The Americas Draft, R1: Enigma/Joga vs Gio 7-4

[Chesterlestreet]

TEAM ENIGMA/JOGA

Tactics and formation:
4-2-3-1 - rather modern incarnation - 4 man backline - Zito DM, Veron deep playmaker, Kempes in industrious AM/SS mode, Morena as a CF and Garrincha/Sosa as wide forwards.
- Normal defensive line
- Fast tempo, direct passing
- Zanetti/Branco in balanced roles - Branco slightly more attacking, Zanetti providing more defensive cover for Garrincha to do his thing

Team Profiles:

GK: Ladislao Mazurkiewicz - one of the best keepers in the draft. Most would rank him somewhere in between Carizzo and Fillol for the top 3 spots in his position. At club level he won it all - Copa Libertadores, Intercontinental Cup, 3 times Uruguayan Championship and 1 time Brazilian Championship, he also is the best GK in Uruguay history winning the 1970 FIFA world cup award as a best keeper of the tournament and 1 Copa America to his name, whilst still holding the clean sheet record in the Uruguayan league. Great at organizing the defence, top reflexes and huge leap he was one of the most all rounded keepers of all time.


DL: Branco - Pretty much has the characteristics of every top Brazil full back over the years - fast, can carry the ball well, excellent technique and cross in the box and a great left peg that is always dangerous on set pieces. He's also solid defensively and vividly known for his job on one of the trickiest and fastest forwards - Overmars in the 94 WC quarter finals - where he marked him off the game, all whilst scoring a stunning FK winner on the other end of the pitch. He was first choice left back for brazil in the late 80's, early 90's gaining 72 caps and winning 1 Copa America and the 94 WC.


DR: Javier Zanetti - along with Djalma Santos, Cafu and Carlos Alberto - he's one of the best in the history of his position. Industrious, great technique and rock solid defensively especially in his later years. He's the perfect foil for Garrincha and gives him the ideal tactical platform and freedom in this game.


DC: Diego Godin - The standout defender of the last 5-6 years, he's the bedrock of Atletico's rearguard and had a significant part in breaking the Barca/Real duopoly in recent years, winning the La Liga after a great match against one of the most renowned sides in history. 2 CL finals on top of that coming against a wide range of class attackers such as Messi, Ronaldo, Neymar, Suarez who rank pretty high in history themselves. On top of his accomplishments Godin is a top notch defensive leader, equally adept in the air and on the deck.


DC: Atilio Ancheta - The Uruguayan centre-back is famed for his feats in the 1970 WC, where he was the best defender of the miserly Uruguayan 1970 side which didn't concede a single goal, till the tightly fought semi-finals against one of the greatest sides ever in Brazil. Labelled as "one of the world's best defenders" by the FIFA WC technical study, he made the Team of the Tournament alongside Carlos Alberto, Facchetti and Beckenbauer; that WC had it's fair share of great defenders with the likes of Schnellinger, Moore, Chumpitaz, Shesternyov, Schulz, Vogts and Burgnich failing to make the cut. The athletic, dependable and agile defender who was also good in the air won 3 Uruguayan championships, 1 Copa Libertadores and a Bola de Ouro in a star studded Brazilian league. He has good understanding with Mazurkiewicz - playing in the national team in that very 1970 side.


DM: Zito - one of the most accomplished players in the game. Winner of 2 WC titles, close to 20 titles in Brazil with Santos, 2 Copa Libertadores and 2 International cups, he is part of those 2 Brazil teams in 1958 and 1962(with Garrincha the other member of out team). Zito was one man engine in that team, playing alongside Didi, setting the stage for him and mopping around having the lion's share of the defensive work in that midfield. He's also very good technically, especially in his short passing game and could retain possession very well and participate in the build up. Man for the occasion as well - scored one of his three goals in the 1962 final against Czechoslovakia.


MC(Playmaker): Juan Sebastian Veron - Didn't work for him in England (although we saw his genius in the CL), but in Italy he was a beast. One of the best passers(long and short) in the game since the 90's. He wasn't afraid to get stuck and and had a great shot on him as well. His vision and playmaking skills would come in handy as he'll be our main orchestra in the middle of the park.


LWF: Ruben Sosa - Complete attacker that could play anywhere up front he was the star of the Copa America 1989 (Player of the Tournament) where he played on the left in a really exciting Uruguayan team with Francescoli and Paz. Best remembered for his solo goal in the game against Argentina(scored the opener before that as well). He was a force to be reckoned with in the Serie A, when it was at its heyday, and boasted a fantastic tally of 44 goals in 76 games for Inter at his peak.

Best described:

He was, in fact, one of the swiftest sprinters with sudden outbursts of speed that left his markers dumbfounded. How such a stiff and top-heavy person could transform into such an act of balanced grace still remains a mystery. He was forever ready to skim over a cushion of air. Sosa is best remembered for his image of speeding down the left wing, with his trunk slightly forward, his head erect, like a trotter racing down the homestretch.

Sosa will be taking defenders on his favorite left flank, and also be one of our goal scoring threats along with Kempes, Morena and Garrincha. An excellent finisher himself he will provide even more to our game in the attacking third.
Full profile worth a read


RWF: Garrincha - a true phenomenon and widely regarded as the best dribbler in history. He was the driving force behind Brazil's triumph at the 1962 WC title where he won the Golden Ball and the Golden Boot. If Maradona elevated his team to the 1986 triumph so too did Garrincha after he took on the mantle of Seleção's talisman with Pele injured early on. Speed, explosiveness, trickery, incisiveness - he was a freak of nature and one of the top tier players of all time.


