The CBs from the Portuguese League Thread

Ekeke

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So in the thread about today's international matches there were some posts about Ruben Dias and how good he is. There have also been a couple of CBs who were signed for a fairly big amount of money from teams in that league. So how good are the CBs there now and how good have the CBs been that were signed during their hype phase in previous seasons?

Here are the most expensive CBs from Liga NOS



How many of them have gone to their new clubs and been great CBs?

Theres obviously some nuance. They arent all exactly the same. For example Militao wins the ball quite a lot. Pepe won the ball quite a lot until his final seasons at Madrid and not so much coming to the end and since leaving. Otamendi did win the ball a lot at Valencia, then won the ball less and less at City to the point where now he wins the ball a small amount. Similar for David Luiz, when he first came to Chelsea he won the ball a decent amount and as he got older he doesn't anymore. Boly is a ball winning CB at Wolves. Rojo had times when he did win the ball a fair bit, despite being very reckless and then in recent seasons on the few occasions he did play he wasnt a ball winner at all. Lindelof, Mangala and Ruben Dias win the ball a small amount and thats never been different.

They are also of differing quality when they've been on the ball too.

Overall though? I dont think its unfair to suggest that Carvalho and Pepe were the only 2 that have had a period where they were truly top CBs and Militao has plenty of time to sink or swim given hes 21 so its fair to say we just dont know with him.

I would argue that if you looked at a list of players signed from the portuguese leagues you'd find a lot more great buys in attacking areas than CB. And that while obviously there have been some CBs that would be great to have in their prime at the heart of our defense, most of the time they failed to become top CBs and even though there seems to be a lot of hype about a CB or two from that league every year, the record of them coming good leaves a lot to be desired.
 

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So in the thread about today's international matches there were some posts about Ruben Dias and how good he is. There have also been a couple of CBs who were signed for a fairly big amount of money from teams in that league. So how good are the CBs there now and how good have the CBs been that were signed during their hype phase in previous seasons?

Here are the most expensive CBs from Liga NOS



How many of them have gone to their new clubs and been great CBs?

Theres obviously some nuance. They arent all exactly the same. For example Militao wins the ball quite a lot. Pepe won the ball quite a lot until his final seasons at Madrid and not so much coming to the end and since leaving. Otamendi did win the ball a lot at Valencia, then won the ball less and less at City to the point where now he wins the ball a small amount. Similar for David Luiz, when he first came to Chelsea he won the ball a decent amount and as he got older he doesn't anymore. Boly is a ball winning CB at Wolves. Rojo had times when he did win the ball a fair bit, despite being very reckless and then in recent seasons on the few occasions he did play he wasnt a ball winner at all. Lindelof, Mangala and Ruben Dias win the ball a small amount and thats never been different.

They are also of differing quality when they've been on the ball too.

Overall though? I dont think its unfair to suggest that Carvalho and Pepe were the only 2 that have had a period where they were truly top CBs and Militao has plenty of time to sink or swim given hes 21 so its fair to say we just dont know with him.

I would argue that if you looked at a list of players signed from the portuguese leagues you'd find a lot more great buys in attacking areas than CB. And that while obviously there have been some CBs that would be great to have in their prime at the heart of our defense, most of the time they failed to become top CBs and even though there seems to be a lot of hype about a CB or two from that league every year, the record of them coming good leaves a lot to be desired.
From my memory until 10/15 years ago they were more reliable than now, particularly if you think in guys like Lindelof/ Rojo/Otamendi/Garay this decade. Before that guys like Pepe/Ricardo Carvalho/Bruno Alves/Jorge Andrade/Fernando Meira and way before Fernando Couto had a better level imo. Ligue 1 and Bundesliga CB are more reliable because the level is simply higher. This and the Mendes factor who puts ridiculous financial pressure on the players he sells. Most probably a guy from Porto will go to Wolves now, Diogo Leite, but I doubt he will reach the same level as Boly, who by the way has been great for them. French guy of course. Think Dias will raise his level playing this season for Jorge Jesus. But in Ligue 1 there’s more quality at a better price for that position imo.
 

