The Euro Draft - QF - The Red Viper vs The Stain

[Theon]

Finally, we get to see TRV's team. It's just fabulous. The only criticism I have is Bozsik in that role. I think he lacks the pace to do a box-to-box role effectively and his best position of DLP kinda overlaps with Sammer. Incredible team still.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with Bozsik in that role. He looks great there and Vieira is exactly the type of physical, mobile midfielder you would want as a partner.

Both teams are excellent - but for viper the biggest issue I have is his wingbacks who I'm not sure are the requisite quality for such a system.

I think The Stain has slightly less overall quality in his team. However he doesn't have a specific weakness or issue that jumps out - it all looks quite solid, if unspectacular in places.

 

[Joga Bonito]

To be fair to Müller, he didn't have a problem playing with Seeler, not at all. I agree that it's not perfect. It's a bit shoehorning big names into the team. They won't hate each other and cause each other problems though.

Ah missed out Seeler but he was someone who was equally comfortable playing as a second-striker and didn't mind dropping deep whilst possessing a keen eye for a pass. Seeler would be a much better partner for Müller here and I just don't see the need for MvB here, only to end up doing Gullit's job. At the end of the day it's not perfect like you've said but it won't lead to a dysfunctional forward line either, just one that's not at its scintillating best I guess.

 

[The Red Viper]

Now, regarding Muller and Van Basten, it may not be an "ideal" pair but they will complement each other quite well. If I had someone like Van Nistelrooy or Pippo or Vieir alongside Muller, I would have agreed but Van Basten was as complete as they come. There have been many strike partnerships in the past which didn't look ideal on paper but worked like a charm on the field. Seeler - Muller is one. Ronaldo - Bobo like Iso mentioned is another. Then we have Ibra - Trezegol for Juventus under Lippi. Batigol - Montella under Capello for Roma in 2000-01 season. Van Basten with his hold-up would keep both the defenders occupied because I can't see either Forster or Puyol alone keeping a peak Van Basten at bay. And, that would free up space to exploit for Muller.

I expect Muller combining with Van Basten and score a goal like this.

 

[The Red Viper]

Ah missed out Seeler but he was someone who was equally comfortable playing as a second-striker and didn't mind dropping deep whilst possessing a keen eye for a pass. Seeler would be a much better partner for Müller here and I just don't see the need for MvB here, only to end up doing Gullit's job. At the end of the day it's not perfect like you've said but it won't lead to a dysfunctional forward line either, just one that's not at its scintillating best I guess.

Don't think we can count Seeler as a second striker really. He was a battering ram who was a beast of a finisher. Similar to Van Basten in the zones he played in but didn't have the technique of Van Basten. Having Van Basten upfront means, the opposition defenders now have another great striker to worry about. So, they have to pick their poison accordingly.

 

[The Stain]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with Bozsik in that role. He looks great there and Vieira is exactly the type of physical, mobile midfielder you would want as a partner.

Both teams are excellent - but for viper the biggest issue I have is his wingbacks who I'm not sure are the requisite quality for such a system.

I think The Stain has slightly less overall quality in his team. However he doesn't have a specific weakness or issue that jumps out - it all looks quite solid, if unspectacular in places.

Sums it up. He does have an overall better team, but as a unit and tactically, i feel i have the edge. His wings will be absolutely torn apart here.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Don't think we can count Seeler as a second striker really. He was a battering ram who was a beast of a finisher. Similar to Van Basten in the zones he played in but didn't have the technique of Van Basten. Having Van Basten upfront means, the opposition defenders now have another great striker to worry about. So, they have to pick their poison accordingly.

He wasn't a pure striker and could play as a second striker/withdrawn forward when required.


