The channel between CB and FB

[Skills]

Has it always been the biggest weakness in a football team's defence or is this a relatively new development in football? Using City as an example, it seems like their football is geared towards abusing that channel in a teams defense - they're constantly working the ball into that space. And then on the other side, the the forwards are getting in between the FB and CB to get on the end of a ball.

What's the natural counter against it? Is it why 3 CB formations, have made a bit of comeback because they close up that space more?

 

[Dancfc]

I'd say it's an even bigger problem in a 3atb formation.
Remember once we lost to Spurs under Conte and Alli scored twice in the gap between Azpi (RCB) and Moses (RWB).

 

[Beans]

With over lapping fullbacks so important to most teams' attack, it makes sense. Salah is ideal with his speed and dribbling, he can pull a CB wide then get past him, and that often leaves him 1-on-1 with the keeper.

But finding strikers like him or wide players who can score like Robben is difficult.

 

[ValenciasDrilledCrosses]

That ball in between the centre back and fullback is so deadly, usually leads to a simple cutback across goal. Wish we could score more 'easy' goals like that, City are obviously stacked with an unreal amount of talent but they have those goals down to a science. The last time I remember a goal like that is in preseason vs Leeds, Pogba played a great ball in that channel to AWB who cut it across to Greenwood. Pogba is also one of the few in our team with the vision and weight of pass to pull that off, but the lack of off the ball movement in our team doesn't help either.

Don't agree with Dancfc though, I think 3ATB is the natural counter if the wingbacks don't get dragged too far forward and the wide centrebacks stay deep enough. There's a reason City have struggled so much to create those types of chances against us, Ole has set up in a 3ATB every time we've troubled them this season (5ATB when not in possession). You just have to be willing to cede possession more often than not. The one time we played a back four in the LC first leg they cut us to pieces.

 

[adexkola]

Your midfield would plug that gap in a deep block. So in such scenarios switching the ball is needed to quickly get the ball to the other side where the midfield has not migrated yet, and gaps can be exploited

 

[Adam-Utd]

Thats also why they struggle recently when sitting back with a tighter narrow back 4.

Width and good crossing is required to beat that which is probably why Liverpool manage to beat the more stubborn defences.

 

[Skills]

Thats also why they struggle recently when sitting back with a tighter narrow back 4.

Width and good crossing is required to beat that which is probably why Liverpool manage to beat the more stubborn defences.

Do they struggle though? They got 100 points and 98 points in the last 2 seasons, and did it scoring a lot more goals and playing better football.

Liverpool make it look a lot more workman-like compared to City.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Do they struggle though? They got 100 points and 98 points in the last 2 seasons, and did it scoring a lot more goals and playing better football.

Well I think since Sane's injury they've not had that option of 2 wide fast attackers, they've always had that 1 inside forward who has to tuck in.

Obviously they still manage to break most down eventually, but i'm thinking of ourselves against them especially, that tactic has worked a treat over the last few years - maybe the rest of the league just don't have the defensive structure we have?

The channel to so speak is easy to shut down, but then you leave a lot more space out wide for a winger to cross or use an overlap. In the 90's all teams defended like that and our wingers/fullbacks had a field day, in the latter years with players becoming more athletic it's become a bit looser, hence why teams have evolved to use the inside spaces more.

 

[Skills]

Well I think since Sane's injury they've not had that option of 2 wide fast attackers, they've always had that 1 inside forward who has to tuck in.

Obviously they still manage to break most down eventually, but i'm thinking of ourselves against them especially, that tactic has worked a treat over the last few years - maybe the rest of the league just don't have the defensive structure we have?

The channel to so speak is easy to shut down, but then you leave a lot more space out wide for a winger to cross or use an overlap. In the 90's all teams defended like that and our wingers/fullbacks had a field day, in the latter years with players becoming more athletic it's become a bit looser, hence why teams have evolved to use the inside spaces more.

Nor the players. We have still been one of the 3-5 best teams in the league throughout that time - and still stacked full of talent. Even on Mourinho's death bed last season, we put a big fight at Anfield and it took a late winner from Shaqiri to get one over us.

Yeah you still need a legitimate threat on the outside to drag the full back out, or the team will just let you have the ball out there. I was arguing this in the summer actually, about why City letting him go was a poor decision.