TheMagicFoolBus

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So in the thread about today's international matches there were some posts about Ruben Dias and how good he is. There have also been a couple of CBs who were signed for a fairly big amount of money from teams in that league. So how good are the CBs there now and how good have the CBs been that were signed during their hype phase in previous seasons?

Here are the most expensive CBs from Liga NOS



How many of them have gone to their new clubs and been great CBs?

Theres obviously some nuance. They arent all exactly the same. For example Militao wins the ball quite a lot. Pepe won the ball quite a lot until his final seasons at Madrid and not so much coming to the end and since leaving. Otamendi did win the ball a lot at Valencia, then won the ball less and less at City to the point where now he wins the ball a small amount. Similar for David Luiz, when he first came to Chelsea he won the ball a decent amount and as he got older he doesn't anymore. Boly is a ball winning CB at Wolves. Rojo had times when he did win the ball a fair bit, despite being very reckless and then in recent seasons on the few occasions he did play he wasnt a ball winner at all. Lindelof, Mangala and Ruben Dias win the ball a small amount and thats never been different.

They are also of differing quality when they've been on the ball too.

Overall though? I dont think its unfair to suggest that Carvalho and Pepe were the only 2 that have had a period where they were truly top CBs and Militao has plenty of time to sink or swim given hes 21 so its fair to say we just dont know with him.

I would argue that if you looked at a list of players signed from the portuguese leagues you'd find a lot more great buys in attacking areas than CB. And that while obviously there have been some CBs that would be great to have in their prime at the heart of our defense, most of the time they failed to become top CBs and even though there seems to be a lot of hype about a CB or two from that league every year, the record of them coming good leaves a lot to be desired.
I find this analysis a bit bizarre. Ricardo Carvalho and Pepe are undoubtedly among the best CBs of their generation. David Luiz was obviously a mixed bag at times but that glosses over the fact that he won pretty much every trophy at Chelsea and was a vital part of our CL-winning side. Tapsoba almost single-handedly revitalised Leverkusen's defense this past season - he was undeniably brilliant. Felipe was Atleti's best CB and was their rock all season given Gimenez's injury problems.

There will always be question marks over players coming from lower-tier leagues; I don't think that the CB position from Liga NOS is a huge outlier or anything.
 

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I find this analysis a bit bizarre. Ricardo Carvalho and Pepe are undoubtedly among the best CBs of their generation. David Luiz was obviously a mixed bag at times but that glosses over the fact that he won pretty much every trophy at Chelsea and was a vital part of our CL-winning side. Tapsoba almost single-handedly revitalised Leverkusen's defense this past season - he was undeniably brilliant. Felipe was Atleti's best CB and was their rock all season given Gimenez's injury problems.

There will always be question marks over players coming from lower-tier leagues; I don't think that the CB position from Liga NOS is a huge outlier or anything.
Luiz has been questioned ever since he signed for Chelsea. Very error prone.

Tapsoba started 12 games and was fairly good for the 5th best German team. That doesnt make you a top CB.

Felipe started 4 more league games than Gimenez, not much in it. He may well have been their best CB but he's also 31 while Gimenez is 25.
 

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Luiz has been questioned ever since he signed for Chelsea. Very error prone.

Tapsoba started 12 games and was fairly good for the 5th best German team. That doesnt make you a top CB.

Felipe started 4 more league games than Gimenez, not much in it. He may well have been their best CB but he's also 31 while Gimenez is 25.
Sure. All that can be the case even if I disagree. Unless you can show that CBs from comparable leagues tend to do better than those from Portugal, it's really a pointless thread isn't it?
 