Anyway let's not derail the thread with discussions on Seeler

 

[Šjor Bepo]

voted for stain....cant see who will stop his wingers, specially Czibor as he is against by far the weakest player on the pitch in Srna. He wont get much protection from Bozsik and Cannavaro was raped by Henry in Euro final so it doesnt look bright from that side. And when Czibor(and Amancio) looses his marker we will have one of the greatest number nines in Premiership history against 3 short centerbacks. Player that was born to be at the end of the cross + his goal ratio at Euro is great. There are also other routes to goal but this is the easiest one in my opinion.

i like viper midfield but his fullbacks will get little or no protection and i dont rate Srna at all. Alba was fantastic on Euro but he played in possession based team and i can see either of this side dominate the ball so there is questionmark above Alba's head how would he cope against Amancio. As for striker partnership, they could work but you wont get the best out of them so thats a shame.....

 

[antohan]

In fact he himself said, the 1970 World Cup where both Seeler and him played together was his best world cup.

Anyone NOT preferring to play with Seeler would need his head checked. Tremendous player. Miss him I would play another draft just to have him (and then go mental when he doesn't get his fair dues!).

I think the point still stands though in that you have more players that can finish a move than you have creating them. Davids and Zago munch up Rui Costa and it's pretty much game over.

I'm not going to piss about with Q&A as it seems the preferred option is I leave you to it. A brilliant CB pair, a superb midfield, the flanks dominated and shut down for you... I can't see how The Stain could lose this game.

You would be lucky to get a draw but for that you would need to sit deep and soak and I don't think you have the defence to sustain it against that attack.

 

[antohan]

He wasn't a pure striker and could play as a second striker/withdrawn forward when required.


Anyway let's not derail the thread with discussions on Seeler

Why not?

 

[Joga Bonito]

Why not?

I'm all up for a discussion on Seeler but I'm sure the draft managers wouldn't want the thread to be derailed; seeing as Seeler has nothing to do with this match in particular, to be discussed in detail...

 

[antohan]

I'm all up for a discussion on Seeler but I'm sure the draft managers wouldn't want the thread to be derailed; seeing as Seeler has nothing to do with this match in particular, to be discussed in detail...

He has everything to do with this thread (). If only he had played Euros he would start for both teams, it's that simple.

 

[The Stain]

I'm all up for a discussion on Seeler but I'm sure the draft managers wouldn't want the thread to be derailed; seeing as Seeler has nothing to do with this match in particular, to be discussed in detail...

Go ahead, it's interesting.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Davids and Zago munch up Rui Costa and it's pretty much game over.

brutal. But I agree with this. Bozsik is too deep and lacks support to run the game.

 

[Theon]

brutal. But I agree with this. Bozsik is too deep and lacks support to run the game.

How does Bozsik lack support with Sammer, Vieira and Rui Costa all in his vicinity?

And how have you gathered that he is too deep? Surely he can move around the pitch the way he normally does here.

 

[The Stain]

Just because i love what Zidane was all about; if you haven't watched the video of him vs Portugal 2000, it's in the player bio's. Includes this gem from his MoTM performance. He was MoTM in the quarter vs Spain too, btw. Video includes this gem:

Spoiler

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

How does Bozsik lack support with Sammer, Vieira and Rui Costa all in his vicinity?

And how have you gathered that he is too deep? Surely he can move around the pitch the way he normally does here.

One thing Bozsik lacked is pace. He would move around, but I think his passing options are very limited. Rui Costa is against 2 good midfielders, so passing to him would just take the play into traffic. The optimal route is through the wings and though I like them, don't think they are good enough to be a primary supply route.

They have Vieira for defence support box-to-box. A better partner would be a midfield playmaker, a la Suarez (ESP) or Schuster type player there. I'm not sure if Bozsik can play that role.

 

[The Red Viper]

Anyone NOT preferring to play with Seeler would need his head checked. Tremendous player. Miss him I would play another draft just to have him (and then go mental when he doesn't get his fair dues!).

I think the point still stands though in that you have more players that can finish a move than you have creating them. Davids and Zago munch up Rui Costa and it's pretty much game over.

