The 4-Way Draft R1: Onenil vs Tuppet

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

vs

........................... TEAM ONENIL .................................................................................. TEAM TUPPET .............................................

TEAM ONENIL


4231 England


Without much competition this England side selected itself. The core of the side is of course England’s 1966 World Cup winning side but with added heroes like Stanley Matthews and Duncan Edwards. While the 4231 is relatively new it was the best formation to get my best players on the pitch in their natural positions. Charlton played at the tip of Ramsey’s diamond 442 in ‘66 and that is essentially his same role here. He is just now surrounded by even better players than he was then. I considered other formations but getting Finney-Greaves-Matthews on the pitch was essential.

Matthews and Finney are two of the greatest wingers of all time, epitomizing the complete classic winger profile. Both were masters of dribbling and crossing yet they both boast impressive scoring records for wide forwards. Matthews is famous for playing professionally until he was almost 50 , a true early 20th century prototype for the professional athletes of today. Finney was the legend of Preston North End. While Matthews was truly the epitome of the classic winger, Finney was the prototype of modern wide forwards playing all across the front line with equal skill and panache.

Interesting when I was watching interviews of both of these how much FA Cup mattered to them. The FA Cup was like the peak trophy for them even more than the league. And this is before anyone even thought about a ‘Champions League’. These are two of England classiest players who would shine and excel in any era. They both had remarkable ball control, especially considering the heavy ball and the fact the defenders of this era kicked them like mad.

Greaves gets the nod here at CF. His goal scoring record is just phenomenal, leading all top 5 leagues. And we must not forget he did that playing for a poor side (Spurs haha). But seriously Greaves is just an impressive goal scorer. He gets the nod here because he presents a greater mismatch for Lucio. Lucio matches up better against Shearer than he does Greaves’ pace and runs.

Sir Bobby Charlton should need no introduction. This man was just a legend. From surviving the Munich crash to becoming a symbol England’s willpower, Charlton is the playmaker here and given a lot of freedom. Like in the WC when Alf asked him to play centrally that is what is required of him here. With the amount of quality around him Charlton might as well be playing in heaven.

The full backs are boring but effective choices. I originally was going to go full old school here. But then I changed my mind and regret it as Ashley Cole and Gary Neville feature a lot around here while my original two choices might not have even been selected.

Still the modern two fit perfect with the tactic even if they aren’t hipster choices. It’s just as well as I know from the Americas draft, Garrincha is just unstoppable against even top fullbacks. So Ashley Cole is as good a choice as any. He has the strength, speed and arseholiness to give Garrincha a hard time and not make it easy on the bent-knees angel. Plus Cole can contribute to the attacks while Garrincha won’t be tracking back. I do believe that all around Cashley poses more trouble for Garrincha both ways than Branco will for Tom Finney.

The heart of my side is the two centre-backs and midfielders. Bobby Moore and Rio Ferdinand are England best two CBs and they are both complete footballers.With Duncan Edwards as the pinnacle of a destroyer+ type of holding mid, Moore and Ferdinand present a unflappable line of defense. Pele, our opponent, even called Bobby Moore the best defender he ever played against. And now the Brazilians have Duncan Edwards in front. Bryan Robson as the box to box is the perfect complement for Edwards and the playmaker Charlton. This team defense overflows with grit and verve but also possesses tremendous class on the ball. Robson-Edwards in front of Moore-Ferdinand is going to be a problem for even the best Brazilian attackers.

Gordan Banks completes the side. Was a tough choice here as I really like Peter Shilton but Banks won a World Cup.


TEAM TUPPET

Tactic:
We are playing in a lopsided 4-2-3-1 formation.

• Garrincha’s more adventurous / less defensively reliable style of play is balanced on the other side by a much more hard working Rivellino. Rivellino has the same important role of 1970 team, without the ball he would be defending on the left side, while moving in the central midfield areas with the ball. Garrincha is just going to do his thing, most of our game is going to flow through him & Zico at the right side.
  
  
• Branco would be the more attacking fullback, providing overlaps to Rivelino and using his great left peg for crosses to Pele. Djalma on the other end is going to remain defensive, leaving the right side of the pitch completely to Garrincha. Both are world cup winners and have provided reliable defensive displays against some of the best wingers when needed.
  
  
• Gerson is the primary playmaker of the team from deep, partnered by probably the best brazilian midfield enforcer in Zito he would look to provide a defensive shield in front of Periera/Lucio partnership at central defense. Gerson would probably get underrated as he often does especially against B2B physical players, but he is rated as one of the finest playmaker/midfielder ever and did play against some great European midfielders and usually came out on top.
  
  
• Periera/Lucio is a complimentary stopper/ball playing defender partnership. Covered by the greatest Brazilian goalkeeper and two time world cup winner Gilmar.
  
  
• Zico is attacking midfielder while Pele is playing as striker, both would interchange from time to time, and share the goal scoring burden. Bred in the same Joga Bonito style of play I think they would thrive with each other.
  
  
• Finally, we are playing in the Brazilian style of technique and flair and would look to dominate the ball. In the same vein as well, I don’t expect us to keep onenil’s formidable team at bay, and our hope is firmly on the shoulder of our front 5 to outscore the opposition. I do have a fantastic front 4 that reads as Football’s who’s who and a case could be made for them to the Top 4 Brazilian players ever. So yeah hope is that they would show up and get us over the line.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@oneniltothearsenal @Tuppet All the best!

