De Rossi was a great player for Roma (we talking about the same De Rossi here?)
The ultimate tournament player?
- Thread starter BusbyMalone
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Guillermo Ochoa always seemed to look like a brick wall in tournaments for Mexico, but never really made any waves in European club football.
Klose & Podolski from the relatively recent Germans.
Carlos Gamarra & Davor Šuker had decent club careers (especially the latter), but they were different beasts on the international stage.
Roger Milla & Thomas N’kono were genuine international superstars despite not playing at top level in club football.
Carlos Gamarra & Davor Šuker had decent club careers (especially the latter), but they were different beasts on the international stage.
Roger Milla & Thomas N’kono were genuine international superstars despite not playing at top level in club football.
Well, it’s probably because more people had watched World Cups than Brazilian championships? This thread is about players whose performances were elevated when they were playing for their national side as opposed to their club career; not about associations. Pelé had produced the same out of this world performances at any stage that he had ever played.
If I were to recall correctly (and I admit, I’m no Bundesliga expert), Klose banged in the goals at Werder, was the ultimate Bayern buy but struggled to perform there. Ultimately had quite a forgettable club career relative to his international one. His couple of seasons are comparable Werner’s with Leipzig. If Werner doesn’t kick on, you wouldn’t remember him as world class for those two seasons.Really?
Obviously a legend in the game both club and international but I always felt Zidane in national team was a level or two better than his club form, he was supreme in truest sense of the world in 98,06 and 2000 euros.
Edit: in fact I feel a lot of france's abysmal Performance in 2002 can be chalked up to zizou's unfortunate injury pre tournament.
Edit: in fact I feel a lot of france's abysmal Performance in 2002 can be chalked up to zizou's unfortunate injury pre tournament.
He was, but he was even better for Italy.
Guillermo Ochoa fits the bill. Feels like he suddenly reappears from obscurity every 4 years with super-human perfomances at a world-cup.
Well, to be fair, I did create the thread and the thinking was very much players who you associate (as well as who played better) for their national team. Obviously, there's a level of ignorance in this because, as you say, the World Cup and any other major competitions will be watched by more people as opposed to leagues that may not get that sort of viewership
That's why I phrased it as more of a question in regards to Pele, as I don't pretend to have any experience in watching him for his club (mainly because I wasn't born!) but obviously, I know everything he did for Brazil.
Fair enough.But with Pelé it's simply a question of Europocentric nature of modern football & the disproportionate amount of footage that is left for us of his performances for Santos and for Brazil. I know that I certainly associate Pelé, Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Rivelino, Zico, Garrincha, Tostão, Jairzinho, Falcão, Didi, Socrates etc. with Brazil first — but if we count it this way it barely makes sense. Out of the high-profile Brazilians very few can rival their reputation for the NT and those would usually spend the best years of their career in Europe — like Ronaldinho for Barça, Cafu for Roma & Milan and Roberto Carlos for Real Madrid.
Yeah, that's definitely true. I suffer from that myself, to be honest. And I think many in the media do as well when they're too quick to proclaim a certain player "the best in the world" simply because he happens to play well in the Premier League. And I fall into that trap, too, just because I don't watch a great deal of football outside of the Premier League and the occasional La Liga game.
But with Pelé it's simply a question of Europocentric nature of modern football & the disproportionate amount of footage that is left for us of his performances for Santos and for Brazil. I know that I certainly associate Pelé, Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Rivelino, Zico, Garrincha, Tostão, Jairzinho, Falcão, Didi, Socrates etc. with Brazil first — but if we count it this way it barely makes sense. Out of the high-profile Brazilians very few can rival their reputation for the NT and those would usually spend the best years of their career in Europe — like Ronaldinho for Barça, Cafu for Roma & Milan and Roberto Carlos for Real Madrid.
So yeah, I can definitely buy that argument. I've seen some mention Maradona and I guess you could make a similar argument about him...
Although to a much lesser extent, because what he did with Napoli is well known. So maybe not.
Fari enough. I only knew he flopped at Barca and that he played for Brescia and Galatasaray. Hence why I thought that he wasn't as good at the club level.
