What a cheeky fecker - you don't deal substantively with the criticisms and chuck in some unwarranted ad hominem. Second-rate stuff (like the book).Your fatal flaw is subjective. Doesn't seem to have bothered a lot of folks that read it.
FFSDo you consciously strive to be this pompous, or is just to score points with your foppish quips? So can any book written with characters of dissimilar race, or social/economic status, that doesn't focus on the disadvantaged qualify as ironic rubbish?
Books The BOOK thread
- Thread starter Livvie
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po' white folks; having to struggle with those awful moral issues.
I suppose so. You've gotten snotty with me before and it seems I hold a grudge, which is embarrassing on my part. I need a thicker eSkin to be sure. Your tone just grates on me, but that's my problem. No equivocation, and it's envy from me for such folks that seem so certain.I really didn't see your criticisms as substantive. Felt more like point scoring. Why is it necessarily ironic that a book written about a little white kid and her family deal also with little kid and family issues and not for some reason the turmoils of the black characters?
Your complaint is that the narrative isn't faithful for a kid, yet you expect that same narrative to deal with something as weighty as the racism of the day. How would a first person tale even go about winding itself into the lives of the black folks the wee narrator has so little exposure to? Were the book written from Tom's eye, then it would make sense.
What bruv? We are after all probably the only two people on the caf who've read 'Quiet Flows the Don'. It is a monumental irony that a book tackling race marginalises its black characters (even the guy at the centre of the story is just a cypher) in favour of the white characters and their trials and tribulations.
Yeah, you found it "tumescent" (I remember because I had to look it up). Did you ever see Gerasimov's 5 1/2 hr movie realization? Cracking watch. I got to live around there for a spell and watching it actually took me back.
Oh yeah, I liked "The Map and the Territory" which I think you pointed us to.
Anyway, sure I understand about the irony if you choose to see it that way. Just sorta asking a lot of a little girl. It really reminds me of a chat folks had on here that went flat as soon as I jumped in - https://www.redcafe.net/f13/huckleberry-finn-censored-317710/
There was a well intentioned quote in there from a professor... "The point of the book is that Huckleberry Finn starts out racist in a racist society, and stops being racist and leaves that society." For me though, that's a point of the book, and it's presumptuous to say there's but one. It was certainly about the racism of the day, but for me it's too good a book (better than "To Kill a Mockingbird") to be pigeonholed as "a book about racism". That's a label we've slapped on it from our context. It's also about that funny, American feral fecker that is Huck Finn and his adventures. I guess that's sort of an issue I have with this talk of "To Kill a Mockingbird" not confronting the racism more directly. It's just a novel, and it's ostensibly written by a little white girl thinking little white girl stuff. Nowt wrong with that.
Never been called "bruv" (had to look that up too), or "cheeky fecker". I like them both.
Houllebecq's best book is 'Extension du domaine de la lutte' ('Whatever') also brilliantly filmed by Phillippe Harel. I saw him at a talk in London and asked him to sign 'Atomised' to K, he wrote Kay and then had to scrub out the 'ay' when I pointed out I just meant the initial. He did make a joke about the Kafkaesque nature of the enterprise.
Re: To Kill a Mockingbird, pretty much every book with a child narrator seems inconsistent in its use. I think most authors use the idea of an adult narrator looking back so they can apply an adult's perception whererever it suits them. It was exactly the same in Spies. I agree with brad-dyrak that it's the tone and reflections that matter - I think To Kill a Mockingbird's greatness is all about its portrait of a father figure that's crafted from that.
What was so irritating for me about Spies was the way he uses that child's perspective to describe events through some really annoying metaphors, then proceeds to repeatedly hit you over the head with them in the most unnatural way. Admittedly it's made 10x more annoying by having to study the damn thing, but the whole book is him leading you on the most tedious of routes, dropping giant-sized breadcrumbs to signpost what's really going on. I was told that the opening's one of the best recreations of a certain childhood, but unfortunately that was lost on me.
