The Euro Draft - SF - harms vs Joga Bonito

[harms]

Oh fair enough. Also, I think you looked at the pic that harms posted as my formation change but it isn't. It's the one below, which is my change. If you want to change back your vote due to the misunderstanding, it's fine.

ffs, I lost votes even on my Taibi joke

 

[Theon]

Thats what we were hoping for, was a no brainer upgrade for our side. Now its going to be a lot tougher.

Desailly for Deschamps wasn't a no brainer upgrade at all. I think Desailly in defensive midfield is getting significantly overrated and Deschamps Euro credentials cannot be questioned. He looks fine there as well, Deschamps already combines to make a voter friendly midfield.

Your defence is pretty weak though, the no brainer upgrade is back there.

 

[harms]

Yes, that's the issue, which could be costly if only you had a bit more oomph upfront (relative to his defence)

I genuinely think that you can not have more oomph upfront that I have. Only Platini is a real upgrade on Meazza (and, well, this is Meazza that was named the best Italian football player ever for his performances), and I wouldn't trade Sarosi for MVB/Müller or Dzajic for whoever, I have more oomph and individual quality in my attack and they will work brilliantly together.

 

[Joga Bonito]

I actually give him more credit than that, but taking your Conte: do you really think Suárez was what that midfield needed next to a Conte?

It's a bit fallacious though as Pluskal ain't a Conte. In fact, he would make a very complementary mudfield pair, but with Platini in there I get the feeling a different sortof player would be a better fit.

Just saw this. Could you expand on this please? I thought a limited but steely DM would have been the most ideal to supplement the creative yet industrious Suárez and Platini, without interfering in anyway.

ffs, I lost votes even on my Taibi joke

It's all right he changed his vote back to you after Balu and I pointed it out.

 

[Gio]

Gone for Harms. I'm not sold of the balance of Joga's midfield trio and, with fantastic quality everywhere else on the park, that's the deal-breaker for me.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Gone for Harms. I'm not sold of the balance of Joga's midfield trio and, with fantastic quality everywhere else on the park, that's the deal-breaker for me.

What do you think is off about it mate?

 

[Gio]

What do you think is off about it mate?

Pluskal looks over-burdened with work to me.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Pluskal looks over-burdened with work to me.

I think you might be underestimating Suárez's workrate and defensive ability here. I will just quote the earlier post I made about the Suárez-Platini compatibility issues and his defensive work rate. Would recommend you to watch the GIF compilation I made of Suárez's performance in the Euro 1964 final which contains a lot of his defensive work,

I'd have to strongly disagree with the bolded claim. He is absolutely what I needed in my midfield. Firstly I needed someone who could dovetail with Platini without having any of the ball hogging and ego-clash issues and also without requiring his team mates to be subservient on the ball to him - ala Giresse for eg. Secondly, I preferably needed someone who could play as a CM-AM hybrid with defensive nous and tactical nous in the CM phase in combination with the dribbling, creativity, link-up play and ability to transition into an AM and also pose a threat higher up the pitch when Platini drops deep, in the AM phase. Suarez gives me all that and then some. Basically, quality and a phenomenally well-rounded game without being a player who needs others to be subservient on the ball to him.

It all does sound like too much, I understand but hey judge him for yourself.

Suarez at the Euros. (CLICK FOR SUAREZ'S EURO COMPILATION)

Just look at him - he is as complete as they come. Intercepting balls, playing long balls from a deeper area, going forward intelligently only when it was required to supplement Pareda and Amancio - instead of being an unwanted presence hindering his attacking players, tackling, dribbling from out wide, playing 1-2s and most importantly being where the situation needs him to be. He wasn't hogging the ball, solely playing one-twos/passes like a Pirlo/Xavi, he wasn't purely attacking/dribbling like an AM and he wasn't just doing defensive work like a pure DM. He was doing all off the above in fine balance. Seriously, he is one of the most tactically accomplished, malleable and complete players of all time and people criminally seem to overlook quite a few of his qualities. There are a few players that you watch and you think - now there is a tactical mastermind at work like Xavi/Scholes etc. Suarez was exactly that but an all-round package as opposed to his average playmaking contemporaries. You could place 10 dogs or 10 Maradonas around him and he'll still function beautifully.

