be able to fill in...playing on the left back position requires different positioning and spacing than the right back position, and those are minor adjustments that you can't be trying to make when you're up against someone like Stoichkov who will exploit those weaknesses.

Whilst I'd agree going forward it's harder to switch sides, we have seen many defensive minded fullbacks play on either side equally as comfortably.

On the other side, relying on Roberto Carlos to provide more width is a good route, but he's limited somewhat in how often he can tear down that side with Kubala looking to get in behind the space he leaves.

I think it would more being how often Kubala feels he has to go back with Carlos than the other way around. As good as Thuram is any player needs help against Gento so the only way to avoid dragging your midfield shape apart is to force Kubala to go back with Carlos when he gets up and down.

Thirdly, neither Hierro nor Santamaria were particularly quick. Strong, technical players, absolutely, but they'd have a torrid time trying to track Romario's runs, being played through by Xavi and Laudrup, while trying to keep tabs on Stoichkov and Kubala also.

I don't see a problem with the defensive duo, both are excellent at reading the game and for me that's more important at the very top level than pace ever will be. Especially when talking about monitoring the passes coming from Xavi speed of mind beats speed of foot all day for me.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Camacho does not have the credentials for an all time RB. He never even played that position for an extended run let alone a full season let alone a 3 year peak. Stoichkov will have a phenomenal game here.

Even the best full backs- like Lahm whom I rate at least a full tier above Camacho as a footballer- suffered when he played on his weaker side. Camacho is just way out of his depth here.

 

[P-Nut]

An edge in what? We aren't looking to play a possession game. If you want to drop Di Stefano deeper to be more involved in midfield, then it blunts your attack somewhat as you're already short numbers ahead of him.

On the flip side if you prefer Makelele to step forward it creates a gap in front of your defensive line, because those players can't step up with the threat of Romario there running in behind.

And edge in who will dictate the game. Xavi is your key man and limiting his influence massively stunts the threats posed.

Di Stefano is a player capable of both adding to the midfield and joining the attack when needed.

 

[Enigma_87]

Camacho is definitely no right back, let alone someone who also has to provide width as there is no right winger in there.

Even Camacho at LCB and Santamaria as RB is better IMO.

 

[Skizzo]

Whilst I'd agree going forward it's harder to switch sides, we have seen many defensive minded fullbacks play on either side equally as comfortably.

You're putting this


Against someone who's never played RB. It's an accident waiting to happen.

I think it would more being how often Kubala feels he has to go back with Carlos than the other way around. As good as Thuram is any player needs help against Gento so the only way to avoid dragging your midfield shape apart is to force Kubala to go back with Carlos when he gets up and down.

Kubala is a hard working player, and won't have a problem tracking some of the runs, but we're already a man advantage in defense as you have nothing coming down the right side, so we can shuffle defenders as necessary if Carlos goes. He won't have the freedom to make those runs all game, so it's not like he's going to be constantly bombarding the left flank.

I don't see a problem with the defensive duo, both are excellent at reading the game and for me that's more important at the very top level than pace ever will be. Especially when talking about monitoring the passes coming from Xavi speed of mind beats speed of foot all day for me.

Maldini and Baresi are both quick in thought too, and struggled against Romario. It's not JUST pace. He's good on the dribble, and creative in his attacking as all the top Brazilians are. To limit him to just pace makes it sound like he's limited, which he isn't.

 

[Skizzo]

And edge in who will dictate the game. Xavi is your key man and limiting his influence massively stunts the threats posed.

These two combining would create magical stuff. Both have the same ability to get the call forward or in behind.

As for Di Stefano, yes, he's got the ability to contribute both ways, and I didn't mean to imply he couldn't. I just meant with him getting involved further from goal, no right winger, a LB at RB, you're slightly limiting your own team with little upside in return.

 

[SirMattBugsby]

@P-Nut0712 who will be providing width on the right? I don't see any threat from that side.

 

[idmanager]

Think P-nut missed a trick by not getting Ronaldo instead of Carlos.

If the idea was to play a Makelele based 3 man midfield with Stefano ahead too, Marcelo suddenly doesn't become a liability but a super strength.

Ronaldo there in a more central role rather than Gento with Puskas upfront and you have the Madrid setup of last year with Stefano in place of Isco and Puskas in place of Benzema.

Think Ramos should have been picked at RB ahead of Camacho. Modric and Seedorf need to switch too.

I don't think the current setup plays on the strengths of Madrid, but is makeshift to counter that Barcelona side.

 

[Physiocrat]

Think P-nut missed a trick by not getting Ronaldo instead of Carlos.

If the idea was to play a Makelele based 3 man midfield with Stefano ahead too, Marcelo suddenly doesn't become a liability but a super strength.

