The Impossible Draft - Finals: Enigma vs Idmanager

[Theon]

Think you are getting a bit carried away mate with the all back four thing. the actual setup and the opposition doesn’t really make it a weakness but plays to the strength to my defensive line.

Have no idea what you mean by this!

Fine to agree to disagree though. I just think requiring Varela to drop into defence is unnecessary and not his natural game. And I think having Sammer as a Libero in a back four is a worse defensive partnership than the one in the semi final.

 

[Enigma_87]

This is another example. You have spent the first half of the thread saying that when Sammer moves forward Varela would drop back and cover for him in the defensive line, whereas now he is staying where he is covering Rivelino.

Whole thing is confusing and think it would be chaotic on the pitch. No idea why you didn't just stick with that previous back line.

Maybe I have to paraphrase it a bit so it becomes clear. If ID stuck with Bergkamp Varela would’ve to drop back deeper in a line with Shesternyov to watch over a SS or a ST. In this case we have to mind the opposition and he’s facing Rivelino hence Rivelino would also drop deeper to help the midfield. Varela would then occupy a zone which is pretty much around the center half assuming the where the ball is watching the space left by Sammer and Rivelino.

Can’t draw it in a formation but trying to explain it with words.

My point is he will be ahead of Spencer who will be ahead of Shesternyov and Rivelino would most likely be in his own half if that makes sense.

 

[Enigma_87]

Have no idea what you mean by this!

Fine to agree to disagree though. I just think requiring Varela to drop into defence is unnecessary and not his natural game. And I think having Sammer as a Libero in a back four is a worse defensive partnership than the one in the semi final.

On the road but will try to draw it on a formation graphic in the dying hours of the game.

Happy to hear your thoughts on other parts of the pitch tho - Zebec for example and how Ocwirk and Davids will cope with Zico’s threat and onrushing Edwards and Sammer from deep.

 

[Theon]

Happy to hear your thoughts on other parts of the pitch tho - Zebec for example and how Ocwirk and Davids will cope with Zico’s threat and onrushing Edwards and Sammer from deep.

Have no problems at all with Zebec.

Davids I rate as the best defensive midfielder on the park - he’ll have a hard time with Zico but that’s to be expected. I can definitely see you scoring and no doubt Zico would be at the heart of it.

On an on-rushing Sammer I think that does more harm for you than good.

 

[Don Alfredo]

Thanks for the feedback mate, really appreciated when a neutral takes the time to go through the teams in great detail as you.

Just to reiterate some points - Sammer would surely will add to the attacking phase. The reason why I went with him was exactly that - his surges forward and how he decided some of the biggest game at the highest level. Edwards also plays as a B2B midfielder - pretty much in his zone here, so he will also add to the attacking phase. The DM/anchor dropping back is Varela who will fill the void left by Sammer when he goes forward.

Onto Zebec -

https://www.11v11.com/matches/england-v-yugoslavia-28-november-1956-226792/
https://www.11v11.com/matches/yugoslavia-v-greece-09-may-1953-226216/
https://www.11v11.com/matches/greece-v-yugoslavia-28-march-1954-226334/
https://www.11v11.com/matches/yugoslavia-v-israel-08-november-1953-226284/
https://www.11v11.com/matches/yugoslavia-v-france-16-june-1954-226376/

he was predominantly used as a left side midfielder or left winger at the height of his career. He mainly an attacking player and had a goalscoring rate of 1 goal in 3 games both for club and country. If Sammer role is being questioned Zebec's role in a flat back four is much more dubious especially given the setup.

Zebec was far from the defensive level of Schnellinger or Camacho in a flat back 4. If you use him as wingback - then yes I can give you that but certainly not in the current setup.

As for Rivaldo. I'd rate him below Ronaldinho at his peak, but ahead of Neymar and Kaka for example. He's still one of the best attackers and loved the big stage. Generally he tends to be underrated in these things and probably would won't be much of a pull apart from when you combine him with Ronaldinho and Fenomeno.

The reason why I went with Djalma and Marzolini is of course the opposition wingers in mind, but Marzolini is very useful carrying the ball forward, whilst Djalma provides the stage for Sammer to surge forward and the latter addition to the defence and transitioning to midfield is second to none.

He has decided more than one game going forward, so he has to be minded by the opposition midfielders/defenders.

In terms of numbers we have always a spare man to cover for counter attacks and with our midfield being IMO better (especially with Nedved and Sammer overloading it) IDmanager would have his supply to the forward line cut off most of the cases, thus limiting his chances going forward. The balanced to defensive full backs allow us not to be vulnerable on counters as we cover the opposition strengths pretty well.

Thanks for addressing my points

I messed up completely with asking for opinions about Rivaldo Of course I meant Rivelino, who is relevant here.