I'm not going to piss about with Q&A as it seems the preferred option is I leave you to it. A brilliant CB pair, a superb midfield, the flanks dominated and shut down for you... I can't see how The Stain could lose this game.

You would be lucky to get a draw but for that you would need to sit deep and soak and I don't think you have the defence to sustain it against that attack.

Except Rui Costa isn't the only one who is creating. I have two wing-backs who are very good at creating. Srna was/is a brilliant crosser of the ball and in Van Basten and Muller, he has two all-time great finishers/headers of the ball to aim at. Same with Alba, who puts in low drilled crosses more than aerial ones. Then, there are Bozsik and also Sammer in the team who can create.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Zidane and Shearer up front centrally with Amancio-Thuram and Czibor-Zambrotta on the flanks just has a much clearer goal threat. I don't think Alba/Srna compensates this by being defensively rock solid as The Stains threat out wide is completely dominant. I can't see van Basten and Müller make up the difference here, I don't think they look great as a partnership either considering it is a 5-3-2 they are playing.

Alba/Srna can't handle providing the width alone, that is something even top wingers fails to do and they'd really need the strikers to be much more suited at playing out wide as well. The offensive version 3-5-2 with two real wide midfielders would probably be better with that striker partnership as if they are supplied enough balls they'd be an unstoppable force more or less.

Muller and van Basten would be a handful on crosses as well where they complement each other quite well.

 

[The Red Viper]

One thing Bozsik lacked is pace. He would move around, but I think his passing options are very limited. Rui Costa is against 2 good midfielders, so passing to him would just take the play into traffic. The optimal route is through the wings and though I like them, don't think they are good enough to be a primary supply route.

They have Vieira for defence support box-to-box. A better partner would be a midfield playmaker, a la Suarez (ESP) or Schuster type player there. I'm not sure if Bozsik can play that role.

Vieira used to offer a lot going forward. He wasn't exactly a Mascherano or Deschamps who stayed back. In fact, he used to march forward a lot while playing for French NT. I remember him being the top scorer of a confederations cup around that time. Obviously it wasn't in the Euros, but my point was he wasn't really just someone who stayed back deep. So, once he marches forward, that would leave Rui Costa free as one of Zagorakis or Davids would have to keep track of Vieira. And, not just Vieira. Lets not forget Sammer's impact going forward here. He has a perfect platform here to make his attacking runs.

 

[harms]

Still don't like Shearer-Zidane combo, but if you will get through, you will have so many options

 

[The Red Viper]

Srna and Alba may not be great defenseively but it always fascinates me how the other centre-backs in the three man central defense aren't considered to help out the full-backs. So, it isn't really Czibor - Zambrotta v/s Srna and Amancio - Thuram v/s Alba. Cannavaro and Shesternyov would help Srna and Alba out respectively. Especially Cannavaro in that flank of Srna's.

 

[The Stain]

Vieira used to offer a lot going forward. He wasn't exactly a Mascherano or Deschamps who stayed back. In fact, he used to march forward a lot while playing for French NT. I remember him being the top scorer of a confederations cup around that time. Obviously it wasn't in the Euros, but my point was he wasn't really just someone who stayed back deep. So, once he marches forward, that would leave Rui Costa free as one of Zagorakis or Davids would have to keep track of Vieira. And, not just Vieira. We are forgetting Sammer's impact going forward here and he has a perfect platform here to make his attacking runs.

Despite Vieira being in ToT EURO 2000 i can't remember him having much impact on their run. Will have to look in to it. You're also forgetting that Davids/Zago have been explicitly told to stay back, staying positionally intact in our half, not pressing too much to keep our shape intact. Davids will venture forward at times when in possession and Zago will cover for him. Also, as you can see i've told Thuram to help more centrally to hinder any balls reaching your strikers (Him and Zago will keep Alba ni check). There won't be any opportunity for defence splitting passes. I also switched the positions of my centre backs in game because i wan't Förster (arguably the best man-marker ever) to keep van Basten in his pocket, he has marked Platini out of a game for example.

