The curious case of making poor teams look good.

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

I cannot put my finger on why but for about ten years, we have had this habit of letting very average or poor teams perform way above their level.

You know how it goes, a team turns up who were smashed a few weeks back by a top half side and suddenly two or three of their players are playing like Matthaus or De Bruyne. Then the following week ship five goals against a mid table team.

Now players can have good games, teams can have good games, we can play badly or make mistakes and they can capitalise but there is a huge trend where average or poor teams look good or great against us.

We have it when goalkeepers suddenly turn superhuman, like Tom Heaton or Martin Dubravka. Players such as Fellaini, Townsend or Deeney end up looking like we should consider signing them.

I don't see this, or see this nowhere near as much with City, Liverpool or Chelsea. It's a curious case and we need to understand why.

Is it the players? Our shape? Does our formation allow teams to get amongst us? Are we too soft? Are we too flat across midfield so can be walked through with ease? Is it mentality? Do we lack intensity?

It's been the same since the late stages under SAF.

Caveat, this isn't a moan that we should never lose to smaller sides or sides beneath us, it is more that smaller sides seem to have huge joy when playing us and are able to cause us problems and implement their gameplan with ease.

Evra touched on this in the post sky show, we make teams look good and we have to address this as we drop far too many points against bottom half teams.

What do you think is the cause? Is it one thing? Is it a group of things?

 

[Siorac]

We're not a very good team. Teams that aren't very good don't necessarily just lose to the better sides; sometimes they can live with the better teams but lose to the shite ones. That's about it. Teams built for counter-attacking are especially vulnerable to this.

 

[Wumminator]

Every team in the premier league is good. That is the issue. A player like Zaha is a 70 million pound player (before Corona) and they have an incredibly experienced manager managing them.

They also have a fitter and better prepared squad.

As a result they haven’t lost to Man City or Man United on the road in three years.

The problem is in the premier league that sometimes the clubs from like 9th-16th just turn up. It could be for a variety of factors. But when it clicks and they get a few decisions you get a performance like yesterday.

Liverpool often play quite poorly. They get the win anyway because they have ridiculously good forward players. Crystal Palace will cause good teams problems one week and then look awful the next.

The difference between Palace and United is actually quite close. I’d argue the difference between Palace and Chelsea is quite close from a similar perspective. There are no “poor” teams in the premier league, they’re a squad full of proven internationals worth hundreds of millions between them.

 

[Valuedrug]

I think United have just been a fairly tasty proposition for a lot of the low to midlevel teams for a while now.

Most of them have some quality players here and there, good managers etc. particularly since the league exploded with money. And when they play United, its a zero pressure environment for them, because all the expectations are on us to perform.

At the same time, United have been an incoherent mess for a considerable amount of years now. Constantly in transition, the wrong managers, the wrong players, no club-wide drive for footballing success. All the other clubs and their players know this, so our fear factor is almost gone. And yet all the pressure remains on our side because of the clubs history and stature.

Mix that together and you get the perfect set of circumstances for game raising really. A free hit with a solid chance of a big pay off collectively and individually for our opponents.

 

[Leftback99]

We finished a deserved 3rd last season which shows plenty of other teams have the same issue. Maybe these teams just aren't as bad as people perceive.

Yesterday we started with Lindelof, TFM, James, and McTominay. All four arguably wouldn't have made yesterday's Palace side. We need to stop deluding ourselves that many of our players are any better than bottom half standard or worse.

 

[Idxomer]

Look no further than Mark Noble when we play West Ham.

 

[Nickelodeon]

Full backs. Quality FBs transform our attack. Passive, cowardly FBs/tactics do what they did yesterday.

 

[Irrational.]

There’s something about us that causes some of the mediocre teams to give 20-30% more, in particular keepers. We have to accept that we’re just not as intimidating a proposition any more, as say, Liverpool - where teams turn up with the sole purpose of not getting beat too badly. We have lost that fear factor - any team can have a pop and look good, with a good chance of getting something.

 

[Sky1981]

Poor manager who incorrectly measures his team fitness level and match readiness

Poor manager who incorrectly instil preseason.

Poor manager who cant out think roy Hodgson.

The bucks stops at the manager.

Bad reffing aside we dont look like we're capable of winning it.

