Television The Pro Graps Thread

JP77

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I mean if you looked at it before and said Punk is going to return after over 6 years out of the ring and have a short, completely random match with Darby Allin that had no meaning at all behind it (other than 'look at us we have young talent!!') and then go into a story with Taz and his crew while also doing random commentary you'd honestly have been called mental. You can kind of understand why some people have been disappointed so far for something that was supposed to be an absolutely huge deal in the wrestling world.
 
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CassiusClaymore

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So if punk was at the top of the card, I can imagine Shane going on about this being tna version 2 with a 50 year old at the top, beating established aew home grown guys or ex WWE guys
100% this. The same people were saying when Punk and Danielson were signed that it'd push Hangman down the pecking order and now it's become apparent that this isn't the case they've switched the argument to "you're not using your big stars correctly". The flip flopping and general bitchiness in this thread over who does pretend fighting the best is hilarious to me. The energy it must take to watch something you actively dislike every week, jeez. I heartily recommend doing something in that time that makes you happy instead.

Anyway that said I suspect Punk is doing exactly what Punk wants to do. I could certainly do without the "I'm still enjoying this, I know you won't forever..." promos but apart from that his matches have been solid old school affairs.
 

JP77

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100% this. The same people were saying when Punk and Danielson were signed that it'd push Hangman down the pecking order and now it's become apparent that this isn't the case they've switched the argument to "you're not using your big stars correctly". The flip flopping and general bitchiness in this thread over who does pretend fighting the best is hilarious to me. The energy it must take to watch something you actively dislike every week, jeez. I heartily recommend doing something in that time that makes you happy instead.

Anyway that said I suspect Punk is doing exactly what Punk wants to do. I could certainly do without the "I'm still enjoying this, I know you won't forever..." promos but apart from that his matches have been solid old school affairs.
Personally I'm not fussed where Punk is as long as it's done right. I couldn't care about AEW vs WWE or any petty point scoring. I think some people get tired of one rule for one, a different rule for another though. To some people AEW can do no wrong while WWE can do no right and I believe that's what turns some people against AEW and some of the fans, rightly or wrongly.

There's really nothing wrong with saying Punk's return has been a bit of a disappointment so far considering the hype that had been built for years upon years for it.
 

Holocene

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The only ex WWE wrestler in AEW that's been bad is Andrade. They don't know what to do with him. Really disappointing.

I have no doubt that Punk will be in a feud that turns him heel soon.
 

Ekeke

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I mean if you looked at it before and said Punk is going to return after over 6 years out of the ring and have a short, completely random match with Darby Allin that had no meaning at all behind it (other than 'look at us we have young talent!!') and then go into a story with Taz and his crew while also doing random commentary you'd honestly have been called mental. You can kind of understand why some people have been disappointed so far for something that was supposed to be an absolutely huge deal in the wrestling world.
At the same time, if thats what makes Punk happy and is the reason he came back to wrestling at all then you need to deal with it. He at least says it is

For sure theres far more interesting matchups for Punk down the line, but you cant have everyone in the main title picture.

AEW has 2 big titles for the men and I bet if Punk was going for the TNT title people would still be complaining. They were complaining when Miro was on his buildup for that title
 

CassiusClaymore

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Personally I'm not fussed where Punk is as long as it's done right. I couldn't care about AEW vs WWE or any petty point scoring. I think some people get tired of one rule for one, a different rule for another though. To some people AEW can do no wrong while WWE can do no right and I believe that's what turns some people against AEW and some of the fans, rightly or wrongly.

There's really nothing wrong with saying Punk's return has been a bit of a disappointment so far considering the hype that had been built for years upon years for it.
Ok but this seems like it's your own expectation of what he should be doing that's caused the disappointment. From what Punk has said he seems to be doing exactly what he wants to be doing and wrestling the people he wants to wrestle. For sure at some point someone will have to wind him in and give him something meaty but a fast track into the title picture was never on the cards nor should it be with all the groundwork they've laid for Omega v Hangman.
 

CassiusClaymore

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The only ex WWE wrestler in AEW that's been bad is Andrade. They don't know what to do with him. Really disappointing.

I have no doubt that Punk will be in a feud that turns him heel soon.
Yeah he's had like what 3 matches? I mean Pac and his travel issues haven't helped but he certainly needs more tv time. Maybe a run at the TNT title might do him some good? Think him and Sammy could have some decent chemistry.
 

Sylar

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The only ex WWE wrestler in AEW that's been bad is Andrade. They don't know what to do with him. Really disappointing.