I think he must play for City to play their best and most effective football. He's great at stretching the pitch so wide, that it allows the likes of the Silvas, De Bruyne more time and space in the middle to pick out passes. Without him the game just becomes too cramped which plays into the hands of a team like Spurs.

 

[He'sRaldo]

Not just between the CB and FB, halfspaces in general are very important all over the pitch.

 

[paraguayo]

i mean to score goals you must attack some sort of space, the teams protect their core more so something has to be left more vulnerable. There are not defensive midfielders in front of that space

 

[Rozay]

This channel is important due to the tactical shift of the last decade, where main goal threats have not necessarily been 9s. Those players don’t want to play centre forward, and obviously cannot cause maximum damage from the touch line. These players, depending on their strongest foot, have combined the 9 and 7 or the 9 and 11, and naturally operate between the space of the 9 and the 7 or 11.

 

[He'sRaldo]

i mean to score goals you must attack some sort of space, the teams protect their core more so something has to be left more vulnerable. There are not defensive midfielders in front of that space

Except for Liverpool.

 

[Number4.]

over the last 5 years or the versatility has become a more and more important part of the game & players are effectively playing two positions at once, overwhelming players all over the pitch. The clearest example of this at the moment is Liverpool unfortunately. The full backs act as both defenders and wingers, the wingers act as strikers and cover for fullbacks, Striker (firmino in their case) drops back into centre midfield and the Midfielders act as drop in full backs when required.

You avoid the big gap by drop ins (either CM or winger) in the case of your question. Nailing this is hard and requires the right personel and coaching, but I would wonder how brilliant the likes of Park Ji-sung would be in this kind of system

 

[Brightonian]

CBs move so much less than FBs, so if they're any good the gap between them is very hard to exploit. Obviously it's also not normally possible to get past the outside of a FB without beating them one-on-one. So in any good defence the FB-CB channel is the only weakness. It's not just City, every club that is trying to attack the goal 'vertically' rather than by crossing needs to target that space.

 

[11101]

It's always been one of the hardest things to deal with, especially if you have attacking full backs who can get caught upfield. I remember Neville talking about it once.

It was a bit different years ago when proper wingers went around the outside more and full backs used to try and push them inside on to a weaker foot. Now they actually want to go inside. When the full backs go forward it has always left space, forwards just focus on getting down that channel more now.

I agree with @Dancfc too, if you play with a back 3 when you get caught on a break you're stuck with a back 3 instead of a back 4, because your wing backs will be further forward than a traditional full back.

 

[VorZakone]

Guardiola's Barca was also exceptionally good at exploiting this channel. Helps when you have fecking Xavi to provide the passes.

 

[Berbasbullet]

Guardiola's Barca was also exceptionally good at exploiting this channel. Helps when you have fecking Xavi to provide the passes.

Along with the best movement any attack could ever want.

 

[Adisa]

I have rewatched some of Pep's teams matches over the years.
I have a question, why do his teams have no problems finding that space while other top clubs do?
His wingers always make that run from outside the fullback to inside and they are found time after time. The number of 2 v 1 situations he gets from the position is ridiculous.

 

[Adisa]

Guardiola's Barca was also exceptionally good at exploiting this channel. Helps when you have fecking Xavi to provide the passes.

Didn't even see this post. The same pattern has happened at City to a lesser extent. Has to be something tactical he is doing?
I was watching the game they lost against Madrid in the season Mourinho won the league...fecking Christian Tello was making the same run time after time and getting found.

 

[Hoof the ball]

It's a brilliant approach because it makes the offensive approach so difficult to handle. It used to be that the wide midfielder was the danger, and so the full-back's would get tighter and mark their opposing winger; but with underlapping full-back's and/or CM's running into those channels, the FB doesn't know whether to stick in case of that channel run, or to close down the winger.

If the FB presses the winger, the channel is wide open; if the FB sticks, the winger has an eternity to pick a cross or pass.

 

[Hoof the ball]

I have rewatched some of Pep's teams matches over the years.
I have a question, why do his teams have no problems finding that space while other top clubs do?
His wingers always make that run from outside the fullback to inside and they are found time after time. The number of 2 v 1 situations he gets from the position is ridiculous.

Something he developed whilst at Barca watching basketball.

