The breaking of Manchester United

[Tincanalley]

Sir Alex Ferguson is in ways a tragic figure. Brilliant man manager; high end football strategist of a bygone era. Lovable rogue, passionate and inspirational. I still love the old footage of the various triumphant moments - him rushing off the bench after another impossible peak has been conquered. He saw the genius in Cantona, Keane, Giggs; etc; he improved so many others.

Yet his ego and hubris are part of the story of the club’s fall from grace. Until the Glazers depart and a better ownership model is in place there is little prospect of a return to the summit.

 

[Revaulx]

I know, you'll be seeing them next year calling "ETH out" after he finishes 5th.

Oh definitely. "They" will almost invariably be drawn from the worryingly large number of remaining Jose fans who stick their heads over the parapet at moments of particular crisis. A few Ole-inners as well maybe, but they are generally less corrosive.

 

[Revaulx]

Sir Alex Ferguson is in ways a tragic figure. Brilliant man manager; high end football strategist of a bygone era. Lovable rogue, passionate and inspirational. I still love the old footage of the various triumphant moments - him rushing off the bench after another impossible peak has been conquered. He saw the genius in Cantona, Keane, Giggs; etc; he improved so many others.

Yet his ego and hubris are part of the story of the club’s fall from grace. Until the Glazers depart and a better ownership model is in place there is little prospect of a return to the summit.

Sorry but I don't accept that at all. It's been the best part of a decade since he retired, there's very little evidence that he's "done a Sir Matt" and undermined his successors, and even Moyes recognised that the club's backroom structure was a mess directly after he started; he asked to see the scouting reports for existing club targets and nobody knew what a scouting report was.

The backroom structure was obviously bequeathed by SAF, but it worked for him and they've had long enough to put one in place that works for others. If a competent CEO had come in instead of Woodward I'd be amazed if things would have been so bad for anything like as long.

Edit: I've only just realised that your "ego and hubris" comment was (presumably) referring to the Rock of Gibraltar debacle. In which case, you have a point. Though the club could well have been sold at some point anyway; maybe to even worse owners than the Glazers...

 

[Moriarty]

You do go back! What was it really like to witness the decline of United into a relegated team? I`m guessing that back then the Premiership was such a different entity that while United`s fall was a bad time it wasn`t seen as the end of the world the way things go now in the ballooned mega salaries/corporate focused Premier League.

Well there was no PL back in 1974. I really started to watch United games in the 1964-65 season when Sir Matt's last side were on the rise. We won the title in 1965, lost a European Cup semi the following season - I still don't know how - and won the title again in 1967. We should have won it again in 1968 but for a few blips at season's end that saw City take it, but we had the European Cup win to mollify us. 1969 saw us in the EC semi again getting robbed my Milan in the semi, but other teams were on the rise. Shankly was creating a formidable side at Anfield, Leeds were there and Brian Clough's Derby. Everton were in the mix too and Bertie Mee had put together an Arsenal side that won the double in 1971.

It was painfully obvious to all United fans that we were on the slide. Best would more often than not, carry the side on his own but even his brilliance wasn't enough. When we finally dropped down, nobody that I knew wanted Tommy Docherty sacked. In fact, support for the team was more enthusiastic then even in those days. We all knew we'd be back. Believe it or not, we had some great times following United around the country.

 

[McGrathsipan]

Nearly a decade after SAF left, we're back with a near fresh start. At these times of change it's common to start thinking about what was and what could have been.

Was there a moment for you the broke us completely from the succeses of the previous two decades?

For me, I keep coming back to the idea that no one is bigger than the club. It's something that Sir Alex said over and over and why he was happy to ship out stars that he didn't think fit the club. But one person thought that they were bigger than the club, and that was SAF himself. Actually he thought that all managers were in a way. When he left, he wanted a new person to create a new Manchester United with new staff. As if the structure that had been built over the last 20 years didn't belong to United, it belonged to Sir Alex.

Weird thought but keep coming back to it.

Anyway, what was your moment that broke United for you?

The Executive management team did not have a succession plan in place for Sir Alex, he was getting older and older and yet when he pulled the pin and announced his retirement it was like an oh feck moment.
Someone should have ensured that there was a man brought in and groomed to be the successor and all of the other backroom stuff that a modern football club needs.