 

[Tuppet]

Best of luck @oneniltothearsenal That is a fantastic side you have assembled.

As mentioned before my hope here is to outscore you and Zico-Pele connection if works would be absolutely nightmare to play against no matter the defense they are facing. Pele is one of the finest finisher of all time, ice cold and incredibly inventive. If he starts getting at the end of some of the following passes from Zico


There is also the heading route from Branco's and Garrincha's crosses in Pele's arsenal.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Oh I missed this somehow, good luck and great side @Tuppet

For myself, I've enjoyed finding documentaries and other stuff on Tom Finney and Stanley Matthews, two players I always wanted to watch more. Really great stories for both of them
Here was a fun article from Guardian on Finney

TOM FINNEY

Bill Shankly said:
“Tom Finney would have been grea”t in any team, in any match and in any age ... even if he had been wearing an overcoat.
Shankly was asked about how a top star of the day compared to Finney said:
“Aye, he's as good as Tommy – but then Tommy's nearly 60 now.”

Tommy Docherty said:
“To me Messi is Finney reborn. He was a diamond. If I was a manager and was able to buy any player who has played the game, I would buy Finney.”

Sir Stanley Matthews said:
“To dictate the pace and course of a game, a player has to be blessed with awesome qualities. Those who have accomplished it on a regular basis can be counted on the fingers of one hand – Pelé, Maradona, Best, Di Stefano, and Tom Finney.”

Ron Atkinson said:
"There's George Best, Tom Finney and Stanley Matthews" for the best he has ever seen.

Jimmy Armfield:
“People ask ‘could he do it today?’ Tom was an athlete. People forget that. Tom played on heavy pitches with a heavy ball and in heavy boots. Players couldn’t do the things they do today with the old ball. The game has changed. But Tom had power. People never mention his power and athleticism. He had that. It was part of his versatility. That’s why he could play across the front line; he had a surge. The majority of the good players I’ve seen, the real top-liners, have all been athletes. If you look at Messi, Ronaldo and Agüero, they are athletes. They move so quickly.
“Pele. Maradona. Tom was quick, oh yes, quick over a short distance. He was difficult to play against. I was quick, I could run, but he could force his way round you.
“Tom got kicked. You had a job to stop them. Tommy Docherty told me a story in the church: there was a lad from Chelsea, Stan Willemse, who was kicking Tom around a bit. Tommy Doc went up and said to Tom Finney: ‘What about him (Willemse). What’s he doing?’ ‘He’s doing his best’, Tom replied.”

His brilliance inspired and often carried the team. Bill Shankly, an established right-half for Preston when Finney joined (and later manager of Liverpool), said of his friend: "Tom Finney would have been great in any team, in any match and in any age … even if he had been wearing an overcoat." It was classic Shankly hyperbole, though few who saw Finney play would disagree with the sentiment.

Finney had a glittering career, but little silverware to show for it – the price he paid for loyalty. The only medals he collected were for the 1941 Wartime cup (not regarded as a full football honour), when Preston beat Arsenal 2-1, and the 1951 Second Division championship.

He even remained loyal to Preston when the Italian prince Roberto Lanza di Trabia made him an unimaginable offer to play for his team, Palermo, in Sicily. The prince had seen Finney play for England while they were touring Italy in 1952, and was so impressed he offered him a £10,000 signing-on fee, wages of £130 a month plus a bonus of up to £100 a game, a Mediterranean villa, a sports car and unlimited travel to and from Italy for his family. At the time, Finney was earning £14 a week with Preston (reduced to £12 in the summer close-season) plus a bonus of £2 for a win and £1 for a draw. To top up his wages, England's best footballer ran a plumbing business on the side.

The club refused the transfer outright, even when a £30,000 fee was offered as compensation. Its desperation to hold on to Finney became apparent just a year after he retired. Deprived of its most inspirational figure, this historic small-town club – founder members of the Football League in 1888 and its first-ever champions – went into long-term decline.

Finney was born a street away from Deepdale, the home of the club he would come to embody. He was a slight, sickly boy, hampered by an infected gland in his neck. It was removed when he was 14, and shortly afterwards he gained a trial with Preston. Despite standing just 4ft 9in and weighing less than 5 stone, he was offered a contract to join the ground staff, but his father insisted that he learn a trade. So he signed instead as an amateur part-timer, and became an apprentice plumber – an occupation that would run parallel with (and outlast) his football career and lead to his nickname, the Preston Plumber.

Finney turned professional just after the outbreak of the second world war, which would steal years from his career. He had two excellent feet. A natural left-footer who began as an inside-left, he was switched by Preston to the right wing.

During the war he served with the Royal Armoured Corps and was a tank driver in north Africa and Italy, where he took part in the battle to capture Argenta in April 1945. He was also selected to play for several forces sides in Egypt, once lining up for the Eighth Army against the actor Omar Sharif, who was playing for King Farouk's team.