 

[thebelfastboy]

It's because every single team and manager in the league knows that we are fragile. Yes we have some good forwards and midfielders who on their day can cause anyone problems, but if you basically turn up against us and go toe to toe there's a fair chance we are going to buckle - physically/mentally it doesn't matter.

Same can't be said about Liverpool or City.

 

[UpWithRivers]

Its because we dont have a working system and even with managers that has a system - LVG etc they didnt have the players to implement the system they wanted. Its been stop start with different types of managers, with completely different styles of play coming in and changing the players around trying to get ones that fit but ending up all lop sided. Look at our right wing and how many players we have played there who are not right wingers. Look how we have been trying to shoehorn Pogba into various roles and never finding one that actually works. Even now hes gone back to being asked to be more defensive. Up until last season we had no idea what were Rashfords and Martials best positions. It goes on and on. If you end up swapping and changing and not having a defined tacticts and style of play and putting players in their proper roles its like being in the FA cup. You can come across a shitty team but get beaten. Why? Because they play to a plan, a style of play week in week out. They know subconsciously exactly what they need to do. Where they need to be. And when you get subs or other players in they know it to and slot into the system. So they win.

 

[OT1214]

The fear factor is not there anymore. Teams believe they can get result against us. Not helped by the fact that our players usually crumble when teams press us.

 

[balaks]

Palace are a good team. Most teams in the league are of a good standard and are capable of excellent performances. This is why the Premiership is the best and toughest league in the world.

 

[MiracleInMadrid]

To me, the defending on the first Palace goal last night is the answer to your question. Arrogance. Luke Shaw was watching football without moving, when Palace got the ball down the right side. As if he was certain that Lindelöf was gonna retrieve the ball. And then all of a sudden, Shaw is a couple of meters behind Townsend, who he should cover, and those meters end up being crucial for the cross to reach Townsend.

That shows me, that we aren't displaying the right attitude. As if we think we can half-arse our way to victory. Look at Pool and City when playing these teams. They play with far more tenacity and the right attitude.

The cause of this is hard to determine. We certainly need players on the pitch to prevent this kind of loss of concentration from happening. Too many of our supposed senior players aren't contributing enough to that. Players such as Pogba and De Gea have been here for a long time and must hold a high position within the group of players. But I don't see them bringing any kind of leadership.

The manager and coaching staff also needs to take the blame for some of it as well.

But maybe the problem is even bigger. Maybe our great history is sort of a curse for us. The expectation and the way we see ourselves hasn't changed too much yet, despite us underperforming to that measure for a decade. We have been through several managers and players, and none of them have managed to live up to the expectations.

 

[Cliche Guevara]

Playing out from the back seems a big problem to me.

Whether it’s the keeper or central defenders or whatever, as we play it across our back four we get pushed deeper and deeper into our own box and invite pressure.

Happened a couple of times yesterday before Palace even scored.

We also seem to lack intensity in the first ten minutes where we should be trying to blow teams away and always score a goal.

 

[rcoobc]

Stoke used to be Chelsea's bogey team

 

[2 man midfield]

To an extent it makes sense. They’re going for the win when they play the teams around them and open up more, but when they come to old Trafford they’re well drilled defensive units with 10 behind the ball.

But we do however always seem to come up against prime Gordon banks in the process. I have no idea why.

 

[redshaw]

We're a good scalp for teams, fans and players alike get spurred on for the United fixture. Doesn't matter if United have slipped down a lot the history and notoriety is there. It's an occasion that City Chelsea don't really face as regularly.

 

[Reditus]

On the forums page the title reads The curious case of making poo...

Heh heh

 

[Forevergiggs1]

Most of the issues have already been talked about. We don't have the players to play out from the back yet we insist. Close down Bruno and our creativity goes out the window. Closely mark Martial and he'll normally disappear. We don't tweak our system and our 4-2-3-1 is so predictable. We don't have the fullbacks that offer much in attack but for me the most important thing is we're mentally weak. Most teams that step on our toes and we aren't up for the fight.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

Stoke used to be Chelsea's bogey team

This isn't about bogey teams because it seems the bottom 8 are our bogey teams.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

Palace are a good team. Most teams in the league are of a good standard and are capable of excellent performances. This is why the Premiership is the best and toughest league in the world.

