The Importance of a Single Pivot

simonhch

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I may have missed some details in the tactical nuances of this "analysis", but it strikes me that in order to be truly successful in this modern era of football, a team needs to play with a single pivot and "ball handlers" in midfield, rather than the double pivot so many of our managers have persisted with over the last decade. In that sense I can see why ETH planned to move to a Casemiro, Mount, Bruno midfield this year, and tbf has only had a handful of games to actually try it in. Might also be the case that he bought the wrong player in Mount to implement it, that the players haven't quite taken it on board yet, or that Casemiro isn't up to the job anymore. Either way, we seem to have abandoned it in favour of going back to the double pivot.

If we look back at the CL final winners, all the way back to 2008, a very clear pattern emerges:

2008 - United: Single pivot, Carrick
2009 - Barca: Single pivot, Busquets
2010 - Inter: Single pivot, Cambiasso (albeit with 3 CBs behind him)
2011 - Barca: Single pivot, Busquets
2012 - Chelsea: Single Pivot, Obi Mikel (or did Lampard play as a double?)
2013 - Bayern: Single Pivot, Martinez (with Schweinsteiger helping)
2014 - Madrid: Single pivot, Modric
2015 - Barca: Single pivot, Biscuits again
2016 - Madrid; Single pivot, Casemiro
2017 - Madrid; Single pivot, Casemiro
2018 - Madrid; Single pivot, Casemiro
2019 - Liverpool; Single pivot, Fabinho
2020 - Bayern; Single pivot, Thiago Alcantara
2021 - Chelsea: Single Pivot, Jorginho (a game City famously lost by not playing either of their pivots, Rodri or Fernandinho)
2022 - Madrid; Single pivot, Camavinga
2023 - City: Single pivot, Rodri

There might be one or two there that can be argued. People may say Jorginho wasn't alone, as he had Kante, but my recollection of that set up was that it was Jorginho with Kante and Mount ahead of him, but it could've been a box midfield with Jorginho, Kante, Mount and Havertz. What's interesting about that final is that City were overwhelming favourites but Guardiola left out both of his potential DMs for the game, and they lost control of it.

United have lacked a proper singular DM since the days of Carrick, until Casemiro was signed last season. He was instantly touted as the most influential signing in a decade for how he transformed the team. This year, our huge dip in form has coincided with Casemiro's. What is also interesting, is that if you look down that list, most of the players on it are primarily known for their intelligence on the ball, positional play, and passing ability, rather than their steel. In fact Casemiro, and Cambiasso are the standouts in that regard, and Casemiro had in front of him, two of the greatest "ball handlers" of the modern era.

United, ourselves, have looked great at certain points with Scholes as the deepest player. All of which is to suggest, that what is needed at this club, is a reliable reference point who sits in front of the defence and orchestrates play. So what say you Caf? What is the way forward for us? Is there a set up within our current squad that could work as a single pivot? Is there an affordable player out there we should be gambling on? Any controversial suggestions?
 
simonhch said:
I may have missed some details in the tactical nuances of this "analysis", but it strikes me that in order to be truly successful in this modern era of football, a team needs to play with a single pivot and "ball handlers" in midfield, rather than the double pivot so many of our managers have persisted with over the last decade. In that sense I can see why ETH planned to move to a Casemiro, Mount, Bruno midfield this year, and tbf has only had a handful of games to actually try it in. Might also be the case that he bought the wrong player in Mount to implement it, that the players haven't quite taken it on board yet, or that Casemiro isn't up to the job anymore. Either way, we seem to have abandoned it in favour of going back to the double pivot.

If we look back at the CL final winners, all the way back to 2008, a very clear pattern emerges:

2008 - United: Single pivot, Carrick
2009 - Barca: Single pivot, Busquets
2010 - Inter: Single pivot, Cambiasso (albeit with 3 CBs behind him)
2011 - Barca: Single pivot, Busquets
2012 - Chelsea: Single Pivot, Obi Mikel (or did Lampard play as a double?)
2013 - Bayern: Single Pivot, Martinez (with Schweinsteiger helping)
2014 - Madrid: Single pivot, Modric
2015 - Barca: Single pivot, Biscuits again
2016 - Madrid; Single pivot, Casemiro
2017 - Madrid; Single pivot, Casemiro
2018 - Madrid; Single pivot, Casemiro
2019 - Liverpool; Single pivot, Fabinho
2020 - Bayern; Single pivot, Thiago Alcantara
2021 - Chelsea: Single Pivot, Jorginho (a game City famously lost by not playing either of their pivots, Rodri or Fernandinho)
2022 - Madrid; Single pivot, Camavinga
2023 - City: Single pivot, Rodri