Finney was given a relatively quick discharge from the army – not to play football, but because plumbers were needed to help with reconstruction. He made his long-delayed league debut for Preston at the age of 24 against Leeds United on 31 August 1946, the opening day of the first postwar season. It was the first of 473 competitive appearances for the club, in which he scored 210 goals.

Many comparisons were made between Finney and Matthews, whom he initially displaced on England's right wing. Matthews was a showman, dubbed "the wizard of the dribble", an out-and-out winger who would hug the touchline. Finney was more versatile, playing in all five forward positions over the course of his career, and could score as well as create goals.

In his autobiography, The Way It Was, published just after his death in 2000, Matthews wrote: "To dictate the pace and course of a game, a player has to be blessed with awesome qualities. Those who have accomplished it on a regular basis can be counted on the fingers of one hand – Pelé, Maradona, Best, Di Stéfano and Tom Finney."

Finney made his England debut in a 7-2 trouncing of Northern Ireland in 1946, the first of 76 appearances in which he scored 30 goals, then a record. England looked strongest when both wingers were deployed, with Matthews on the right and the versatile Finney playing out of position on the left. The first time they played this way was in May 1947 in Lisbon against Portugal, who were routed 10-0. Matthews was irresistible, but Finney was in such devastating form that his direct opponent, the Portuguese captain and right-back Álvaro Cardoso, walked off the field in the first half, demanding to be substituted, and would never play for his country again. A year later, the pair outclassed Italy in Turin, Finney cutting in to score the last two English goals in a 4-0 humiliation of the holders of the World Cup, last competed for in 1938.

Finney appeared in three World Cups, though none was truly satisfactory. The imperious English Football Association had not entered the first three tournaments, held before the war, and had its comeuppance when it deigned to enter in 1950 in Brazil. England beat Chile in their first game, but then lost 1-0 to the US, a team of part-timers. The team then lost their final group game, also 1-0, to Spain, and were knocked out.

In 1954, in Switzerland, Finney helped England reach the quarter-finals and scored their second goal when they lost 4-2 to Uruguay. Four years later, in Sweden, he was injured in the opening match against the Soviet Union, which put him out of the rest of England's disappointing tournament. Despite his injury, Finney stayed on the field to put away the penalty that gave England a 2-2 draw.

Finney's personal milestones included being named footballer of the year in 1954, at the age of 32. He collected the award on the eve of the FA Cup final, a game for which he, and much of the nation, hoped he would finally obtain a winner's medal. But Finney, normally so at home at Wembley, played what he later described as his worst ever game for Preston, as they lost 3-2 to West Bromwich Albion.

In 1956, a new Preston manager, Cliff Britton, moved Finney to a deep-lying centre-forward position. Making use of his balance, passing and ability to glide past players, Finney was able to play a more pivotal role in the team. He was a revelation, playing some of the best football of his life, and in 1957 became the first player to be voted English footballer of the year for a second time.

That season, he scored 27 goals in 40 games, as Preston, usually to be found mid-table, finished third in the league. The following season he scored 26 goals and the team were runners-up. They dropped to 12th in 1958-59, when he was able to play only 16 league games, for half a dozen goals.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/feb/14/sir-tom-finney

 

[Pat_Mustard]

On first glance Tuppet's attack looked nailed on to win pretty much any game, but this is a tough one. Matthews vs Branco jumps out as a particularly promising route to goal, and Edwards/Robson is a superb defensive shield.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

On Stanley Matthews

In reality, Stanley Matthews perfected the three-step footballing foxtrot to the point of perfection over a career spanning three decades. Much like his trademark move, the devastatingly simple twinkle-toed movement that’s equally effective in carving up lead-legged defenders to exploit usable space in ways a true winger perfects over a lifetime – the story of Stanley Matthews – football’s ‘Ironman’ is one of austerity.

It’s a tricky thing to venture into the game’s grainy past as time surges the game forward. The football of yesteryear, captured on light-sensitive film strips and played out in black-and-white, is wondrous. Coincidentally, much like the film reels themselves, the football seems less complicated, more transparent, and much more sensitive to today’s bright lights of fame. The veneer of the game is as glossy as ever, perhaps if only for fleeting nostalgic concession.

Future generations will never have to remember football this way – bridging the I wonder ifs with the all accounts indicate so to construct what becomes the story. Naturally, highlighting a figure in times where professional footballers weren’t allowed to earn or rarely earned more than £20 week is a journey into the game’s wistful past.

It’s almost unthinkable to conceptualise a world where professional players earned what seems like a paltry wage compared to modern pay scales. Moreover, these footballers often attracted hundreds of thousands of spectators, and Stanley Matthews was said to attract no fewer than 10,000 additional supporters at away grounds he turned out to play on.

The footballing story of Stanley Matthews is full of unthinkables. For example, by the time he retired in 1965 at 50, Matthews made closed to 700 league appearances for Stoke City and Blackpool. With over 50 appearances for England to his name, he defined the role of a true winger, balancing speed, ability on the ball and a change of pace that is the standard for a winger today.

However, it wasn’t just his ability to operate on the right wing that proved remarkable. It was his proclivity to put his boots on the chalk, so to speak, and exploit the right flank over and over again in a single game, against defenders several years his junior and who knew the signature move was coming, but who could do nothing short of chopping the man down to stop him.