It would've been the case if he wouldn't go to Napoli and win 2 league titles as well as a UEFA Cup in a direct competition with arguably the greatest club side of all-time (and Serie A in general was absolutely stacked with world class talent at the time).
Yeah, I agree. I don't subscribe to the idea of him being better for his country, just to be clear. What he did with Napoli was incredible. That documentary that Asif Kapadia did on him was great.
I'd say he was much better than Werner. Strikers were scoring much less than today at the time and his goal tallies were pretty good (or even spectacular in that 25 goal season - below 90 minutes per goal, that would hold up very well even today) with a ton of assists to boot. I'd compare his signing more with that of Lewandowski, even though he didn't work out nearly as well for them. But why that is I don't really know. He was a late bloomer and thus already 29 when he joined them and whereas he was the main striker for Bremen, Bayern paired him with more one-dimensional players like Luca Toni and Gomez, forcing him in a more supporting role I guess and Bayern were kind of low-scoring and a bit inconsistent during those years as well..
This is the biggest myth in football. They had some very good players, Maradona was just the icing on the cake that made them even better.
Michael Jordan was the main reason The Bulls won 6 Championships but Pippin, Rodman, Paxson were no slouches.
The same with that Napoli team, all the stars aligned and they spent a lot of money, it just so happened that having the best player in the world was always going to push that Napoli team to higher heights.
Ochoa Mexico
Renato Sanches.
Still a very good player at club level, but Thomas Muller
My first thought was Zidane, which is crazy given his club career too. But boy was he good at international tournaments, a colossus. And that was playing next to several other world class players too. He was another level.
Hector Herrera. I was always, always super impressed with him whenever he would feature for Mexico.
Sounded like he had a rather up and down club career though.
Sounded like he had a rather up and down club career though.
I feel like at this point you're tilting the balance too much other way. Without Maradona they would've been nowhere near the title — in 86/87 they've had 19 years old Ferrara, and the rest of that team was pretty unremarkable on an all-time scale. 89/90 was much better with seasoned Ferrara, Careca & Alemão, but it's still nowhere near the likes of Milan/Juve/Inter that were stacked to the brim with talent.
Comparing this to Chicago Bulls is weird. Jordan was more like Pelé in 1970's Brazil.
Karel Poborsky
A couple of Swiss players who have had solid club careers but I think always look better at International level are Shaqiri and Yann Sommer.
Giovanni Dos Santos always looked good for Mexico but never seemed to establish himself anywhere at club level.
Lukas Podolski had a good club career, but really rose to different heights with Germany.
Giovanni Dos Santos always looked good for Mexico but never seemed to establish himself anywhere at club level.
Lukas Podolski had a good club career, but really rose to different heights with Germany.
Paolo Rossi springs to mind. Although he did have some domestic success.
Maniche.
Yeah. Good call.
Would James Rodrigues count? I haven't followed his club career closely enough
I suspect the poster to be a very young'un or came to follow football for a very short time. Can't explain their post otherwise. Maradona 'playing well for a couple of seasons in Italy'... Good fecking Lord
That's absolutely ridiculous and you can't possibly have watched the Serie A at the time and then come out with such a post. Of course they had to strengthen their team to compete, but why do you think these good players (Careca, Alemao, Giordano, etc) came to Napoli instead of any other italian club? At that time Italy was the best and toughest league in world and dominated by the northern clubs. Maradona was the club's driving force from the moment he signed in 1984 to his exit in 1991. Despite his antics and drugs abuse, they never ever reached the heights they had when he was there before and after his spell.
Forget about the trophies, stats, goals, there's no other player that symbolized the revenge of the underdog on the mighty as much as Maradona. What he did at Napoli and for Argentina is stuff of legend. His short spell at Barca wasn't too shabby considering the fact that he had a hepatitis and his career almost ended by the Butcher of Bilbao. I won't tell you how revered he was at Boca Juniors.
The original post suggesting that he only was a tournament player is bordering on insanity or simply crass ignorance. That goes for those mentioning Pelé as well.
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I always associate Pierre Littbarski more with West Germany than his club career.
Salvatore Schillaci and Tomas Brolin
James Rodriguez.
Anyone suggesting Zidane never watched him enough at Juventus or Madrid.