Too many commercial men at the club. In that way the brand has been extremely successful for the Glazers

 

[Suv666]

The Breaking began the day of the Strike on Shayol Ghul, when Lews Therin Telamon and his Hundred Companions along with a legion of soldiers attacked Shayol Ghul in an effort to seal the Bore into the Dark Ones' prison. They succeeded, but in the last moment the Dark One managed to taint saidin and sixty-eight companions along with Lews Therin went instantly mad.

Nerd alert

 

[lex talionis]

Not sure about ever being “broken”, but the WTF moment for me was the hiring of Moyes. We have yet to recover from that disastrous decision.

 

[2 man midfield]

The glazers never did and still don’t run the club. They left it to sir Alex who was not just the manager but also the director of football, and the guy in charge of everything that went on at the club. The ceo was basically under him as well, whereas under Woodward it was the other way around.

Sir Alex left and hence opened up this massive chasm where all these roles he used to do with his eyes closed suddenly needed filling, and we left an investment banker with the keys to the kingdom.

David Moyes was a terrible choice of successor, and I’m no fan of the glazers but Woodward is the biggest factor in our failure post Fergie, hands down.

 

[fergiewherearethou]

The only managers that could of kept United at a high level were Pep or Klopp, yes it's so easy to see that now, knowing what happened post Alex, but obviously high paid individuals in high places at big clubs should anticipate these decisions, that's why they are there and we only write on forums.

 

[rcoobc]

Did he?

The view at the time was that he’d recommended Moyes because he believed that Moyes was the one to carry on the SAF tradition. He was fully expecting Moyes to retain the existing staff, and was surprised and disappointed when he didn’t.

Right, but when Moyes said he wanted to bring in his own backroom staff, we could have said no... and Sit Alex was part of that decision.

It's such a weird thing in hindsight to sign a manager who throws out the backroom staff built on decades of success.

 

[Sandikan]

Will never forget the day at work when it was clear Moyes was imminent.

The brave facing it and trying to pretend it was a good move by so many United fans was heart breaking.
As was seeing the names on the team sheet and seeing us constantly lose to crap teams, but assuming we'd break out of it soon.

 

[Sandikan]

The only managers that could of kept United at a high level were Pep or Klopp, yes it's so easy to see that now, knowing what happened post Alex, but obviously high paid individuals in high places at big clubs should anticipate these decisions, that's why they are there and we only write on forums.

It was the way there were even articles at the time saying United were keen to avoid the drop off post Busby by getting the hand over right, and then we still managed the triple header of Fergie going, Gill going, and missing out on the top 4 or 5 choices for next manager.

Though we tried to spin it that Moyes was first choice.

 

[Revaulx]

Right, but when Moyes said he wanted to bring in his own backroom staff, we could have said no... and Sit Alex was part of that decision.

It's such a weird thing in hindsight to sign a manager who throws out the backroom staff built on decades of success.

I’m not sure of the exact sequence of events, but seem to remember that the announcement that Moyes was throwing them out and bringing in his own lot happened quite a while after he was appointed. By which time it was presumably too late for SAF or the club to do much about it. I’m fairly sure that when he was given the job it was understood that he was keeping them.

Whatever actually happened, it’s an early example of the lack of attention to detail that has beset United since SAF’s departure. Things can’t just be left as “understood” or assumed; they need to be positively checked.

 

[tombombadil]

I've been complaining that the problems are upstairs for years. It's sickening.

 

[arthurka]

When the Glazers appointed investment bankers with little football knowledge or strategy to run a football club.

Apparently that wasn't a brilliant idea

 

[Tavern in the town]

I’m not sure of the exact sequence of events, but seem to remember that the announcement that Moyes was throwing them out and bringing in his own lot happened quite a while after he was appointed. By which time it was presumably too late for SAF or the club to do much about it. I’m fairly sure that when he was given the job it was understood that he was keeping them.

Whatever actually happened, it’s an early example of the lack of attention to detail that has beset United since SAF’s departure. Things can’t just be left as “understood” or assumed; they need to be positively checked.

I don’t really understand the stick Moyes gets for that decision. What the hell else did people expect him to do? All managers try to take their back room staff that they’ve had success with into their next job.

 

[Revaulx]

The glazers never did and still don’t run the club. They left it to sir Alex who was not just the manager but also the director of football, and the guy in charge of everything that went on at the club. The ceo was basically under him as well, whereas under Woodward it was the other way around.

Apparently they’ve been a lot more involved recently; presumably as a result of Woodward pissing “their” money away so spectacularly. Let’s hope Arnold can show them that he doesn’t need micromanaging.