A facet of great players is their consistency in performance. Matthews channelled a childhood and adolescence full of sprinting and ability on the track into a mould of a footballer with a greyhound’s burst and a factory worker’s frame. Serious players are either taught, told or discover a ‘secret’ early on in their playing days: the defender might track you for eight, maybe 10 bursts, but that 11th time, that’s when you’ve got him. Such command of the ball technically and dominance in a footrace earned Matthews the nickname, ‘The Wizard of Dribble’.

There was more to his game than The Matthews move and an exquisite ability to serve the ball into the box. Good wingers serve the ball and hope, which highlights the skill required to win a one-on-one duel, create space and serve the ball. Great wingers, however, drive through this process with an intention that’s infectious. The assumption gives way to the expectation that they will beat their marker and will deliver a quality service into the box.

Matthews scored goals, was a reliable passer, and commanded a myriad of ways to turn a defender inside-out to reach the byline. A trademark skill borne of his upbringing relishing the frequent footrace or when his father refused to give him bus fare to town for work as a young bricklayer. Matthews, even in his older years, had an uncanny ability to stop on a dime and play a striker in for a goal. Over his expansive career, it’s said that Matthews was never booked or disciplined for misconduct proving that the moniker “the first gentleman of football” was fully deserved.

Here’s another unthinkable that sheds light on his effect on opponents. Truth be told, hearing defender in modern football candidly admitting to getting rinsed by a technically superior player the way Jo Pannaye did after Belgium’s 2-0 loss to England at Wembley in January of 1946, is unheard of these days: “He was the best player I’ve ever seen. A ghost. I asked some of those close to me to help, but they could do nothing.”

The evergreen impact of a figure like Stanley Matthews has an Everyman quality to it. There’s a blue-collar aspect to the Matthews story that serves as a bridge between the past and present. The paltry wages, which he helped support his mother on, were still just a bit more than the wages the average labourer earned in his day. Such realities humanise football and its figureheads as football then was still a working-class game and fans could relate to players in ways that are impossible today.

But Matthews’ skill and ability to manipulate the ball at speed, influence a game and put in a workmanlike shift was anything but average. The working=class saw in Matthews the type of effort they themselves put in each shift at the factory or on the docks. The superhuman longevity of Stanley Matthews clashed with the very human side of the man himself. He was known for suffering from extreme nervousness and anxiety to the point of physical sickness before games, yet on the pitch he was cold-blooded and performed with the type of pomp, circumstance and poise that made him such an attraction.

http://thesefootballtimes.co/2016/1...hews-and-the-story-of-englands-humble-wizard/

Stanley Matthews







Tom Finney




Jimmy Greaves

 

[Tuppet]

On first glance Tuppet's attack looked nailed on to win pretty much any game, but this is a tough one. Matthews vs Branco jumps out as a particularly promising route to goal, and Edwards/Robson is a superb defensive shield.

Yeah, I am a big Matthews fan and I don't really have high hopes from that encounter. For his part, Branco is a world cup winner in one of the more pragmatic Brazil teams, producing good defensive display against Overmars and there's Zito & Hard working Rivelino to provide help, still I don't think that would be enough. But then again I never assumed my defense can stop Onenil's attack. And his fullbacks also have their hands full against Garrincha and Rivelino. Neither Neville nor Cole have it easy here, specially with both of the winger's buddy Pele lurking on goalmouth.

With the brilliant attackers on display here from both teams, its easy to find Rivellino a bit underwhelming and he is slightly underrated in all time stakes. But he was a ridiculously talented footballer, essentially a slightly slower, more hardworking Ronaldinho with a cannonball shot. From the footage I've seen it was extremely hard to get the ball off him unless you barged or kicked him which many defenders resorted to out of frustration. Here's a little profile on him -

When you’re considered to be the fourth greatest player in Brazilian history after Pele, Zico, and Garrincha, that’s about as great an accomplishment as there is. Rivelino was lauded for his grace on the pitch, as well as his dazzling array of moves, which included his patented “Elastico,” in which he faked going right while keeping control of the ball and then spinning it to his left. This move has become a staple in modern football, popularized by the likes of Ronaldinho, Cristiano Ronaldo, Zlatan Ibrahimovic, Ronaldo (the Phenomenon), and others.

Rivelino, who perfected his tricks by playing futsal in Sao Paulo, was more than just a playground player. He had excellent passing skills, a sharp mind, excellent dribbling skills, and a thunderous left footed shot. He was also a tremendous free-kick taker, famous for his “banana-bending” kicks. He scored a famous goal against the Czechs during the 1970 World Cup that was nicknamed “The Atomic Kick.” He was an important part of the aforementioned 1970 World Cup squad, which is widely regarded as one of the greatest teams of all time. He played in two subsequent World Cups and ended his international career with 92 appearances and 26 goals.

He was also a quick thinker, and one example of this was when he saw the opposing teams goalkeeper finishing up his pre-match prayer right as the whistle blew to begin the game. Rivelino took the kickoff and booted a long-range shot that beat the startled goalkeeper for what is considered to be the fastest goal in football history.

Rivelino carved out an excellent reputation for himself, despite playing in the shadows of Pele and Zico.