I have no doubt that Punk will be in a feud that turns him heel soon.
Yeah think the flair thing has screwed him getting a named manager and voice (father in law) . And yeah the travel issues for pac

100% this. The same people were saying when Punk and Danielson were signed that it'd push Hangman down the pecking order and now it's become apparent that this isn't the case they've switched the argument to "you're not using your big stars correctly". The flip flopping and general bitchiness in this thread over who does pretend fighting the best is hilarious to me. The energy it must take to watch something you actively dislike every week, jeez. I heartily recommend doing something in that time that makes you happy instead.

Anyway that said I suspect Punk is doing exactly what Punk wants to do. I could certainly do without the "I'm still enjoying this, I know you won't forever..." promos but apart from that his matches have been solid old school affairs.
As has been mentioned punk wants to work with younger guys and so far we've seen with darby, hobbs, Garcia
All fine / good marches with crowds being hot for his matches and promos

I don't take what a lot say on here seriously as it's very much hyperbole one way or another and OTT exaggeration
 

CassiusClaymore

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The only ex WWE wrestler in AEW that's been bad is Andrade. They don't know what to do with him. Really disappointing.

I have no doubt that Punk will be in a feud that turns him heel soon.
I mean the obvious one that's right there is vs Hangman when he takes the title from Kenny. Practically writes itself.
 
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Sylar

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In fairness Punk's return sums up some of the bias today. Can't argue to much against the argument that had the WWE brought back Punk after all this time out of the ring and had him doing similar promo's each week and wrestling in completely random feuds and then having him randomly come out one week to do commentary, they'd be getting shit all over.

Personally I have no problem with him wrestling younger guys and doing a slow burn with him but we all know had the WWE done something similar the reaction would be much different and people would be saying it's crazy to have such a big name returning and being put into the middle of the pack.
But you surely see why fans give aew more of the benefit of the doubt than WWE right?

Let's take two years as the example as that's all aew has but even if you wanted to, let's compare aew in 2 years vs WWE for the last five
Compare the build of younger talent
Then compare the use of the older guys
Then compare the ppv matches and finishes
Then compare the fun, as a fan you have watching aew tv vs WWE tv

For every gaffe that aew has made (they've made some big ones, like the dark order beat down of elite, or Jericho falling on cardboard boxes or the ring explosion stuff) they've more than delivered on other aspects

Now look at WWE. For every great thing they've delivered they've more than left a bad taste in numerous amounts

WWE has a stacked and strong roster of talent. There is no excuses on that, but the delivery from WWE makes you think 'how are they going to ruin this' whereas for aew it's more 'what are they going to deliver'

That isn't bias (not to say there isn't out there) but it's expectation based on experience of delivery
 

JP77

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But you surely see why fans give aew more of the benefit of the doubt than WWE right?

Let's take two years as the example as that's all aew has but even if you wanted to, let's compare aew in 2 years vs WWE for the last five
Compare the build of younger talent
Then compare the use of the older guys
Then compare the ppv matches and finishes
Then compare the fun, as a fan you have watching aew tv vs WWE tv

For every gaffe that aew has made (they've made some big ones, like the dark order beat down of elite, or Jericho falling on cardboard boxes or the ring explosion stuff) they've more than delivered on other aspects

Now look at WWE. For every great thing they've delivered they've more than left a bad taste in numerous amounts

WWE has a stacked and strong roster of talent. There is no excuses on that, but the delivery from WWE makes you think 'how are they going to ruin this' whereas for aew it's more 'what are they going to deliver'

That isn't bias (not to say there isn't out there) but it's expectation based on experience of delivery
I'm not arguing any of that. I don't post in here all that often and as I've mentioned plenty of times, I couldn't care less about AEW vs WWE because great wrestling is great wrestling, I'd quite like to see every company putting out the best stuff they can. I'm explaining why some people have an issue with it though.

None of the above really even matters, what we're discussing is Punk's return. If it's been good for you or anybody on here, that's absolutely fine. I'm pointing out a clear issue that some fans have with the current AEW/WWE bias (and it can work both ways). Do you think had Punk returned to the WWE, gone into random midcard stories without hardly any actual story to it, done random commentary out of the blue and then had people say "but it's because Punk wants to work with younger guys" that people wouldn't be laughing at that idea and saying how WWE had completely ruined one of the biggest wrestling returns in years?