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Sure. All that can be the case even if I disagree. Unless you can show that CBs from comparable leagues tend to do better than those from Portugal, it's really a pointless thread isn't it?
No. Not every league has a hyped up CB linked with the top clubs like we have from Portugal. Thats why the thread is here, because theres a poor record considering all that hype
 

TheMagicFoolBus

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No. Not every league has a hyped up CB linked with the top clubs like we have from Portugal. Thats why the thread is here, because theres a poor record considering all that hype
A poor record compared to what? You keep going on about this; go ahead and demonstrate that the Portuguese league is actually disproportionately producing poor CBs via an actual comparison instead of the hand waving bullshit featured in this thread thus far.
 

Ekeke

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A poor record compared to what? You keep going on about this; go ahead and demonstrate that the Portuguese league is actually disproportionately producing poor CBs via an actual comparison instead of the hand waving bullshit featured in this thread thus far.
The quality of CBs bought for their most expensive fees to what became of them. Its like you havent seen Mangala and Lindelof play. Even Rojo is in the top 10 transfers... If you cant see something wrong with that then theres little point reading your post
 

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Go through a list of the Premier League most expensive defenders ever and you'll find John Stones, Michael Keane, Mamadou Sakho, Dejan Lovren, etc.

There are loads of centrebacks that played in Portugal and later on made it at a top club. Out of the names in the first post I'd only consider Mangala and Rojo to have been bad transfers, the rest were ok at worst.

If you search for midfielders then the record is probably worse with Joao Mario, Renato Sanches, Imbula, etc. There are great players and big flops regardless of the position and league you search
 

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Just as an aside from this post with regards to defenders, I do feel that some players tend to move on too quickly to bigger teams and begin to struggle. Renato Sanches was considered an absolutely fantastic prospect, and played some good football in his first full season for Benfica, I think his move to Bayern came about 24 months too early. Felix too, for his own good I feel should have stayed in Portugal for another year, but obviously that offer was never going to be turned down.
 

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Like a lot of players who move to a different league, some find it difficult to settle, some don't, but players like Bailly, Lindelof, and to a certain extent Rojo were just average players when we signed them. Bailly and Lindelof have glaring weaknesses that anyone would have noticed, except of course our scouts. Rojo had a semi-decent world cup and we were all over him. They were bad signings right from the start.

As for Dias, I mentioned him a few times last year as someone who has impressed me the few times I have seen him play. Now people who watch him regularly would be able to comment on how good he really is.
 

berbatrick

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IDK what this obsession with "winning the ball a lot" is, it presumably means you can ignore Carvalho, but there seems to be a mix of great (Carvalho, Pepe), good (Otamendi, Bruno Alves, Felipe), decent (Lindelof, Boly) and poor (Mangala, Rojo). No real trend.
 

JakeC

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Like a lot of players who move to a different league, some find it difficult to settle, some don't, but players like Bailly, Lindelof, and to a certain extent Rojo were just average players when we signed them. Bailly and Lindelof have glaring weaknesses that anyone would have noticed, except of course our scouts. Rojo had a semi-decent world cup and we were all over him. They were bad signings right from the start.

As for Dias, I mentioned him a few times last year as someone who has impressed me the few times I have seen him play. Now people who watch him regularly would be able to comment on how good he really is.
Lindelof has been a good signing for us, whether or not he's going to be a long term fixture in the first team remains to be seen, but he definitely doesn't deserve the stick he gets from some on here.

Ruben has some similarities in his game, most notably his ball playing ability, although Lindelof has seemed to be more conservative this year with his passes, which could be because of how deep Matic has been dropping, as well as the acquisition of Maguire.

Lindelof completed 60.3 passes per 90 last season, with a 87.2% completion rating. He's also averaged 2.1 accurate long balls per 90, however he's only produced 0.1 dribbles, 0.1 key passes, and 0.2 shots per game. Defensively he's improved this season, however he's still quite conservative with 3.5 clearances per game, 0.8 tackles, 0.7 interceptions.