There might be one or two there that can be argued. People may say Jorginho wasn't alone, as he had Kante, but my recollection of that set up was that it was Jorginho with Kante and Mount ahead of him, but it could've been a box midfield with Jorginho, Kante, Mount and Havertz. What's interesting about that final is that City were overwhelming favourites but Guardiola left out both of his potential DMs for the game, and they lost control of it.

United have lacked a proper singular DM since the days of Carrick, until Casemiro was signed last season. He was instantly touted as the most influential signing in a decade for how he transformed the team. This year, our huge dip in form has coincided with Casemiro's. What is also interesting, is that if you look down that list, most of the players on it are primarily known for their intelligence on the ball, positional play, and passing ability, rather than their steel. In fact Casemiro, and Cambiasso are the standouts in that regard, and Casemiro had in front of him, two of the greatest "ball handlers" of the modern era.

United, ourselves, have looked great at certain points with Scholes as the deepest player. All of which is to suggest, that what is needed at this club, is a reliable reference point who sits in front of the defence and orchestrates play. So what say you Caf? What is the way forward for us? Is there a set up within our current squad that could work as a single pivot? Is there an affordable player out there we should be gambling on? Any controversial suggestions?
Click to expand...
Do the same thing for those teams, but list the defenders and goalkeeper. notice a pattern?
 
FriedClams said:
Do the same thing for those teams, but list the defenders and goalkeeper. notice a pattern?
Click to expand...

That they are good? Any team getting to the CL final typically has good players all over the park. But that’s not the point. Why not more teams with a double pivot? Yes, you need quality in every position to be good, let’s take that as a base assumption for getting to a CL final, but beyond that, why the dominance of a single pivot system? Probably because it allows teams to play foot forward, higher up the pitch.
 
simonhch said:
That they are good? Any team getting to the CL final typically has good players all over the park. But that’s not the point. Why not more teams with a double pivot? Yes, you need quality in every position to be good, let’s take that as a base assumption for getting to a CL final, but beyond that, why the dominance of a single pivot system? Probably because it allows teams to play foot forward, higher up the pitch.
Click to expand...
Because CL winning teams typically have a very strong defence, allowing the single pivot, and the forward players to go win the game. But you simply can't do it without a cohesive defensive structure.
 
You are correct, it's just the hardest change to make and, probably, the hardest position to sign a top player in outside of ST.

I'm not sure Real had a single pivot though given where Kroos ended up dropping into, that one I'd say was more like what we did last year with Eriksen but with worse players basically everywhere.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
You are correct, it's just the hardest change to make and, probably, the hardest position to sign a top player in outside of ST.

I'm not sure Real had a single pivot though given where Kroos ended up dropping into, that one I'd say was more like what we did last year with Eriksen but with worse players basically everywhere.
Click to expand...

I think for clarification purposes, what I mean by a single pivot is a sole, dedicated, specialist DM, whose only job is to act as that pivot in front of the defence. One of the other two midfielders often drops in there, but that is opposed to a system where you have two players performing that role permanently, and sometimes neither are specialist DMs.

But yes, it is hard to find one who is quality. Which is probably reflected in the price for someone like Caicedo or Rice.

Even in a microcosm, the importance of the position is so obvious. Just look at City losing all three of the games recently that Rodri was missing for. Or how Liverpool faltered so badly for a season when Fabinho’s form dropped off a cliff.
 
simonhch said:
What's interesting about that final is that City were overwhelming favourites but Guardiola left out both of his potential DMs for the game, and they lost control of it.
Click to expand...

Not to derail your overall thread but this is disproved by the fact that Chelsea beat City in the FA Cup semifinals and the league, before the CL final, even when City had played Rodri (who was out of form in this period) and an aged Fernandinho. It just fits into the "over thinker" narrative.

Back to the main thesis:

I don't think it's true a single pivot is a prerequisite to dominant football. I think you go for it, if and only if you have that excellent DM that doesn't need support, allowing your other midfielders to push up. Casemiro was excellent a few years ago but he's only half decent now and see how he looks ragged.