Again, I'm not actually hating on anything. I don't have any agenda, I want to see both companies doing great. For me I'm enjoying AEW more than the WWE right now, certainly more now that they're ruining NXT. I'm putting the point across as to why people could easily say Punk's return has been disappointing so far. He could go on to do incredible things down the line, nowhere am I saying he won't, but right now there's certainly good reason for people to feel disappointed. It's not just any return either, instead it's a guy that was massively rated in the business and a lot of people have been desperate to see return.

I have no problem with him not currently fighting for the title or being the champion. Not everybody in here is trying to shit on AEW or the WWE. The WWE have plenty of their own problems but sometimes you have to look at the two completely seperate and stop comparing. It shouldn't always be "AEW is doing this poorly..." which leads to "Yeah but WWE are doing this and this bad...". They're two completely separate company's.
 

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I'm not arguing any of that. I don't post in here all that often and as I've mentioned plenty of times, I couldn't care less about AEW vs WWE because great wrestling is great wrestling, I'd quite like to see every company putting out the best stuff they can. I'm explaining why some people have an issue with it though.

None of the above really even matters, what we're discussing is Punk's return. If it's been good for you or anybody on here, that's absolutely fine. I'm pointing out a clear issue that some fans have with the current AEW/WWE bias (and it can work both ways). Do you think had Punk returned to the WWE, gone into random midcard stories without hardly any actual story to it, done random commentary out of the blue and then had people say "but it's because Punk wants to work with younger guys" that people wouldn't be laughing at that idea and saying how WWE had completely ruined one of the biggest wrestling returns in years?

Again, I'm not actually hating on anything. I don't have any agenda, I want to see both companies doing great. For me I'm enjoying AEW more than the WWE right now, certainly more now that they're ruining NXT. I'm putting the point across as to why people could easily say Punk's return has been disappointing so far. He could go on to do incredible things down the line, nowhere am I saying he won't, but right now there's certainly good reason for people to feel disappointed. It's not just any return either, instead it's a guy that was massively rated in the business and a lot of people have been desperate to see return.

I have no problem with him not currently fighting for the title or being the champion. Not everybody in here is trying to shit on AEW or the WWE. The WWE have plenty of their own problems but sometimes you have to look at the two completely seperate and stop comparing. It shouldn't always be "AEW is doing this poorly..." which leads to "Yeah but WWE are doing this and this bad...". They're two completely separate company's.
Punk returning to WWE would be a former WWE champion returning

Punk joining aew is a former wrestler who hasn't wrestled in nearly a decade.

It's different situations for a reason. I agree they are different companies but again you and somebody else on this thread brought up the whole 'if WWE did this' scenario

I certainly didn't
 

noodlehair

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Tv deal and then ad revenue for AEW, for WWE its just the Tv deal they dont get ad revenue but of course the Tv deal is far bigger because they're established and have been the top dogs for 20 years. The goal for AEW has to be to get to a place where when the next Tv deals come up years from now the big networks might want to choose them for a cheaper but still massive amount than WWE which would cost more. Thats how AEW grows financially from here.

As for Punk and Black, thats the issue with not just putting ex WWE guys straight into the top spots. They are developing MJF, Guevara, Jungle Boy, Darby Allin and Hangman Page among others. They will have their big matches down the road at pay per views most likely. Those matches are still there. But they arent hot shotting them straight into the big main event and title picture, like they have done with Bryan Danielson. They dont need to. And if they went through all the big matches Punk and Black could have as well as Danielson in 2 months, I dont think the ratings would be significantly higher than now and they'll have nothing new to go to down the line
Yeah so I actually like how they don't just throw the established names in against each other and instead tend to have them go against the up and comers. It just all goes far too slowly to maintain any real interest or investment, which is a shame as do a much better job than WWE of making you want to route for someone.

There'll be an occasional match that's a lot better than anything WWE currently churn out as well. The tag team cage match at All Out was the best I've seen in a long time.

There just needs to be a bit more happening really. Generally on a show you get a bunch of matches of which maybe 1 will actually mean anything, maybe MJF will do a promo that actually leads to something, and the rest of it is pretty miss able as it's either filler or something on such a slow burn you're really not risking missing anything.

You can see people are more invested in the actual wrestlers just by how much more into it the crowd are compared to WWE. It's "more fun" as someone put it a few pages back so the potential is definitely there.

Every time I watch WWE I just can't believe what a mess it is. Part of the reason to enjoy watching a fake fight is because you care who wins and WWE literally rips that away because anytime someone starts developing any character or relatability, they rip it away within 2 weeks by doing something completely dumb
 
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Ekeke

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Yeah so I actually like how they don't just throw the established names in against each other and instead tend to have them go against the up and comers. It just all goes far too slowly to maintain any real interest or investment, which is a shame as do a much better job than WWE of making you want to route for someone.

