This is a question I don't think I have seen discussed here. If you wanted to put a player in front of the back four with the sole purpose of breaking down the opponents attacks who would it be? Rijkaard is generally seen as the best all-round DM here but he never played particularly well against Maradona.
The All-TIme DM with the best defensive ability
- Thread starter Physiocrat
- Start date
Keane
Pogba
Makelele
Voronin had shown himself quite competent of closing down pretty much anyone bar Pelé.
Desailly is obviously another choice.
It's hard to find pure DMs though. It's usually either pure man-markers that rarely showed all-time quality overall (Stiles etc.) or box-to-box midfielders in elder years/special circumstances (Schweiny, Keane, Matthäus...).
Funnily enough Capello, I think, said that he'd rather have Redondo if he needed DM to just defend and Rijkaard if he needed a more expansive player there.
Desailly is obviously another choice.
It's hard to find pure DMs though. It's usually either pure man-markers that rarely showed all-time quality overall (Stiles etc.) or box-to-box midfielders in elder years/special circumstances (Schweiny, Keane, Matthäus...).
Funnily enough Capello, I think, said that he'd rather have Redondo if he needed DM to just defend and Rijkaard if he needed a more expansive player there.
Yeah, I was thinking of Voronin as he dealt with Eusebio well. Desailly also came to mind. I didn't know Capello rated Redondo higher at DM than Rijkaard.
Florian Albert as well at the same tournament – at the peak of his form.
Capello said:
A bit of a weird one. I think we've discussed it and it may be that it has more to Redondo being more of a holding midfielder that naturally keeps the shape better and Rijkaard, by nature, was a box-to-box (although you can limit him to a defensive role as well).
Right Voronin wins it then.
Why are the all-time XIs always so odd? It's like Capello went anti-Pep and had just one midfielder. On Rijkaard I think you're right about the holding vs B2B angle
This fella wins
Matthäus
Maradona himself always says that Matthäus was by far the best rival/opponent he faced and Matthäus was simply superb in the 1990 WC, where he also completely took Maradona out of the game.
Top-15 player of all time without doubt in my opinion.
Maradona himself always says that Matthäus was by far the best rival/opponent he faced and Matthäus was simply superb in the 1990 WC, where he also completely took Maradona out of the game.
Top-15 player of all time without doubt in my opinion.
Makelele. The most underrated player in real life and in drafts too.
The draft community here anyways doesn't recognize DMs who can't pass as well unless they are Desailly.
The draft community here anyways doesn't recognize DMs who can't pass as well unless they are Desailly.
Was he really that good defensively? I remember thinking he was really overrated at the time although that might be due to his limited passing range.
I rate him very highly defensively. Defensive mainstay in multiple teams that could have a say in the greatest teams of all time.
In recent times, Fernandinho was a massive part of City's success. They seemed to lose whenever he didn't play when they were at their peak.
He was actually underrated with passing. Chris Coleman actually put a man marking job of him as his main tactic to nullify us (and it worked as Fulham won 1-0).
"Chris Coleman’s Fulham was one of few teams able to isolate and stifle Makelele’s ability. After defeating Chelsea 1-0 at Craven Cottage in March 2006, Coleman referred to Makelele as the focal point of Chelsea’s attacking setup. Fulham focused their attacks out wide, man-marked Makelele and interrupted the passing channels that the Frenchman thrived on.
Exposed, Mourinho was forced to pull Mikel Essien further back to assist Makelele for a string of games, weakening their attacking fluidity. Chelsea still ran away with the title but it confirmed that their midfielder stalwart was only human after all."
Article here
Marcel Desailly
Interesting will have a read. My initial thought though was that Chelsea's CBs lacked passing range so they needed Makelele as the outball to build attacks rather than Makelele being particularly good at passing.
Makelele for me as well if purely looking at a defensive point of view. Criminally underrated in drafts though.
Desailly would probably be second for me.
Desailly would probably be second for me.
