The 4-Way Draft R1: Moby vs Pat

With players at peak, who will win the match?


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Edgar Allan Pillow

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TEAM MOBY



Building a team composed of players from the greatest footballing heaven in the history of the game couldn't have been short of a beautiful journey, which is what it was. Needless to say, the team is going to go out and play an exquisite brand of football, showcasing a level of flair, technique and skill that cannot be matched by another.

The Marauding Defense
If there's a position in this country that hasn't been blessed as much as the others it is the central defense, which is why I am glad to add the greatest defender produced by the nation, by far - The mythical Domingos. The Divine Master - who made defending look like an art with his elegance and masterful skill in winning the ball while being a true force on the ball. No doubt he will be leading this backline and will be at home being the first wave of attack from the back. Partnering him is the complete all round presence of Thiago Silva.

Quickly moving on to the flanks, one of the greatest left backs of all time takes the stage - The Encyclopedia Nilton Santos. An immense playmaker from the back and a true wall in defense. A bit more flair and madness on the other side as Dani Alves completes the backline, no one here is a stranger to his insane impact down the right for Pep's Barca and just how deadly a match winner he can be.

The Men in the Middle
Quickly going over the names - the midfield duo is comprised of the tactically astute and incredibly intelligent Leo Junior and the all round dynamo Paulo Roberto Falcao. Junior made a great name for him on the left flank but it was his midfield masterclass in Italy that prompted him to be classed as one of the best players in the league when it was littered with all time great talent. An incredible foil for the highly flamboyant Falcao and would allow him a great partner in possession. Not much needs to be said about the main man here. Falcao is absolutely at home as the heart of the team here, surrounded by incredible support and the responsibility to bring it all together with his unmatched ability to control the tempo and link up play.

Coming to the attacking midfield, is the pair of two absolute geniuses on the ball who couldn't be happier with each other's company. Socrates - no stranger to an attacking midfield duo takes up his role again providing incredible vision and penetration and would be absolutely honoured to support The Ethopian Prince, Didi! The hero of 1958 World Cup will be the final cog in the midfield four providing constant unstoppable ammunition for the attack and wide players in the team.

When Joga meets Bonito
You cannot think beyond these two names when you try to think of someone who provided endless amount of joy and highlights playing a brand of football that simply dazzled audiences day in day out, were absolutely unplayable and dominated everyone under the sun while revolutionising the game itself. Ronaldinho and Ronaldo. RONALDINHO AND RONALDO! The front duo of the team that is packed with absolutely elite skill, dribbling, pace, creativity and FLAIR! I'll leave the rest to your memories. More on them later.

- Building from the Back
As expected, a team based on moving the ball all around the park must start from the back and the entire back four is absolutely seasoned in that regard. In Domingos and Nilton we have two elite passers who can connect any two points on the pitch with a little swing of the boot. In Alves we have one of the most dangerous and skillful ball carriers to play in defense and rounding it up is Silva who is one of the better passers of the ball in his own right.

- The Square
Right, so the elephant in the room is likely to be the midfield setup. Falcao and Socrates shouldn't have any problems whatsoever in finding themselves back in a setup they are most remembered for. Junior will be assuming his league form here to partner Falcao as the DM and provide the required freedom and more importantly the passing and intelligence to keep the ball moving. In Socrates, we have probably one of the greatest attacking midfielders who was just as happy to be the deputy and form an elite partnership with a dominant playmaker. Didi will be the home of the final ball and one who would constantly provide key exchanges with Falcao and Socrates in his role of taking out opponents either with a thread of the needle pass or bringing both the midfielders and the wide players into crucial positions with the ball. Importantly, his ability to control midfield will be a great asset in allowing Falcao freedom to maraud forward and take those dangerous shots at goal. Lastly, with him dropping into midfield there's an easy bet that the control of the middle of the park will never be let out of our hands.

- The Flanks
Evidently, the fullbacks are absolutely key in this formation and there are few better in performing the required role here than what we have. On the left Nilton will provide his dominant presence from the back. With a presence like Ronaldinho on that side who can just as easily peel wide as he can drift inside, an astute and tactically elite presence like Nilton is absolutely ideal, who can make a call on when to overlap and provide him support. While on the other side there's a bigger need of an out and out freight train that can dominate the entire flank from end to end and that's literally Dani Alves to a tee. A physical specimen of endless stamina and work rate, he will be an absolute menace with that space in front of him. Both Falcao and Didi are well capable of attracting opponents as they will allowing Alves an incredible opportunity to go out there and stamp his mark on the game.

- The Fire
I won't be going on about just how deadly a duo of Ronaldinho and Ronaldo in full flight will be, as it will be. Tactically, Dinho will have a free role as he was best in at his prime at Barca, getting to use the entire outside-inside left channel and driving towards goal or making unstoppable plays to bring others in. Similarly, there's no restriction positionally for Ronaldo, who is no stranger in using the full length and width of the pitch to pull the defense and rip it apart. With his direct runs at frightening pace and unreal dribbling skills, he will be taking the ball all around the goal and running with it. The front two both have excellent natural chemistry and would be providing the required mobility as well as constant 1-2 punches especially with the service behind them.