Salinger's my favourite author, Catcher in the Rye my favourite book, but I think Dan Schneider kind of nails it talking about the cultic quality of his work towards the end of this review (of Nine Stories). I disagree with him over why - Salinger's the best expression of the feelings of never coming to grips with adulthood that I think some people never do grow out of. If you feel like that while reading it, then Catcher is a great book. Eboue talked about maturing and seeing it for what it is, I just haven't experienced that yet. I'd never try to convince anyone else of the greatness of Salinger's writing because it's probably not the case (pretty much all the criticisms in the article, stand, I think) though I do think he is a great observer of people - take the opening of Franny & Zooey with the movements of all the college kids waiting at the station for their dates. But the criticisms of his writing don't seem to matter because of that cultish quality, the personal meaning it has to me, the communication of something I've felt that I might not have been able to articulate, myself. That for me is more what art's about over any kind of objective criticism/ranking of it. Which is maybe a viewpoint I'll grow out of, one day.
What was so irritating for me about Spies was the way he uses that child's perspective to describe events through some really annoying metaphors, then proceeds to repeatedly hit you over the head with them in the most unnatural way. Admittedly it's made 10x more annoying by having to study the damn thing, but the whole book is him leading you on the most tedious of routes, dropping giant-sized breadcrumbs to signpost what's really going on. I was told that the opening's one of the best recreations of a certain childhood, but unfortunately that was lost on me.
Salinger's my favourite author, Catcher in the Rye my favourite book, but I think Dan Schneider kind of nails it talking about the cultic quality of his work towards the end of this review (of Nine Stories). I disagree with him over why - Salinger's the best expression of the feelings of never coming to grips with adulthood that I think some people never do grow out of. If you feel like that while reading it, then Catcher is a great book. Eboue talked about maturing and seeing it for what it is, I just haven't experienced that yet. I'd never try to convince anyone else of the greatness of Salinger's writing because it's probably not the case (pretty much all the criticisms in the article, stand, I think) though I do think he is a great observer of people - take the opening of Franny & Zooey with the movements of all the college kids waiting at the station for their dates. But the criticisms of his writing don't seem to matter because of that cultish quality, the personal meaning it has to me, the communication of something I've felt that I might not have been able to articulate, myself. That for me is more what art's about over any kind of objective criticism/ranking of it. Which is maybe a viewpoint I'll grow out of, one day.
Dammit man, you're making me want to reread "Catcher in the Rye". Nice write up.
Peter, I'll certainly give 'Extension du domaine de la lutte' a go.
You know, this thread is a real pain in the ass. I've got a stack
t
h
i
s
big of books I haven't read yet and you twits keep adding on. I've probably read at least 10 books you lot have thrown at me.
Peter, I'll certainly give 'Extension du domaine de la lutte' a go.
You know, this thread is a real pain in the ass. I've got a stack
t
h
i
s
big of books I haven't read yet and you twits keep adding on. I've probably read at least 10 books you lot have thrown at me.
I just read The Old Curiosity Shop by Charles Dickens. Very depressing!
Someone just told me that the Stranger in circulation in the US is poorly translated. Has anyone here read the US translation and another translation( or the original)?
If you want really depressing try The Casual Vacancy by J.K. Rowling. I was so looking forward to this book to see what she could do for "adults" and it's about as far from the Harry Potter universe as it can be (which I realise she had to do). However, it is full of unlikeable people doing unlikeable things and I wish I had not bothered giving it a try. I didn't care about any of the characters at all and it was very disappointing.
I'll swerve that one then.
On a brighter note, I'm currently about 100 pages into Cloud Atlas by David Mitchell and I'm thoroughly enjoying it.
Have started reading Peter Robinson's Inspector Banks series, there are 20 of them and I'm currently on book 4, the early ones were written in the late 80's and set in the Yorkshire Dales area, I'm enjoying them to be honest, they wouldn't be as gritty as some British crime authors such as Val McDirmid and Ian Rankin but I will say that Robinson has a great eye for detail.
Taking a break from Peter Robinson to read Clive Barker's 'Imajica' I'm only about 10% in to the first part of The Fifth Dominion but so far I love it, I really liked Barker's 'Weaveworld' and this is similar in as such that it is fantasy set in a modern setting, anyone else read this? what did you think of it?
Got this for my birthday last year and didn't read it before a year later. Should've read it right away - but then again, it helped me through this summer. Absolutely loved it.
