The Fifth Redcafe Sheep Draft Round 1 - Enigma_87 vs. Edgar Allan Pillow

[Enigma_87]

Not on Lahm's position...but his role. A pivot DM is necessary for a 4-3-3...but having to support Finnan against Cristiano is a bit too much to ask. And we are not really seeing a possing team here. Between Cristiano and Nedved, Lahm will be overwhelmed.

Yet you are putting a player that was relegated twice in 5 seasons, with two different teams, against Cruyff as a DM.

 

[antohan]

I meant that he's a superb player, who possess a great versatility and will certainly factor in the defensive phase for Edgar, but he won't do all the midfield work by himself. He had players like Simeone and Almeyda at Lazio, Davids and Tacchinardi at Juve, etc. Becks excelled on the right and in this role he will have a lot of defensive work here as well, considering both of them are up against Vidal and Ballack. Nedved will have a good game no doubt, but the anchor that Edgar badly needs to stitch up that midfield is a player who had 5 pro seasons under his belt with the following results:

07/08 - relegated with Birmingham.
08/09 - 13th with Bolton
09/10 - 14th with Bolton
10/11 - 14th with Bolton
11/12 - Bolton are relegated.

And he's up against Cruyff in the attacking phase when Krol will move forward...

So it's nothing to do with Nedved.

Cruyff will definitely have freedom to operate, but is a bit lonely, more so than Cristiano roasting Finnan with Nedved down the inside left channel and RvN and Cabrera in the box.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

but he won't do all the midfield work by himself

Why would he want to do that. He has Evra running up and down the flank and Cristiano ahead of him Plus good support from Becks in addition to whatever Muamba offers.

Evra > Finnan. I already have an advantage on that flank. Neither Ortiz nor Ballack will drift wide defensively and when I add Nedved and Cristiano to the mix, you'll be sorely overwhelmed there.

 

[Enigma_87]

So it's nothing to do with Nedved.

Cruyff will definitely have freedom to operate, but is a bit lonely, more so than Cristiano roasting Finnan with Nedved down the inside left channel and RvN and Cabrera in the box.

For Nedved he played in a 4-4-2 at Lazio, not as a CM in a 4-3-3. The response was in relation to Edgar's comments in terms of Lahm playing as a DM.

Not exactly lonely tho as Lahm is there to counter that flank. Edgar won't see most of the ball either so his opportunities will be limited. A rather unknown keeper also doesn't help considering Vidal and Ballack would a pop outside the box.

I don't see Cruyff being lonely at all. Vidal and Ballack are well known offensive threats with the ball, Ortiz also has a great goalscoring record. Gomez will keep the CB's honest and create space for our midfielders at the edge of the box, Krol moving forward is also a force on the left wing..

 

[Enigma_87]

Why would he want to do that. He has Evra running up and down the flank and Cristiano ahead of him Plus good support from Becks in addition to whatever Muamba offers.

Evra > Finnan. I already have an advantage on that flank. Neither Ortiz nor Ballack will drift wide defensively and when I add Nedved and Cristiano to the mix, you'll be sorely overwhelmed there.

Overwhelmed how? I have two defensive players in Lahm and Finnan who are minding the counter. You won't get most of the ball as you already admitted on the last page. Who is going to support Muamba against Cruyff? What happens when Ballack and Vidal move forward?

Finnan is not the best player on the park by far, but at least he has solid credentials being a regular in a side that made it to 2 CL finals.

Muamba is head and shoulders the worst player on the pitch playing the most important role in your team.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Overwhelmed how? I have two defensive players in Lahm and Finnan who are minding the counter. You won't get most of the ball as you already admitted on the last page. Who is going to support Muamba against Cruyff? What happens when Ballack and Vidal move forward?

When Finnan gets beaten (and he will repeatedly), he'll pull both Godin and Lahm out of position and against a player of RvNs caliber that is just deadly.

Lahm is no superman. You have Evra flanking, Cristino cutting in and Nedved dictating from middle with his brilliant passing. Lahm has no hope of ever containing that. Playing Finnan against Cristiano is a disaster. A direct route to goal.