Otherwise I think it makes sense to have 2 players sitting. In conjunction with fullbacks being more forward, you can still get significant numbers up front.
 
simonhch said:
I think for clarification purposes, what I mean by a single pivot is a sole, dedicated, specialist DM, whose only job is to act as that pivot in front of the defence. One of the other two midfielders often drops in there, but that is opposed to a system where you have two players performing that role permanently, and sometimes neither are specialist DMs.

But yes, it is hard to find one who is quality. Which is probably reflected in the price for someone like Caicedo or Rice.

Even in a microcosm, the importance of the position is so obvious. Just look at City losing all three of the games recently that Rodri was missing for. Or how Liverpool faltered so badly for a season when Fabinho’s form dropped off a cliff.
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It depends how you play - for City everything goes through Rodri and then KDB has been injured as well. They are City's most important players.

For us, I don't really know what we are trying to do to be honest when I watch us play but I think you have to look at the team as a whole, we could sign peak Busquets and he'd just get overrun non stop because the structure isn't there right now. We need a better quality and, most importantly for me, faster player in many positions.
 
Inter 2010 didn't play with three CBs or a single pivot. It was usually a 4-2-3-1 with Cambiasso and Motta behind honorary United player Wesley Sneijder.

Here's Mourinho himself talking about the win over Barcelona in the CL semi:

 
Or just a cohesive plan.

A 'single pivot' is just a standard CDM, there's not such thing as a 'double pivot' it's two holding midfielders,

There's more than one way to win a football game, doesn't need over elaboration, just a cohesive plan will down more times than not
 
Champ said:
Or just a cohesive plan.

A 'single pivot' is just a standard CDM, there's not such thing as a 'double pivot' it's two holding midfielders,

There's more than one way to win a football game, doesn't need over elaboration, just a cohesive plan will down more times than not
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Exactly. One of the double pivot can push up to attack the half space, or a full back can always tuck in to be a midfielder, or the CDM can drop back to play as a CB, or a striker like Kane can drop deep to play as a #10/playmaker. Be water.
 
The truth is that in order to have a genuinely elite side you have to be stacked at keeper, back line, midfield and the front line. You can't have any exploitable weaknesses. Even going back to the treble winning side in 98-99 we had no weaknesses anywhere. Sadly we now have weaknesses everywhere, starting with our calamitous keeper.
 
Every team that didnt win the CL in those years also had a pivot
 
We could do with someone who wants the ball from the defence all the time, not thinking about making space or getting themselves up the pitch, just “give me the fecking ball!”.
 
simonhch said:
I may have missed some details in the tactical nuances of this "analysis", but it strikes me that in order to be truly successful in this modern era of football, a team needs to play with a single pivot and "ball handlers" in midfield, rather than the double pivot so many of our managers have persisted with over the last decade. In that sense I can see why ETH planned to move to a Casemiro, Mount, Bruno midfield this year, and tbf has only had a handful of games to actually try it in. Might also be the case that he bought the wrong player in Mount to implement it, that the players haven't quite taken it on board yet, or that Casemiro isn't up to the job anymore. Either way, we seem to have abandoned it in favour of going back to the double pivot.

If we look back at the CL final winners, all the way back to 2008, a very clear pattern emerges:

2008 - United: Single pivot, Carrick
2009 - Barca: Single pivot, Busquets
2010 - Inter: Single pivot, Cambiasso (albeit with 3 CBs behind him)
2011 - Barca: Single pivot, Busquets
2012 - Chelsea: Single Pivot, Obi Mikel (or did Lampard play as a double?)
2013 - Bayern: Single Pivot, Martinez (with Schweinsteiger helping)
2014 - Madrid: Single pivot, Modric
2015 - Barca: Single pivot, Biscuits again
2016 - Madrid; Single pivot, Casemiro
2017 - Madrid; Single pivot, Casemiro
2018 - Madrid; Single pivot, Casemiro
2019 - Liverpool; Single pivot, Fabinho
2020 - Bayern; Single pivot, Thiago Alcantara
2021 - Chelsea: Single Pivot, Jorginho (a game City famously lost by not playing either of their pivots, Rodri or Fernandinho)
2022 - Madrid; Single pivot, Camavinga
2023 - City: Single pivot, Rodri

There might be one or two there that can be argued. People may say Jorginho wasn't alone, as he had Kante, but my recollection of that set up was that it was Jorginho with Kante and Mount ahead of him, but it could've been a box midfield with Jorginho, Kante, Mount and Havertz. What's interesting about that final is that City were overwhelming favourites but Guardiola left out both of his potential DMs for the game, and they lost control of it.