TEAM PAT MUSTARD

The Formation:

A 2-3-2-3 Metodo seems the only fitting choice for this group of players and this theme. It’ll be a familiar system for my La Maquina nucleus of Moreno,Pedernera and Loustau, who will slot in seamlessly.



Antonio Sastre, a forgotten legend of the game, will reprise the same right half back role where he won a Copa America with Argentina and helped revolutionise Brazilian football with Sao Paulo. Luis Monti, meanwhile, was crucial to the genesis of the Metodo system:

Pozzo turned instead to Luisito Monti, who had played for Argentina in the 1930 World Cup. He joined Juventus in 1931, and became one of the oriundi, the South American players who, thanks to Italian heritage, qualified to play for their adopted country. Already thirty when he signed, Monti was overweight and, even after a month of solitary training, was not quick. He was, though, fit, and became known as ‘Doble ancho’ (‘Double-wide’) for his capacity to cover the ground. Pozzo, perhaps influenced by a formation that had already come into being at Juventus, used him as a centro mediano, a halfway house - not quite Charlie Roberts, but certainly not Herbie Roberts either. He would drop when the other team had possession and mark the opposing centre-forward, but would advance and become an attacking fulcrum when his side had the ball. Although he was not a third back - Glanville, in fact, says it was only in 1939 with an article Bernardini wrote after Pozzo’s side had drawn 2-2 against England in Milan that the full implications of the WM (the sistema, as Pozzo called it, as opposed to the traditional metodo) were fully appreciated in Italy - he played deeper than a traditional centre-half, and so the two inside-forwards retreated to support the wing-halves. The shape was thus a 2-3-2-3, a W-W. At the time it seemed, as the journalist Mario Zappa put it in La Gazzetta della Sport, ‘a model of play that is the synthesis of the best elements of all the most admired systems.’


Our style of play will be closer to Renato Cesarini’s great River Plate team of the 1940s than Pozzo’s more direct Italy, with a firm emphasis on probing, possession football with frequent interchanges of position between the attackers and freedom for the flair players to express themselves.

The Modern Dimension:

There are two aspects to consider here. Firstly, whether a 2-3-5 variant that came of age in the 1930s bears any relation to the modern game. Secondly, whether my modern players can work in the system, and moreover in Messi’s case whether the system can work for him.

On the first point:

1) The 2-3-2-3 was in itself a significant departure from the older pyramid 2-3-5 with its archaic five attackers strung across the frontline, and Cesarini’s version at River Plate was punctuated with further tactical evolutions. In the La Maquina system, the nominal attackers contributed hugely to the midfield, and Loustau on the left wing played a significant role defensively.

From the late twenties, inside-forwards in both Uruguay and Argentina had begun pulling deep from the front line, but under Cesarini, River took such movement to extremes…it was Moreno and Pedernera who dropped off into the space in front of the half-line. Loustau, meanwhile, patrolled the whole of the right flank, becoming known as a ‘ventilador-w ing’ - ‘fan-wing’ (‘puntero-ventilador’ is used, but the half-English term seems more common) - because he was a winger who gave air to the midfield by doing some of their running for them.


2) The renaissance of the Monti role: Jonathan Wilson has written convincingly on the positional similarities between Monti’s centro mediano role and that of the modern day DM, describing Sergio Busquets as the ‘modern day Monti’. He goes further and argues that we’ve actually seen modern formations that would be better denoted as a 2-3-2-3 than the more typical 4-3-3:

We understand that full-backs attack and that in a back four the two centre-backs will almost invariably play deeper than their full-backs, but the formation as we note it does not record that. Barcelona tend to play a 4-1-2-3 or a 4-2-1-3, according to our system of notation; heat maps of average position, though, show it as a 2-3-2-3. Barcelona, like Mexico, play a W-W.


Regarding my modern era players plugging into the system, the role of the GK and CBs requires little justification. I’ve opted for Simeone instead of Marzolini as with two wingers in my attacking line I want my half backs to support the midfield rather than be primary width providers. Simeone in any case has played as a left wing back for Argentina during WC 98, and his credentials as a box to box midfielder are well-known. Alongside the rugged Monti and ahead of the two CBs, he’ll add valuable pragmatism to counterbalance the free-flowing attack.

Messi, meanwhile, should be in familiar territory, playing at the apex of a technically brilliant team who frequently toyed with opponents while imposing a revolutionary brand of possession football on them:

They called us the “Knights of Anguish” because we didn’t look for the goal,’ said Muñoz. ‘We never thought we couldn’t score against our rivals. We went out on the pitch and played our way: take the ball, give it to me, a gambeta, this, that and the goal came by itself... Inside the box, of course, we wanted to score, but in the midfield we had fun. There was no rush. It was instinctive.