I was mocked for picking him in an all-time PL draft 5 years ago. Probably rightly so but let's say i could see the true potential whilst the others just laughed at me
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/all-time-premier-league-fantasy-draft.406386/page-39#post-17811037
Imagine Desailly with his sheer physicality would be perhaps the toughest to play against. Quite a few forwards have spoken about how difficult he is to try and find a way past. Think Davids would tick the same boxes. Otherwise rate Mauro Silva highly for his nous.
Desailly for me in pure defensive sense. Then Rijkaard if you are looking at the whole package.
Matthaus when played in that role is right up there and agree with the rest that Makelele is really underrated around here. Limited as he was in some areas he created a position of his own and mastered it at the highest level - Real, Chelsea and the NT.
All things considered I’d still pick Rijkaard and then Matthaus. Desailly rounds the top 3 for me.
Matthaus when played in that role is right up there and agree with the rest that Makelele is really underrated around here. Limited as he was in some areas he created a position of his own and mastered it at the highest level - Real, Chelsea and the NT.
All things considered I’d still pick Rijkaard and then Matthaus. Desailly rounds the top 3 for me.
I was mocked for picking him in an all-time PL draft 5 years ago. Probably rightly so but let's say i could see the true potential whilst the others just laughed at me
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/all-time-premier-league-fantasy-draft.406386/page-39#post-17811037
I think Rodri has been a sub standard replacement for him personally and plays a big part in them being so leaky at the back these days.
I guess Kanté might be great for an old-school marker job on an agile, low-center-of-gravity type of playmaker.
Voronin or Davids (something of a defensive B2B too) imo, if we exclude Rijkaard that is. Using Maradona as a stick to beat him with is harsh imo.
If we are including central midfielders then Matthäus or Keane (& Robson too he was brilliant defensively).
Think Makelele is overrated myself. Would place him along the likes of Cambiasso and Mascherano myself.
Rate Deschamps quite highly too.
If we are including central midfielders then Matthäus or Keane (& Robson too he was brilliant defensively).
Think Makelele is overrated myself. Would place him along the likes of Cambiasso and Mascherano myself.
Rate Deschamps quite highly too.
Good shout.
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Did Rijkaard ever find as difficult to play against other low centre of gravity, highly agile dribblers?
Desailly, Rijkaard, Keane & Davids. In that order.
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Wouldn't really say so myself. Seemed to be pretty solid against agile dribblers.
Desailly is the obvious one. Then you have the like of Makelele and Masch. I think Masch is a hell of DM.
Makelele. Hated and was envious of Chelsea team in mid 2000s. Makelele was ahead of Lampard, Cole and Drogba for me
Cambiasso > Mascherano. Offers as much defensively and a lot more overall.
Gennaro Ivan "Rino" Gattuso.
I don't think they're even close defensively. Masch methods of getting the ball from opponent, whether with body shielding or tackling, are imho very special.
Also agreed with Mauro Silva.
DM's in finals of last 20 drafts
1. Pure DMs appear in only 9 finalists out of 20 drafts (40 finalists).
2. Whenever a pure DM who wasn't known to be a good passer as well starts, his team loses. (Only one exception being when both teams sport a pure DM and 1 has to win)
3. Desailly, Zito, M. Silva, Monti - We just don't go beyond that when it comes to pure DMs. (Even Mauro was decent with his passing, but I don't think these teams picked them for his passing)