United have lacked a proper singular DM since the days of Carrick, until Casemiro was signed last season. He was instantly touted as the most influential signing in a decade for how he transformed the team. This year, our huge dip in form has coincided with Casemiro's. What is also interesting, is that if you look down that list, most of the players on it are primarily known for their intelligence on the ball, positional play, and passing ability, rather than their steel. In fact Casemiro, and Cambiasso are the standouts in that regard, and Casemiro had in front of him, two of the greatest "ball handlers" of the modern era.

United, ourselves, have looked great at certain points with Scholes as the deepest player. All of which is to suggest, that what is needed at this club, is a reliable reference point who sits in front of the defence and orchestrates play. So what say you Caf? What is the way forward for us? Is there a set up within our current squad that could work as a single pivot? Is there an affordable player out there we should be gambling on? Any controversial suggestions?
Click to expand...
Single pivots only work in midfields of 3. Ex: Casemiro at RM was teamed up with Modric and Kroos. Busquets at Real was paired with Xavi and Iniesta.

In our case we have 2 players playing ahead of Casemiro who aren't played as classic Midfielders, but rather AMs or Second Strikers(Bruno and Mount). Hence it's not clicking, leaving Case exposed, having a good portion of our fanbase thinking that he is finished.

We saw how to rectify this during the EFL Crystal Palace game: team up Casemiro with a combative CM that is good at recycling possession and winning it back and one that will progress it up the pitch to our front 3. For now having someone like Mejbri/Mainoo and Mount in possession next to Casemiro should set us up for a good start.

Bruno while amazing at times, loses the ball far too frequently in the middle of the park and puts our midfield under a lot of pressure. In the modern game, losing the ball anywhere on the pitch is extremely dangerous because all of the teams rely on pressing, us especially. Losing the ball anywhere on the park leaves us open and exposed, which most of the opo teams have exploited so far.

Since ETH wants us to be a transition team and win the ball high up the pitch, losing possession in the buildup or even transitioning phase, leaves a lot of our players out of position and a lot of gaps that other teams can exploit. That's why having a midfield that is good in possession is essential to the way we play.
 
I'd say some of those examples are stretching it a bit. The whole structure of most of those midfields didn't resemble ours at all.

2022 Real Madrid had Casemiro, flanked by Modric and Kroos. Camavinga was introduced in the PSG tie, the Semi Final and Final, if I recall correctly, and he changed the game. Pretty sure they played more of a double pivot in some games too. This is just off the top of my head so may be wrong on some of this.
 
When you have a very good DM playing two is redundant and only make you less offensive/controlling because you can play someone else there. I guess that's about it really.
 
Everythings just wrong with our midfield.

Casemiro - If we are to play with a single pivot then why get Casemiro. He is not that kind of DM. He is more of the Kante than the Jorginho/Rodri. The sole pivot needs to sit in front of the defense, get the ball from them have good passing or drive the ball into midfield and can play with their back to the opposition. Thats not Casemiro.
Ambrabat - Then you could say Amrabat. He has everything except he can't defend. Tackling/heading is not good enough. Neither is his long balls.
Mount/Bruno - Not midfielders. Mount is definately not an 8. Why the fk would we buy him and play him in the double pivot? Bruno cant keep the ball.

Its all wrong. If we really wanted to play this way we should have bought Rice.
 
Not to say I disagree with the overall message of this thread. But was Carrick really in a single pivot in 2008? He definitely played as the lone DM in some seasons but alongside Scholes, both were fairly deep - Scholes would be the player to drop deep and get the ball off the defence in a lot of cases. In the 2008 final I guess you had Hargreaves RM but tucked in narrow at times. I wouldn't call it a single pivot though
 
A lot of those teams would play with one or two anchors depending the match, with the exception of Guardiola's Barcelona. The real key is having talent and having the team well drilled to interpret what's happening on the pitch.
 