AM/SS: Mario Kempes - Yet another WC Golden Boot and Golden Ball winner in our side, Kempes was really an unorthodox attacker. He was a hard worker who started his moves from deep and often bewildered defenders with his blistering bursts into the box which made him really tough to mark. El Matador is also widely regarded as the greatest player to don the jersey of Los Che and his record in La Liga and Europe speaks volumes. He'll be playing his best role here - centrally, contributing in both ends but also providing a goal threat with late runs in the box and playing off Morena like both did at Valencia.


FC: Fernando Morena - taken from Anto description:
Right foot, left foot (leftie), volleys, lobs, scissors-kicks, headers, free kicks, penos, the man was an absolute goal machine. And if the goalie saved, he was first to the rebound. A game was never complete without the customary goal from Nando.Career ratio: 0.85 gpg, ranked 4th highest ever worldwide (IFFHS)

- 7 x Top scorer in the Uruguayan league (6 consecutively in 73-78)
- All-time league scorer in Uruguay: 230 in 244
- All-time top scorer in a league season: 36/22 (record was 33/22 for 42 years, he got 34/22, then 36 in 22 three years later)
-Thrice Copa Libertadores top scorer
-2nd highest Copa Libertadores top scorer of all time
- Highest number of goals in a league game: 7

Link to the fascinating story narrated by our resident SA poster:
Fernando Morena - Profile 1
Fernando Morena - Profile 2

Why we will win:
Garrincha vs Gio's left back - looking at the team Gio doesn't have a designated left back. Most likely he'll use Gambetta there, who will not be in his best role and either way it's hard to have a designated marker to deal with Garrincha alone. He would wreak havoc in Gio's defensive line and is our main threat and route to goal, with the trio of Morena, Kempes and Sosa posing an immense goal threat.


Solid defensive core - Zanetti, Godin and Anchetta are one of the better pure defenders in a more attacking oriented pool, having the perfect balance of one defensive leader - Godin (or two counting Zanetti), Zanetti providing solid support for Garrincha on the right flank and Godin and Ancheta - two no-nonsense center backs excellent both in the air and on the ground, shielded by one of the most accomplished DM in the game - Zito.


Flexible and well balanced attack - our attacking game is predominantly based on Sosa, Garrincha, Kempes and Morena. Morena gives us the focal point to our attacks either via his aerial ability and predatory finishing whilst he is capable of great link-up play and opening up spaces with his movement off the ball for Kempes, Sosa or Garrincha to run into. Garrincha and his wing wizardry will engage more than one opponent and one can expect him to assert his dominance on the right flank. Sosa is pretty direct and provides a penetrative and explosive threat from outside the box with his pace and dribbling ability, while Kempes with his unorthodox movement and unpredictable game will make it hard for opposition defenders and DM to keep track.

​

 

[Chesterlestreet]

​

TEAM GIO

TACTICS

Arguably South American football is best defined by the creative genius of its greatest attackers, its swashbuckling wing-backs and its gritty no-nonsense pragmatists invariably at the base of most of the truly great sides. This 4-2-3-1 seeks to blend together those elements here.

The defence is rock solid marshalled by two World Cup winning captains. Jose Nasazzi is clearly the star turn and whose record of achievement at the international level - winning the 1924 and 1928 Olympics, the 1930 World Cup and four Copa Americas is unparalleled. In amongst the goal-fest of the 1950s, Nasazzi's athletic and imposing partner Bellini kept four consecutive clean sheets en route to success in 1958. They stand in front of the best keeper in the world in 2008/09 and 2009/10 in Julio Cesar. The full-backs are another World Cup winner Schubert Gambetta on the left and Brazilian '82 dynamo Leandro on the right. Gambetta in particular was defensively robust but both were slick ball-carriers and will help us to turn defence into attack down the flanks.

The centre of the park pairs the defensively immaculate Mauro Silva with the under-stated Jamie Pizarro. Mauro Silva will be tasked with dealing with Mario Kempes if the Argentine is playing off the striker and, having quelled the likes of Zidane, Figo and Bergkamp in the past, is a good fit to get to grips with him here. Considered the best defensive midfielder in the world in 1987/88 by France Football, el Kaiser Pizarro was probably second only to Rijkaard in that era in his midfield organisation, astute positioning, defensive diligence and telling use of the ball. Both will be positionally reserved to both provide the platform for the attack in front of them and enable the defensive space to be well covered during any transitions.

The attacking trio is brimming with quality combining the one-on-one devastation of Ronaldinho alongside one of Argentina's all-time greatest in Adolfo Pedernera and the all-round class and contribution of Zizinho at inside-right. The three will generally be too hot to handle for most opposition defensive units. Leading the line and profiting from that plentiful supply is the top scorer in Argentine history, the acrobatic, technically gifted and deadly Arsenio Erico.

WHY WE WILL WIN:

- The attacking midfield trio offer too much quality to be stopped. Even moreso with one of the greatest South American goalscorers Erico on the end of things.
- More graft and clearer defensive positioning in the midfield core. Mauro Silva, Pizarro, Pedernera and Zizinho will all contribute in off-the-ball recovery. Pizarro has spent a season at left wing-back and excels at covering onto the left flank. He will be able to provide support to cut the supply to Garrincha and the likes of Zizinho and Pedernera can drop into pockets of space in front of midfield to further prevent any phases of play from developing. That unit can work across the park off the ball and squeeze out anything from developing in wide areas. Crucially if Enigma/Joga lead with Veron and Zito in midfield I can see them getting potentially overloaded by that attacking trio. Zizinho will keep an eye on Branco advancing but should be well placed to get the better of him going forward.
- Rock solid core comprised of World Cup winning captains Nasazzi and Bellini, as well as World Cup winners Mauro Silva and Schubert Gambetta. All were absolutely pivotal in those respective successes playing disciplined roles.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

@Enigma_87 @Joga Bonito @Gio

Best of luck, gents.