Sir Alex left and hence opened up this massive chasm where all these roles he used to do with his eyes closed suddenly needed filling, and we left an investment banker with the keys to the kingdom.

Yup. Though David Gill’s role in botching the process, whether he was under SAF’s thumb or not, can’t be ignored.

David Moyes was a terrible choice of successor, and I’m no fan of the glazers but Woodward is the biggest factor in our failure post Fergie, hands down.

Absolutely. Moyes did at least recognise that the club’s backroom organisation was a shambles; it was he that persuaded them to get Murtough in after all.

 

[Revaulx]

I don’t really understand the stick Moyes gets for that decision. What the hell else did people expect him to do? All managers try to take their back room staff that they’ve had success with into their next job.

Yeah I don’t particularly disagree, though the circumstances of his getting the job were unusual ones; normally managers come in following a sacking, rather than taking on the league champions.

The one he should have kept was Phelan, who SAF trusted to do a lot of the ego management.

What was completely idiotic was not so much that he replaced them, but that the club and SAF were taken by surprise when he did so.

 

[King7Eric]

Probably when I saw Ole crying on camera to be honest.

Same for me. Utd will be successful again sooner or later. But any hope of Man Utd staying similar to the Man Utd I grew up watching ended with Ole.

 

[alexthelion]

Can you imagine the likes of so many of those posters on here witnessing United`s freefall after Sir Matt retired or the instability under Tommy Docherty and Big Ron? They would be even more hysterical than now. As for the first years under the then Alex Ferguson, some of these posters would have gone to the blue end of town.

Would have been fun to watch, though.

 

[Robertd0803]

When Sir Alex left.

 

[Lost bear]

What he said

What they said.

 

[fps]

When Moyes was chosen as head coach instead of someone sensible and able to deal with high-powered players. Someone like Ancelotti would have been absolutely perfect while everyone worked out what to do post Fergie.

 

[Revaulx]

Same for me. Utd will be successful again sooner or later. But any hope of Man Utd staying similar to the Man Utd I grew up watching ended with Ole.

So what? Any hope I had of Man Utd staying similar to the Man Utd I grew up watching ended with The Doc.

 

[glazed]

When the Glazers appointed investment bankers with little football knowledge or strategy to run a football club.

When the Glazers bought the club. Which only happened imho because of SAF and the Rock of Gibraltar mess.

 

[King7Eric]

So what? Any hope I had of Man Utd staying similar to the Man Utd I grew up watching ended with The Doc.

So nothing. The question was what broke Man Utd for you and I answered.

 

[Dannn411]

Call me crazy but this period of total breakdown was badly needed to drag Manchester United into the modern era. Because of Fergie, people at the club thought we were completely invincible to everything. Meanwhile, the club was falling behind other major European clubs at a rapid rate. We were never going to be able to compete immediately after Fergie because the club was stuck in the 80s and 90s while everyone else had moved on. We are only just starting to move on now, 10 years later. Things look bad now but we are learning ever so slowly.

But ultimately, Manchester United remains Manchester United, one of the biggest, richest sports teams on the planet. Once we get governance and coaching right, things will change rapidly on the pitch and given the club's resources, what will come out of this period will be a United able to build contending teams for much longer periods, immune from the influences of any one figure. That will be a juggernaut that will be very tough to stop.

 

[Ravelation]

...When he left, he wanted a new person to create a new Manchester United with new staff. As if the structure that had been built over the last 20 years didn't belong to United, it belonged to Sir Alex....

I disagree with this, I'm sure I recall reading that SAF wanted Moyes to take over and leave in place the majority of staff, but Moyes opted for doing the opposite.

 

[Revaulx]

So nothing. The question was what broke Man Utd for you and I answered.

Fair enough. Us older fans grew up witnessing loads of change, so maybe we are better equipped to deal with it than those who grew up in the SAF years of plenty!

 

[Revaulx]

When Moyes was chosen as head coach instead of someone sensible and able to deal with high-powered players. Someone like Ancelotti would have been absolutely perfect while everyone worked out what to do post Fergie.

Ancelotti would have been massively more sensible than Moyes, but he’s never had to oversee a massive rebuild. Unless he could have persuaded the Glazers that Woodward must not be involved in footballing matters the same problem would have arisen sooner or later.

 

[Marzo]

When the Glazers appointed investment bankers with little football knowledge or strategy to run a football club.