Then there are a few ringing endorsements from the very best -

I came here to see Pelé and ended up watching Rivelino

I grew up as an Argentinian kid, but with a Brazilian as my idol. His name? Rivelino. Everyone talked about Pelé, and I take my hat off, great player, but I didn't care what Pelé was doing, my eyes were all for Rivelino on the other side of the pitch. His left foot, his elegance, his rebelliousness... He was everything I wanted to be as a player. His dribbling was flawless, his passes perfectly accurate, and his shots unstoppable. And he did everything with his left foot. It didn’t matter if his right foot was only good to stand on, because there was nothing he couldn’t do with his left. To me it was beautiful.

I have to say he was better than me at that. It was like the ball was glued to his foot, he would pull it one way then back and VOOM!, off he went on a run. Really impressive. Amazing.

There's hardly a higher endorsement then when Maradona said that Rivelino is all he aspires to be.

Spoiler: Maradona on Rivelino

And finally there are loads of youtube videos available for anyone to enjoy some Rivelino trickery, but I've always enjoyed the Football's greatest series, so here it goes -

There's also some really good stuff here -

 

[Pat_Mustard]

That's an excellent and very fair post @Tuppet . I agree that Rivelino's genius seems to get overlooked at times and I look forward to watching that episode of Football's Greatest. I've never seen it despite the fecking Gerrard one seeming to be on Sky constantly .

 

[Tuppet]

​

Going to bed and just wanted to mention Pele's name in discussion before that. As it often understandably happen, we take it for granted that possibly the greatest player to ever kick a ball is on the pitch recreating his undefeated partnership with possibly the greatest winger/dribbler in Garrincha and focus on the flaws. We don't have the greatest defense but thats because I spent my load on assembling some of the finest attackers in history of game for my team. I firmly believe that's the best way to go about Brazilian football and that this attack can win the game against any defense. Pele is the best player on the pitch and with Zico/Garrincha/Rivelino/Gerson are providing unstoppable creativity for him.

Here are a few goals set up by Gerson/Rivelino/Garrincha etc in world cups -


And then some more. Dribbling, heading, finishing, a genius !

Here's a long but interesting BBC documentary on Pele & Garrincha if anyone would like to watch that -

Spoiler: Pele & Garrincha

 

[Ecstatic]

2 brilliant teams.

I don't think oneniltothearsenal can upgrade his team if he wins, maybe neville.

 

[idmanager]

Love the write up @oneniltothearsenal .
Wanted to abstain from voting as I see a draw written all over this.
But went for onenil just because I found his defense slightly stronger with a lesser chance of conceding.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Ultimately I feel my defense does better against Tuppet's amazing attack than vice versa. Jimmy Greaves matches very well against Lucio and Pereira. Much better than vice versa.

Pele himself called Bobby Moore the best defender he ever faced.

Love the write up @oneniltothearsenal .

Thanks, id, appreciate that

 

[Tuppet]

While its true that onenil's defense is pretty good, and esp Moore is the standout defender on the pitch, he is facing Pele who has fantastic record against him. While Pele admit that Moore was the best defender he faced, Pele still got a very good record against him. When playing for Santos against Moore's West Ham in 1970 he scored 2 goals -


Also their admiration was certainly mutual -


Sir Bobby Charlton also expressed similar thoughts -


So yeah, while I agree that my defense is weaker than onenil's you have to take into account the best player in the game. What's the point of having him if he can not win us the game against a better defense. Almost too often the games in the drafts are decided by balanced teams etc, but Pele is not just some good striker that you chalk up in the comparison sheets, with thoughts like yeah both teams have good striker, but one has a better defender, so that team wins etc, Pele is the difference maker. His big game pedigree is almost unparalleled.

Also while we are on the subject of putting great defenses to sword, one can not overlook Zico. In 1981 Intercontinental cup final Zico's Flamengo faced European winners Liverpool who had just defeated Real Madrid without conceding. At half time Liverpool were 3-0 down. Zico made Alan Hansen and Graeme Souness, two of Liverpool’s finest players, and two of the best British players look positively ordinary. His brilliant lofted pass over Hansen’s head left the defender flat footed and sent Nunes through to score Flamengo’s first goal. He repeated the feat for Nunes’ second and Flamengo’s third in the 41st minute. Zico also created the other goal, when his free kick on a hard, bumpy pitch was too fierce for goalkeeper Bruce Grobbelaar to hold. Adilio scored from the rebound.

Zico was on another level despite Souness’ best attempts to stop him and Souness was at least as good defensively as Robson was.

I wanted to see how he would react to a physical challenge, but I couldn’t get close enough to him to find out.

Here's another beautiful assist, scored against a defense of Zoff/Sciera/Gentile/Cabrini protected by Tardelli -

Zico twisted and turned that Italy defense every which way that game, and we now have Pele to get to the end of those passes.

 

[Gio]

Lovely England team @oneniltothearsenal. Great effort and struggle to see any real room for improvement. And you do fancy Matthews and Greaves to have a good game here. For Tuppet, Zico, Pele and Garrincha seems like cheating.