Enigma/Joga: On closer inspection the Sosa quote you mentioned seems to be missing from the PM: As in, I can't see it in the text you sent at all. Have a look and let me know.

 

[Enigma_87]

@Enigma_87 @Joga Bonito @Gio

Best of luck, gents.

Enigma/Joga: On closer inspection the Sosa quote you mentioned seems to be missing from the PM: As in, I can't see it in the text you sent at all. Have a look and let me know.

Thanks Chester for setting it up.

Here is the quote:

He was, in fact, one of the swiftest sprinters with sudden outbursts of speed that left his markers dumbfounded. How such a stiff and top-heavy person could transform into such an act of balanced grace still remains a mystery. He was forever ready to skim over a cushion of air. Sosa is best remembered for his image of speeding down the left wing, with his trunk slightly forward, his head erect, like a trotter racing down the homestretch.

please add it below best described: Thanks!

and of course, good luck @Gio !

 

[Moby]

Gio's front four!

Shouldn't Nasazzi be on the right though?

 

[Gio]

All the best gents and let's enjoy a full and fair appreciation of our South American boys.

 

[Gio]

Gio's front four!

Shouldn't Nasazzi be on the right though?

I thought I'd pair the Uruguayans and the Brazilians together. Plus if you're used to defending against five-man attacks in the era of back twos, you're going to be flexible in covering all that space, so it wasn't a biggie where he went. But yeah you're right he could go there.

 

[Enigma_87]

I thought I'd pair the Uruguayans and the Brazilians together. Plus if you're used to defending against five-man attacks in the era of back twos, you're going to be flexible in covering all that space, so it wasn't a biggie where he went. But yeah you're right he could go there.

Probably to come against Garrincha and cover for Gambetta? From what I've know of Nasazzi he used to play as a side back occasionally but on the right side, same for Gambetta - he's very versatile and played all over midfield as well, but isn't he a right back as well?

That was probably the only question mark we had in your line up as there wasn't a natural left back per say when we tried to come up with a predicted line up

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Both sides look pretty damn good at first glance.

Looking forward to the discussion.

 

[Gio]

looking at the team Gio doesn't have a designated left back.

Schubert Gambetta
World Cup winning full-back and one of the strongest in the continent's history. Often selected in Uruguayan all-time XIs, he and Victor were interchangeable on both flanks (even switching during the 'final' in 1950). Famed for his dribbling and ball-carrying abilities, he was also a solid defender:

In contrast to Brazil, their defence was their strength; Maspoli was the tournament's best goalkeeper, Tejera was a limpet-like marker, Varela was dominant at centre-half and the half-backs Gambetta and Andrade could tackle.

Certainly that Uruguay team were all about their resolute defence in the face of huge pressure. Schiaffino and Ghiggia were great outlets going forward, but otherwise it was about the important art of defending against some seriously classy Brazilians.

El Mono's greatest claim to fame (other than being a WC winner) is that the generic term used for dribbling is named after him throughout South America: dribble = gambeta. It's not like he invented it, others had been dribbling for decades, but him being a fullback, he would do it at full pelt as he advanced down the wing. There were already terms being used for different ways of dribbling which described the shapes of these -rather static- tricks. Gambetta's slalom runs mixing up all sorts of dribbles became known as "gambetear".

Certainly competent on both flanks to the point where he features at left-back in anto's all-time Uruguay XI.

Uruguay:

Mazurkiewicz
Nasazzi----Santamaria
Andrade-------Varela-------Gambetta
Scarone---Rocha---Schiaffino
Morena---Francescoli
​

Tells you the whole story when the only player I can realistically pick from the last couple of decades is Enzo

 

[Enigma_87]

Yeah I also followed Anto's comments on Gambetta in the all time fantasy draft.

Here are some of his quotes on Gambetta and also his view on that WC final:

Gambetta was a good rightback and, in fact, the one the dribble is named after in South America (gambeta). His classic runs piling up rivals are referred to as "gambetear" to this day. However, he had spent the first half of the tourno messing about and acting as the official team photographer (he was a character), which may have contributed to him having an absolute mare against Sweden. With Zizinho starting on his side and Zizinho-to-Ademir being a proven devastatingly effective route to goal, things looked ominous. So Uruguay surprised Brazil on the day by starting Rodríguez Andrade on the right and Gambetta on the left.

Within five minutes though, the entire issue was sorted. The first or second time Zizinho gets the ball Víctor puts in one of those skeleton-busting tackles which are honest but dare you to try what dishonesty could be like. Zizinho didn't want to, and was largely anonymous for most of the game. Ever since then it has been a tried and tested stratagem, culminating in 1986 when Batista forgot the honest part of it and got himself into the record books as the fastest sending off in WC history. To make it an even more spectacular fail, Gordon XXX wasn't someone who would stop playing as a result.