A quick dribble, get past Finnan, shoot. GOAL! It's just that easy for Cristiano. Lahm can't do nothing against that. For you, Cruyff will get the better off Muamba, but then I sport an intact and stellar back 4 behind Muamba.

Possession won't matter much in this game. If peak Cristiano gets 4 or 5 chances (which he will) I'll end up with 2 or 3 goals out of them.

 

[Enigma_87]

When Finnan gets beaten (and he will repeatedly), he'll pull both Godin and Lahm out of position and against a player of RvNs caliber that is just deadly.

Lahm is no superman. You have Evra flanking, Cristino cutting in and Nedved dictating from middle with his brilliant passing. Lahm has no hope of ever containing that. Playing Finnan against Cristiano is a disaster. A direct route to goal.

A quick dribble, get past Finnan, shoot. GOAL! It's just that easy for Cristiano. Lahm can't do nothing against that. For you, Cruyff will get the better off Muamba, but then I sport an intact and stellar back 4 behind Muamba.

If you want to have Finnan beaten repeatedly you first want to get the ball to him. With Muamba and Nedved/Becks playing auxiliary roles you won't create all those chances. From that side you have Godin and Lahm.

Flip the other side. Cruyff will destroy Muamba with Becks(not the best outlet to defend centrally and help), Nedved minding Vidal and Ballack, Amoros minding Krol and a keeper whose best credentials is starting the 62 WC and conceding 6 goals in three matches.

 

[antohan]

For Nedved he played in a 4-4-2 at Lazio, not as a CM in a 4-3-3.

His role in that 4-4-2 and his characteristics make him a more credible LCM in a three than most dedicated CMs in other setups.

A rather unknown keeper also doesn't help considering Vidal and Ballack would a pop outside the box.

Not marketing wise, no. But them having a pop should be assessed on their merits, not some misguided assumption one of the top club sides in world football (however much I hate to say it) would have a butterfingers in goal for over a decade.

 

[Enigma_87]

A bit from the man between the sticks:

One thing Julio Cesar is excellent at is his reflexes and he won't be beaten that easily from range as Edgar is making out to be...

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Nedved/Becks playing auxiliary roles you won't create all those chances. From that side you have Godin and Lahm.

Really? Between Evra and Nedved (Or Amoros and Beckham), you really think I cannot move a ball up a flank? Muamba is a non factor when I move up flanks....It's a straightforward (and easy) route to your defence.

Neither of Ballack/Vidal are comfortable out wide as Nedved/Beckham. I can move the ball across both flanks far better than your team can.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

There really is no need for this, but Cristiano stopped by Finnan and part time Lahm, esp when he has Evra behind him is simply not happening!

 

[Enigma_87]

His role in that 4-4-2 and his characteristics make him a more credible LCM in a three than most dedicated CMs in other setups.

which also makes Lahm credible in his role here as well don't you agree? The argument was related to whom paired Nedved not Nedved himself incapable of playing in a LCM role.

Not marketing wise, no. But them having a pop should be assessed on their merits, not some misguided assumption one of the top club sides in world football (however much I hate to say it) would have a butterfingers in goal for over a decade.

But you also have to compare what the two keepers achieved and the level and recognition they received. If you know well Sosa and think he's better than Cesar I can see your point, but you can have it both ways - putting a rather unknown keeper against well known midfield threats and goalscorers like Cruyff, Gomez, Ortiz, etc should be counted as weakness?

Muamba is comfortably the worst player on the park in the most important role. I don't see Edgar's midfield functioning well due to exactly that, it's like playing with a man down considering who they are facing in the middle of the park.

 

[Enigma_87]

Really? Between Evra and Nedved (Or Amoros and Beckham), you really think I cannot move a ball up a flank? Muamba is a non factor when I move up flanks....It's a straightforward (and easy) route to your defence.

Neither of Ballack/Vidal are comfortable out wide as Nedved/Beckham. I can move the ball across both flanks far better than your team can.