The Matchup:

There’s two factors that jump out as stylistic positives for my team:

1) Lack of pressing: It’s always a slight concern when packing a team with older players that they won’t have encountered intense modern pressing. This shouldn’t be much of an issue here, as for all their immense gifts Aldo’s team with the likes of Socrates and Ronaldinho won’t be imposing an intense press on us.

2) Centrally-orientated play: Not a criticism in and of itself, but Aldo’s system will rely on Dani Alves as the primary width provider, with others well capable of providing supplementary width. However, with our team being packed with players comfortable operating in central midfield areas, it’s probably preferable to facing a team with a more width-orientated formation.
 

Ecstatic

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Very interesting game from a tactical perspective.

Perfumo is considered by some as the greatest Argentinian defender. Sadly, no compilations or top youtube videos IIRC
 

harms

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I would've swapped Didi and Socrates personally.
 

harms

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And I don't think that Ronaldinho is a good Eder impersonator. I mean, you already have 4 creative midfielders, do you think that you lack somewhere in this regard?
 

oneniltothearsenal

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Yea as good as Ronaldinho is- I think the tactic could have used someone like Eder on left or Julinho on right instead esp considering Pats side.

For Pat team bold choice with the 235. Oddly it matches up well against Moby team of central playmakers.
 

Ecstatic

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Intrigued by Simeone.

I would've swapped Didi and Socrates personally.
The same. Socrates is more offensive and dynamic than Didi.

The latter is really a central midfielder while Socrates could create some opportunities from the right.
 

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I thought it was an obvious route to go considering he gets Moreno and Pedernera clean.

Simeone as Left half back stands out like a sore thumb.
Think Sastre is the bigger problem on the right side. He is considered super versatile but his nominal position on the field would be AM or SS I think.
 

Ecstatic

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Think Sastre is the bigger problem on the right side. He is considered super versatile but his nominal position on the field would be AM or SS I think.




--------------------- SASTRE
SASTRE--------------SASTRE----------SASTRE
-------------SASTRE----------SASTRE
SASTRE----------SASTRE ----SASTRE----------SASTRE
-----------------------SASTRE

What a team :drool:
 

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--------------------- SASTRE
SASTRE--------------SASTRE----------SASTRE
-------------SASTRE----------SASTRE
SASTRE----------SASTRE ----SASTRE----------SASTRE
-----------------------SASTRE

What a team :drool:
Just read Pat's OP in full, seem Sastre has played that role and quite successfully too, so thats less of a concern now for me. Wonder why Moby didn't play Cerezo in place of Junior here, he does need a more defensive midfielder to balance all the playmakers.
 

Ecstatic

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Just read Pat's OP in full, seem Sastre has played that role and quite successfully too, so thats less of a concern now for me. Wonder why Moby didn't play Cerezo in place of Junior here, he does need a more defensive midfielder to balance all the playmakers.
Surprising. Maybe,it would have been boring for him to duplicate Brazil 82

------Eder ---- Serginho
----- Zico ----- Socrates
----- Falcao ----- Cerezo
Back 4


Well, both managers have some things to say!
 

Gio

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Presuming Moby was competing with another Brazil manager, he's done really well to secure effectively Brazil's greatest ever back line (save Cafu). What football that team would produce.

Normally I'd reckon Pat's set-up would get stretched open by a pair of decent wingers, but I think he has Moby done here. He can defend narrow and has the right personnel to shut down those playmakers, whereas I don't see who stops Pedernera and Moreno in the other team.

Think this would be like the Bayern-Barca semi-final from a couple of seasons ago, a gung-ho game full of attacking flair. I'm going for a 5-4 win for Pat.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Presuming Moby was competing with another Brazil manager, he's done really well to secure effectively Brazil's greatest ever back line (save Cafu). What football that team would produce.

Normally I'd reckon Pat's set-up would get stretched open by a pair of decent wingers, but I think he has Moby done here. He can defend narrow and has the right personnel to shut down those playmakers, whereas I don't see who stops Pedernera and Moreno in the other team.

Think this would be like the Bayern-Barca semi-final from a couple of seasons ago, a gung-ho game full of attacking flair. I'm going for a 5-4 win for Pat.
Yep, Aldo's put together a cracking team in general and a superb defence in particular given that he was competing with Tuppet for the Brazilian spoils.

Agree that the style matchup is favourable for my team here. Against a wider setup I'd have struggled, although I could have brought in Marzolini for Simeone in that case, but Simeone and Monti will play in an invaluable role here in harassing and mauling anything that moves in my DM zone. Like you, I don't see an equivalent level of protection vs my attacking midfield. I picked Junior in midfield in the Americas Draft and his midfield stint in Italy seems to have been superb, but I'm pretty sure he was a shuttling, playmaking CM rather than a DM.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.