I don't know if you have watched NBA or any league, for that matter, but a lot of what Pep adapted he took from watching basketball. The premise being that in basketball it's cramped with ten men in one side of the court, and so in basketball you need creative runs and passes to create opportunities. It works so well for Pep because, unlike other teams, he implements it intentionally and has his teams practice it perpetually until it in effect becomes automaton.

 

[Adisa]

Something he developed whilst at Barca watching basketball.

I don't know if you have watched NBA or any league, for that matter, but a lot of what Pep adapted he took from watching basketball. The premise being that in basketball it's cramped with ten men in one side of the court, and so in basketball you need creative runs and passes to create opportunities. It works so well for Pep because, unlike other teams, he implements it intentionally and has his teams practice it perpetually until it in effect becomes automaton.

Something must also be happening in midfield. Often in these situations, the opposing team's winger is nowhere to be found.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Tasty to be exploited.

Other than 5 at the back, 2 CDMs system is probably another best option to guard it.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Something he developed whilst at Barca watching basketball.

Wonder how he imagined it in Basketball..

Basketball usually involves one-on-one markings, so easier to pull opposing players.

In one side of the court,
The SG stuck at the one side wing near touch line, allowing the PG to either run or pass to teammates who will exploit the "channel" between the Centre and the SG. One or two other players is also at the far other side to pull player(s) creating those small spaces in the "channel". The PG may also be instructed to be not positionally at the centre area outside the "box" (whatever it's called in B-ball) but at the other side "channel" so more spaces to create the channel between the SG and Centre.

 

[adexkola]

Wonder how he imagined it in Basketball..

Basketball usually involves one-on-one markings, so easier to pull opposing players.

In one side of the court,
The SG stuck at the one side wing near touch line, allowing the PG to either run or pass to teammates who will exploit the "channel" between the Centre and the SG. One or two other players is also at the far other side to pull player(s) creating those small spaces in the "channel". The PG may also be instructed to be not positionally at the centre area outside the "box" (whatever it's called in B-ball) but at the other side "channel" so more spaces to create the channel between the SG and Centre.

Not often honestly. Basketball is very fluid. Hence screens and traps and shit

 

[Walrus]

Its part of the evolution of football. As tactics improved, teams became more able to form an organised defence and leave a sole striker up front. With only a sole striker left up front, this naturally freed up the opposing FBs to push forward more and help to break down stubborn defences. In turn, this has led to the flanks around the CBs being more exposed.

One could argue that the next move could be away from the traditional Centre Forward into having Wide/Inside Forwards who naturally play out wide and occupy that space, either forcing the FBs to stay back, or the CBs to have to drift out of their natural positions (if the latter, something akin to a Trequartista then moving forward to exploit the space left by the CBs).

Honestly, Liverpool are probably one of the closest to implementing this sort of system, with Firmino regularly playing deeper than Salah and Mane.

I think we have players capable of a similar (but not identical system) - the likes of Rashford, Martial and Greenwood are all strong playing from wide positions.

Hmmm, maybe its time to buy the new Football Manager game...

 

[andersj]

Has it always been the biggest weakness in a football team's defence or is this a relatively new development in football? Using City as an example, it seems like their football is geared towards abusing that channel in a teams defense - they're constantly working the ball into that space. And then on the other side, the the forwards are getting in between the FB and CB to get on the end of a ball.

What's the natural counter against it? Is it why 3 CB formations, have made a bit of comeback because they close up that space more?

The way Liverpool play, with three central midfielder with less attacking responsibility and more responsibility protecting their defenders. They, of course, rely heavily on their fullbacks for creativity. And they are not too worried about the wide space.

Man City also defend more narrow than what is the general concensus. Kyle Walker often tucks in and is more of a RCB while there left back tucks in next to Rodri. This way they create a narrow and compact back five, protecting their attacking players.

Both Liverpool and Man City are willing to have less defenders in wider area. Naturally, as the distance to goal is longer. In the past teams used to defender with four players out wide (right/left winger protecting the right/left back). Today the best teams attack through the middle as this is the area where they can cause most harm. Inversely they also defend heavily through the middle to avoid losing control of this area of the pitch.

Anyone remember the CL-final where Pep kind of took us by surprise, tucking Messi inside as «a false nine»? Suddenly we had Giggs, Carrick, Anderson, Vidic and Rio playing against Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta, Eto, Messi and Henry in the most crucial area of the pitch.