Mozer and Godin are excellent in the air so that threat is well covered.

Who is going to take the ball out of your defence? Both your CB's are not well known ball playing CB's and the other is Muamba...

The man linking your defence with your midfield is the worst player on the pitch.

Your midfield will be overran and your forwards - 2 #9's and Cristiano who will also hardly help will be not of a much use either.

If you go with sending the ball wide and then crossing it in the box we have two CB who excel at just that - getting the better position and clearing it away.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@crappycraperson @idmanager @Šjor Bepo @mazhar13 @harms @Lord SInister @prath92

Some points that may sway your decisions:

My Defensive Line:

I have a super strong defensive line...who are facing relatively underwhelming forwards in Ortiz and Gomez. Agree that Cruyff vs Muamba will go to Engima, but then he still has to beat my defensive line.

Finnan is a weak spot and will destabilize his defensive line. Lahm and Godin have to pull out to support Finnan causing imbalance I will exploit.

Superiority in flanks:

Evra and Amoros are stellar in their attacking contribution and providing width. They have support of Beckham and Nedved who are comfortable inside and outside. I can move the ball easily straight to his defence. Neither Ballack not Vidal are wide players. He has to navigate a packed midfield to get to my defence.

He has no flank presence except Krol. Since Enigma has been biggin up Cruyff vs Muamba, I presume Cruyff will be operating centrally most of the time.

Cristiano vs Finnan:

Everytime Finnan gets beaten, I have a chance to score. One of cristiano's trademark dribbles and there's not much either Lahm not Godin could do about it.

Even if Muamba gets beaten, I have a back 4 solid.

High chance conversion %:

Ruud is the best #9 on pitch and Cristino will cream Finnan. Between these two, I have a very high % of converting chances into goals. Add in two exemplary passers in Beckham and Nedved plus two attacking fullbacks, I will woutscore him.

See above on underwhelming forwards.

 

[antohan]

which also makes Lahm credible in his role here as well don't you agree? The argument was related to whom paired Nedved not Nedved himself incapable of playing in a LCM role.

I've absolutely no idea what link there is between the two. I've no problem with Lahm there except that he looks wasted. Who are your other subs?

But you also have to compare what the two keepers achieved and the level and recognition they received. If you know well Sosa and think he's better than Cesar I can see your point, but you can have it both ways - putting a rather unknown keeper against well known midfield threats and goalscorers like Cruyff, Gomez, Ortiz, etc should be counted as weakness?

I do rate Julio Cesar and rate him higher at (shortish) peak. I see no reason why Sosa should be considered a weakness though.

Muamba is comfortably the worst player on the park in the most important role.

No argument there. I thought he picked him as a sub to avoid a sheep and having to play one. The perils of getting giddy on the opportunity to nab Maradona I guess. The sort of roll of the dice that round was supposed to prompt.

 

[Enigma_87]

@Edgar Allan Pillow why do you keep banging on about Finnan vs Cristiano as an isolated battle when Lahm's role is also mostly exclusively concentrated on neutralizing him in the defensive phase?

When Cruyff gets past Muamba, repeatedly, with us having most of the possession and repeatedly having a numerical advantage in attack who is going to face him? Your CB's will constantly be pulled out of position...

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Both your CB's are not well known ball playing CB's

Both are comfortable on the ball and can get it out of defence. I'm not looking for a Beckenbauer here. Just simple and effective passers and both qualify.

Again you ignore Evra and Amoros. They can move the ball up so easily that I don't really need my CBs to do much in this regard.

On Matosas:

whilst Matosas was a really cultured player on the ball (at times venturing forward to support the midfield) and someone who relied on the reading of the game as opposed to his physicality.

I'd agree, what set him (Matosas) apart from the average Uruguayan defender was him not being the agricultural type at all. Mind you, the same holds for Pereyra.

Physically he did look every bit a mean stopper, which may be the source of confusion.