But I digress. As the game progressed it was increasingly clear that Gambetta was fully focused and having a good game, but being on the left was occasionally presenting him some challenges. Still, Brazil was looking far more dangerous on the left, while Víctor's talent was getting pissed away on the right... So they swapped back. The odd thing was Brazil then swapped Zizinho and Jair. It has never been clear whether it was to keep Andrade away from Jair or because as soon as they swapped Gambetta tried to make a point to Zizinho and actually slid through him (Zizinho had been injured earlier in the WC and keeping people away from injury was important given no subs at the time). Or it may be a coincidence, feck knows, Jair wasn't one to follow tactical instructions anyway. Once Brazil scored he was supposedly asked to drop deep and help out his teammates who were struggling to contain Ghiggia. Apparently the instruction "didn't reach him".

This one is from another game of the draft pointing out one Andrade from the other, as every other game that one of them features

José. Uruguay played pretty much the exact same formation with both Andrades though, the difference is a stylistic one in that Victor was more defensively focused (as opposed to Gambetta, whose name is today the common term for dodge in South America, i.e. gambetear = to dodge).

Most of other sources also list Gambetta always on the right flank and not on the left. The move in that final was a "tactical surprise" but - and according to Anto as well he was feeling uncomfortable there and they switched throughout the game.

 

[MounchesterUtd]

Really like the look of Enigma/Joga's team

Zanetti - Garrincha

 

[Enigma_87]

The reason why I point to Gambetta as a main point is because our best attacking player - and IMO the best attacking player on the pitch - is coming through the right against maybe Gio's weakest spot in defence - the left back.

With Gambetta playing in his uncomfortable zone and also designated to carry the ball and provide width and attacking contribution it's a clear route to goal and Garrincha will have a lot of joy there.

 

[Gio]

My point on Gambetta/Andrade was they were interchangeable and their deployment depended on what they came up against. In the 1950 final, they used Andrade's power to basically do Zizinho early on, as was the normal way of things at the time. They later switched Andrade and Gambetta and the only goal Brazil scored was actually from Andrade's man. We know that Gambetta was 'fully focused and having a good game' on the left and we know that Uruguay produced one of the great defensive performances of all time in that final.

I think ultimately there is not much stronger evidence to confirm that Gambetta was good on the left rather than a defender playing at left-back in a World Cup Final no less and getting chosen in our resident Uruguayan fanatic's all-time XI at left-back.

 

[harms]

By the way, not that it should influence anyone's vote (we all know pretty much everything about Zanetti's level and style of play), but I found it not so long ago and I have to say that I hadn't remembered this piece of skill - and against three of the best defensive players in history, no less

Spoiler

 

[Enigma_87]

My point on Gambetta/Andrade was they were interchangeable and their deployment depended on what they came up against. In the 1950 final, they used Andrade's power to basically do Zizinho early on, as was the normal way of things at the time. They later switched Andrade and Gambetta and the only goal Brazil scored was actually from Andrade's man. We know that Gambetta was 'fully focused and having a good game' on the left and we know that Uruguay produced one of the great defensive performances of all time in that final.

I think ultimately there is not much stronger evidence to confirm that Gambetta was good on the left rather than a defender playing at left-back in a World Cup Final no less and getting chosen in our resident Uruguayan fanatic's all-time XI at left-back.

Well to be fair Anto IMO was fan of his attacking game - from the examples above and IMO didn't rate him that much defensively - putting him in a more of a wing back left position with Varela sitting in front of Santamaria/Nasazzi to make a solid core.

I'm not sure Gambetta is the best choice of dealing with Garrincha, especially with Ronaldinho in front of him. Ronaldinho won't track his man or get back and IMO Pizzaro/Silva will have their hands full in the middle of the park and occupied by Kempes/Veron - both of which can stuck in and participate in the defensive end.

There's another point to add as well. Garrincha is not the traditional right forward that always cuts inside - on the contrary - his trademark feint and bursting through the wing is something that a right footed player will always find a bit more uncomfortable hence making it a bit easier when taking Gambetta on.

 

[Gio]

By the way, not that it should influence anyone's vote (we all know pretty much everything about Zanetti's level and style of play), but I found it not so long ago and I have to say that I hadn't remembered this piece of skill - and against three of the best defensive players in history, no less

Spoiler

Yeah, a lot of love here for Zanetti. Exceptional going forward, not that we'll see much of it here given Garrincha's role, but I shall not be saying anything bad about the boy.

Obviously I would still fancy Ronaldinho to cause loads of problems. At his peak there were few if any better in manipulating the ball in tight spaces. And he has left pretty much every great defender from the 2000s grasping at thin air at some point.

Spoiler

5.36 for a wee snippet against Zanetti, Cambiasso and Milito[/quote]

 

[Gio]

Well to be fair Anto IMO was fan of his attacking game - from the examples above and IMO didn't rate him that much defensively - putting him in a more of a wing back left position with Varela sitting in front of Santamaria/Nasazzi to make a solid core.

That's open to interpretation.

From all accounts Gambetta was an all-rounder who shone in Uruguay's defensive 4-1-2-3 set-up they adopted in 1950. As per the quote above, he 'could tackle' and he was a critical part in one of the greatest defensive performances of all time, keeping a clean sheet for his flank during the course of the match. Here's a lift from another forum who seems to have some digging around his style of play:

What I read about him is from many sources mate, mainly from the ratings and narrations of El País. From what I could watch him seems me a technically very skilled wing-back, fast and very good marking.

I'm also impressed by his regularity, he's described as a young star since he had 20 and was a figure of "El Quinquenio de Oro" of Nacional alongside legendary players of that era as Aníbal Paz and Atilio García.