Comparing these statistics to Ruben requires some context as we obviously play at a higher level week in week out, but Ruben has completed 63 passes per 90, with a 90% completion rate and over twice the amount of accurate long balls per game with 4.9 lbX90. Defensively he's made 3.4 clearances, 1.4 tackles, and 0.8 interceptions. He's also scored more goals (3 compared to Lindelofs 2) and came up with 2 assists, something Lindelof hasn't contributed this season. He's also dribbled slightly more with 0.2 per game, which is still very low, but has completed 5 times as many key passes this season compared to Lindelof.

Over all, the fact that Ruben is a more physical defender, and has a lot more pace, I would genuinely like to see him come in, and challenge Victor for the starting spot, but it won't be this season as he just signed a new contract, but he'd be a brilliant signing and he's definitely one to watch.
 

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Most actually seem to have done well (especially when you consider the price). I would say something like:

Mangala - flop
Lindelof - hit
Pepe - hit
Carvajlo - awesome
Luiz - hit
Alves - hit
Felipe - hit
Rojo - flop
Andrade - hit
Otamendi - hit

Militao - have not watched enough
Tapsoba, Boly, Santos - who?
 

Ekeke

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Go through a list of the Premier League most expensive defenders ever and you'll find John Stones, Michael Keane, Mamadou Sakho, Dejan Lovren, etc.

There are loads of centrebacks that played in Portugal and later on made it at a top club. Out of the names in the first post I'd only consider Mangala and Rojo to have been bad transfers, the rest were ok at worst.

If you search for midfielders then the record is probably worse with Joao Mario, Renato Sanches, Imbula, etc. There are great players and big flops regardless of the position and league you search


4 top class CBs in the 10 largest transfers. You could suggest 2 out of the top 15 in Portugal

Keane and Sakho are 20th and 21st most expensive transfer of CBs involving premier league clubs :houllier: Not close to the top. The 20th most expensive transfer for Portugal is Bruno Martins Indi going to Stoke. Is he better than Keane and Sakho? Dont think so.

France and Netherlands have better records for example especially when you look at the prices that are paid for the players. Portugal maybe beats Belgium or Russia
 

Ekeke

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IDK what this obsession with "winning the ball a lot" is, it presumably means you can ignore Carvalho, but there seems to be a mix of great (Carvalho, Pepe), good (Otamendi, Bruno Alves, Felipe), decent (Lindelof, Boly) and poor (Mangala, Rojo). No real trend.
You could presume it but you'd be wrong. Also not sure why you would presume it instead of doing the slightest amount of research.

Not a lot of headers (1.6 his average), but on the deck he would win the ball around 4 times with tackles and interceptions (high) and 5 is a fairly average amount of clearances on top.

 

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And again, you people are using meaningless stats.

Case in point, since you use whoscored, check out Van Dijk and Smalling 18/19...
 

TheMagicFoolBus

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4 top class CBs in the 10 largest transfers. You could suggest 2 out of the top 15 in Portugal

Keane and Sakho are 20th and 21st most expensive transfer of CBs involving premier league clubs :houllier: Not close to the top. The 20th most expensive transfer for Portugal is Bruno Martins Indi going to Stoke. Is he better than Keane and Sakho? Dont think so.

France and Netherlands have better records for example especially when you look at the prices that are paid for the players. Portugal maybe beats Belgium or Russia
Breaking news: league with more money tends to produce better players. Also interesting that you didn't include the top 15, because then you get the likes of Bailly, Yerry Mina, etc. Also anyways this is a false equivalence because you're looking at CBs purchased by English teams and sold by Portuguese sides.
 

izec

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Most actually seem to have done well (especially when you consider the price). I would say something like:

Mangala - flop
Lindelof - hit
Pepe - hit
Carvajlo - awesome
Luiz - hit
Alves - hit
Felipe - hit
Rojo - flop
Andrade - hit
Otamendi - hit

Militao - have not watched enough
Tapsoba, Boly, Santos - who?
Willy Boly is well known, plays for Wolves as a CB for a while now. They usually play with 3 at the back, but him and Coady are starters as CB.
 