I agree but certain teams seem to dispatch the lower teams more than we do.

Cash in point, Everton versus WBA. I reckon we will perform rather poorly against them but have a really good performance versus City. It seems we cannot play on the front foot and be imaginative/creative.

A poster earlier also said playing out from the back is an issue (I have huge issues with playing out from the back anyway besides...) but we always play to the nearest man and at 50% pace so we are easy marks to dispossess.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

To an extent it makes sense. They’re going for the win when they play the teams around them and open up more, but when they come to old Trafford they’re well drilled defensive units with 10 behind the ball.

But we do however always seem to come up against prime Gordon banks in the process. I have no idea why.

Poor finishing?

 

[Escobar]

Attitude. We dont work hard enough nor push. We need more Keane like attitude

 

[rcoobc]

This isn't about bogey teams because it seems the bottom 8 are our bogey teams.

I'm not disagreeing with the premise that we're poor against the bottom half.of the table, that's will documented. But I would say that:

1) we're hungover from the Europa League
1b) and as such, we had a poor pre-season
2) Palace have started a week earlier than us, and are (now) 2 for 2

I wouldn't be surprised if our season really started after the next international break. Which sucks.

 

[izec]

The coaching staff are the main culprits. You have to know what you are doing, which they don't seem to know. Our players and recruitment are just a reflection of that. We are not a team, but 11 individuals that seem to have met a week ago for the first time to train together.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

I'm not disagreeing with the premise that we're poor against the bottom half.of the table, that's will documented. But I would say that:

1) we're hungover from the Europa League
1b) and as such, we had a poor pre-season
2) Palace have started a week earlier than us, and are (now) 2 for 2

I wouldn't be surprised if our season really started after the next international break. Which sucks.

I agree regarding the Palace result but a wider trend regarding teams is we really let them dominate us.

 

[2 man midfield]

Poor finishing?

It’s a bit of that, but some games we have like 25 shots on target. It’s almost like after a while a mental block develops.

 

[EasyE]

I think United have just been a fairly tasty proposition for a lot of the low to midlevel teams for a while now.

Most of them have some quality players here and there, good managers etc. particularly since the league exploded with money. And when they play United, its a zero pressure environment for them, because all the expectations are on us to perform.

At the same time, United have been an incoherent mess for a considerable amount of years now. Constantly in transition, the wrong managers, the wrong players, no club-wide drive for footballing success. All the other clubs and their players know this, so our fear factor is almost gone. And yet all the pressure remains on our side because of the clubs history and stature.

Mix that together and you get the perfect set of circumstances for game raising really. A free hit with a solid chance of a big pay off collectively and individually for our opponents.

Very well put.

 

[Denis79]

We're not a very good team. Teams that aren't very good don't necessarily just lose to the better sides; sometimes they can live with the better teams but lose to the shite ones. That's about it. Teams built for counter-attacking are especially vulnerable to this.

Tactics plays a huge role in this as well. Even if a team has "lesser" players a "tactical advantage" can swing the game in their favour.

 

[Beachryan]

We start games slowly, we lack intensity, are prone to errors in defense and our attack is reliant on space.

So teams that are happy to come and sit with a deep block system know that:
1. United won't get going until about 25 minutes in
2. United have wide players that can't cross and a central striker that can't head the ball, so as long as you stuff the centre you're okay
3. United's CBs are too slow to succeed when isolated
4. United will turn the ball over with players committed, and then see 3.
5. United won't press your weaker players like 'Pool do, so just relax

Our tactics are custom-built to get the worst out of our attackers and the worst out of our defenders.

 

[passing-wind]

When you consider the telemetry of careers is Ole a much superior manager to Hodgson ? Hodgson pretty much trump's Solskjaer in experience, tactical accomodation and know-how given his time in management. The only area both lack is their capacity to excel at the top of football. The reality is not in how good or bad our team is as man for man Palace aren't on par but how our players are utilised is solely dependant on management.

That's why despite Madrid for years having the best squads in Europe, before Zidane who was prolific In getting them silverware. Doesn't matter if you got the best players when they have no direction there's no progression.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

Very well put.

Totally agree. Term a free hit really makes sense.