FriedClams said:
Because CL winning teams typically have a very strong defence, allowing the single pivot, and the forward players to go win the game. But you simply can't do it without a cohesive defensive structure.
Click to expand...
You don't think the teams who played in finals with a double pivot had strong defenders?

I think having two pivots just confuses the team and ends up with both gone one way rather than one sitting.
 
Siorac said:
Inter 2010 didn't play with three CBs or a single pivot. It was usually a 4-2-3-1 with Cambiasso and Motta behind honorary United player Wesley Sneijder.

Here's Mourinho himself talking about the win over Barcelona in the CL semi:

Click to expand...

GlasgowCeltic said:
Bayern 2013 are about as 4231 a team as I can remember
Click to expand...
Yes. Would also include Bayern 2020. Those 3 are the most clear-cut examples of successful 4-2-3-1s.

Point is well made though - the 1-2 shape in midfield has been trumping the 2-1 shape for some time now.
 
Gio said:
Yes. Would also include Bayern 2020. Those 3 are the most clear-cut examples of successful 4-2-3-1s.

Point is well made though - the 1-2 shape in midfield has been trumping the 2-1 shape for some time now.
Click to expand...
Bayern has been playing 4231 ever since Robben and Ribéry arrived. The only exception was under Pep when he sometimes played a 4141. Currently Tuchel uses a 4231 that some people interpret as a 4222.
 
adexkola said:
Not to derail your overall thread but this is disproved by the fact that Chelsea beat City in the FA Cup semifinals and the league, before the CL final, even when City had played Rodri (who was out of form in this period) and an aged Fernandinho. It just fits into the "over thinker" narrative.

Back to the main thesis:

I don't think it's true a single pivot is a prerequisite to dominant football. I think you go for it, if and only if you have that excellent DM that doesn't need support, allowing your other midfielders to push up. Casemiro was excellent a few years ago but he's only half decent now and see how he looks ragged.

Otherwise I think it makes sense to have 2 players sitting. In conjunction with fullbacks being more forward, you can still get significant numbers up front.
Click to expand...

The entire point of the single pivot the majority of the time is to allow for a more modern pressing structure where 5 players can press the opponent with a DM cutting out anything behind them. Playing in a double pivot makes that press much easier to play through. Basically in modern football if you want to run with a double pivot you have to be willing to sit a bit deeper and play more transitionally. It can still work of course with the right players, just isn’t the most popular way of setting up like it might have been a decade+ ago.
 
I can understand the intention of the opening post and see where they are coming from, however it’s more expansive for me.

I can see the pattern that has developed in that most of the teams that have won and dominated recently have had a pivot in front of the defence and their consistent presence in these teams. But as others have suggested it’s more the spine of the team that is around the pivot. If they don’t compliment each other and provide balance the quality of the DM can be negated.

While I agree the position currently favours combative players apparently, ie Rodri, there are different styles that can play at the base. I’m thinking Pirlo and Carrick were different from those highlighted and then had others around them that fitted the system.

Basically once we get most players fit we can try and see who can build chemistry with each other and build some consistency.
 
Siorac said:
Inter 2010 didn't play with three CBs or a single pivot. It was usually a 4-2-3-1 with Cambiasso and Motta behind honorary United player Wesley Sneijder.

Here's Mourinho himself talking about the win over Barcelona in the CL semi:

Click to expand...

Yeah, quite a few examples in there that isn't a clear cut "single pivot" as the OP seems to think. Kroos would often perform a DLP role, next to Casemiro for Madrid, ala similar to a Carrick-Scholes type partnership, IMO. Your example above, plus a couple of those Bayern teams also played a 4-2-3-1, depending.
 
simonhch said:
I may have missed some details in the tactical nuances of this "analysis", but it strikes me that in order to be truly successful in this modern era of football, a team needs to play with a single pivot and "ball handlers" in midfield, rather than the double pivot so many of our managers have persisted with over the last decade. In that sense I can see why ETH planned to move to a Casemiro, Mount, Bruno midfield this year, and tbf has only had a handful of games to actually try it in. Might also be the case that he bought the wrong player in Mount to implement it, that the players haven't quite taken it on board yet, or that Casemiro isn't up to the job anymore. Either way, we seem to have abandoned it in favour of going back to the double pivot.

