The Case for the Defence

Lentwood

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I keep reading that the standard of defenders is worse than it has ever been. It's a common view espoused by ex-players, pundits, journalists and fans, who all seem united in the belief that there just aren't many good defenders around right now. Even Specsavers have released an advert this morning poking fun at PL defenders!

The trouble with this view is that it can't possibly be true. It makes absolutely no sense that somehow defenders are worse now than they were 10/15yrs ago.

The reason I say that is that in every single professional sport, the standard has gone up markedly across the board over the last 20yrs. Understanding of fitness, diet, tactics, how to prepare for a game, coaching and the psychology of sport have all improved immeasurably. We might look back on football games, even as recently as the 90s and early 00s with rose-tinted glasses, but if you watch those games now it's almost like a different sport!

So what's going wrong then? Pep Guardiola has spent £500m+ on defenders and is still struggling to find any who look half-competent. Utd have spent £80m on Maguire, who looked a banker having proven himself internationally and in the PL, now it looks like he is regressing every single game he plays, as do the full backs at Utd. Chelsea have shipped goals at a comical rate, despite having tried numerous defensive partnerships and numerous players at full back. We have seen Liverpool increasingly ship goals since lockdown was lifted. Already this season they have conceded 11 goals in 4 games...and that includes a clean sheet!

So, if I'm arguing that defenders can't possibly have gotten worse (i.e. worse at playing football/worse at the actual art of defending), yet teams are leaking goals at alarming rates and defenders are getting panned week-in, week-out by pundits...then what is going on?

My belief is that the systems employed by modern managers at 'elite' clubs are increasingly exposing the defences. Now, this isn't really a ground-breaking theory, we know that Pep Guardiola and Klopp have advocated intense high-presses and a high line for years. They do this to close down the amount of space the opposition have to play in and to win the ball back high up the pitch in dangerous attacking areas.

Nevertheless, I believe that in an ever-increasing desire to gain more control and score more goals, teams are now getting the balance majorly wrong. Look at the Liverpool and United games yesterday as prime example, or even City vs Leicester last week. It has become so predictable, and these teams are so high, that the opposition know that one pass and they can be in on goal. Vardy, Son and Watkins had absolutely field days' with half of a Premier League-sized football pitch to run into. The trouble is, these teams don't even attempt to beat the press. They have worked out that this is futile and not worth the trouble.

Dean Smith said in his interview yesterday 'we know they shift the line very well and press very well, so we worked on switching the play and deploying deep runs to beat the press'. The plan couldn't have worked out any better and Grealish, Watkins and Barkley made van Dijk and Gomez look like Sunday League players.

Likewise, Utd, with just an ageing Matic in the DM role and no pressing from the midfield, were cut apart time and time again by Tottenham. Jose knew exactly how to beat United's limp press, keeping players high and wide to stretch our full backs and then utilising Kane's hold-up abilities and Son's pace to scythe through us at will. Jose knew Pogba is a liability, that Matic wouldn't have the legs and that Shaw and Maguire would struggle with the raw pace of Son.

Now, at this point, you can blame the players...and sure, there were individual errors, particularly by United players. However, part of me thinks some of these individual errors can be traced back to players constantly feeling uncomfortable, having to play the game an unnatural way and putting themselves in positions they don't want to be in. It shouldn't be the case that the opposition can turn the back four/five so easily. It shouldn't be the case that one pass can dissect an entire team. It shouldn't be the case that defenders are forced into 2 vs 2 or 3 vs 3 situations multiple times in a game. It shouldn't be the case that the opposition forwards and midfielders are able to pick up the ball between the lines so easily. It shouldn't be the case that CBs are constantly having to cover for full backs who are asked to play halfway up the pitch for no obvious reason.

I believe football is easier for the attackers IF they are allowed the space to play. Most competent attackers will make most defences/defenders look very average if they have 30yards of space to play in and run into every time.

At what point do you blame the managers? At what point do you say that what you're trying to do for the attackers is making life so hard for the defenders that it's actually a net-negative tactic? Teams with players the calibre of United, City and Liverpool shouldn't be conceding 18 in one round of fixtures, that is beyond bizarre. In cricket, you talk about the balance between 'bat and ball' i.e. is the game currently weighted in favour of batsmen or bowlers? I think in football right now, the balance is firmly weighted in favour of attackers. They have so much space to play in, they find themselves 1 vs 1 against defenders so easily and so regularly.