--------------------- SASTRE
SASTRE--------------SASTRE----------SASTRE
-------------SASTRE----------SASTRE
SASTRE----------SASTRE ----SASTRE----------SASTRE
-----------------------SASTRE

What a team :drool:
:lol::lol: He played as GK twice and kept two clean sheets. A better ratio than either Fillol or Julio Cesar I reckon. Best GK on the pitch, undoubtedly :wenger:
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Cheers Edgar. Just got back and should be online from now on. Good luck @Pat_Mustard !
You'll not need it at this stage but good luck to you too mate!

Simeone as Left half back stands out like a sore thumb
In terms of quality or fit? He's a great fit IMO. He's played as a narrow-ish left wing back on the highest stage here, with Claudio Lopez providing much of the attacking width on the left, although Simeone himself did burst forward to win the penalty for the 1-0:


Marzolini could have slotted in there, or I could have picked Sorin as an orthodox wing-back, but neither is as good a fit as Simeone. We've got Loustau providing the attacking width with Pedernera in support. We need someone to cover that wing defensively vs Dani Alves, and break up the play vs Didi and Falcao. He's probably the least sexy pick on the pitch but there's few better to carry out that role, and in this orgy of joga bonito and la nuestra he injects the required pragmatism and grit.
 

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Simeone as Left half back stands out like a sore thumb.
I know what you mean. In fairness though he had plenty of experience operating in Bielsa's mad 3-3-1-3 formations which placed similar demands on much of the team. Granted he may not have had the exact same gig but the specific task here is Didi who isn't going to outstrip him Overmars-style down the flank.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Think Sastre is the bigger problem on the right side. He is considered super versatile but his nominal position on the field would be AM or SS I think.
Just read Pat's OP in full, seem Sastre has played that role and quite successfully too, so thats less of a concern now for me. Wonder why Moby didn't play Cerezo in place of Junior here, he does need a more defensive midfielder to balance all the playmakers.
I meant to compose a properly formed post on Sastre but haven't got around to it so I'll just barf up some of the stuff I've found on him, although @Joga Bonito has most of it covered in the superb post below. I think you're the only one that's ever picked him in a draft before so he was long overdue a run out

Joga Bonito said:
Been doing more reading into Sastre and all of the sources seem to be in agreement that he was a brilliant all-round total footballer and a quality playmaker to boot.

Considered a legend for Independiente where he formed a deadly trio with de la Mata and Erico and was successful leading them to two league titles and a few runner-up finishes. Was also successful for the Argentinean national team where he won two Copa Americas. His tactical nous and all-round ability is in particular, hailed by many sources as he played a fantastic role on the right wing against an in-form Brazilian left wing of Tim and Patesko, nullifying them significantly in an important fixture in the Copa America 1941. After this Copa America tournament, he was approached by Sao Paulo. It seems he (along with Leonidas) was pivotal to turning the fortunes of Sao Paulo when he went there, and guided them to several trophies. Prior to Sastre's arrival they had only won one Campeonato Paulista and weren't the club they are today. Under Sastre's leadership, they'd won 3 Campeonato Paulistas and would go on to win 2 more in the late 40s after he retired. Tbf they did spend a signifcant sum of cash on Sastre, Leonidas and also bought some good Brazilian footballers during this period (Bauer, Noronha etc) and were nicknamed the "Steam Roller".

On Sastre, he was rated really highly by the Brazilians too which is quite something, given that he is an Argentine great.


Some quotes that I came across

Jonathan Wilson said:
Erico might have got the goals, but the real star of that side was Antonio Sastre, a played hailed by Cesar Luis Menotti as the greatest he ever saw and in 1980 voted one of the five greatest Argentinean players of all time, capable of playing in a range of positions.
Brazilian coach Oswaldo Brandão, who in 1947 won the Paulista title in Palmeiras commented - "Argentines often want to copy to us Brazilians, but they very often forget that this is an Argentinian came 20 years ago who taught us football. His name was Antonio Sastre."

1958 WC winning coach Feola who was the coach of Sastre at Sao Paulo said:
We had a good team, but we needed a player who equilibrate our tactical system. Sastre came and did that. With him, we were champions three times in four years. I tell the many who saw him play he had the same importance it had Zizinho first and Gerson later, players who lived to give tranquility to the team on the court

Poorly Google translated quote by teammate said:
Sastre was an unusual player for his creative talent, the rhythm of his movements with the ball or without it, and especially by the strength of his great intelligence, greater than that of the shot, low power," remember the Teixeirinha colleague more thirty years later."I played with him and I can say.... Was a disconcerting player never knew exactly what he would do with the ball Everything about him was creation, inspiration and beauty was a star of the brain type I can say, to better explain its style, which had a bit of Gershon, of Rivelino and Clodoaldo, but did not look at all, separately, with the football none of the three

Reason lived a long time in Buenos Aires following step by step the genius career, one whose powerful AFA, the Football Federation of Argentina officially considers the "most complete player in history" in the country.
Don't know how legit this quote is but I found it here

https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&u=http://www.arquibancadatricolor.com.br/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=665&prev=search
(Article compares his versatility to Ruud Gullit BTW)