There'll be an occasional match that's a lot better than anything WWE currently churn out as well. The tag team cage match at All Out was the best I've seen in a long time.

There just needs to be a bit more happening really. Generally on a show you get a bunch of matches of which maybe 1 will actually mean anything, maybe MJF will do a promo that actually leads to something, and the rest of it is pretty miss able as it's either filler or something on such a slow burn you're really not risking missing anything.

You can see people are more invested in the actual wrestlers just by how much more into it the crowd are compared to WWE. It's "more fun" as someone put it a few pages back so the potential is definitely there.

Every time I watch WWE I just can't believe what a mess it is. Part of the reason to enjoy watching a fake fight is because you care who wins and WWE literally rips that away because anytime someone starts developing any character or relatability, they rip it away within 2 weeks by doing something completely dumb
Seems fair. Theres times when I'm not as into the show too. Or certain people getting the spotlight and push that I don't really get. But I'm usually 7-8/10 satisfied with Dynamite and maybe a bit under with Rampage. I dont usually watch Dark and Dark Elevation, but will occasionally skip through to see if I am interested by something. Sometimes I'm not that into it when they do the big star vs. a guy getting a shot too. For example Daniel Garcia and Bobby Fish in recent weeks, I can't say that seeing them in with Punk and Sammy was particularly exciting to me.

But then you have people like Hangman Page

 

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More poking the bear...



He's being very ballsy this week. On one hand, it'll be hilarious if it blows up in his face and on the other hand it'll also be hilarious if they beat WWE.
 

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I think the current Punk stuff is the sort of thing that’s going to look great if it leads to an amazing heel turn or even a great main event face run, and it’s judged as part of a whole, but isn’t going to look AS good in the here and now.

There’s been examples of it in WWE. An initial WTF are they doing scenario leading into something genuinely good. Either because it was the original plan or they managed to salvage it.
 

choccy77

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I see the Million Dollar Man and his family members, are part of a group ordered to repay millions of mispent money.

I guess IRS turned face
 

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I think the current Punk stuff is the sort of thing that’s going to look great if it leads to an amazing heel turn or even a great main event face run, and it’s judged as part of a whole, but isn’t going to look AS good in the here and now.

There’s been examples of it in WWE. An initial WTF are they doing scenario leading into something genuinely good. Either because it was the original plan or they managed to salvage it.
The difference with AEW is that wins and losses are supposed to matter. So theres a good reason why someone new coming in needs to beat a bunch of people before they have the big big matches.

But because Punk, Cole and Danielson came in at a similar time you can thrust one into the main event picture, and have the other 2 build up their records so they'll be featured down the line.

Also Danielson has said he made the choice to go to AEW for those dream matches, to see if people are as good as he thinks they are from watching on tv. So to keep him happy with signing he needs to get that action.
 

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He's being very ballsy this week. On one hand, it'll be hilarious if it blows up in his face and on the other hand it'll also be hilarious if they beat WWE.
If they do beat WWE this week it'll be nothing short of mind blowing. I certainly couldnt tell you why hes talking it up.
 

TheGame

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More poking the bear...



He's being very ballsy this week. On one hand, it'll be hilarious if it blows up in his face and on the other hand it'll also be hilarious if they beat WWE.
:lol: Is he 10 years old?
 

Sylar

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If they do beat WWE this week it'll be nothing short of mind blowing. I certainly couldnt tell you why hes talking it up.
WWE has stacked smack down and should get at least 1m or close to it
I really cannot see rampage getting any where close unless they stacked it too. For long term it's better they don't abandon plans for the sake of one potential rating

The difference with AEW is that wins and losses are supposed to matter. So theres a good reason why someone new coming in needs to beat a bunch of people before they have the big big matches.

But because Punk, Cole and Danielson came in at a similar time you can thrust one into the main event picture, and have the other 2 build up their records so they'll be featured down the line.

Also Danielson has said he made the choice to go to AEW for those dream matches, to see if people are as good as he thinks they are from watching on tv. So to keep him happy with signing he needs to get that action.
Yeah agree with this. Danielson main evented mania this year so out of the three, him going into the main event makes the most sense

The other two building up victories will lead to long term top matches and show downs
 

CassiusClaymore

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I watched a Best of Lucha Underground Season 1 comp last night. Some really good matches in there. Absolutely love their production values and just the whole vibe of it. Looking forward to watching the rest.