Of course, in saying all this, I'm talking about the so-called top teams. The teams who are expected to play on the front-foot. Of course, most teams set-up deep and look to counter, mainly because this is a far easier way of playing football. Stay tight, stay compact, don't leave space and don't expose individuals. In many ways, this just further proves my point. Take a player like Maguire (or even Otamendi, Smalling, Jones, Rudiger, Zouma, Shaw, Alonso etc...) and stick them in a team who play a low-block. They would look a cut-above. Fans and pundits alike would be talking them up as top defenders, ready for the step up to a 'big' club. The problem is, when they then make that step-up, they can no longer defend their own penalty box or mark one-centre forward between two or have their full back five yards away from them or have two sitting midfielders in-front of them. Suddenly they are exposed. No protection, high-line, gaps everywhere, pacey forwards looking to hit them in-behind...you are on an absolute hiding to nothing. As I said, there can't just 'not be any good defenders', it's got to be tactical.

The only reason these tactics have worked previously for City and Liverpool is because their press has been incredible, and yes, in an ideal world, with the right players, the right press and the right system, it is preferable to have your back line nice and high. However...it requires the whole team to be on it. Take out Mane and take out Henderson yesterday, Villa exposed them. City haven't looked the same for 18mnths as their pressing game and tailed off and United...well we just don't have the players with the mindset or physical attributes to do it and we don't have the coaching staff to implement it in any case.

I think we can forgive Liverpool because it was one game (although their defensive record post-lockdown hasn't been great), however, United and City need to change. Stop with this fantasy idea that 'the next CB' or the 'next full back' will be the one that solves the problem. You can keep throwing money at players and working your way through every defender in Europe (if your Pep) but at one point do you look at your set-up and say 'these can't all be bad players?'.

Time to go back to basics? We won games last year playing counter-attacking football. Drop the defensive line 20yrds, get Pogba out of the side, stick Fernandes, van de Beek and Matic as a flat three in midfield. Keep Mason and Rashford high and wide with Martial/Cavani through the middle. I guarantee we will finish with 20 more pts than if we keep up with this debacle of a 'tactic'.
 

giorno

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And how the feck do you plan to play on the counter at home against Palace? Or Mourinho's Spurs, for that matter?

You make good points, but only to come down to an inane point
 

Siorac

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Time to go back to basics? We won games last year playing counter-attacking football. Drop the defensive line 20yrds, get Pogba out of the side, stick Fernandes, van de Beek and Matic as a flat three in midfield. Keep Mason and Rashford high and wide with Martial/Cavani through the middle. I guarantee we will finish with 20 more pts than if we keep up with this debacle of a 'tactic'.
And this, as we saw last season, can work against the likes of City and Chelsea (we didn't quite pull it off against Liverpool). But we struggled to score that all-important first goal in so many games because, well, as you yourself said, most teams don't play with a high line, trying to take the game to us. When we can't counter, we're dead as it is. We need to be able to score goals without relying on counter-attacking (or penalties) all the time.
 

Lentwood

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And how the feck do you plan to play on the counter at home against Palace? Or Mourinho's Spurs, for that matter?

You make good points, but only to come down to an inane point
I'm not suggesting we play on the counter in home games against bottom clubs but I'm arguing that the base still needs to be right - so if that means playing with four defensively minded defenders (LB, 2 x CBs and a RB) and two predominantly deeper midfielders shielding in-front of them then so be it.

What we can't have is this situation whereby every time the opposition turn the ball over we're in a 2vs2 or 3vs3 situation at the back and/or our defenders are running towards their own goal and scrambling to get into position. OK, if we're getting picked apart by Bayern Munich or Liverpool fine...but these are very, very average clubs tearing us apart recently (Brighton and Palace) and Spurs are hardly world-beaters.

Playing four 'defensive' defenders and two sitting midfielders doesn't have to be negative. I don't know where the idea came from that every single player in a team needs to be flying forward to score a goal. Surely a solid base plus Fernandes, Greenwood, Martial and Rashford is capable of scoring goals?

Remember, our worst periods last year, when struggling against bottom-half clubs, were usually without Fernandes, Greenwood and Martial (injured). Add in a functioning Pogba/van de Beek in a stable, central role and I don't think it has to be considered negative at all.
 

giorno

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What does defensive defenders even mean

You mean, leave the back 4, and perhaps 2 midfielders, parked around your box and let the other 4 dedicate themselves to attacking? That's counter-attacking football. That can work, if your opponent is willing to attack you with numbers. See my previous post about it
 

Gio

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I keep reading that the standard of defenders is worse than it has ever been. It's a common view espoused by ex-players, pundits, journalists and fans, who all seem united in the belief that there just aren't many good defenders around right now. Even Specsavers have released an advert this morning poking fun at PL defenders!

The trouble with this view is that it can't possibly be true. It makes absolutely no sense that somehow defenders are worse now than they were 10/15yrs ago.