Anyway let's not drag this out forever, we've put forward our cases. Plenty to talk about elsewhere.

 

[Enigma_87]

That's open to interpretation.

From all accounts Gambetta was an all-rounder who shone in Uruguay's defensive 4-1-2-3 set-up they adopted in 1950. As per the quote above, he 'could tackle' and he was a critical part in one of the greatest defensive performances of all time, keeping a clean sheet for his flank during the course of the match. Here's a lift from another forum who seems to have some digging around his style of play:

Well it is but also the bolded one.

As per Anto again - he had a mare in the game against Sweden where Uruguay conceded 2 goals, they conceded 2 against Spain in the previous fixture and the last game is the aforementioned against Brazil. In the first group they played only one game - against Bolivia as France withdrew.

All decent sources I could find - transfermarkd, etc list him as right back and all rankings top 100 etc full backs list him on the right. In a game where his defensive solidity might not be of such significance he might get away with it, but here he is up against the best right winger in the history of the game. He's also tasked for providing width and attacking contribution which stresses on the point even more.

On the flip side - Ronaldinho, probably the best attacker in your side comes against Zanetti who is probably one of the most solid right backs defensively in the pool(the other Djalma Santos) while playing a more tucked in balanced role which is a great way to counter that threat.

BTW from the formation graph it looks like you are playing a higher defensive line or is it just me?

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Not exactly on topic, but I just noticed that the attendance for the Uruguay-Sweden match in '50 is listed as 8000 - which seems ridiculously low: It was played at the Pacaembu in Sao Paulo which hosted several other matches, including the group stage match between Sweden and Italy. The latter drew 50 000, apparently.

Thought it was some sort of typo at first but the same figure appears in several sources - and the attendance for Sweden-Spain, which took place three days after the Uruguay match, was also very low (listed as 11 000). By contrast Uruguay's final round match against Spain drew a crowd of 44 000 (also at the Pacaembu).

Wonder what the story is - has to be an explanation for it.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Re: Gambetta I seem to recall that he used to play across the (then) defensive (more or less) board, i.e. as a fullback and a centre half in addition to (primarily) being a halfback.

He supposedly even did an O'Shea and filled in between the sticks.

Doesn't mean much, of course - but if he was comfortable as a fullback, this adds to his purely defensive credentials, and as Gio points out the '50 team as such (the one they ended up with, that is) was built on a defensively very solid foundation (that custom made "back four" + Varela model).

I can buy the actual argument to some extent, though: If it can be said - reasonably - that he was more comfortable on the right, this is a fair enough point given who he's up against here.

 

[Gio]

All decent sources I could find - transfermarkd, etc list him as right back and all rankings top 100 etc full backs list him on the right. In a game where his defensive solidity might not be of such significance he might get away with it, but here he is up against the best right winger in the history of the game. He's also tasked for providing width and attacking contribution which stresses on the point even more.

I think ultimately there is not much stronger evidence to confirm that Gambetta was good on the left rather than a defender playing well at left-back in a World Cup Final no less against a brilliant Brazilian attack and getting chosen in our resident Uruguayan fanatic's all-time XI at left-back. It's a bit like not believing that Andreas Brehme could do a job on the right of defence because he's listed as one of the greatest left-backs of all time, even though, like Gambetta, he's got good credentials on the other side. Like the Brehme example, I'd be happy to concede that he did much of his best work on the right, but there's no evidence to suggest he's more than capable on the left and has the big-game proof to back it up.

As I said, happy to move on before we bore everyone to death.

 

[Gio]

Not exactly on topic, but I just noticed that the attendance for the Uruguay-Sweden match in '50 is listed as 8000 - which seems ridiculously low: It was played at the Pacaembu in Sao Paulo which hosted several other matches, including the group stage match between Sweden and Italy. The latter drew 50 000, apparently.

Thought it was some sort of typo at first but the same figure appears in several sources - and the attendance for Sweden-Spain, which took place three days after the Uruguay match, was also very low (listed as 11 000). By contrast Uruguay's final round match against Spain drew a crowd of 44 000 (also at the Pacaembu).

Wonder what the story is - has to be an explanation for it.

I wonder if it is anything to do with Brazil playing at the same time. I know the games were in different cities and wouldn't have been freely available to watch as such, but I imagine given the massive crowds and huge public interest in the Selecao, it may have taken priority, even over the wireless.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I wonder if it is anything to do with Brazil playing at the same time.

That could be it - yes.

What's a bit odd, though, is that the immense drop in attendance only occurs after the first match day. Uruguay-Spain was played at exactly the same time as Brazil-Sweden, but the attendance there was normal (44 000).

The interest would have grown towards the "final", though, so that could account for it: By the time of the Uruguay-Sweden match, the locals largely didn't bother to show up (but preferred to listen to the broadcast from Rio instead).

 

[harms]

Re: Gambetta

Carlos Peucelle, a brilliant dribbler of the ball who had played in the 1930 World Cup, remembered, ‘on the other Argentinian wing was Moreno and “Chueco” García. These two, as always, wore out the ball. Besides, they had already gained a fabulous reputation as a wing. They also looked like they had been together all their lives … Nevertheless, the Brazilian newspapers said, about that match, that you have never seen a game like ours, and it wasn’t possible to know which of the two was the winger and who was the wide midfielder. We did it all instinctively.’ Both players had once made such a fool of the great defender Schubert ‘Mono’ (‘ Monkey’) Gambetta that the Uruguayan had to move position to spare his blushes. ‘Have some respect, the gentleman is a musician,’ shouted one to the other.