I just feel i've cut of the supply centrally and am not overly impressed with what your wings will muster up.

Still don't like Shearer-Zidane combo, but if you will get through, you will have so many options

You just have something against the english, don't you?

 

[harms]

You just have something against the english, don't you?

I think that a classic British №9 is different stylistically to a player that will thrive alongside Zidane. But he is a great fit for your wingers, so even without the direct communication between №10 and №9 they can form a dangerous unit.

 

[The Stain]

Scan votes vs manager votes (sort of) so far. Why did you abandon that system @Balu !

 

[Joga Bonito]

Go ahead, it's interesting.

Meh, it's nothing in detail but Seeler or a more suitable second striker (Baggio/Raul/Gullit etc) would have been perfect to partner either of MvB or Müller, esp in bridging the gap between the midfield and attack better whilst helping out Rui Costa against Davids-Zago much more by dropping deep.

 

[Fergus' son]

I really like TRVs team. Difficult team to come up against for him style wide but I still give him the edge.

 

[berbasloth4]

I love what you have done with your tactics @Red viper , I can see it being very dangerous the wing backs aren't the greatest defensively but getting forward they can be a handful but they aren't that great at crossing.. With Rui Costa pulling the strings I can see him picking out gaps when zambrotta gets forward and thuram has to become a centre half..

I have read people worrying about Muller/Van Basten partnership.. My 2 cents on it is that Muller and Van Basten based their careers on being the main goal scorer in all their squads throughout their careers. Teams are built to provide them with service and get the best out of them.. I just don't think you have wide men who can provide the necessary cross as silly as it sounds having Beckham/Figo as a right midfielder or even ashley Cole on the other side I think you are a shoe in.

The Stain your set up is also wonderful making sure you are covered when zambrotta goes to is smart, I think it can work both ways it Thuram gets forward Zambrotta can tuck in??

I don't see a plan to stop Zidane which is suicidal.. If he is given anytime to work his magic spread passes etc. the game is over.. And Shearer up front considering his Euro form is incredible especially with the different methods of service..

For that I will go for stain..

 

[Gio]

I'm not sure if TRV has maximised his upgrades in the last round which means he still has a couple of fairly average players in this context operating down the flanks. Still sensational through the middle, but I get the sense that the Stain's grizzly Juve-style midfield will churn the victory out.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

wiki says Shesternyov was a libero, what did he play in Euro? @harms

 

[harms]

wiki says Shesternyov was a libero, what did he play in Euro? @harms

He played as a sweeper - he wasn't the one to go forward, he was usually the last defender. I'm not sure if this is a good or a bad thing, with Sammer here. I don't think that LCB with Alba as a left wing-back is the best role for him, but he will do alright.

 

[The Red Viper]

Yeah. He wasn't a libero like your Scirea or Beckenbauer or Sammer or Passarella. Shesternyov was similar to Schulz. A defensive minded libero who was great on the ball.

 

[harms]

Every time I go back here I want to change my vote. This game deserves more attention, come on, guys, discuss!

 

[The Stain]

We've been through his wingbacks, how his strikers would work together (similar), limited service to/from Rui Costa, Bozsik not working as boxbox. Questions have been raised over Shesternyov (spelling), his similarities with Sammer. Shearer's come up again. Amancio's performances in the EURO 64. How my mids will "munch up" Rui .

I'd like to know more about Vieira's performance in the EURO 2000 which is his best tournament. How well did he perform? Are his good performances just overshadowed by Zidane/Henry etc?

 

[The Red Viper]

I have already mentioned about my wing-backs. They may not be great defensively but they both are quite good attackingwise. Srna is a brilliant crosser of the ball and Alba with his pace and penetration tore Italian defense to shred in the final of 2012 Euro. The idea that the only mode of service to Van Basten and Muller would be from Rui Costa was ridiculous. Bozsik was a fantastic passer of the ball and Vieira in 2000 Euro was immense in midfield as well. And, lets not forget Sammer.