A great pic of him and it seems he even played in goal twice and kept clean sheets:lol:


Spoilered some of the better sources on him


http://esporte.uol.com.br/futebol/biografias/384/sastre

http://lucarne-opposee.fr/index.php...enteur-du-football-moderne-en-amerique-du-sud

http://www.elgrafico.com.ar/2015/05/19/C-8134-antonio-sastre-el-hombre-orquesta.php

http://recuerdosrojos.blogspot.in/2015/04/antonio-cuila-sastre.html

https://tardesdepacaembu.wordpress.com/tag/antonio-sastre/

http://spfc.terra.com.br/forum2.asp?nID=335160

http://www.pasionfulbo.net/antonio-sastre-el-primer-polifuncional/
He seemed to play primarily as an inside forward and provider-in-chief to goalscoring legend Arsenio Erico in the earlier stages of his career, before dropping further back as he matured and frequently playing as a right half back.

For Argentina in their victorious 1937 Copa America campaign:

http://www.rsssf.com/tables/37safull.html

and for Sao Paulo en route to winning three championships in four years:

http://cacellain.com.br/blog/?p=22656

http://cacellain.com.br/blog/?p=15590

Leonidas certainly rated him:

Leonidas said:
"If there was a Nobel Prize for football, it would come right to Antonio Sastre"
and he was revered in Argentina. Two excellent posts from another forum:

n August of 1980 El Grafico published a poll about the greatest Argentinean players in any sport. In football the top 5 voted of all-time were: Sastre, Moreno, Pedernera, Di Stefano and Maradona. The votes were conducted through the members of the directive commission, utilizing the votes from journalists.

El Grafico asked five voices that witnessed all of those players if the final results were justified. Out of the five voices, 3 chose Antonio Sastre as the best and the other 2 chose Moreno. The men that picked Sastre were Jorge Alberti, Valentin Suarez and Ernesto Duchini.

Jorge Alberti was a central defender at Huracan between 1931-1947, and played with Di Stefano in 1946. He also played for the NT that won the 1941 South American championship.

Valentin Suarez was the president of the Association of Argentinean football between 1949-1953. He was also the chairman of the club of Benfield throughout many years.

Ernesto Duchini was a former player of Chacarita Juniors between 1927-1939. He was also manager of many youth Argentinian division teams, NT's that participated in Olympics, Panamericanos, and youth WC's. He was also Menotti's collaborator in the 1979 youth WC.

The men that picked Moreno were Jorge Lopez Pajaro and Roberto Porta.

Jorge Lopez Pajaro was a journalist.

Roberto Porta was a Uruguayan player during the 1930s and '40s. He played in Argentinian football and for Ambrosiana (today Inter Milan of Italy) before the war broke out in Europe and returned to play at Uruguay for Nacional.
Ok, if we simply take all into account, the fame, accomplishments, revolution to the game, impact/importance, skill set, longevity, peak level, historical transcendence, propaganda, then there is probably 6 players that are cemented in stone in a top 10.

By 1980 it was established by Argentine journalists that there were 5 players that were generally viewed as the greatest: Sastre, Pedernera, Moreno, Di Stefano and Maradona.

The inclusion of Maradona was the most debated because he was so young. But he made the list for what he had accomplished individually by the age of 20 by December 1980. 116 goals in 166 appearances for Argentinos Juniors. 10 goals in 22 appearances for the NT and the leader to the first youth WC NT title in 1979 for AFA's trophy cabinet. But it was his abilities that were so marveled that made him virtually a part of class of past legends. Over time there was no doubt he would ratify his position amongst the best with the entire decade ahead of him.

Lionel Messi becomes the 6th greatest of all time for what he has accomplished and represented in the past 10 years for Barcelona and the NT. In this modern era with all the hoopla and hype surrounding players, with super teams, with the rules that favor offensive players, he has been consistently one of the standout players of his generation and arguably the defining player of his time (although Cristiano's followers would oppose this).

So we have these untouchable top 6 in chronological order by age:
  1. Sastre
  2. Moreno
  3. Pedernera
  4. Di Stefano
  5. Maradona
  6. Messi
By acclamation a top 10 without these would leave a vacancy.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
its impossible to judge pats team :(
I'll come back to this mate as I've been planning to put together a post trying to put some of my players in historical context, but aye, the short answer is that it was always going to be next to impossible to squeeze this many pre-television players into the team and rack up the votes. Having missed out on Zanetti though I decided to go all-out with the retro vibe and it's made for some enjoyable research at least.

EDIT: I probably haven't helped myself by barely mentioning one Lionel Messi :lol:
 
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TooSweet

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I like the Argentina team better, Messi/Labruna & Corbatta/Munoz are big improvements in legendary Maquina team. They are also lucky not to be facing a modern formation. The Brazil team is great but it took 82 team and took it even more extreme, with losing its only DM Cerezo and direct player in Eder and replacing them with two more playmakers. What a game it would be to watch though.
 