I won't criticize your fullbacks since I think they are both top quality. I just think the choice between a purely defensive FB like Djalma and a more balanced one like Zanetti or Alberto shouldn't be based on the "fear" of the opposition's wingers. Carlos Alberto, Lahm, Zanetti, those guys were supreme defenders in their own right. I like to think the focus should be on the pair the FB forms with the Winger in front of him. Both Kalle and Nedved liked to come inside (Nedved in AM position and Kalle into the box), that is why I think having more attacking support from behind would be great to stretch the play and have more coherence up front. Similar to how Lahm and Robben worked so well on multiple occasions at Bayern, Lahm was never a defensive liability despite being up against Cristiano Ronaldo many times. Ronaldo scored quite a few against Bayern, but that was mostly from a CF position, where he was better positioned than the Center Backs. That is just a little point on how your team could have been a bit more balanced as a whole, but of course nothing to bash it with.

I also think Sammer at CB in a 4-man defense is perfectly fine, as I said so before. I even believe putting him here instead of Santamaria was a great move. Based on what I have seen of Santamaria, he was a great stopper, but went with the hoof ball way too often. With the rest of your defense being somewhat good in build-up, but no one being a "playmaker from the back", putting Sammer in there makes your team much better.

I know you raised Zebec in the semi final. Wasn't my job to sell him to you, but equally I had no intention of sticking the knife in. He has some very persuasive testimony highlighting how good he was in the centre of defence. When you combine that with his obvious ability on the flank, with that searing pace, he looks like a tailor made full-back or LCB. From previously researching him, he moved to centre-half at the age of 28 for Yugoslavia, and was a revelation there, gaining a lot of praise for his aerial ability and 1v1 defensive acumen.

Sorry @Enigma_87, not taking sides here, just wanted a chance to illustrate what Zebec was like.

Cheers for your input! I have a better idea now of what kind of player Zebec was and I think he will cope fine at LB, unless he comes up against a winger like Garrincha, when he has to defend 1v1 constantly. That is a huge task for any LB, let alone for a CB being shifted to LB or LWB being pulled back, even if they have great pace. Being 1v1 against big Center Forwards and being good in the air is a completely different kind of game to defending against dribbles from Garrincha for 90 mins.

You're not calling Duncan Edwards a defensive midfielder are you?

Yes I did . Not in the sense as being a "pure DM Makelele style", but as someone who is at his best in a double pivot, where defending is a very large part of his game. You think he is a Box2Box? I know Edwards was the complete package, but if I compare him to other Box2Box players like Neeskens and Matthaus, those guys had way more influence on the attacking play of their sides and played AM multiple times. He is not a holding midfielder, but to me clearly more a 6 than an 8. God, midfielder notation is indefinitely complicated

 

[Indnyc]

This is another example. You have spent the first half of the thread saying that when Sammer moves forward Varela would drop back and cover for him in the defensive line, whereas now he is staying where he is covering Rivelino.

Whole thing is confusing and think it would be chaotic on the pitch. No idea why you didn't just stick with that previous back line.

I don’t think it’s that confusing to be honest. When enigma’s team has the ball Sammer is free to go join the attack/overload the midfield with Varela staying back and covering in case of counter attacks. Presumably he’s going to be in and around Rivelino.

I see the thought process in having Sammer over Santamaria (especially in light of some of the recent posts on him in the other thread) but it comes down to how much you value Sammer being able to play the role of a CB in a back 4. Can he do it? Sure. Will he be a good fit? It’s down to opinions on how everyone rates him.

 

[harms]

Yes I did . Not in the sense as being a "pure DM Makelele style", but as someone who is at his best in a double pivot, where defending is a very large part of his game. You think he is a Box2Box? I know Edwards was the complete package, but if I compare him to other Box2Box players like Neeskens and Matthaus, those guys had way more influence on the attacking play of their sides and played AM multiple times. He is not a holding midfielder, but to me clearly more a 6 than an 8. God, midfielder notation is indefinitely complicated

Edwards even played as a striker though. Hard to access given that the only full game with him features him as a CB in a 10-men side, but from some highlights of his games for England you can see that he was very influential in attacking third.

 

[Theon]

I don’t think it’s that confusing to be honest. When enigma’s team has the ball Sammer is free to go join the attack/overload the midfield with Varela staying back and covering in case of counter attacks. Presumably he’s going to be in and around Rivelino.

I see the thought process in having Sammer over Santamaria (especially in light of some of the recent posts on him in the other thread) but it comes down to how much you value Sammer being able to play the role of a CB in a back 4. Can he do it? Sure. Will he be a good fit? It’s down to opinions on how everyone rates him.