 

[The Stain]

Doesn't seem to be much to discuss really, he had a solid performance and it was his run that led to Djorkaeff's goal vs Spain in the quarter.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Every time I go back here I want to change my vote. This game deserves more attention, come on, guys, discuss!

Personally I think that Davids-Zagorakis-Förster-Puyol with the defensive midfielders playing defensively and holding shape is great tactically against the mainly narrow threat of van Basten, Muller and Rui Costa. Srna and Alba will need to bomb forward merciless to create a threat at all and it will expose space for the drafts best wide threat in Amancio and Czibor who are both top class.

Defensively when Sammer is in the defense - Srna and Alba will be well supported by a centre back - but still that opens up a gap for Zidane to be the main threat in the game while the wide area is still going to be going in The Stain's favour and by quite a margin too.

It does look a tad bit too much reactionary, like TRV has had to plot a lot on how to get his players to somehow work together and suddenly the worst two players in the team have maybe the most important and difficult task ahead of them. To provide width, alone, going forward and to defensively handle the biggest threat from the opponent. I would have preferred seeing Muller up front with a "huge" task ahead of him instead, that is the entire benefit of having players of that class.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

The idea that the only mode of service to Van Basten and Muller would be from Rui Costa was ridiculous. Bozsik was a fantastic passer of the ball and Vieira in 2000 Euro was immense in midfield as well. And, lets not forget Sammer.

They are excellant, but all play through the middle where he has 2 excellent midfielders waiting. It would run into traffic imo. You are much better off having 2 wingers than those wing backs. I like them, but I think they'll end up being your most direct way to goal.

 

[The Stain]

I have already mentioned about my wing-backs. They may not be great defensively but they both are quite good attackingwise. Srna is a brilliant crosser of the ball and Alba with his pace and penetration tore Italian defense to shred in the final of 2012 Euro. The idea that the only mode of service to Van Basten and Muller would be from Rui Costa was ridiculous. Bozsik was a fantastic passer of the ball and Vieira in 2000 Euro was immense in midfield as well. And, lets not forget Sammer.

Doesn't bode well against my wingers, though. Open's up a lot of space especially with your high defensive line. Amancio is only second to Figo (right wing) in this draft and Czibor not far behind Dzajic. My wingers will press your wingbacks (when they have possession) and will have Zambrotta/Thuram (or Zago when Thuram needs to help the central defenders) behind covering.

 

[The Red Viper]

We've been through his wingbacks, how his strikers would work together (similar), limited service to/from Rui Costa, Bozsik not working as boxbox. Questions have been raised over Shesternyov (spelling), his similarities with Sammer. Shearer's come up again. Amancio's performances in the EURO 64. How my mids will "munch up" Rui .

I'd like to know more about Vieira's performance in the EURO 2000 which is his best tournament. How well did he perform? Are his good performances just overshadowed by Zidane/Henry etc?

Vieira was very good that Euros. Forget team of the tournament, which usually has 23 odd players selected in it. Vieira was selected in the best XI by UEFA. His best game that tournament was against Spain, where he was nothing short of brilliant. Shrugged off the likes of Pep and Mendierta off the ball and kept the ball quite well under pressure. Now, I don't have individual highlights of his games then but there were some great plays by him in the attacking end. In the first video, he makes a brilliant run with the ball and finds a good pass to Djorkaeff who scores a great goal past Canizares while in the second video, he makes a great off the ball run and breaks the offside trap of Denmark.

 

[antohan]

Personally I think that Davids-Zagorakis-Förster-Puyol with the defensive midfielders playing defensively and holding shape is great tactically against the mainly narrow threat of van Basten, Muller and Rui Costa.

On his more inspired days @Gio would call that a "magic square of death". His version: Tardelli, Souness, Hansen and Gentile. It was a shame the magic square of death had Nelinho at rightback facing Boniek

But therein lies the issue indeed, it's a rock solid spine against a central threat and little being offered out wide to stretch it.