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Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
I like the Argentina team better, Messi/Labruna & Corbatta/Munoz are big improvements in legendary Maquina team. They are also lucky not to be facing a modern formation. The Brazil team is great but it took 82 team and took it even more extreme, with losing its only DM Cerezo and direct player in Eder and replacing them with two more playmakers. What a game it would be to watch though.
Cheers mate. It would be fecking incredible to watch. If only there was more footage of the likes of Pedernera and Moreno. We can contextualise how good they were by their prximity to Di Stefano and his status as an undisputed great, but it would be awesome to actually see a full La Maquina match.

@oneniltothearsenal @antohan . Any chance one of you could translate what Di Stefano is saying in this video?


I like the ball juggling parts of this video too:


as it does give some limited flavour of Moreno's mastery of the ball, and has shades of the famous Maradona warm up:

 

antohan

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@Pat_Mustard

"If I had to pick a frontline it would be Muñoz, Moreno, Pedernera, Labruna and Lousteau. That simple. That's the ideal. One that (uninteligible), one that ran after it, another assisted, the other dribbled and the other would finish it"
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
A little bit on Moreno and particularly Pedernera just to emphasise how highly regarded they were. From the IFFHS South American Player of the Century Elections:

South America - Player of the Century
1."Pelé" (Brazil) 220 (Edson Arantes do Nascimento)
2.Diego Armando Maradona (Argentina) 193
3.Alfredo di Stéfano (Argentina) 161
4.Garrincha (Brazil) 142 (Manoel dos Santos Garrincha)
5.José Manuel Moreno (Argentina) 82
6.Juan Alberto Schiaffino(Uruguay) 52
7."Zico" (Brazil) 51 (Arthur Antunes Coimbra)
8.Arsenio Pastor Erico (Paraguay) 42
Elías Ricardo Figueroa (Chile) 42
10.Thomas Soãres "Zizinho"(Brazil) 40
11.Luis Alberto Cubilla (Uruguay) 25
12.Adolfo Pedernera (Argentina) 24
13.Arthur Friedenreich (Brazil) 21
"Tostão" (Brazil) 21 (Eduardo Gonçalves de Andrade)
Obdulio Jacinto Varela (Uruguay) 21
16.Enrique Omar Sivori (Argentina) 19
17.Teófilo Cubillas (Peru) 17
Valdir Pereira Didi (Brazil) 17
Willington Ortiz (Colombia) 17
20.José Leandro Andrade (Uruguay) 16
Héctor Scarone (Uruguay) 16
Alberto Spencer (Ecuador) 16
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Now that list is very harsh on recent players but it's still some rarified territory that my two attacking midfielders occupy.

In assessing their era, it's worth emphasising that these two were not only contemporaries of the great Di Stefano but were also good enough to keep him on the fringes of the River Plate team until he was 21. Di Stefano himself was effusive in his praise for the pair, as was the all-time great Uruguayan defensive midfielder Varela. A great article that Joga posted previously:

Pedernera, the twinkle-toed engine driver


“Obdulio, are you frightened of the Brazil forwards?” asked the journalists of Uruguay midfielder Obdulio Varela ahead of the final and decisive match of the 1950 FIFA World Cup Brazil™, which pitted La Celeste against the tournament hosts, with the Trophy at stake.

“Frightened?” came the reply. “I’ve played against Adolfo Pedernera and there’s nobody like him.”

It was a response that showed the esteem in which the great Pedernera, the man they called El Maestro, was held by the players who had to face him.

Though he died 20 years ago today, the Argentinian forward’s outstanding contribution to the game has not been forgotten, nor has the central role he played in two of the finest teams South America has ever seen: La Máquina, the fabled River Plate side of the 1940s, and El Ballet Azul, the name given to the richly talented line-up he subsequently formed part of at Colombian club Millonarios.

The inimitable Alfredo Di Stefano, among the shrewdest judges of them all, rated Pedernera one of the best players he had ever seen, having idolised him as a fan at the Estadio Monumental and then played alongside him briefly there and for nearly four years in Bogota.

It was at the Monumental that Pedernera acquired legendary status and became the scheming mastermind of La Máquina, a revolutionary, star-studded team that featured five forwards capable of swapping positions and popping up in places where the opposition least expected them.

Pedernera’s strike partners in La Máquina were Juan Carlos Munoz, Jose Manuel Moreno, Angel Labruna or Felix Lousteau, and those that saw the quintet in their pomp said they could win matches at any time they pleased. The brand of football they espoused made them, in many ways, the precursors of the hugely gifted Netherlands’ side of the 1970s, one spearheaded by JohanCruyff.

Part Cruyff, part Messi
Pedernera was the Cruyff of that much-celebrated River team, one shaped by its coach Renato Cesarini and his assistant Carlos Peucelle, who later revealed that the person responsible for coming up with its entirely appropriate nickname was none other than Pedernera’s mother Rosa.