 

[idmanager]

Feels unfair to vote for either and Tuppet is right, about his attack and Pele.
But Lucio there is a couple of notches below every other CB on the pitch there IMO. Don't get me wrong, he was pretty good, but I personally don't rate him among the other 3 and definitely not among the rest of the quality on that pitch.
I don't think Gary Neville deserves to be there too, but I felt having a weak CB is a bigger problem than a weak RB.
Having a more significant weak link made me vote the other way. Where do the others rate Lucio?

 

[Gio]

Feels unfair to vote for either and Tuppet is right, about his attack and Pele.
But Lucio there is a couple of notches below every other CB on the pitch there IMO. Don't get me wrong, he was pretty good, but I personally don't rate him among the other 3 and definitely not among the rest of the quality on that pitch.
I don't think Gary Neville deserves to be there too, but I felt having a weak CB is a bigger problem than a weak RB.
Having a more significant weak link made me vote the other way. Where do the others rate Lucio?

I think Greaves is well placed here to get a goal and he'll have a much easier job against the Brazilian defence than his own. But I probably rate Lucio higher than that, certainly in the top 4 or 5 Brazilian CBs of all time. Tremendous physique, good with the ball, and a man-mountain for Inter in their treble-winning year of 2009. Always a bit error prone relative to the other greats which is why he's in the tier below IMO. Haven't seen enough of Luis Pereira to properly judge him. Agree on Neville, although England are not exactly laden with memorable right-backs over the years, so he's probably the best or thereabouts of a relatively underwhelming bunch.

 

[Tuppet]

Feels unfair to vote for either and Tuppet is right, about his attack and Pele.
But Lucio there is a couple of notches below every other CB on the pitch there IMO. Don't get me wrong, he was pretty good, but I personally don't rate him among the other 3 and definitely not among the rest of the quality on that pitch.
I don't think Gary Neville deserves to be there too, but I felt having a weak CB is a bigger problem than a weak RB.
Having a more significant weak link made me vote the other way. Where do the others rate Lucio?

Its as you said, Lucio is probably a bit lower than other defenders on the pitch. It was toss up between him and Thiago Silva for me for that CB spot and Lucio's better big game record (WC & CL winner) tipped it slightly in his favor. Brazil is not blessed with great defenders, but despite that they haven't been too shabby at international scene.

To be fair to Lucio he was part of the World cup winning Brazilian defense that only conceded 1 goal in knock out phase. Also part of the Treble winning Inter team that dethrone one of the finest club team in Pep's Barcelona mostly on their defending prowess. So yeah, he is not the greatest defender but don't think he is a weak link.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Feels unfair to vote for either and Tuppet is right, about his attack and Pele.
But Lucio there is a couple of notches below every other CB on the pitch there IMO. Don't get me wrong, he was pretty good, but I personally don't rate him among the other 3 and definitely not among the rest of the quality on that pitch.
I don't think Gary Neville deserves to be there too, but I felt having a weak CB is a bigger problem than a weak RB.
Having a more significant weak link made me vote the other way. Where do the others rate Lucio?

Personally I think Gary Neville is comfortably better than Branco. Branco in these drafts gets a LOT of mileage out of one single decent game against a young Marc Overmars. A young Overmars that was about 4-5 years away from his prime years. The reality is Branco was not as good overall as several unpicked Brazilian LBs. Branco's career shouts journeyman where he bounced around to Brescia for two years then Porto for three, then Genoa for two before going back to Brazil and having a poor season for Gremio. As I much as I am not a Gary Neville fan at all, Gary really had a much more impressive career and 3 year peak than Branco who seems to get selected over a few better Brazilian LBs solely because of one match against a pre-peak Overmars.
For example Branco never even won a Bola De Prata for best in his position while he was in Brazil compared to Gary Neville who was selected the best PL RB 4 years in a row. Really their peaks aren't even close with Neville much better than Branco.

Lucio-Pereira with Zito and Gerson in front and Branco to one side is a far worse defense than Ferdinand-Moore with Edwards in front and Cole and Neville flanking.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Surprised to see Greaves starting over Shearer!

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Surprised to see Greaves starting over Shearer!

I felt Greaves' skill set matched up better to take advantage of Lucio - Pereira.

For instance I can see Greaves making runs like this and exploiting the mistake prone Lucio with his pace and technique

Spoiler: England Goal Vs Lucio

 

[Joga Bonito]

I think Greaves is well placed here to get a goal and he'll have a much easier job against the Brazilian defence than his own. But I probably rate Lucio higher than that, certainly in the top 4 or 5 Brazilian CBs of all time. Tremendous physique, good with the ball, and a man-mountain for Inter in their treble-winning year of 2009. Always a bit error prone relative to the other greats which is why he's in the tier below IMO. Haven't seen enough of Luis Pereira to properly judge him. Agree on Neville, although England are not exactly laden with memorable right-backs over the years, so he's probably the best or thereabouts of a relatively underwhelming bunch.

Was always impressed from what little I'd seen of Armfield and many consider him to be the greatest English RB of all time. Also if memory serves me right, Armfield-Matthews had some chemistry going on at Blackpool for a short period of time.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Sir Bobby Charlton
Who has much easier defensive opponents he is going against than Zico

United beat Hibernian Valletta of Malta and FC Sarajevo of Yugoslavia in the first two rounds of the European Cup before meeting Gornik Zabrze of Poland in the quarter-finals. They took a 2-0 lead from the first leg to Poland where they had to play on a snow covered pitch. It continued to snow during the match and United went down 1-0. But they were through to the semis where they would face Real Madrid. Busby told journalists: " I feel this is our year."