I personally abhor it when 2 ill-suited playmakers get shoehorned into a system but it couldn't be further from the case here. There just couldn't be a better fit for my tactics or a more complementary partner for Platini than El Arquitecto with the ravenous Elkenigge ahead of them. I really wish I could upload the whole match, just so you guys can see how complete a tactical performance it was.

 

[Theon]

Pluskal looks over-burdened with work to me.

I actually agree with this Joga.

Also, as much as I think Desailly is getting overrated as a midfielder - particularly in the context of this draft - I preferred the previous formation for the reason Gio highlights. I think Desailly is more use in midfield in this game, as it looks a bit lightweight without him.

 

[Joga Bonito]

I actually agree with this Joga.

Also, as much as I think Desailly is getting overrated as a midfielder - particularly in the context of this draft - I preferred the previous formation for the reason Gio highlights. I think Desailly is more use in midfield in this game, as it looks a bit lightweight without him.

I understand what you are both getting at (2 talented on the ball players with one DM seems a bit off) but Suárez is key to pulling this off and he is capable doing his fair share of defensive work and tracking back to make it function seamlessly off the ball. For instance, he was more or less playing in a midfield duo of sorts with Bedin at this stage for La Grande's Inter and was more than holding his own in that Catenaccio side from a defensive perspective. He went through a drastic tactical makeover from a goalscoring attacking midfielder who averaged 1 in 2 games for Barca, to a cultured deep midfielder with plenty of defensive ability and tactical nous, under the tutelage of Helenio Herrera for Inter.

Suárez - "The Italian league had a reputation for being more defensive than it really was. Even so, teams' first priority was not to concede any goals and I came from a place with a different mindset," said the 74-year-old, on the contrast between Spanish and Italian football.

"At Barcelona I played as a goalscoring midfielder but (at Inter) I had to change for the good of the team and to win titles. At the end of the day, I think I was so successful because I made so many sacrifices for a sport I loved."

If you watch the small compilation that I made of Suárez from the Euro 1964 final, you'd see that this was a player who was not only oozing class on the ball but was also defensively remarkable and extremely tactically intelligent. I do think Suárez and Pluskal will be comfortable against van Moer and Schuster here in this set-up.

 

[harms]

If you watch the small compilation that I made of Suárez from the Euro 1964 final, you'd see that this was a player who was not only oozing class on the ball but was also defensively remarkable and extremely tactically intelligent. I do think Suárez and Pluskal will be comfortable against van Moer and Schuster here in this set-up.

It's not 2 versus 2, I have Voronin there also and Meazza will contribute in midfield like Platini will.

 

[Joga Bonito]

It's not 2 versus 2, I have Voronin there also and Meazza will contribute in midfield like Platini will.

It's more of a 3v3 in midfield with Voronin-van Moer-Schuster vs Platini-Suárez-Pluskal. Now Meazza is more of a forward who will be roaming around the channels and the central areas, where he will encounter the mobile Desailly and most certainly won't be contributing to the midfield like Platini.

 

[Annahnomoss]

It's not 2 versus 2, I have Voronin there also and Meazza will contribute in midfield like Platini will.

Didn't want to post it too early but this is my issue with the side. Meazza is an inside right, he just scored 3 goals in 2 World Cups and still he was a terrific player and maybe the best of the era. He will naturally drop deep and want to be in the centre of things not out wide providing width - even if he can drift wide.

Nothing wrong with that - but it leads to Schuster and Brehme having to play a very offensive game to provide the width for the team to stretch out Joga's defense. Otherwise they can tuck inside and suffocate the space very easily.

Then on the other side you have Facchetti who is a wing back, there is just no two ways about it, he's not a full back. If you want him playing anywhere near his peak then you let him attack and you have to do that. He's not someone like Ashley Cole who you can give defensive instructions in one game and more attacking in the other and he'd be equally good at both. Facchetti is imbalanced as a full back, an absolute menace going forward and that is what he had to do with Burgnich playing his RB as a RCB.

So both sides will have very attacking full backs and Rummenigge and Elkjaer being positioned out wide here will play some beautiful football. I've watched both extensively and I've really come to appreciate Elkjaer more, his pace and dribbling is a lot better than I previously gave him credit for.