Opinion is still divided as to whether Peucelle or Cesarini should get the credit for enabling Pedernera to give free rein to his creative talents, which were already very much in evidence when he made his debut for the Buenos Aires giants as a 16-year-old in 1935.

A Huracan youth product, the teenage Pedernera was fast on his feet, a skilful and fearless dribbler and could strike the ball with either foot. He dominated the left flank like no one else could, dreamed up passes that no one else saw and had a vision of the pitch that no one else possessed.

The youngster had won two Argentinian league titles and two cups when Peucelle and Cesarini became to Pedernera what Pep Guardiola would later become to Lionel Messi at Barcelona, switching him to a more central and more withdrawn role and inviting him to alternate between driving into the box to finish moves off and sitting back to direct them. The year was 1941 and La Máquina was born, and with it the so-called “false nine”.

With Pedernera in the role of maquinista (“engine driver”), River won three more league crowns and three more cups, while the Argentinian national team also benefitted, landing two South American titles thanks in no small part to their schemer-in-chief.

Sadly for the rest of the football community, the Second World War robbed them of the chance to see Pedernera at his peak.

Ballet in Bogota
A fractious relationship with Labruna and River president Antonio V. Liberti led to Pedernera leaving the club in 1946, his fortunes taking a dip in the next three years before a player strike over wages led to him becoming the first of several Argentinian footballers to offer their services to Colombian football.

A celebrity across the continent, he was welcomed by a crowd of five thousand people at Bogota Airport, and his arrival gave Millonarios just the exposure they and the newly founded Colombian league were looking for.

Pedernera also had a big hand in the mass exodus of Argentina’s finest players northwards. Though he demanded and made a lot of money from the game and enjoyed the Buenos Aires nightlife to the full, he never forgot about his colleagues, and helped found the Futbolistas Argentinos Agremiados (Union of Argentinian Footballers) in 1944. Set up to defend the country’s players, it had a leading role in calling the 1949 strike.

He was similarly adored in Colombia, his performance on his debut prompting one newspaper to write of him: “He is a phenomenon, an artist, a master passer and the epitome of intelligence. With him, everything is possible.

Where Pedernera went, others followed. The influx of great foreign players to Colombia, among them Di Stefano, marked the start of a golden era in the country’s footballing history, on that became known as El Dorado. Its influence on the style of the Colombian game can still be felt today.

Pedernera was the first dancer in Millonarios’ Ballet Azul, which won four Colombian league championships between 1949 and 1953 and a Mini Club World Cup title against leading South American and European teams.

After taking on player/coach duties in 1950 his influence remained huge, and it was as a coach that he further cemented his place in the history of Colombian football, guiding the national team to the FIFA World Cup for the very first time at Chile 1962.
and an excerpt from a brilliant article by Carl Worswick on the Columbian 'El Dorado' league:

Undeterred, Millonarios kept on buying players. Under the watchful eye of their wily club president Alfonso Senior, new signings were lured by under-the-table sweeteners. In early 1949 the Argentinian Carlos 'Cacho' Aldabe was signed and appointed player-manager. "'El Cacho was a friend of the great Argentinan player Adolfo Pedernera," Ruiz Bonilla said. "Soon after he joined Millonarios he approached Senior with the idea of bringing Pedernera to Colombia."

At the time Pedernera was arguably the world's best player, the star man in River Plate's fabled La Máquina side. He was, in the words of Uruguayan writer Eduardo Galeano, "the axis of River's La Máquina... generating play, threading passes through the eye of a needle, changing gear, surprising opponents with his bite."

It was a swoop so audacious, so ambitious, as to be almost unthinkable.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
A lovely if sad article on Corbatta from Jonathan Wilson:

Before Diego Maradona’s second goal against England in 1986, the greatest goal in Argentinian history had been scored by Omar Orestes Corbatta in a 4-0 win over Chile in qualifying for the 1958 World Cup

Argentina already led 2-0 when Corbatta beat his marker, took the ball round the goalkeeper, waited for another Chilean to approach, dribbled past him and then, as the crowd urged him to finish the move off, with the goalkeeper and two other defenders charging back, dummied to shoot, leaving all three on the ground before finally stroking the ball over the line. El Gráfico called it “the most impossible piece of play ever” and a painting of the goal hangs in the lobby of the offices of the players’ union.

But Corbatta’s was a tragic and sadly typical tale. What’s worst about it is that there was no one freakish event that precipitated the misery, no car crash or murder, no one betrayal or moment of catastrophic bad fortune: he was just a man with a majestic talent that propelled him into a sphere in which he was ill-equipped to cope.

At football, he was a genius; at life a disaster. Born in Daireaux, a small town in the Pampas a little under 300 miles to the south-west of Buenos Aires, he moved with his family to La Plata at an early age following the death of his father. He never learned to read or write, a fact of which he was ashamed: later in life, he spoke of how humiliated he would feel when team-mates discussed something they’d read in a newspaper or a magazine, but at the time he disguised his illiteracy by keeping a newspaper beside him whenever he was interviewed. The Racing captain Pedro Dellacha eventually taught him how to scrawl a signature.