On Shesternyov:

The best pure defender in the draft, 'Ivan the Terrible' ALBERT SHESTERNYOV, a perfect mixture of sweeper style and beast type defender with brilliant positioning and athleticism

He played as both sweeper and stopper and was a complete defender a la Figueroa

 

[idmanager]

To be very honest, I have already conceded that your defense is pretty good and the better one and so is your attack , when you look at it as a different piece in a jigsaw.

But I can't buy a Nedved+Beckham based 3 man midfield at all.
I understand that both of them are capable of functioning there.
But not both at the same time. You need two quality players alongside who are proper central midfielders capable of matching the opposition for one of Beckham/Nedved to then support centrally.
It doesn't have to be Matthaus and Davids. Even a Vidal and Deschamps MF would do to then include Beckham/Nedved into the mix.

But Nedved+Beckham all alone simply won't work IMO. It will be way too easy to get past that midfield and from the football I have watched, that only results in one outcome.
I haven't even added Muamba to the mix.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@Edgar Allan Pillow why do you keep banging on about Finnan vs Cristiano as an isolated battle when Lahm's role is also mostly exclusively concentrated on neutralizing him in the defensive phase?

When Muamba gets past Muamba, repeatedly, with us having most of the possession and repeatedly having a numerical advantage in attack who is going to face him? Your CB's will constantly be pulled out of position...

That's my biggest advantage. I know it's Muamba, but that takes some special skill, lol.

Fwiw, The battle is between Evra vs Finnan. Cristiano will not be marked out by Finnan.

 

[Enigma_87]

I've absolutely no idea what link there is between the two. I've no problem with Lahm there except that he looks wasted. Who are your other subs?

sheep and Rijkaard and his father The only option was Rijkaard at DM and fielding his father up top, but that, like the Maradona pick would most probably leave me with a man down and IMO that's worse, especially in important position as CF. Just like fielding your worst player in DM role

I do rate Julio Cesar and rate him higher at (shortish) peak. I see no reason why Sosa should be considered a weakness though.

I'm bringing it up as there is another advantage for us and he'd need a world class goalkeeper to stop the opportunities Vidal and Ballack will get outside the box.

No argument there. I thought he picked him as a sub to avoid a sheep and having to play one. The perils of getting giddy on the opportunity to nab Maradona I guess. The sort of roll of the dice that round was supposed to prompt.

yeah, but that position is probably the most important for Edgar here. It links the defence with midfield. He isn't playing with a Beckenbauer type of CB who will push up, take the ball in midfield and start the attack. It's just the most glaring weakness exposed on the pitch.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

To be very honest, I have already conceded that your defense is pretty good and the better one and so is your attack , when you look at it as a different piece in a jigsaw.

But I can't buy a Nedved=Beckham based 3 man midfield at all.
I understand that both of them are capable of functioning there.
But not both at the same time. You need two quality players alongside who are proper central midfielders capable of matching to the opposition for one of them to then support centrally.
It doesn't have to be Matthaus and Davids. Even a Vidal and Deschamps would do.

But Nedved+Beckham simply won't work IMO. It will be way too easy to get past that midfield and from the football I have watched, that only results in one outcome.

Fair enough.

I believe to be a fully dynamic duo. Defensively good, high workrate, versatile inside out. Can't really think of why they won't work. If I have maybe Rijkaard instead of Muamba there, it'd be perfect.

 

[idmanager]

Fair enough.

I believe to be a fully dynamic duo. Defensively good, high workrate, versatile inside out. Can't really think of why they won't work. If I have maybe Rijkaard instead of Muamba there, it'd be perfect.

I wouldn't call it perfect, but a Makelele (cc: @harms ) or Rijkaard or even Stielike could have made it way more functional.

 

[Enigma_87]

Both are comfortable on the ball and can get it out of defence. I'm not looking for a Beckenbauer here. Just simple and effective passers and both qualify.

Again you ignore Evra and Amoros. They can move the ball up so easily that I don't really need my CBs to do much in this regard.