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Breaking news: league with more money tends to produce better players. Also interesting that you didn't include the top 15, because then you get the likes of Bailly, Yerry Mina, etc. Also anyways this is a false equivalence because you're looking at CBs purchased by English teams and sold by Portuguese sides.
I didnt bring up the premier league, I dont think its a good comparison at all because its a much much better league. He brought up the premier league comparison. So I informed him.

Bailly and Mina are much better than most of the players 10-15 in Portugal. Now you're the one making the comparison :lol: :lol: :lol:
 

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I didnt bring up the premier league, I dont think its a good comparison at all because its a much much better league. He brought up the premier league comparison. So I informed him.

Bailly and Mina are much better than most of the players 10-15 in Portugal. Now you're the one making the comparison :lol: :lol: :lol:
Well then the point remains that you haven't actually provided any context for your original post and on top of that didn't actually answer his question. You provided the list of most expensive purchases for England as a comparison for the most expensive sales for Portugal.

Regardless, who are the top 15 most expensive CBs from the Eridivisie or the Hellas Liga? Bizarre that you'd try to judge the Portuguese league without at least setting the baseline.

And Mina is better than Tapsoba, Otamendi, and Boly? News to me.
 

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Well then the point remains that you haven't actually provided any context for your original post and on top of that didn't actually answer his question. You provided the list of most expensive purchases for England as a comparison for the most expensive sales for Portugal.

Regardless, who are the top 15 most expensive CBs from the Eridivisie or the Hellas Liga? Bizarre that you'd try to judge the Portuguese league without at least setting the baseline.

And Mina is better than Tapsoba, Otamendi, and Boly? News to me.
I've already said, if you look at France and Netherlands their transfers tend to be for less money and more successful CBs. Portugal maybe beats Belgium and in Russia theres quite a bit of money spent on CBs who havent made a big impact at least outside of Russia

So we could say they are maybe 3rd best value for CBs which is middle of the pack of those sort of leagues. Perhaps we could bump France up now due to the French teams success in Europe this season, but in previous seasons (and we're looking at historical transfer value over the past couple of years) their league would not have been put a level above.
 

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I've already said, if you look at France and Netherlands their transfers tend to be for less money and more successful CBs. Portugal maybe beats Belgium and in Russia theres quite a bit of money spent on CBs who havent made a big impact at least outside of Russia

So we could say they are maybe 3rd best value for CBs which is middle of the pack of those sort of leagues. Perhaps we could bump France up now due to the French teams success in Europe this season, but in previous seasons (and we're looking at historical transfer value over the past couple of years) their league would not have been put a level above.
Yeah you've said but you haven't actually posted any data. Without context this whole thread is pointless. Who are the top 15 CB transfers from Ligue 1?

Also, if Liga NOS is the 3rd best value for CBs in Europe considering how much money is in the league that's a huge bargain. Again I just don't understand the point of this thread. Provide context otherwise this discussion is farcical.
 

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Yeah you've said but you haven't actually posted any data. Without context this whole thread is pointless. Who are the top 15 CB transfers from Ligue 1?

Also, if Liga NOS is the 3rd best value for CBs in Europe considering how much money is in the league that's a huge bargain. Again I just don't understand the point of this thread. Provide context otherwise this discussion is farcical.
I dont need to do everything for you. Get off your own arse
 

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I dont need to do everything for you. Get off your own arse
Hahahahaha because presumably you took a look and realised this whole thread is pointless.

Of course there's a risk in buying CBs from a lower tier league. Why this is worthy of its own thread is beyond me.
 

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Hahahahaha because presumably you took a look and realised this whole thread is pointless.