 

[harms]

Yeah, a lot of love here for Zanetti. Exceptional going forward, not that we'll see much of it here given Garrincha's role, but I shall not be saying anything bad about the boy.

Obviously I would still fancy Ronaldinho to cause loads of problems. At his peak there were few if any better in manipulating the ball in tight spaces. And he has left pretty much every great defender from the 2000s grasping at thin air at some point.

Spoiler

5.36 for a wee snippet against Zanetti, Cambiasso and Milito

Yep, when we talk about comparability this partnership looks like it won't use 100% of Zanetti's skills - I have the same problem with every overlapping fullback with Garrincha tbf. He worked best with Djalma because he never needed help - another body on the flank would only confuse him, probably more so than any other top winger in history.

Still, even we discount most Zanetti's attacking, it's one of the best possible wings in the draft history

 

[Enigma_87]

I think ultimately there is not much stronger evidence to confirm that Gambetta was good on the left rather than a defender playing well at left-back in a World Cup Final no less against a brilliant Brazilian attack and getting chosen in our resident Uruguayan fanatic's all-time XI at left-back. It's a bit like not believing that Andreas Brehme could do a job on the right of defence because he's listed as one of the greatest left-backs of all time, even though, like Gambetta, he's got good credentials on the other side. Like the Brehme example, I'd be happy to concede that he did much of his best work on the right, but there's no evidence to suggest he's more than capable on the left and has the big-game proof to back it up.

As I said, happy to move on before we bore everyone to death.

Well from the formation he looks more of a wing back than a left back, but we digress... I think Anto did a good job explaining and comparing V.Andrade to Gambetta and since they switched places for that final as a surprise it's fairly safe to say he wasn't that comfortable there, hence switching places again throughout the match, and the former being the more solid defensively one. Of course that's up for interpretation and too bad anto isn't around to clarify it all.

I'd take that at this point. IMO our right side has definite advantage in both attacking and defensive phase compared to your left with Zanetti the better defender out of the two, playing in his natural, comfort zone with balanced instructions as Garrincha will take the mantle for the offensive part most of the cases. While on the other hand Garrincha is up against the Gambetta who is tasked with more attacking role to provide width and support the attack where he'll have more space and time on the ball.

As for the other argument - from the look of the formation your defense is playing in a higher line - which IMO plays to our strengths - especially with Sosa utilizing his pace on the wing and scoring a goal like the one against Argentina in the 1989 Copa and Garrincha also having a space to run into.

Besides that - your full backs are suited for a higher line and are comfortable on the ball, but Nasazzi and Bellini are not IMO. They are not that comfortable on the ball and are more suited to deeper defensive line where they can use their physical presence. Mauro Silva and Jaime Pizarro are solid midfielders, but again would struggle to keep a higher pace and IMO the distribution at the back I see a potential problem with. They aren't the most comfortable on the ball and keeping possession - quite different to your attacking quartet.

A higher line IMO also leaves you vulnerable on the break with Leandro and Gambetta instructed to give you width - especially on the right side where Leandro is the only one who can provide natural width.

 

[harms]

About the game - two top-heavy sides. Ronaldinho and especially Zizinho (as it's hard to fit old players in today's formations) look amazing here.

Don't know much about Pizarro. Do you have some more info on him, @Gio? He would be crucial here as without his cover Gambetta would get murdered

btw, is there a particular reason behind playing Zito on the left, @Enigma_87 @Joga Bonito. For Brazil he was mainly a right half iirc, not that he can't play slightly on the left though.

 

[Enigma_87]

About the game - two top-heavy sides. Ronaldinho and especially Zizinho (as it's hard to fit old players in today's formations) look amazing here.

Don't know much about Pizarro. Do you have some more info on him, @Gio? He would be crucial here as without his cover Gambetta would get murdered

btw, is there a particular reason behind playing Zito on the left, @Enigma_87 @Joga Bonito. For Brazil he was mainly a right half iirc, not that he can't play slightly on the left though.

He's pretty balanced, albeit right footed, he could fill the same role as he's a central defensive midfielder. The reason why here is more to the left is because he'll occupy the area where Pedernera and Zizinho would operate. Zizinho is more of an inside right, not a right winger - and Zito there is a great match for him, while the natural width from Gio's right side is expected to come from Leandro.

 

[Enigma_87]

A game against Peru in 1989 - WC qualifier: Sosa ripped them on counter for the first and then after receiving the ball whilst running into the box.

Spoiler: Ruben Sosa - one man show against Peru in WC qualifier

The lad just doesn't have a dull goal.

 

[Gio]

Mauro Silva and Jaime Pizarro are solid midfielders, but again would struggle to keep a higher pace and IMO the distribution at the back I see a potential problem with. They aren't the most comfortable on the ball and keeping possession - quite different to your attacking quartet.

Welcome to South America. There's always been a division between attack and defence in that manner - it's part of the ethos of what I'm attempting to recreate here.

But what you say isn't correct, because Mauro Silva was part of a tremendously slick possession-dominating Deportivo outfit and part of a Brazil team in 1994 that routinely dominated the ball. But moreso because Jamie Pizarro was fantastic on the ball - a class act. They don't coin someone the Kaiser if they can't play. Look at this range of goals and find me a defensive midfielder with a right peg as impressive as that.