On Matosas:





On Shesternyov:

Simple and effective won't work what you are trying to do here. You need couple of passes to get the ball out of defence and you won't get that time on the ball.

Again your plan to cross the ball from the flank isn't exactly playing to my CB weaknesses. Both are excellent in the air.

Shesternyov is a top class defender but again not the ball playing type from what I've see on him.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

sheep and Rijkaard and his father

I have no idea why you didn't play them. I was expecting you to go...

........Herman...Gomez/Ortiz
...........Cruyff..............
...Vidal...........Ballack....
...........Rijkaard............
Krol...Mozer...Godin...Lahm

Lahm/Godin takes care of Cristiano, Cruyff vs Muamba get more limelight and that should more cover the underwhelming forwards. I didn't expect to be arguing this much....only you hand me Cristiano vs Finnan to bang about on a silver platter

 

[harms]

I have no idea why you didn't play them. I was expecting you to go...

........Herman...Gomez/Ortiz
...........Cruyff..............
...Vidal...........Ballack....
...........Rijkaard............
Krol...Mozer...Godin...Lahm

Lahm/Godin takes care of Cristiano, Cruyff vs Muamba get more limelight and that should more cover the underwhelming forwards. I didn't expect to be arguing this much....only you hand me Cristiano vs Finnan to bang about on a silver platter

Yeah, looks way better

 

[Enigma_87]

That's my biggest advantage. I know it's Muamba, but that takes some special skill, lol.

Fwiw, The battle is between Evra vs Finnan. Cristiano will not be marked out by Finnan.

Has a top class name tho - Muamba. Very catchy.

Evra vs Finnan won't happen that regularly as you think mate.

 

[antohan]

I wouldn't call it perfect, but a Makelele (cc: @harms ) or Rijkaard or even Stielike could have made it way more functional.

Edgar is completely incapable of picking Stielike. He has had setups where he would be absolutely perfect time and again and just refuses to even look into him.

 

[Enigma_87]

I have no idea why you didn't play them. I was expecting you to go...

........Herman...Gomez/Ortiz
...........Cruyff..............
...Vidal...........Ballack....
...........Rijkaard............
Krol...Mozer...Godin...Lahm

Lahm/Godin takes care of Cristiano, Cruyff vs Muamba get more limelight and that should more cover the underwhelming forwards. I didn't expect to be arguing this much....only you hand me Cristiano vs Finnan to bang about on a silver platter

For the same reason you didn't start Maradona - I didn't want to start with a man down

That's of course the plan if I go through but I think you got that already..

Gomez is still much better option as a CF and actually had very good credentials when needed to put the ball in the net. Herman on the other hand...

I need to counter the Cristiano threat so Lahm and Finnan from that side with also Godin as a RCB was the best option for me. Especially when you were going to play with 2 forwards yourself(expected a 4-4-2)..

 

[Enigma_87]

Edgar is completely incapable of picking Stielike. He has had setups where he would be absolutely perfect time and again and just refuses to even look into him.

I'm fairly sure he just picked Sosa without knowing much about him,apart from being a keeper

Stielike would've been great for him, but he keeps passing him over.

 

[antohan]

sheep and Rijkaard and his father The only option was Rijkaard at DM and fielding his father up top, but that, like the Maradona pick would most probably leave me with a man down and IMO that's worse, especially in important position as CF. Just like fielding your worst player in DM role

Is he that impossible to sell? I'm not sure you are getting much better from Mario Gómez and if it means getting a GOAT like Rijkaard on the pitch and Lahm in peak role and form I'd do it.

 

[Enigma_87]

Is he that impossible to sell? I'm not sure you are getting much better from Mario Gómez and if it means getting a GOAT like Rijkaard on the pitch and Lahm in peak role and form I'd do it.

Mate, he was playing in the Surinamese league, then moved to the newly formed eredivisie but was apparently so bad up top he got moved in midfield and latter in defence. I didn't even found records of him scoring in training - so yeah he was really cack. Think he even took "maternity" leave at the end of his career to focus on family.