The reason I say that is that in every single professional sport, the standard has gone up markedly across the board over the last 20yrs. Understanding of fitness, diet, tactics, how to prepare for a game, coaching and the psychology of sport have all improved immeasurably.
Agree that it's lazy to ignore the far more challenging environment for centre-halves when making these cross-generational comparisons. There's been some absolute monsters even in the last decade - Thiago Silva and Van Dijk for example - who don't really get the credit they deserve because of the attacker-friendly era we are in. It's not really that defenders are better or worse, just different. Because more of both their game and their development as footballers is focused on what they do with the ball, rather than on without it.

Still the easiest barometer for physical improvement across sport is track and field athletics because it's easy to objectively compare across generations. But during the last 20 years there has been next to no improvement across the majority of events as times and distances have mostly stagnated or even tailed off. Now arguably track and field chewed off the easy fat several decades before, whereas the likes of football were further behind. But it's a bit of a myth that we are always improving, when in some areas, we have basically levelled off and the only real improvement arises from equipment advances (eg the new trampoline marathon shoes).
 

Lentwood

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What does defensive defenders even mean

You mean, leave the back 4, and perhaps 2 midfielders, parked around your box and let the other 4 dedicate themselves to attacking? That's counter-attacking football. That can work, if your opponent is willing to attack you with numbers. See my previous post about it
Surely you know what I mean...? I'm talking about a flat back four, as opposed to this idea that full backs now need to provide the width on the outside of the inside forwards? So, in the old days, a full back like Gary Neville might have overlapped David Beckham from time-to-time...but he wouldn't have been 60yards up the pitch when we had the ball down the left hand-side.

Also, I'm not talking about parking defenders on the edge of the box...why in your mind is there nothing between playing on the halfway line and paying on the edge of the box? There's 30/40yrds of grass there! I'm just saying that if we push the full backs high and ask the CBs to play on the halfway line man for man then that press better be Barcelona 2008 standard or City 2018...otherwise we're getting battered by the likes of Palace, Brighton and Spurs on a regular basis!

Surely far easier, and more trying to walk before we can run, is to keep it simple, build a solid base, win some games and look at how we implement title-challenging style tactics (City, Barcelona, Bayern, Liverpool style high-lines, high presses) when we have the players for it?
 

Lentwood

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Agree that it's lazy to ignore the far more challenging environment for centre-halves when making these cross-generational comparisons. There's been some absolute monsters even in the last decade - Thiago Silva and Van Dijk for example - who don't really get the credit they deserve because of the attacker-friendly era we are in. It's not really that defenders are better or worse, just different. Because more of both their game and their development as footballers is focused on what they do with the ball, rather than on without it.

Still the easiest barometer for physical improvement across sport is track and field athletics because it's easy to objectively compare across generations. But during the last 20 years there has been next to no improvement across the majority of events as times and distances have mostly stagnated or even tailed off. Now arguably track and field chewed off the easy fat several decades before, whereas the likes of football were further behind. But it's a bit of a myth that we are always improving, when in some areas, we have basically levelled off and the only real improvement arises from equipment advances (eg the new trampoline marathon shoes).
We can argue the semantics, we can argue whether football is different from athletics and we can argue that you only chose one area (physical performance) that may not have improved significantly.

However, rather than do that, I think we can agree that "it" whatever the "it" is, certainly hasn't gotten worse over the last 10/15yrs, even if it hasn't markedly improved in every area? (whether that's coaching, diet, fitness, preparation, post-match routine, general ability etc...)
 

giorno

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Surely you know what I mean...? I'm talking about a flat back four, as opposed to this idea that full backs now need to provide the width on the outside of the inside forwards? So, in the old days, a full back like Gary Neville might have overlapped David Beckham from time-to-time...but he wouldn't have been 60yards up the pitch when we had the ball down the left hand-side.
That's what most teams already do? Whether it's one fullback staying put, or a defensive midfielder, or multiple defensive midfielders, ALL the top clubs, the ones who simply can't play on the counter the majority of the time, have some tactical wrinkle aimed at shutting down and/or defending the transition phases. Guardiola does that by creating effectively a back 3(2 CB+1 DM) and often asking the fullbacks to tuck to serve as extra defensive midfielder to shut down the middle of the pitch for transitions. Hell, over the last year since their high press went out of synch he's been playing gundogan a lot, next to Rodri, precisely for that reason

Liverpool use the wingbacks effectively as wingers, and in turn keep at least 2 midfielders tucked in at all times. Real Madrid use Casemiro as an extra defender and keep both of the other midfielders tucked in as well - it's why our midfielders rarely make runs into the box - plus one of the wingbacks usually stays lower up the pitch when the attack goes through the other flank