Even as he became famous he remained painfully shy, particularly around women. Taking pity on him, his team-mates introduced him to a blonde woman who was crudely described as “una chica que hacía la calle” – a girl who did the street, expecting them to have a brief fling that would build up Corbatta’s confidence. Unexpectedly, he fell in love with her and they married, moving to a house in Banfield. But one day in 1959, Corbatta returned home to find she’d gone and the house had been stripped. “There weren’t even any spiders left,” he said.

He had, at least, overcome his shyness with women. Tita Mattiussi, the legendary manager of Racing’s youth hostel, told the story of Corbatta climbing over the wall at six o’clock one morning after a hectic night out. Mattiussi dunked him in a cold bath three times, but still heard Corbatta telling team-mates not to pass to him because he felt so dizzy he wasn’t sure he could stand up. “But when he woke up,” Mattiussi said, “he played like a beast and scored two goals.”

Corbatta’s private life may have been a mess, but on the pitch he prospered, playing with the humour that characterised the golden age, anecdotes coagulating around him. On one occasion, in a clásico against Independiente, Corbatta found himself man-marked by Alcides Silveira and, followed everywhere, couldn’t get into the game, so he dashed off the pitch and hid briefly behind the police who lined the front of the stands. In a game for the national team against Uruguay in 1956, he’d so exasperated Pepe Sasía with his showmanship that the forward waited for him to be fouled, ran over and kicked him in the face. Corbatta lost two teeth; he never had them replaced.

Corbatta became noted as a penalty specialist, famed for his knack of sending the goalkeeper the wrong way. Of 68 he took in his career, he scored 64. “At penalties,” he said in an interview with El Gráfico, “I killed them all. I stood near the ball so the keeper could not react. I never stood directly behind the ball – always to the side. I struck it with the inside of the right foot in the middle, always with a sharp blow. And I would duck my head so the goalkeeper didn’t know which way I was going to shoot, and I would change when I saw what he did. And when he moved, he was a dead man.”

Boca Juniors bought Corbatta for 12 million pesos in 1963, a payment that Racing invested in expanding their stadium and developing their training base. Already, though, drink was beginning to take its toll.

On a tour of Europe, the defender Carmelo Simeone was assigned to keep an eye on Corbatta. He was sure he’d kept Corbatta away from alcohol until one day he looked under his bed and found a pile of empty beer bottles.

Corbatta played in only 18 league games for Boca before leaving for Colombian side Independiente Medellín in the dying days of the El Dorado league.

In Colombia, his second wife left him, he ran out of money and he became ever more dependent on alcohol.

When he returned to Argentina at the age of 34, he was a relic of the player he had been, playing for San Telmo in the second division and then Italia Unidos and Tiro Federal de Río Negro in the lower leagues, the need for money and his lack of other skills forcing him to put off retirement as long as possible. “There are no friends in football,” he said, “especially when you’re in a bad way. They all disappear.” Many would say he didn’t want to be helped. His money gone, he took to living in a bar near the Fiorito hospital in Buenos Aires, sleeping beneath the counter in two drawers that had been knocked together. “My sister came to get me,” he said, “but I didn’t want to go back to La Plata. At night I’d get a magazine, look at the pictures and that would distract me a little so I could sleep. I spent everything I had. I gave a lot away without looking who I was giving it to.”

At the age of 38, when he finally retired from the professional game, he moved to Benito Juárez, a small town just south of the capital, where he lived in a shack, playing occasionally for two local sides.

Drunk, homeless and penniless, with four marriages behind him, Corbatta ended up sleeping in a changing room at El Cilindro, paying his board by working with the youth teams, his example a devastating reminder of the transitory nature of footballing glory. He died, aged 55, in 1991. Two years later, the street leading to the stadium was named after him.

And as I've spent the majority of my time focusing on my older players, a reminder that I've got this rather recognisable fella at the cutting edge of my attack:

 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Congrats @Pat_Mustard , happy to be the last winning vote :angel:
Touch tactical battle to choose. Congrats @Pat_Mustard
Congrats @Pat_Mustard , commiserations @Moby
Thanks lads :). I'm amazed that I ended up winning this as it looked like I was going to get slaughtered in the early stages. I really enjoyed the research for this one, and I'm glad to have hopefully helped Sastre come onto the radar a bit. His first starting appearance in a draft match?
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
@Pat_Mustard I must take credit for this result since I deprived you of Zanetti and forced you to go old-school ;)
:lol: It worked out quite nicely for me in the end! That said, the two selfish feckers I might be facing in the next round have stockpiled Finney/Matthews and Garrincha/Rivelino, so I'll probably have to sell out completely rejig things and set up more conventionally next time :mad:
 

harms

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Has the other Brazilian manager went through? It's going to be tough to stop him if that's the case