I don't really like bigging up crap players even for the simplest roles as hiding them on the pitch. I'd rather have two utility players that can get a better job done zonally than to put a pile of crap up top.

 

[antohan]

Mate, he was playing in the Surinamese league, then moved to the newly formed eredivisie but was apparently so bad up top he got moved in midfield and latter in defence. I didn't even found records of him scoring in training - so yeah he was really cack. Think he even took "maternity" leave at the end of his career to focus on family.

I don't really like bigging up crap players even for the simplest roles as hiding them on the pitch. I'd rather have two utility players that can get a better job done zonally than to put a pile of crap up top.

Oh, OK. I thought you had found some good stuff on him, must have been sarcasm then.

 

[Enigma_87]

Oh, OK. I thought you had found some good stuff on him, must have been sarcasm then.

To be perfectly honest I was trying to escape a sheep that round and picked Rijkaard, who apart from that is a GOAT at his position, his father seemed completely useless and no one would look at him..

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Mate, he was playing in the Surinamese league, then moved to the newly formed eredivisie but was apparently so bad up top he got moved in midfield and latter in defence. I didn't even found records of him scoring in training - so yeah he was really cack. Think he even took "maternity" leave at the end of his career to focus on family.

I don't really like bigging up crap players even for the simplest roles as hiding them on the pitch. I'd rather have two utility players that can get a better job done zonally than to put a pile of crap up top.

Good call. It would be doing Finnan and even Muamba a huge disservice to pretend Rijkaard Sr. was on that level when there's absolutely nothing to suggest it's true. Great to see Mozer getting picked too. I remember him by reputation from when I was growing up, and picked him the Americas Draft, and he looks like a proper forgotten gem. Made some GIFs for that previous draft, and both his ball-playing and aerial game seemed brilliant:

Spoiler: Mozer

Spoiler: Mozer Goal

Spoiler: Mozer Goal 2

Spoiler: Mozer Jump

 

[Enigma_87]

Good call. It would be doing Finnan and even Muamba a huge disservice to pretend Rijkaard Sr. was on that level when there's absolutely nothing to suggest it's true. Great to see Mozer getting picked too. I remember him by reputation from when I was growing up, and picked him the Americas Draft, and he looks like a proper forgotten gem. Made some GIFs for that previous draft, and both his ball-playing and aerial game seemed brilliant:

Spoiler: Mozer

Spoiler: Mozer Goal

Spoiler: Mozer Goal 2

Spoiler: Mozer Jump

Awesome stuff Pat, cheers. Mozer was indeed an excellent defender in the late 80's early 90's. Two times CL finalist (another SF with Marseille as well), adored both at Benfica and Marseille, him and Mozer formed a great and fearsome duo in the heart of Marseille defence winning 3 titles on the trot.

He was pretty athletic and as seen from your gifs - huge leap and really fast and agile. A bit underrated when it comes to being mentioned alongside some of the best Brazilian CB's.

 

[Ecstatic]

Nedved's versatility in pictures

It's tactically flexible team. Cristiano vs Finnan is the most damaging mismatch in the match.

I would have preferred this presentation.

 

[Ecstatic]

I don't know what to think about Cabrera and Muamba even if the latter seems to be more famous.

 

[2mufc0]

@Edgar Allan Pillow which version of Cristiano will you be using here?

 

[Enigma_87]

Good game @Edgar Allan Pillow . We both had issues with couple of positions and the sheep for you in 2 positions did it unfortunately, otherwise from the first 8-9 picks I thought you had one of the best teams in the draft.

 

[Ecstatic]

Good game @Edgar Allan Pillow . We both had issues with couple of positions and the sheep for you in 2 positions did it unfortunately, otherwise from the first 8-9 picks I thought you had one of the best teams in the draft.

After 6-7 rounds, he was clearly the favourite #1.

Then, the turning point was his desire to pick Figo (blocked by Gio IIRC) while he already had Beckham-CR7-Nedved-Maradona-RVN instead of targeting a defensive player, which made the rest of the draft more challenging IMO