Ricochet is Prince Puma right?
 

Ekeke

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I watched a Best of Lucha Underground Season 1 comp last night. Some really good matches in there. Absolutely love their production values and just the whole vibe of it. Looking forward to watching the rest.


Ricochet is Prince Puma right?
Yep. Some other ones I remember

Jeff Cobb is Matanza
Thunder Rosa is Cobra Moon
 

Sylar

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I watched a Best of Lucha Underground Season 1 comp last night. Some really good matches in there. Absolutely love their production values and just the whole vibe of it. Looking forward to watching the rest.


Ricochet is Prince Puma right?
Great fun and a great first season of entertainment. It was just different and shame it didn't become bigger.
 

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Roman also stoking the flames...

I wanted to ask you about someone specifically on that side of things, CM Punk. He’s gone by the Best in the World. You arguably are that right now in wrestling. I know you guys worked together in some capacity years before, but is there a part of you that wishes you could go toe to toe the way things are set up now and have a big match with him or something like that?

So I answered a question similar to this a while ago, and it falls back to what our audience wants to see. If our audience wanted to see it and they were clamoring for it, couldn’t shut up about it, and all the stars aligned, as a businessman and as a performer who was trying to seek out the very best for the audience and try to captivate, I wouldn’t say no. But I mean, on a personal level, it doesn’t do anything for me. That’s not going to elevate me at all. He’s older now. I haven’t really seen a full match. I’ve seen a clip or two. And to me, a step or two has been lost. Then also he got his whooped in the UFC. I don’t think anybody really believes someone 200 pounds soaking wet with no explosive bone in their body could ever really do anything to me. I’m 6’3”, 265 pounds, a legitimate athlete who can throw some weight around and has been on the gridiron at the highest level. D1. All ACC. I probably would’ve maintained in the NFL if my health issues didn’t happen when I was 22 years old. So, I mean, when it comes down to it, I’ll throw him and pretty much the rest of that roster out the club no problem. They’re just little brothers, you know?

https://www.complex.com/sports/roma...n-jewel-cm-punk-aew-interview/aew-and-cm-punk
 

sewey89

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I just think it’s all so unnecessary. Maybe I’m too old :lol:

I just think it’s the kind of thing that won’t ever become anything. AEW fans will shit on him. WWE fans will love him. Fans of each will argue with each other and everyone will just waste their time.

Im definitely too old.
 

Minkaro

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I just think it’s all so unnecessary. Maybe I’m too old :lol:

I just think it’s the kind of thing that won’t ever become anything. AEW fans will shit on him. WWE fans will love him. Fans of each will argue with each other and everyone will just waste their time.

Im definitely too old.
I think that’s the point though. Him being all nice about it would be boring. He’s playing up his character, and it gives people something to react to.

I’m pretty much completely “Team AEW” and I’ve no issues with it.
 

Sylar

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Roman is great. Biggest shame is that it took so long for this heel turn to happen. He really should be the biggest face in wrestling right now.
 

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Masterful match between Danielson and Suzuki, shame its on youtube rather than network tv or ppv. Truly what I aspire to be able to do one day

Sydal and Punk was good too. And now I'm watching Junior Dos Santos looking like Sagat from Street Fighter
 
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Ekeke

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Roman is great. Biggest shame is that it took so long for this heel turn to happen. He really should be the biggest face in wrestling right now.
He's the biggest face in WWE and they are the biggest company, so he kinda is. He's supposed to be a heel and acts like one most of the time, but he's the most liked and vocally supported WWE star
 

choccy77

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Roman is great. Biggest shame is that it took so long for this heel turn to happen. He really should be the biggest face in wrestling right now.
I heard a rumour last night that Vince fronted up to Roman about not slagging AEW off in an interview he did.
 

choccy77

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He's the biggest face in WWE and they are the biggest company, so he kinda is. He's supposed to be a heel and acts like one most of the time, but he's the most liked and vocally supported WWE star
Roman in this role right now is just perfect.

As a face it just didn't work, as a traditional Heel also probably wouldn't work as well, but this persona with his Head of the Table gig is just perfect.

Stables done right work!!

Heyman also is just brilliant and I love the teases with Brock, I hope WWE string it out for a while yet
 

Sylar

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He's the biggest face in WWE and they are the biggest company, so he kinda is. He's supposed to be a heel and acts like one most of the time, but he's the most liked and vocally supported WWE star
Given you said kinda shows your apprehension to saying this

Much like Cena, he could and should be bigger