If we look back at the CL final winners, all the way back to 2008, a very clear pattern emerges:

2008 - United: Single pivot, Carrick
2009 - Barca: Single pivot, Busquets
2010 - Inter: Single pivot, Cambiasso (albeit with 3 CBs behind him)
2011 - Barca: Single pivot, Busquets
2012 - Chelsea: Single Pivot, Obi Mikel (or did Lampard play as a double?)
2013 - Bayern: Single Pivot, Martinez (with Schweinsteiger helping)
2014 - Madrid: Single pivot, Modric
2015 - Barca: Single pivot, Biscuits again
2016 - Madrid; Single pivot, Casemiro
2017 - Madrid; Single pivot, Casemiro
2018 - Madrid; Single pivot, Casemiro
2019 - Liverpool; Single pivot, Fabinho
2020 - Bayern; Single pivot, Thiago Alcantara
2021 - Chelsea: Single Pivot, Jorginho (a game City famously lost by not playing either of their pivots, Rodri or Fernandinho)
2022 - Madrid; Single pivot, Camavinga
2023 - City: Single pivot, Rodri

There might be one or two there that can be argued. People may say Jorginho wasn't alone, as he had Kante, but my recollection of that set up was that it was Jorginho with Kante and Mount ahead of him, but it could've been a box midfield with Jorginho, Kante, Mount and Havertz. What's interesting about that final is that City were overwhelming favourites but Guardiola left out both of his potential DMs for the game, and they lost control of it.

United have lacked a proper singular DM since the days of Carrick, until Casemiro was signed last season. He was instantly touted as the most influential signing in a decade for how he transformed the team. This year, our huge dip in form has coincided with Casemiro's. What is also interesting, is that if you look down that list, most of the players on it are primarily known for their intelligence on the ball, positional play, and passing ability, rather than their steel. In fact Casemiro, and Cambiasso are the standouts in that regard, and Casemiro had in front of him, two of the greatest "ball handlers" of the modern era.

United, ourselves, have looked great at certain points with Scholes as the deepest player. All of which is to suggest, that what is needed at this club, is a reliable reference point who sits in front of the defence and orchestrates play. So what say you Caf? What is the way forward for us? Is there a set up within our current squad that could work as a single pivot? Is there an affordable player out there we should be gambling on? Any controversial suggestions?
Click to expand...
You make some good points, but I think you are contradicting yourself a bit. I don't think that United used a double pivot for most of the last seasons - as you say, until Casemiro arrived there was not really a DM except Matic, and he wasn't good enough anymore. In my understanding a pivot is a player who anchors the play in front of the defense to give stability. And when I look at McFred and similar pairings, neither acted as a pivot but are moving around the pitch too much.

Also at least some of your examples (as has been pointed out by others before) are not really clear cut single pivots. Someone like Martinez definitely was known for adding steel to the Bayern team, and Schweinsteiger played mostly directly with him, so calling that a double pivot would be more justified.

Similarly Casemiro was often accompanied by Kroos playing relatively deep to distribute balls, which leads to a similar structure, but it is fair to say that Casemiro was the single pivot while Kroos had more freedom to roam into the spaces he could use for his game, but that does not have to be in that deep position when it does not make sense.

I would move the focus a bit away from just the pivot and look at the midfield as a whole for these teams, and then we usually see three man midfields that consist of a clear DM for reliability and cover, one player distributing the ball safely around the team and a third midfielder for creative moments to make things happen (essentially what we usually shortcut as DM/CM/AM). This role distribution seems to be more important than exact positioning of most players. Not going through every team, but trios like Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta for Barca, Martinez, Schweinsteiger, Müller for Bayern or of course Casemiro, Kroos, Modric for Real all follow this pattern. Jorginho, Kante, Mount is an interesting case as we here had a CM (Kante) who impressed more through physicality and movement than through passing, but still he connected the play, he just did it by moving more himself instead of moving the ball.