The end smashed me, even after the spoilers in the first few pages. Had no idea about the POV beforehand and got really gripped by the concept. Loved the characters
The great Hilary Mantel wins the Booker Prize...again!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/oct/16/hilary-mantel-wins-booker-prize
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/oct/16/hilary-mantel-wins-booker-prize
Great achievement.The great Hilary Mantel wins the Booker Prize...again!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/oct/16/hilary-mantel-wins-booker-prize
I couldnt put it down when I started it. Class book.Got this for my birthday last year and didn't read it before a year later. Should've read it right away - but then again, it helped me through this summer. Absolutely loved it.
The end smashed me, even after the spoilers in the first few pages. Had no idea about the POV beforehand and got really gripped by the concept. Loved the characters
Just finished A Clash of Kings book 2 in the game of thrones series. Cant get enough of them yet. On to book 3!!
Currently reading Masters of the Dew by Jacques Roumain. It's all about Marxism and how a small community can benefit from communist ideals. Set in Haiti in the 1940's. Well written even if it doesn't appeal to my particular political tastes.
Was at the Man Booker Prize readings on Monday and she was the most entertaining without being condescending *cough Will Self cough*. I'm merely midway through Wolf Hall at the momentThe great Hilary Mantel wins the Booker Prize...again!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/oct/16/hilary-mantel-wins-booker-prize
Tried 'Bring up the Bodies' and found it totally unreadable. If I want to read some history fine. What I don't want is history turned into wanky historical fiction.
In truth, I found Wolf Hall to be much better than BUTB. I wonder, though, if the two major recent awards the author's won are in effect like the Academy's 'Lifetime Achievement awards'; prizes given to people because their previous, better work was neglected at the time.
Started reading The Book Thief last night, so far in a word....Wow!!!
I just finished 'We' from Zamjatin. It looked very similar to Brave New World and I think that they are at about the same level. Still for me, 1984 beats them as the best dystopian novel
I liked it. I don't feel like I got everything out of it that i should have, so I'm going to reread it one of these days. Soonish.
1984 is an astonishingly over-rated book. It's become one of these things it's cool to like - it's alright, but it's hardly one of the best books ever written.
End of controversial post.
End of controversial post.
I thought 1984 was a great book, one the few books that I've read twice.
I haven't read 1984(!) but perhaps its influence, themes and relevance to modern life counts for more than the matter of its actual literary quality; in this, the novel is rather like Zamyatin's We, ironically enough.
Yes, it's that Steve. In terms of pure literary quality, I find it lacking. Not a bad novel, but not a stunning one either. It deals with themes that have taken on a new relevance today, although not quite to the extent that is often claimed, in my view. It's worth a read though.
Can anyone recommend me a decent Murder Mystery / Crime series with continuing story lines / characters?
Interesting thing is that my like about 1984 drastically increased after some months I read it. Thought is not 'War and Peace', still some of the ideas there are pretty intelligent (like double thinking which I find genius). Definitely is in my Top 10 books and for me much much better than other 2 highly rated dystopian novels.
Strange really, I wouldn't thought that you haven't read it. Definitely worthy.
It was badly taught to me in English Lit. lessons, mate, so I took no interest at the time. Hopefully I'll get to read the book for myself soon though.
Read Holzfällen first, Steve.
Reading the Wiki write-up, it doesn't exactly sound like a barrel of laughs, chief.
EDIT: Having viewed an excerpt, it reads like an outpouring of self-hate (despite appearances); or, at least, Freud's 'hatred of little differences'. The people the narrator loathes remind him of himself.
EDIT: Having viewed an excerpt, it reads like an outpouring of self-hate (despite appearances); or, at least, Freud's 'hatred of little differences'. The people the narrator loathes remind him of himself.
Stay away from the Football Forum, Steve!Reading the Wiki write-up, it doesn't exactly sound like a barrel of laughs, chief.
EDIT: Having viewed an excerpt, it reads like an outpouring of self-hate (despite appearances); or, at least, Freud's 'hatred of little differences'. The people the narrator loathes remind him of himself.
But keep on keeping on with Thomas Bernhard.
That would be a 'value judgement' matter, mate.
That would be a 'value judgement' matter, mate.
Personally, I'm reading Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween by RAWK's L6 Red:
'No, don't go 'round to read him tonight,
he's already made such a mess of your life ...'