Of course there's a risk in buying CBs from a lower tier league. Why this is worthy of its own thread is beyond me.
No, I looked and realized you are pointless. I could give you all the info in the world and you would still continue to post stupidity. Wasted time
 

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4 top class CBs in the 10 largest transfers. You could suggest 2 out of the top 15 in Portugal

Keane and Sakho are 20th and 21st most expensive transfer of CBs involving premier league clubs :houllier: Not close to the top. The 20th most expensive transfer for Portugal is Bruno Martins Indi going to Stoke. Is he better than Keane and Sakho? Dont think so.

France and Netherlands have better records for example especially when you look at the prices that are paid for the players. Portugal maybe beats Belgium or Russia
4? I count Rio, VVD and possibly Laporte if you don't include the disaster he's been since returning from injury. I'd say 2.5 for now.
 

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4? I count Rio, VVD and possibly Laporte if you don't include the disaster he's been since returning from injury. I'd say 2.5 for now.
Yeah shocking that the top 10 purchases from PL clubs is comparable to the top 15 sold from Portugal. Rio and VVD are / were obviously tremendous; so too were Pepe and Carvalho.

Curious who the other two top class CBs are among that lot, @Ekeke - if you're including Maguire then this thread goes to another level of hilarity.
 

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4? I count Rio, VVD and possibly Laporte if you don't include the disaster he's been since returning from injury. I'd say 2.5 for now.
Maguire. I'm not saying he was worth the money because he wasnt, I'm saying hes one of the top CBs in the league. He's not as good as VVD other than that hes right in the mix.
 

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Maguire. I'm not saying he was worth the money because he wasnt, I'm saying hes one of the top CBs in the league. He's not as good as VVD other than that hes right in the mix.
Yup but I would say thats a reflection on the PL rather than Maguire. The question I'd ask is has he really been better at United than someone like Otamendi at City who was easily in the top 2 CB's in the league in the 17/18 season (I think it was 17.18 when himself and Vertonghen made TotS.) Think its too early to say Maguire has been class similar to Laporte who had a great 18 months followed by an injury and turning into John Stones for a bit after.
 

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You’re still going on about this?

You’ve basically proven that more expensive transfers, from a higher quality league, will generally give you a better quality player. Compare both number 10s on those lists. One costs €40 million and the other €10 million.

I’m not even sure what point you’re trying to make?
 

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Maguire. I'm not saying he was worth the money because he wasnt, I'm saying hes one of the top CBs in the league. He's not as good as VVD other than that hes right in the mix.
Maguire isn't fit to lace Pepe or Carvalho's boots. This is your standard for "top class"? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Cannot understate how hilarious it is that you're simultaneously arguing Maguire is top class whilst disparaging David Luiz, who has won more in his career and did so in England by an absolute mile.

The state of this thread hahaha
 

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Yup but I would say thats a reflection on the PL rather than Maguire. The question I'd ask is has he really been better at United than someone like Otamendi at City who was easily in the top 2 CB's in the league in the 17/18 season (I think it was 17.18 when himself and Vertonghen made TotS.) Think its too early to say Maguire has been class similar to Laporte who had a great 18 months followed by an injury and turning into John Stones for a bit after.
Hmm. I guess there is a bias on this website to be fair :lol: But generally people werent convinced by Otamendi on here at least
 

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Well, to be fair, this thread is a very sophisticated way to praise Chris Smalling
 

TheMagicFoolBus

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Not really. He's not on the list of signings. But his signing from Fulham was certainly a lot more of a success
Kinda like David Luiz was given that one of those two players won the PL and CL and the other didn't, yet apparently the one who didn't is more of a success.
 

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Tapsoba looks a real talent at Leverkusen
 

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Hmm. I guess there is a bias on this website to be fair :lol: But generally people werent convinced by Otamendi on here at least
Oh yeah, I mean Maguire has never been as bad as Otamendi at his worst.