Excetera, excetera

Also, I'm not talking about parking defenders on the edge of the box...why in your mind is there nothing between playing on the halfway line and paying on the edge of the box? There's 30/40yrds of grass there! I'm just saying that if we push the full backs high and ask the CBs to play on the halfway line man for man then that press better be Barcelona 2008 standard or City 2018...
The goal is to shrink the pitch to leave the opposition with as little space and time as possible. If you bring 6 men forward but leave the other 4 50/60 meters behind them you're basically inviting them to shred you in transition. Keeping your opponents in front of you means nothing if they can attack in even numbers with half the pitch to work with and thus lots and lots of space

otherwise we're getting battered by the likes of Palace, Brighton and Spurs on a regular basis!
You played badly, that's not down to not being defensive enough. You certainly didn't have an issue of not being defensive against brighton, you just didn't defend well. Palace and Spurs are good on the counter, but again, it's an issue of bad execution of Ole's tactical principles, not an issue of poor tactics. Their first two goals were down to catastrophic defensive mistakes by individual players. In the third you fecked up in the build up, and of course the red card had a massive negative psychological impact

Surely far easier, and more trying to walk before we can run, is to keep it simple, build a solid base, win some games and look at how we implement title-challenging style tactics (City, Barcelona, Bayern, Liverpool style high-lines, high presses) when we have the players for it?
Any gameplan is only as good as its execution. You lack fitness right now, you lack energy, you lack reactivity, you lack sharpness.

I don't disagree that in hindsight perhaps a more cautious, defensive approach right now would have been better, especially against Palace, but ultimately no amount of tactics are gonna help you if your CB badly messes up two clearances and then fouls a teammate in position to make another. Or if you get caught with your pants down by a quick free kick in midfield...
 

Lentwood

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That's what most teams already do? Whether it's one fullback staying put, or a defensive midfielder, or multiple defensive midfielders, ALL the top clubs, the ones who simply can't play on the counter the majority of the time, have some tactical wrinkle aimed at shutting down and/or defending the transition phases. Guardiola does that by creating effectively a back 3(2 CB+1 DM) and often asking the fullbacks to tuck to serve as extra defensive midfielder to shut down the middle of the pitch for transitions. Hell, over the last year since their high press went out of synch he's been playing gundogan a lot, next to Rodri, precisely for that reason

Liverpool use the wingbacks effectively as wingers, and in turn keep at least 2 midfielders tucked in at all times. Real Madrid use Casemiro as an extra defender and keep both of the other midfielders tucked in as well - it's why our midfielders rarely make runs into the box - plus one of the wingbacks usually stays lower up the pitch when the attack goes through the other flank

Excetera, excetera


The goal is to shrink the pitch to leave the opposition with as little space and time as possible. If you bring 6 men forward but leave the other 4 50/60 meters behind them you're basically inviting them to shred you in transition. Keeping your opponents in front of you means nothing if they can attack in even numbers with half the pitch to work with and thus lots and lots of space


You played badly, that's not down to not being defensive enough. You certainly didn't have an issue of not being defensive against brighton, you just didn't defend well. Palace and Spurs are good on the counter, but again, it's an issue of bad execution of Ole's tactical principles, not an issue of poor tactics. Their first two goals were down to catastrophic defensive mistakes by individual players. In the third you fecked up in the build up, and of course the red card had a massive negative psychological impact


Any gameplan is only as good as its execution. You lack fitness right now, you lack energy, you lack reactivity, you lack sharpness.

I don't disagree that in hindsight perhaps a more cautious, defensive approach right now would have been better, especially against Palace, but ultimately no amount of tactics are gonna help you if your CB badly messes up two clearances and then fouls a teammate in position to make another. Or if you get caught with your pants down by a quick free kick in midfield...
I’m almost less worried about the result yesterday, for arguments sake. We got got a battering but, as you point out, the first two were individual errors. Then we obviously went down to ten, which doesn’t help.

My biggest concern is the first two games. We shouldn’t be giving up 6/7 chances in a game to Brighton or Palace, that’s just not acceptable.

You say that all teams already do what I described...but I’m not sure I can see what Utd are trying to do. It’s like we’re trying to do a little bit of everything...high line, high-full backs, pivots, AMs, inside forwards, bit of pressing but with no real intensity...I can’t really work out what we’re actually trying to do.

The midfield is a bigger problem than the defence for me. I can’t see any shape whatsoever and we’re signings more AMs, despite it seeming to me like we need more “functional” holding/tactically disciplined players