Ronaldo there in a more central role rather than Gento with Puskas upfront and you have the Madrid setup of last year with Stefano in place of Isco and Puskas in place of Benzema.

Think Ramos should have been picked at RB ahead of Camacho. Modric and Seedorf need to switch too.

I don't think the current setup plays on the strengths of Madrid, but is makeshift to counter that Barcelona side.

He couldn't pick Ronaldo as he was a first or second draft pick

 

[harms]

The first thoughts I'd like to point out is Camacho is still at right back. A position he never played. He was a left back. It's not just that he's not comfortable there...he's never played there!

Not really. He's had some memorable RB performances

 

[Physiocrat]

Looking at P-Nut's side he'd have been better off with Robben instead of Gento. With Robben on the right there's less onus on Camacho going forward plus Puskas can be positioned more leftwards which was where he was at his best.

With regards full-backs, if a player is two footed or a player who normally plays on the side of their weaker foot, such as Irwin or Maldini, I'd have no issue playing them at left or right back. In the case of Camacho he's been switched to his weaker side, not his stronger side plus right footed players are typically better with their left than left footed players on their right. So against Stoichkov, Camacho is a liability

 

[idmanager]

He couldn't pick Ronaldo as he was a first or second draft pick

Oh, my bad. Still feel another Striker upfront with Puskas rather than Gento would work much better.
Perhaps Di Stefano with a different player in the hole or a different striker in Hugo Sanchez or Raul

 

[Physiocrat]

Oh, my bad. Still feel another Striker upfront with rather than Gento would work much better.
Perhaps Di Stefano with a different player in the hole or a different striker in Hugo Sanchez or Raul

I definitely agree although a right winger would be helpful with Camacho at right back

 

[idmanager]

Looking at P-Nut's side he'd have been better off with Robben instead of Gento. With Robben on the right there's less onus on Camacho going forward plus Puskas can be positioned more leftwards which was where he was at his best.

Yup, agree with this, Robben played the more central inside forward role in the 2010 WC to good effect. Puskas on the left is always a bonus.

 

[Ecstatic]

Comments on Real Madrid


Right Wing >>> Kopa instead of Seedorf would have been very great for many reasons even if Robben/Amancio are great too. With Kopa his midfield would have unplayable. Also.. Crisitianoo... Well sooo many options

Right Back >>>> no options at all apparently. I can't say a bad word about Camacho: I've won a draft with him

Left- Wing >>> I love Gento

 

[Skizzo]

Not really. He's had some memorable RB performances

Ok so even better. In a 4 minute video we saw him getting beaten a few times, giving away a few cheap fouls, and then getting scored on directly at the end

 

[Ecstatic]

Also, I'm sorry: I have taken Pirri who should be part of this game

 

[Ecstatic]

Ok so even better. In a 4 minute video we saw him getting beaten a few times, giving away a few cheap fouls, and then getting scored on directly at the end

He was 20 years old!

 

[Ecstatic]

I see in this game Kubala as a "false winger": pretty mobile but really a second striker at his best IMO

 

[Skizzo]

He was 20 years old!

If someone posts something showing he played right back, I shouldn't evaluate what I see?

 

[harms]

Ok so even better. In a 4 minute video we saw him getting beaten a few times, giving away a few cheap fouls, and then getting scored on directly at the end

Yeah, you can see that I haven't said "good" or "decent", but "memorable" (a bit tongue in cheek). The point still stands though, he was well-capable of playing on the right and was used there from time to time. To play him as a sole wing presence is a tactical mistake though, even on the left he needed a winger up front.

 

[Ecstatic]

If someone posts something showing he played right back, I shouldn't evaluate what I see?

Who said that you shouldn't evaluate what you see?

 

[Skizzo]

Yeah, you can see that I haven't said "good" or "decent", but "memorable" (a bit tongue in cheek). The point still stands though, he was well-capable of playing on the right and was used there from time to time. To play him as a sole wing presence is a tactical mistake though, even on the left he needed a winger up front.

No I know, and I know you were more pointing it out to correct my erroneous claim of "never played there"

Who said that you shouldn't evaluate what you see?

Nobody it was more a rhetorical question

 

[Šjor Bepo]

@Skizzo Neeskens ever played as a DM? Maybe some footage of him there? I only know him as a b2b and AM tbh

 

[Ecstatic]

Nobody it was more a rhetorical question

Good :-)

 

[Ecstatic]

Was Panucci a great player?

 

[Tuppet]

Would have preferred Robben starting over Modric here.

Also, I'm sorry: I have taken Pirri who should be part of this game

P-Nut really should have gone for Breitner, I didn't understand why he took Seedorf over him.