Absolutely agree, after seeing David De Tea’s post on Twitter, saying goodbye to Lingard and Pogba, I kinda realised that these guys ( as the above quoted) focused on social media and brand building, and not the football side.
It was all about big money for high profile players that can achieve this brand building and social media exposure.
Hopefully, now this club will finally be back down to earth, and realise that it is all about the football and all fans want to see is great attacking football with a team that actually gives it’s all!

 

[Tincanalley]

So what? Any hope I had of Man Utd staying similar to the Man Utd I grew up watching ended with The Doc.

I like it

 

[Revaulx]

I like it

What? Change?

It’s clear that another SAF won’t be coming along any time soon, so we might as well accept that the club needs to try another way.

Plenty of people on the Caf still want a messiah figure though. Look how many pine for Jose and are convinced all would be well if only he’d been “backed”.

 

[Camilo]

No one's bigger than the club....something Rio and co forgot when Moyes arrived.

He might never have been the right manager, but shoving him out and siding with the players is still haunting the club today. "These players won the league last year" - "well where the feck are they now?" should have been the response. Blaming the manager was all they had any interest in doing.

Instead of trying to create a link from the SAF days, the aging squad of fragile egos pointed the finger instead. It was broken only months into the first season without him - such a shame we have to watch a nothing player like Rio talk about the club week in week out.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Sir Alex Ferguson is in ways a tragic figure. Brilliant man manager; high end football strategist of a bygone era. Lovable rogue, passionate and inspirational. I still love the old footage of the various triumphant moments - him rushing off the bench after another impossible peak has been conquered. He saw the genius in Cantona, Keane, Giggs; etc; he improved so many others.

Yet his ego and hubris are part of the story of the club’s fall from grace. Until the Glazers depart and a better ownership model is in place there is little prospect of a return to the summit.

If anything his ability to manage his own ego is why he has been so uniquely successful - delegating power as football changed and constantly evolving to make sure he always put the club first.

Glazer ownership is on the Glazers.

 

[Olecurls99]

2017/18 we finished second and reached the FA Cup final but it was obvious that city were levels above us. Mourinho wanted 4 players in that summer and all we got was Matic and Dalot. We lost Carrick, Fellaini and Blind from the squad.
Mourinho wanted Martial out and Perisic in. Perisic would have been a much better player for Lukaku and United in general.

I also think Mourinho had fallen out with Pogba at this stage over his insistence to do his injury rehabilitation in the USA the previous season. After our disappointing transfer window the writing was on the wall for Mourinho, despite him reaching 3 finals in previous 2 seasons.

When Mourinho got fired after a bad start to 18/19 it was the least surprising thing ever, what happened next was when I knew we were fecked. In comes Solskjaer in the middle of our easiest run of the season. Cardiff, Huddersfield and the mighty Bournemouth were put to the sword. Then the jammy win over PSG had the fans in a frenzy and it was obvious our dumb board were going to give him the job on a full time basis. The end of the season finished disastrously but Ole was at the wheel.
Our worst decision since Ferguson retirement was given Solskjaer the job imo, especially when our competitors had Klopp and Guardiola.

Yeah because up until then we were doing fine. He then got us relegated or 2nd....... Who cares. Jose was great and Ole was terrible.

Great story Gordy. I just didn't like the ending.

 

[Frank Grimes]

Yeah because up until then we were doing fine. He then got us relegated or 2nd....... Who cares. Jose was great and Ole was terrible.

Great story Gordy. I just didn't like the ending.

Jose wasn't great. He won us 2 trophies and wanted more investment. I agree with you about Solskjaer though, he was terrible.

 

[Olecurls99]

Sir Alex said stand by your manager. Then we gave him 9 months. That's when I knew

 

[Olecurls99]

Jose wasn't great. He won us 2 trophies and wanted more investment. I agree with you about Solskjaer though, he was terrible.

Crap trophies that were below us, and told us it's all we deserved. He was trolling us from the inside. He told us Champions league last 16 and 2nd was all we warranted. He was pure toxicity. Ole wasn't the answer but by God he wasn't toxic. He was a good egg

 

[Frank Grimes]

Crap trophies that were below us, and told us it's all we deserved. He was trolling us from the inside. He told us Champions league last 16 and 2nd was all we warranted. He was pure toxicity. Ole wasn't the answer but by God he wasn't toxic. He was a good egg

Nobody ever denied Solskjaer was a decent guy. Great guy imo, just a shit manager. Way out of his depth, Moyes is even a level or 2 above him.