Or look at these two passes to show his style of play:

Spoiler

Colo Colo 2-0 Real Madrid (Pizarro scoring the first from the penalty spot)

@harms Pizarro always played as the left-sided central midfielder for Colo Colo and Chile. Colo Colo usually played a narrow formation described by World Soccer as a 2-1-2-2-1-2 IIRC. In that set-up, Pizarro was tasked with covering onto the left hand side when phases of play developed - happy to find a few examples of that specific role later on. He also did a season as a swashbuckling left wing-back for Colo Colo. He was selected for this team ahead of a few more well-known because of that fit and ability to shuttle wide. As well as his quality of course - considered the best defensive midfielder in the world by France Football in 1987/88. Which is a remarkable achievement really given how difficult it would have been to get recognition from a European magazine, never mind while the likes of Rijkaard was in his pomp. In style I'd probably liken him to a Verratti if we wanted a modern day comparison, a Verratti that fulfills his potential of course. Proper leader too, hence the Kaiser nickname, tasked with the pressure situations of penalties and dead balls, captain of Colo Colo's greatest ever team, winning the Copa Libertadores, influential in Chile reaching the Copa America final in 1987 (turning over Brazil 4-0 en route) and coming 3rd in 1991.

a modern and complete defensive midfielder

I'd take that at this point. IMO our right side has definite advantage in both attacking and defensive phase compared to your left with Zanetti the better defender out of the two, playing in his natural, comfort zone with balanced instructions as Garrincha will take the mantle for the offensive part most of the cases.

It's the best right flank in the draft. You lose Zanetti's attacking game both because he is instructed to stay back and because it would be pointless anyway given Garrincha's ball-hogging tendencies. Zanetti has to play with the handbrake on which is a bit of a waste.

@Enigma_87 I'm not playing a high line.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Not sure what to make of Zanetti Garrincha. The muppet side of me loves it, but the more conserved version thinks Zanetti will just be an also ran in this game, Garrincha being the ball hogger that he is ( although one of the finest in history). I think Garrincha gets the better of Gambetta but I think a peak Ronaldinho gets the better of just about anyone including zanetti, and with Pedernera to potentially link up with and the midfield support coming from Veron, I think Gio's left side does just as much damage as Enigma/ Joga's right side.

 

[Enigma_87]

Welcome to South America. There's always been a division between attack and defence in that manner - it's part of the ethos of what I'm attempting to recreate here.

yep - the ball playing CM pool is very small and we have one of the best here in Veron which IMO gives us a bit of an advantage in that sense if we compare the central midfields.

But what you say isn't correct, because Mauro Silva was part of a tremendously slick possession-dominating Deportivo outfit and part of a Brazil team in 1994 that routinely dominated the ball. But moreso because Jamie Pizarro was fantastic on the ball - a class act. They don't coin someone the Kaiser if they can't play. Look at this range of goals and find me a defensive midfielder with a right peg as impressive as that.

They did but that Deportivo side had Valeron, Bebeto, Fran, Djalminha - those who made it tick. Mauro Silva in both formations was with the defensive role - much to what Zito was in those Brazil teams.

It's the best right flank in the draft. You lose Zanetti's attacking game both because he is instructed to stay back and because it would be pointless anyway given Garrincha's ball-hogging tendencies. Zanetti has to play with the handbrake on which is a bit of a waste.

@Enigma_87 I'm not playing a high line.

Zanetti's attacking game was more evident in the earlier parts of his career, but with Garrincha there I don't think we need an overlapping right back - on the contrary he's playing the Djalma role which was a highly successful right flank in those WC's. Zanetti played a lot of balanced roles in his career and is excellent in his defensive game. IMO he's the perfect match for Garrincha(other than Djalma) not only in this draft.

Spoiler: Zanetti vs Messi

Zanetti held his own against some of the very best attackers in the game. He's much more qualified to stand up against Ronaldinho than Gambetta vs Garrincha.

As for the high line - it kinda fools from the formation with the CB's and the full backs more looking as wing backs especially with the arrows up front.

 

[Enigma_87]

Not sure what to make of Zanetti Garrincha. The muppet side of me loves it, but the more conserved version thinks Zanetti will just be an also ran in this game, Garrincha being the ball hogger that he is ( although one of the finest in history). I think Garrincha gets the better of Gambetta but I think a peak Ronaldinho gets the better of just about anyone including zanetti, and with Pedernera to potentially link up with and the midfield support coming from Veron, I think Gio's left side does just as much damage as Enigma/ Joga's right side.

It's pretty much the best option other than Djalma/Garrincha IMO. They won't step on their toes and it's hard to get a better right back when it comes to covering and defensive abilities.

Zanetti is much more solid defensively than Gambetta, while I don't think out wide Ronaldinho(as great as he is) could match the wide threat of Garrincha. With Zito and Veron in the middle we will also narrow the central threat and reduce the option for combination and linking up between them. If Gambetta goes up front that leaves space for Garrincha who is capable of doing some real damage even one on one, not to mention in free space.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

@Gio I spent a lot of time trying to find out as much about Pedernera as possible, but there really isn't much. Anything you have on him, share it in here as by all accounts he appears to be an all time great who never got full recognition due to the period he played. Di Stefano's quotes on him are brilliant.

 

[Gio]

It's pretty much the best option other than Djalma/Garrincha IMO. They won't step on their toes and it's hard to get a better right back when it comes to covering and defensive abilities.

Zanetti is much more solid defensively than Gambetta, while I don't think out wide Ronaldinho(as great as he is) could match the wide threat of Garrincha.