And looking at United's senior squad it looks like they are still missing this CM type player (maybe Amrabat? Don't know him well enough) and only have Casemiro for the DM role, but have three players who could be the AM (Bruno, Mount, Eriksen). I am still not sure what McTominay actually offers. He surely isn't an AM or CM as he lacks the creativity and passing, but he also doesn't fit the DM role as he doesn't offer himself as an anchor for the play. I really don't see him as a useful midfielder.
 
simonhch said:
If we look back at the CL final winners, all the way back to 2008, a very clear pattern emerges:

2008 - United: Single pivot, Carrick
2009 - Barca: Single pivot, Busquets
2010 - Inter: Single pivot, Cambiasso (albeit with 3 CBs behind him)
2011 - Barca: Single pivot, Busquets
2012 - Chelsea: Single Pivot, Obi Mikel (or did Lampard play as a double?)
2013 - Bayern: Single Pivot, Martinez (with Schweinsteiger helping)
2014 - Madrid: Single pivot, Modric
2015 - Barca: Single pivot, Biscuits again
2016 - Madrid; Single pivot, Casemiro
2017 - Madrid; Single pivot, Casemiro
2018 - Madrid; Single pivot, Casemiro
2019 - Liverpool; Single pivot, Fabinho
2020 - Bayern; Single pivot, Thiago Alcantara
2021 - Chelsea: Single Pivot, Jorginho (a game City famously lost by not playing either of their pivots, Rodri or Fernandinho)
2022 - Madrid; Single pivot, Camavinga
2023 - City: Single pivot, Rodri
Click to expand...
I think, the bolded ones are pretty easy to say that they were more of a 2-man-midfield, while the italic ones are up for debate. As others pointed out, Kroos was slow great in terms of passing, he wasn't insane in terms of defensive but I am pretty sure, heatmaps would show, that his average positioning was pretty similar to how Scholes' heatmaps would have looked. Liverpools midfields were industrious, while Fabinho had the role of being the deepest, Henderson, Milner and even the youngster would easily drop next to him. Chelsea had Kante and back in the day Ramires, those two covered the space of two players.

simonhch said:
United, ourselves, have looked great at certain points with Scholes as the deepest player. All of which is to suggest, that what is needed at this club, is a reliable reference point who sits in front of the defence and orchestrates play. So what say you Caf? What is the way forward for us? Is there a set up within our current squad that could work as a single pivot? Is there an affordable player out there we should be gambling on? Any controversial suggestions?
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I would walk along with you on that road but only because I like the target. I think putting all that on the single-pivot-hypthesis is oversimplifying thing too much. The current on vogue box midfield consists of two players in front of the defense, the en vogue thing before, inverting fullbacks also made sure, there would be a second player, City last year had CB stepping up to be that double pivot player. I think, it is safe to say, that theres more to it than just the starting positions of players. Most of the CL winners had also at least good workrate, they worked together as a team in attack and in defense. Just looking at the number of pivot players might just be a correlation, not causality. Plus it isn't as if we just decide how to play and as soon as we choose the "right way", the success will come. Opponents will adapt and a single pivot is often easily block out of matches. This is where others have to step up, take over responsibilites and numbers and put in the work. It is always a match of trade offs.

There isn't the one reason, why Uniteds midfields aren't really working for such a long time - player combinations, player quality, lack of plan, the matching of plans and players, lack of team cohesion, issues in attack and in defense, workrate ,synergies. For a team to peak, you need all of that (and I am not necessarily mean a CL win means peak, I mean Barca tiki taka era level). I think, United needs an actual plan and subsequently recruitment under this plan. While not perfect, the current midfield players should be something that one should be able to create functional midfield from, but the plan maybe has to be adapted temporarily to suit the current confidence level. Keep it easy, gain confidence, try difficult stuff.

I think, while being a good talking point, talk about formations in this 4-2-3-1 or 4-2-2-2 format isn't really cutting it anymore. Asymetry was a thing even in 2007/2008. Since then, formations became more and more fluid, looking different depending on the match situation and can be adjusted by the managers throughout the whole match depending on what the other teams is trying to do.

For United, I think we shouldn't focus on the midfield specifically, while it has some issues, it also feeds from issues at the back (fear of pushing up when attack is pressing, resulting in large spaces in behind the press) and from the attacking players (losing the ball too often, too easily and not really using the ball to challenge the defense either by passing or dribbling).