No the part I was saying is confusing is that in previous posts the remit of Varela has been to drop back and cover for Sammer when he moves forward i.e. drop into the back line. Whereas in that post the remit of Varela was to stay with Rivelino, who was far from a supporting striker and would operate in the midfield area or in the channels. Those are two very different instructions and that is what I found confusing.

Based on the most recent post it sounds like Varela will stick with Rivelino and just leaving Shesternyov with Spencer. That's fine, but again raises problems as its never a good idea to play 1 vs 1 unless the tactic is clearly thought out. Gento is one of the fastest players in the history of the game for example, so I could see him darting inside to overload Shesternyov with Spencer.

Should say that I have no problem with creative approaches and have done it myself previously, but I think its clearly a complicated set up and there's nothing wrong with exploring it.

 

[Don Alfredo]

Edwards even played as a striker though. Hard to access given that the only full game with him features him as a CB in a 10-men side, but from some highlights of his games for England you can see that he was very influential in attacking third.

That first goal is outrageous. Made him famous in Germany too. Back then, the Germans had immense respect for some of England's best. Matthews, Edwards and Charlton were all adored and are still regarded extremely highly by older generations, and subsequently by the ones those stories were passed to, like me.

Still, you showed me 3 goals he scored and not that he was constantly part of the attacking moves of his side. 5 in 18 for England is very good, but for Utd he scored something like 5 goals per season on average. For someone with his abilities (shooting, heading, dribbling), that sounds like a underwhelming number, which indicates to me he wasn't in the last third very often (if played as a midfielder, not as a makeshift CF). Of course we can't solely center the discussion about the goals scored by an central midfielder. I am also open to more information, if it tells us about him having big influence on the attacking play

Maybe he was too unique to classify as one sort of a midfielder.

 

[idmanager]

Congratulations for the win, @Enigma_87
Sorry about the no show today. Some real world issues cropped up which I couldn't avoid.

Deserved winner of the draft I'd say as @Tuppet was the only manager after initial drafting which I thought had a chance against you.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

That first goal is outrageous. Made him famous in Germany too. Back then, the Germans had immense respect for some of England's best. Matthews, Edwards and Charlton were all adored and are still regarded extremely highly by older generations, and subsequently by the ones those stories were passed to, like me.

Still, you showed me 3 goals he scored and not that he was constantly part of the attacking moves of his side. 5 in 18 for England is very good, but for Utd he scored something like 5 goals per season on average. For someone with his abilities (shooting, heading, dribbling), that sounds like a underwhelming number, which indicates to me he wasn't in the last third very often (if played as a midfielder, not as a makeshift CF). Of course we can't solely center the discussion about the goals scored by an central midfielder. I am also open to more information, if it tells us about him having big influence on the attacking play

Maybe he was too unique to classify as one sort of a midfielder.

Unique is the word.

My Dad (and Grandad) watched him in the youth team and then when he broke through to the first team and said he could play anywhere bar goalie. My Dad rates him above Best.

Could he do a very good job as a defensive midfielder? Definitely, but he could easily cope with a B2B role.

In terms of goals output, I'd imagine that us having Dennis Viollet, the great Tommy Taylor and an emerging Charlton, meant that goals weren't the teams focus for him.

 

[Jim Beam]

Nice final. Love that we learned a thing or two about Rivaldo as well.

 

[Theon]

Nice final. Love that we learned a thing or two about Rivaldo as well.

 

[Enigma_87]

Congratulations for the win, @Enigma_87
Sorry about the no show today. Some real world issues cropped up which I couldn't avoid.

Deserved winner of the draft I'd say as @Tuppet was the only manager after initial drafting which I thought had a chance against you.

Cheers mate, pity you couldn’t participate in the discussion.

You had a great team and deserved to go all the way.

Hope everything is ok and you will participate in the next possible one

 

[Gio]

Well done @Enigma_87. Drafting masterclass.

Same to @idmanager. Well crafted, especially without the GOAT advantages at the top of the snake. Think Monti might have done a more credible job keeping tabs on Zico, but still a fine effort.

 

[Enigma_87]

Well done @Enigma_87. Drafting masterclass.

Same to @idmanager. Well crafted, especially without the GOAT advantages at the top of the snake. Think Monti might have done a more credible job keeping tabs on Zico, but still a fine effort.

Thanks, mate. Was really challenging draft in terms of reinforcement rounds especially but the quality of some of the teams was something else - and wouldn't look off even in a no restriction all time draft.

Really happy with the team here probably the best I could've done considering the restrictions and players blocked.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Really happy with the team here probably the best I could've done considering the restrictions and players blocked.

Aye, you did a great job of continually refreshing and strengthening your team whereas many of the other initial standout teams stagnated. Congrats!

 

[Enigma_87]

Aye, you did a great job of continually refreshing and strengthening your team whereas many of the other initial standout teams stagnated. Congrats!

Cheers mate, appreciated!