Zanetti was an overlapping full-back though: he was famous for his bursting runs forward. That's what places him in that top tier of full-backs. For a defensively limited brief, Djalma is a more cohesive option, as would be Andrade, or if we open it up to Europeans then Vogts, Thuram or Bergomi. Zanetti is much of an all-rounder of any of these. He'll still do a decent enough job, but it's a long way from maximising his qualities.

 

[harms]

Edging towards Enigma/Joga as of this moment but will come back later before making the final decision.

Gambetta, from what I've read about him, wasn't in Zanetti's class defensively (plus that "musician" quote that I already posted), and he's facing the most threatening opponent that any left back can face, other than Messi. Ronaldinho is probably as devastating 1 on 1 as Garrincha was - well, they both were so good that there weren't any defenders who could say that they had their number, but judging purely on the defender's class I would expect Garrincha to be the more successful in this game.

Erico vs Morena is a brilliant "duel", the greatest South American goalscorers not from BRA/ARG, but I'd give Erico the edge here as he was more inventive, from what I've read about him he resembled Ibrahimovic/van Basten in the way that he scored lots unbelievable goals from impossible situations. Plus he has a better supporting trio (Sosa looks outclassed here, as good as he was) and Nasazzi probably should be rated ahead of Godin, although it's always tough to compare players from a different eras.

 

[Gio]

@Gio I spent a lot of time trying to find out as much about Pedernera as possible, but there really isn't much. Anything you have on him, share it in here as by all accounts he appears to be an all time great who never got full recognition due to the period he played. Di Stefano's quotes on him are brilliant.

There's not a lot out there. I shared this in the main thread but it's slim pickings to be honest. What we do know is that Pedernera was probably the greatest central attacking midfielder in Argentine domestic football history (Bochini is a decent shout there) and despite not getting the reach of Di Stefano in Europe, was a comparable player in quality and style. To be fair I could have renewed his partnership with Labruna here - who was a great goalscorer - but cherry-picking the best 10 and 9 in Erico from the golden age of Argentine football was too much to resist.

The best player I ever saw in my life, was Adolfo Pedernera. Undoubtedly, Maradona was exceptional, fantastic. The best in years. One can not ignore even Pele. But for heaven’s sake, though it is difficult to draw comparisons, Pedernera was a very complete player who could play anywhere on the pitch.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Good luck @Gio

Taking over from Enigma for now

Re: Gambetta

Carlos Peucelle, a brilliant dribbler of the ball who had played in the 1930 World Cup, remembered, ‘on the other Argentinian wing was Moreno and “Chueco” García. These two, as always, wore out the ball. Besides, they had already gained a fabulous reputation as a wing. They also looked like they had been together all their lives … Nevertheless, the Brazilian newspapers said, about that match, that you have never seen a game like ours, and it wasn’t possible to know which of the two was the winger and who was the wide midfielder. We did it all instinctively.’ Both players had once made such a fool of the great defender Schubert ‘Mono’ (‘ Monkey’) Gambetta that the Uruguayan had to move position to spare his blushes. ‘Have some respect, the gentleman is a musician,’ shouted one to the other.

Yep, when we talk about comparability this partnership looks like it won't use 100% of Zanetti's skills - I have the same problem with every overlapping fullback with Garrincha tbf. He worked best with Djalma because he never needed help - another body on the flank would only confuse him, probably more so than any other top winger in history.

Still, even we discount most Zanetti's attacking, it's one of the best possible wings in the draft history

Yeah definitely, with Garrincha you'd much rather have a balanced full-back there as opposed to a buccaneering overlapping full-back. Zanetti was a fine attacking full-back capable of going on overlapping runs but he was a balanced full-back and a fine defender capable of playing a disciplined role. Plenty of examples of him playing defensive roles on the continental stage, esp under Mourinho's CL winning Inter. Only Djalma Santos is better in this role in this pool imo. Here he'd be playing a more balanced and positionally reserved role defensively, which is ideal for our set-up. It gives Garrincha the ideal base to exhibit his wing devilry, gives Branco more freedom to impose himself and of course curtail one of Gio's prime threats in Ronaldinho.


Couple of thoughts on why we'd have the edge here.

As stated earlier, we believe our defensive core matches up fairly well with Gio's excellent, albeit centrally oriented attack. Firstly, arguably the best defensive RB in this pool after D.Santos, Zanetti in his tucked in RCB role on the right is well suited to deal with the trickery and the pace of the incisive Ronaldinho. The Uruguayan central defense of Godín and Ancheta match up stylistically well against the impressive Erico, esp with their credentials aerially. Godín's impressive reading of the game and ability to mop up any 'spare attacker' also comes in handy against Gio's attacking midfield triumvirate. Whilst one of the greatest South American DMs of all time and the best midfielder on the pitch protects the rearguard and squares up against Pedernera. And of course, Branco is arguably the least impressive 'pure defender' in our defensive cast, no doubt, but he doesn't necessarily have a direct match-up as such to worry about, apart from Leandro who will also have to keep an eye on Sosa. Zizinho was an inside right who'd presumably be operating in the inside right channels, sandwiched between Zito and Godín, as illustrated in the formation pics.

On the other hand, I'd say Gambetta, who isn't a specialist left back, has the hardest job on anyone else on the entire pitch trying to contain wing wizard Garrincha, arguably the best player on the pitch. Likewise, Leandro who has been given an attacking remit here, would find it relatively tougher to contain Sosa's explosiveness and incisive runs from the left, with the support of Branco who was an excellent attacking wing-back on his day.

Spoiler: Sosa's solo run

 

[Enigma_87]

I'll leave it to Joga for couple of hours and be back in the evening so he can share his views.