Longterm approach - setup a plan independent from a specific manager and player, streamline recruitment, player development and academy towards this plan
Shortterm approach - build confidence by keeping it basic and compact, my current goal would be creating a team that prefers to have a goalless draw than to lose 4-3. When this solidity is achieved, go from there.
 
simonhch said:
I may have missed some details in the tactical nuances of this "analysis", but it strikes me that in order to be truly successful in this modern era of football, a team needs to play with a single pivot and "ball handlers" in midfield, rather than the double pivot so many of our managers have persisted with over the last decade. In that sense I can see why ETH planned to move to a Casemiro, Mount, Bruno midfield this year, and tbf has only had a handful of games to actually try it in. Might also be the case that he bought the wrong player in Mount to implement it, that the players haven't quite taken it on board yet, or that Casemiro isn't up to the job anymore. Either way, we seem to have abandoned it in favour of going back to the double pivot.

If we look back at the CL final winners, all the way back to 2008, a very clear pattern emerges:

2008 - United: Single pivot, Carrick
2009 - Barca: Single pivot, Busquets
2010 - Inter: Single pivot, Cambiasso (albeit with 3 CBs behind him)
2011 - Barca: Single pivot, Busquets
2012 - Chelsea: Single Pivot, Obi Mikel (or did Lampard play as a double?)
2013 - Bayern: Single Pivot, Martinez (with Schweinsteiger helping)
2014 - Madrid: Single pivot, Modric
2015 - Barca: Single pivot, Biscuits again
2016 - Madrid; Single pivot, Casemiro
2017 - Madrid; Single pivot, Casemiro
2018 - Madrid; Single pivot, Casemiro
2019 - Liverpool; Single pivot, Fabinho
2020 - Bayern; Single pivot, Thiago Alcantara
2021 - Chelsea: Single Pivot, Jorginho (a game City famously lost by not playing either of their pivots, Rodri or Fernandinho)
2022 - Madrid; Single pivot, Camavinga
2023 - City: Single pivot, Rodri

There might be one or two there that can be argued. People may say Jorginho wasn't alone, as he had Kante, but my recollection of that set up was that it was Jorginho with Kante and Mount ahead of him, but it could've been a box midfield with Jorginho, Kante, Mount and Havertz. What's interesting about that final is that City were overwhelming favourites but Guardiola left out both of his potential DMs for the game, and they lost control of it.

United have lacked a proper singular DM since the days of Carrick, until Casemiro was signed last season. He was instantly touted as the most influential signing in a decade for how he transformed the team. This year, our huge dip in form has coincided with Casemiro's. What is also interesting, is that if you look down that list, most of the players on it are primarily known for their intelligence on the ball, positional play, and passing ability, rather than their steel. In fact Casemiro, and Cambiasso are the standouts in that regard, and Casemiro had in front of him, two of the greatest "ball handlers" of the modern era.

United, ourselves, have looked great at certain points with Scholes as the deepest player. All of which is to suggest, that what is needed at this club, is a reliable reference point who sits in front of the defence and orchestrates play. So what say you Caf? What is the way forward for us? Is there a set up within our current squad that could work as a single pivot? Is there an affordable player out there we should be gambling on? Any controversial suggestions?
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Over simplifying it IMO.

The difference between most of those examples and a Casemiro, Mount, Bruno midfield is that although there'll be one sitting CM who most of the play will go through, there'll also be a second and sometimes a third who will drop back and sit in defensively or will have some positional discipline on and off the ball.

Carrick for example would never be played with 2 no 10s. He'd, pretty much without fail, have Scholes, Fletcher, Hargreaves, Giggs, Anderson, etc. alongside him. Sometimes two of them. Barring a ridiculous injury crisis SAF would never have put Carrick in the team and then had Rooney and Kagawa as his other midfielders. He wouldn't have done it in 2008 even against the weaker opponents, never mind when Carrick was Casemiro's age. Barcelona had Xavi. Real would play Casemiro with Modric, Liverpool had Henderson, Thiago etc. Its a single pivot in possession but it isn't a one man midfield with 2 no10s. The only team I can think of who sort of do that are City, and even they don't really do it. Gundogan wouldn't play in the same role as De Bruyne at the same time as De Bruyne.

I also think last season Casemiro was mostly the single pivot, and when he didn't play Eriksen would try to take up that role. The difference was Eriksen or Fred wouldn't be playing as a second no10 and leaving a Casemiro to cover the whole width of the pitch and play through the middle third on his own. They would drop back alongside him and advance when the space was there to do so and we had possession.

What we've been trying to do with Mount and Bruno is somewhat unprecedented in a league as competitive as the PL, and on paper, quite bonkers...which so far has been reflected in how its looked in reality.
 
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