4. Shame on all of us.
5. I need to get a job.
Daredevil draft - Rijkaard (winner) - Vor0nin (loser)
Virgin draft - Cerezo (winner) - No one (loser)
ATG managers draft - Deschamps (winner) - Voronin (loser)
Fenomeno draft - Voronin (winner) - No one (loser)
Coronavirus Draft - Voronin (winner) - Pirri (loser)
Coropa League - Schweinsteiger (winner) - Desailly (loser)
4 way v2 - Bonhof (winner) - Stielike (loser)
Mike's sheep draft - Schweinsteiger (winner) - Rijkaard (loser)
Draft about nothing - Voronin (winner) - Zito (loser)
Oasis draft - Souness (winner) - Edwards (loser)
Road Trip 2 draft - Edwards/Schweinsteiger (winner) - No one (loser)
B2B draft - Beckenbauer (winner) - Zito (loser)
Ludo draft - No one (winner) - Zito (loser)
Uno draft - Redondo (winner) - Edwards (loser)
Auction draft - Zito (winner) - Mauro Silva (loser)
Stars and Reserves draft - No one (winner) - Mauro Silva (loser)
Sheep draft - Beckenbauer (winner) - Voronin (loser)
Road Trip draft - Edwards (winner) - Desailly (loser)
Roulette draft - Voronin (winner) - Monti (loser)
1. Pure DMs appear in only 9 finalists out of 20 drafts (40 finalists).
2. Whenever a pure DM who wasn't known to be a good passer as well starts, his team loses. (Only one exception being when both teams sport a pure DM and 1 has to win)
3. Desailly, Zito, M. Silva, Monti - We just don't go beyond that when it comes to pure DMs. (Even Mauro was decent with his passing, but I don't think these teams picked them for his passing)
4. Shame on all of us.
5. I need to get a job.
Daredevil draft - Rijkaard (winner) - Vor0nin (loser)
Virgin draft - Cerezo (winner) - No one (loser)
ATG managers draft - Deschamps (winner) - Voronin (loser)
Fenomeno draft - Voronin (winner) - No one (loser)
Coronavirus Draft - Voronin (winner) - Pirri (loser)
Coropa League - Schweinsteiger (winner) - Desailly (loser)
4 way v2 - Bonhof (winner) - Stielike (loser)
Mike's sheep draft - Schweinsteiger (winner) - Rijkaard (loser)
Draft about nothing - Voronin (winner) - Zito (loser)
Oasis draft - Souness (winner) - Edwards (loser)
Road Trip 2 draft - Edwards/Schweinsteiger (winner) - No one (loser)
B2B draft - Beckenbauer (winner) - Zito (loser)
Ludo draft - No one (winner) - Zito (loser)
Uno draft - Redondo (winner) - Edwards (loser)
Auction draft - Zito (winner) - Mauro Silva (loser)
Stars and Reserves draft - No one (winner) - Mauro Silva (loser)
Sheep draft - Beckenbauer (winner) - Voronin (loser)
Road Trip draft - Edwards (winner) - Desailly (loser)
Roulette draft - Voronin (winner) - Monti (loser)
@GodShaveTheQueen TBF I always look for a DM who can pass reasonable well as it aids counters as well as in a possession game - also just really don't like CMs who can't pass forwards. I always called Makelele the crab because all he would do is go backwards or sideways. That maybe an unfair characterisation but it's what I remember him for
Its not just you, its the same with everyone evidently. We are all obsessed with what our team can do on the ball more often than not. Probably not how it works in real life most of the time.
I've tried making teams focused on defensive attributes first and it just doesn't come off well in drafts at all.
Yea, that works only if you build a back 5 without a dedicated DM. The Maradona-Scirea template.
I think it's more about your main role, isn't it? Zito was great on the ball.
Voronin was a defensive midfielder – and one of the rare "pure" ones, although also capable of playing the role of a box-to-box and CB. Matthäus was mainly a roaming b2b. Rijkaard was probably most natural as a box-to-box, albeit a lot more defensive one (there are some similarities with Keane in that)... although he's somewhere in between.
The criteria should be – if you're building a team to maximise all the best qualities of this one player, which role would he play? I'd put a slightly more reserved playmaker (Suarez/Scholes?) next to Rijkaard and put him as a b2b. Voronin goes as the deepest midfielder without a question. I'd think a bit more about Redondo & Stielike, although they don't fit this thread's requirements.
Voronin seems to be the flavor of recent drafts!