The lesson was that the best teams, the teams that control possession and have the best players, want to spend as much time as possible in the area of the pitch where they are most likely to score goals. And if they on top of that can outnumber you in this area, that is a bonus.

 

[RooneyLegend]

The channel pretty much exists because fullbacks are always attacking. If they weren't, that space wouldn't be there. That's how City avoided being beaten by Pool in their second Pep title winning season. Keeping a back four back at all times.

 

[RooneyLegend]

I have rewatched some of Pep's teams matches over the years.
I have a question, why do his teams have no problems finding that space while other top clubs do?
His wingers always make that run from outside the fullback to inside and they are found time after time. The number of 2 v 1 situations he gets from the position is ridiculous.

Peps system is all about attacking center backs and using the space left by the full back who has to make the decision whether to cover the center back or whether to hold his position and defend that space(due to a full back attacking that space)

Think about a back 4. If the LCB moves forward, the LB has to come inside on the cover, so vacates his space. In that space there normally is an attacker ready to receive the ball and and put in a low and hard ball across goal.

Now think again about a back 4. The LCB moves forward, the LB who has to go on the cover thinks about it and can't go because the opposition full back is attacking that side. Now that opens up that run inside run that you referred to cause the LB can't go cover and the LCB has vacated that space.

How do they achieve this? His team plays the ball in the hole to a player who then attacks the Center backs. Hope all of this makes sense. Wish I could make a digital illustration.

 

[RooneyLegend]

Something he developed whilst at Barca watching basketball.

I don't know if you have watched NBA or any league, for that matter, but a lot of what Pep adapted he took from watching basketball. The premise being that in basketball it's cramped with ten men in one side of the court, and so in basketball you need creative runs and passes to create opportunities. It works so well for Pep because, unlike other teams, he implements it intentionally and has his teams practice it perpetually until it in effect becomes automaton.

The only similarity to basketball is that they execute set moves so in way the decision making is somewhat taken away from the players. Mostly what Pep does is taken from his playing days under Cruyff.

 

[NoPace]

Something he developed whilst at Barca watching basketball.

I don't know if you have watched NBA or any league, for that matter, but a lot of what Pep adapted he took from watching basketball. The premise being that in basketball it's cramped with ten men in one side of the court, and so in basketball you need creative runs and passes to create opportunities. It works so well for Pep because, unlike other teams, he implements it intentionally and has his teams practice it perpetually until it in effect becomes automaton.

This is why quality crossing at fullbacks will be so important I think. They can function the way 3pt shooting spacers do to give the stars room to operate. I don't follow team handball as I am not a European but I bet there's lessons from there too.

Anyways, because of basketball, I expect to see a lot of this type of thing in the coming years to force teams to defend the most space possible.


-----------Speedy 9 who can head the ball------------
--Rightfooted Star----------------Leftfooted star
------------MobileCM----MobileCM----------------------
Crosser-----------LongPasser-----------------Crosser
--------------LongPasser----LongPasser---------------

so teams looking like this to take some random names as archetypes and not just the best players at spots:

-------------------------Calvert-Lewin-----------------
---------------Grealish-----------------------Ziyech----------------
--------------------Goretzka--------Doucore-----------------------------
Max----------------------Paredes------------------------Reece James
--------------------Dunk--------------Bonucci--------------------------

but obviously it's tough to find fullbacks and center backs who can provide quality long passing and still do their job defensively and (out wide) run fast enough to help out.

But yeah a team like the above, you couldn't defend deep against with quality crossers at fullback and long-range shooters able to hit a proper aerial target up top in Calvert-Lewin. That crossing ability should force fullbacks and wider midfielders to push up and leave more space for 1 on 1 dribblers like Grealish and Ziyech to cut inside and attack space. Goretzka and Doucoure run around covering defensively and getting on to 2nd balls. The center backs and Paredes can pop balls over the top so you have to get up on them too.

The negatives here are that you'd have to teach Zelinski and Grealish (and really Calvert-Lewin) to make great runs in behind and the CBs, FBs (not James) and DM are so slow you'd be in trouble on the counter.

But my main point is that good teams should move in this general direction to force teams to press up high against them and that's how they can create space in behind. Otherwise you're letting teams sit 10 behind the ball against you and that's the choice for most poorer teams for a reason.