I would have liked to see some libero, or a third centre back to allow Brehme/Facchetti to go forward and provide that width without looking exposed on the back.

 

[harms]

10 minutes to go, 8 votes to change the result...

Good game, @Joga Bonito, and good luck in the final!

 

[antohan]

Desailly for Deschamps wasn't a no brainer upgrade at all. I think Desailly in defensive midfield is getting significantly overrated and Deschamps Euro credentials cannot be questioned. He looks fine there as well, Deschamps already combines to make a voter friendly midfield.

Your defence is pretty weak though, the no brainer upgrade is back there.

I agree with your views on Deschamps (horrifically underrated) and the overall logic that it is the defence that can get the most sizeable improvement. The issue is when you look at which nationalities he has maxed out (France, Germany, Netherlands) and Joga having all the Italians, you start running out of options pretty quickly.

Desailly would have marginally improved the midfield but his greater capabilities as a defender would be more useful for a defence being stretched out wide and with Platini through the middle.

With that off the table you have to be looking at Durkovic, then Campbell and, with nobody giving any credit to Durkovic's attacking play, I wonder if the one available mean rightback shouldn't be an option.

 

[antohan]

Just saw this. Could you expand on this please? I thought a limited but steely DM would have been the most ideal to supplement the creative yet industrious Suárez and Platini, without interfering in anyway.

You misinterpreted me. Pluskal was absolutely necessary and I think a balanced option next to Suárez (as with Masopust). BUT once you factor in that Platini is there and the midfield you are facing the point (the same one I've made throughout ) was that Platini and Pluskal should have had more of a defensive all-rounder.

Going into the final you will be facing an even stronger midfield so that's the one area I would focus on. Well, not really, as Desailly obviously goes back to midfield to play the same role as he started here: just like he was needed between the lines against Nedved/Iniesta, you will need him there against Gullit/Puskas and Matthäus/Masopust with a back four and Maldini tucking in... feck me, you are well set...

Actually, you can pick Tigana, can't you? Pluskal as Fernández, Tigana box to box, Suárez as Giresse, Platini in his pomp with the right forward players... and Maldini-Desaillly-Moore-Bergomi as a back four... feck me sideways... did you plan for it to end up being France 84 on steroids?

 

[antohan]

Ah no, you can't pick Tigana... Well, you need someone to play Tigana, shouldn't be too hard with the beasts knocking around.

 

[harms]

A good article about my defensive system, by the way, which was laughed at earlier.

 

[antohan]

A good article about my defensive system, by the way, which was laughed at earlier.

Who laughed at staying compact?

 

[harms]

Who laughed at staying compact?

A green smiley was the only response on my comment about how I'll be defending the space and not defending individually against Platini & co

 

[antohan]

A green smiley was the only response on my comment about how I'll be defending the space and not defending individually against Platini & co

From the other manager. The argument was spot on: what sets them apart is their ability to manipulate space, indeed. It sounded a bit wrong to add "not their individual skill" because it sounds like you are denying they had any (they did, clearly) but the striking thing about Joga's frontline is how it can manipulate space. Very much the reason I love his setup while I had issues with crapppy's earlier in this draft as it didn't looks so coherent annd devastating.

 

[Annahnomoss]

From the other manager. The argument was spot on: what sets them apart is their ability to manipulate space, indeed. It sounded a bit wrong to add "not their individual skill" because it sounds like you are denying they had any (they did, clearly) but the striking thing about Joga's frontline is how it can manipulate space. Very much the reason I love his setup while I had issues with crapppy's earlier in this draft as it didn't looks so coherent annd devastating.

Probably the best Platini setup I've seen in these drafts(the front three) except the obvious use of pre-existing partnerships. Really has it all, fantastic width and individual flair while still providing those very fine tactical roles which guarantees Platini is the star of the show.

 

[Cutch]

Just gettin them tags @antohan. Good fun Poor Eyzaguirre

 

[Joga Bonito]

10 minutes to go, 8 votes to change the result...

Good game, @Joga Bonito, and good luck in the final!

Cheers mate. Scoreline flatters me a lot, should have been a lot closer I feel. Great draft by you as always.