United held only a fragile 1-0 lead as they went to the Bernabeau for the second leg against Real. Law was out with an injury and by half-time United were 3-1 down. The dream was dying again.

Somehow United stuck to the task and, through David Sadler and Foulkes, came away with a 3-3 draw. Charlton has no hesitation in naming it the greatest match he played in - his favourite above World and European Cup Final glory. "Real were murdering us," said Charlton, "but we came out after the break, battled away and they collapsed."

The night of May 29 at Wembley was to be the fulfillment of Charlton's long and heartbreaking journey. The Red Devils of Manchester against the Red Devils of Lisbon . . . the old foes, Eusebio's Benfica.

Benfica were vastly experienced. They had played 52 European Cup ties, winning 29. United had played 32 and won 20. Benfica, who had already won the trophy twice, were appearing in their fifth European Cup Final in eight years. It was United's first. And in Eusebio, Benfica had the second highest goalscorer of all time in the competition with 36, topped only by the peerless Di Stefano of Real Madrid with 49.

Charlton had played in all four of United's European Cup campaigns, but this was the first in which he had not scored. A week before the final, in an international against Sweden, he had broken Jimmy Greaves's record of 44 goals for England. Now, on this historic night as captain of Manchester United, he was determined to put matters right. Just after half-time, Sadler crossed and Charlton rose to meet the ball. He scored, unusually for him with a header. United had the lead.

Now there were only nine minutes to the final whistle when United's defence left Graca unmarked and he stunned the crowd with an equaliser. United were tiring, Benfica coming on strong. With time running out, Eusebio twice had good chances to grab the glory. Each time he was foiled by Alex Stepney in goal. Benfica were overunning United and looked certain to get the winner. Then the whistle went. United had the chance to regroup before extra time.

It was then that United took the game by the scruff of the neck. Best weaved his magic, beating two men before sidefooting the ball into the net. Brian Kidd, United's present-day assistant manager, headed the third.

But how appropriate it was that Charlton, the Busby Babe, the spirit of Munich, should score the last for a crushing 4-1 triumph. Busby, having achieved his life'sambition, became Sir Matt. Charlton, then aged 31, was rewarded with an eight-year contract, the longest in Football League history, and received the OBE.

United reached the semi-finals of the European Cup the following season, falling to eventual trophy winners Milan. It was the end of an era. Sir Matt retired at 60, his work done, and United fell into the doldrums.

Wilf McGuinness, who had joined the club on the same day as Charlton, was promoted from youth team manager to take over with Sir Matt upstairs as general manager. A succession of managers came and went. It was to be 26 years before United would be back in the European Cup, now called the Champions League, and by then Charlton would be sitting in the directors' box.

There was to be one last hurrah on the international stage for Charlton. The World Cup of 1970 in Mexico with England defending as Champions.

Before they could reach Mexico, Charlton was caught up in the Nightmare of the Bogota Bracelet. England captain Bobby Moore was accused of stealing it in Colombia. The charge was ludicrous and Moore was eventually cleared after being held in jail for four days.

But just as absurdly, the police alleged that Charlton had been Moore's accomplice. As Moore was to say: "The fact that they accused Bobby Charlton of sheltering me while I 'stole' a bracelet proves I'm innocent. Bobby has never done a dishonest thing in his life."

The match of the tournament was the 1-0 defeat by Brazil. But it was the showdown with West Germany in the quarter-finals that was England's undoing. Leading 2-0 mid-way through the second-half, they lost their grip on the game and went down 3-2. The World Champions were out.

And where was Charlton? Sitting on the substitutes' bench! Manager Ramsey had pulled him off when the match was seemingly won.

Sir Alf explained: "I decided to substitute Bobby as I wanted to save him for the semi-finals. He understood, although he was far from happy." Neither were England's fans. By the time he retired as a player in 1973, Charlton had scored 245 goals in 751 games for United. The manner of his going was typical.

Tommy Docherty, then United's manager, said: "I was thinking that I'd have to make the decision and didn't want to do it. There would have been a public outcry. But he came to see me and said he was thinking about retiring. I breathed a huge sigh of relief. I'm glad he made the decision and not me."

He tried management with Preston - for whom he turned out as a player in 1974, the year he was awarded the CBE - and later with Wigan Athletic. But he returned to United as a member of the board and was knighted in 1994.

Just how great was he? Football writer Mike Langley claims England have never replaced him. George Best said: "I've never seen anyone go past players as easily as he did." Charlton himself, self-effacing as ever, said only: "I was lucky." But the last word should go to Sir Matt, mentor and friend, of whom Charlton said: "He never got over Munich. He felt responsible. Those were his kids that died that day."

It was Charlton, through his achievements, who did so much to ease "the old man's" pain and Busby recognised it. "There has never been a more popular footballer," said Sir Matt. "He was as near perfection as man and player as it is possible to be."

There can be no higher praise from no greater judge.

 

[harms]

Best of luck @oneniltothearsenal That is a fantastic side you have assembled.

As mentioned before my hope here is to outscore you and Zico-Pele connection if works would be absolutely nightmare to play against no matter the defense they are facing. Pele is one of the finest finisher of all time, ice cold and incredibly inventive. If he starts getting at the end of some of the following passes from Zico


There is also the heading route from Branco's and Garrincha's crosses in Pele's arsenal.

I have to ask, what the hell is going on with the font there

 

[harms]

Great to see that my Finney compilation is being used - ridiculous to think that this game is said to be one of the worst in his career (I suppose this notion is slightly exagerrated though)

Just recently this appeared in the suggested videos — I didn't have the time to watch it yet but it should be very interesting

 

[harms]

Tough decision. Brazil's front four (well, six) is just sublime, and imagining Zico in that 1970 team Probably in Pele's role, with Pele himself being from the mid 60's.

But then England has a stronger core, and is definitely a notch above defensively. Moore against Pele is another classic as well.

Leaning towards England at the moment. Moore and Banks (with Gilmar defending the goal on the other side) are the difference makers. English front 4 is worse, or rather Brazil's is better, the word "worse" shouldn't be applied to the Finney-Charlton-Greaves-Matthews unit at any circumstance), but those two, and Rio as well, should prove their level.

 

[Gio]

Was always impressed from what little I'd seen of Armfield and many consider him to be the greatest English RB of all time. Also if memory serves me right, Armfield-Matthews had some chemistry going on at Blackpool for a short period of time.

Same here. Good point about his partnership with Matthews.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Hard luck @oneniltothearsenal

Congrats @Tuppet

 

[Ecstatic]

This game would have deserved more posts from neutrals.

This game would be very exciting in real life

Both managers would have deserved to win.

I will take the time on Thursday to watch the videos

 

[harms]

@oneniltothearsenal shouldn't be to worried about the loss, I assume, as he had already drafted a non-upgradable XI.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

@oneniltothearsenal shouldn't be to worried about the loss, I assume, as he had already drafted a non-upgradable XI.

It was a tough loss as Branco has become a pet peeve of mine in drafts. I made a note about him several drafts ago when I saw someone bring out that 1994 match against Overmars for the 2nd or 3rd time that I had seen. It seems like that is literally the only match of Branco's people even know. It always rubbed me the wrong way because Overmars was nowhere near his career peak in that tournament. 1994 Overmars is not nearly as good as 1998 Overmars and 1998 Overmars is not even comparable to Stanley Matthews in his absolute career peak. Yet that single match has gotten soo much mileage its a bit silly.

After doing some further research to confirm my memory, I feel there were at least four Brazilian left-backs with superior resumes even if they don't have that singular "wow remember this one game" moment

• Marinho Chagas
• Leonardo
• Felipe Luis
• Ze Roberto

I'd take all five of those players based on a true 3 year career peak over Branco in a heartbeat - actually four I always get sides confused. They all really have better resumes overall and more impressive careers and to be frank were more fun to research as well. They just don't have a singular silly "shiny game" that can get rolled out and re-used every time.

 

[Enigma_87]

Awesome job creating that England team @oneniltothearsenal . The only negative is if you could've incorporated Shearer somehow, although I perfectly understand Greaves leading the line.

You pretty much nailed it, can't see a better attempt at all time English side.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Awesome job creating that England team @oneniltothearsenal . The only negative is if you could've incorporated Shearer somehow, although I perfectly understand Greaves leading the line.

You pretty much nailed it, can't see a better attempt at all time English side.

Thanks Enigma. If I got drawn against Moby I was going to start Shearer instead of Greaves as I felt he matched up better against Moby's defenders and I was *tentatively* planning a 442 against Pat if I drew him in the first round with Keegan involved somehow - that would have been odd as I was debating Charlton out on the left wing for that 442

 

[Tuppet]

I don't disagree @oneniltothearsenal , and I took some time deciding between Felipe Luis / Chagas / Everaldo & Branco. I Just wanted someone more attacking on left side to balance D. Santos and I believe both Marinho & Felipe Luis were more defensive than I want (or I just don't know enough about them). I also realized that it wouldn't matter who I pick if I draw you with Matthews or Pat with Messi, both are good enough to beat any of these left backs and have acknowledged that in the thread as well. I just got sloppy while drafting leaving it too late to get Junior, thinking Moby won't need him and definitely got lucky here with a very close score line against your excellent side.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

I don't disagree @oneniltothearsenal , and I took some time deciding between Felipe Luis / Chagas / Everaldo & Branco. I Just wanted someone more attacking on left side to balance D. Santos and I believe both Marinho & Felipe Luis were more defensive than I want. I also realized that it wouldn't matter who I pick if I draw you with Matthews or Pat with Messi, both are good enough to beat any of these left backs and have acknowledged that in the thread as well. I just got sloppy while drafting leaving it too late to get Junior, thinking Moby won't need him and definitely got lucky here with a very close score line against your excellent side.

Ah that's fair, I didn't think would Moby pick Junior later for CM role either. Thought he was trying a different tactic than what he used. Felipe Luis is probably more solid defensively but Marinho was definitely attacking enough though and probably the best balance. Its tough with Brazil as you have a wealth of options mostly everywhere except really for CB and defensively sound FB - after Santos'.