Karl Heinz Forster- He was one of the best German defenders , played really well both club and country but what made him recognized around the world was his performances in World Cup 82 and 86 and another one was in Euro 80 and 84. He had played excellent in all of national tournaments. On the other hand, his performances in club was still great but not as dominant as in national team ( his national performance especially some matches in WC 86 was on god level).
Toni Schumacher- I will tell a story that you will excite. During 1983-1986, Harald was a world class gk for sure. His abilities was worth enough to be no1 in national team but his competitor name “Uli Stein” was also considered as a world class go for sure and he was more success in club level with Hamburg too, due to better overall outfield players, better coaching from Ernst Happle. Before World Cup 1986, I would say both Hamburg and Fc Koln were underperformed in Bundesliga especially Fc Koln and Schumacher was questioned and criticisized about his consistency and form in that season and many experts and pundits of German football considered Stein as a better gk. But not Franz Beckenbauer, In fact Kaiser Franz had knew that for a long time that Schumacher had a contract with Adidas and Adidas told DFB that you must sent Schumacher on the pitch. So, Beckenbauer told Stein “Uli you are world class but you can’t play here”. And when WC 86 began, Toni showed the world that he was a real tournament player and number 1 of the team. His performances were excellent from group stage to semi finals especially matches vs Mexico, Morocco and France. Unfortunately , he played mediocre in finale against Maradona’s Argentina. After that he received a silver ball in WC 1986.
30 years later, Stein said “if I played in final 1986 instead Toni, we would be World Cup champion”.
For me, Toni played well in all of tournaments 2 World Cup (82 and 86) and 2 Euro (80 and 84).
Paul Pogba- I think everyone knows him.
Guillermo Ochoa- For me, his performaces in club system are inconsistency and not reliable but when it comes to national team. He always performs really well both CONCAF gold clubs and World Cup( still good but not excellent).
James Rodriguez- I think everyone knows him.
Bobby Moore- Why I say him?
First of all, this guy played at excellent level both club and country but in country, he had a special buff imho. He played at super god level ( above his regular club level) in England at World Cup 66 and 70. In Euro 68, he wasn’t on his 66 and 70 levels and after 1972 both club and country , his performances had downgraded due to age.
Moore at Westham- excellent/ World Class/god
Moore at WC 66 and 70- Super god/ goat level
So, I conclude that he is a bit weird and special case.
Toni Schumacher- I will tell a story that you will excite. During 1983-1986, Harald was a world class gk for sure. His abilities was worth enough to be no1 in national team but his competitor name “Uli Stein” was also considered as a world class go for sure and he was more success in club level with Hamburg too, due to better overall outfield players, better coaching from Ernst Happle. Before World Cup 1986, I would say both Hamburg and Fc Koln were underperformed in Bundesliga especially Fc Koln and Schumacher was questioned and criticisized about his consistency and form in that season and many experts and pundits of German football considered Stein as a better gk. But not Franz Beckenbauer, In fact Kaiser Franz had knew that for a long time that Schumacher had a contract with Adidas and Adidas told DFB that you must sent Schumacher on the pitch. So, Beckenbauer told Stein “Uli you are world class but you can’t play here”. And when WC 86 began, Toni showed the world that he was a real tournament player and number 1 of the team. His performances were excellent from group stage to semi finals especially matches vs Mexico, Morocco and France. Unfortunately , he played mediocre in finale against Maradona’s Argentina. After that he received a silver ball in WC 1986.
30 years later, Stein said “if I played in final 1986 instead Toni, we would be World Cup champion”.
For me, Toni played well in all of tournaments 2 World Cup (82 and 86) and 2 Euro (80 and 84).
Paul Pogba- I think everyone knows him.
Guillermo Ochoa- For me, his performaces in club system are inconsistency and not reliable but when it comes to national team. He always performs really well both CONCAF gold clubs and World Cup( still good but not excellent).
James Rodriguez- I think everyone knows him.
Bobby Moore- Why I say him?
First of all, this guy played at excellent level both club and country but in country, he had a special buff imho. He played at super god level ( above his regular club level) in England at World Cup 66 and 70. In Euro 68, he wasn’t on his 66 and 70 levels and after 1972 both club and country , his performances had downgraded due to age.
Moore at Westham- excellent/ World Class/god
Moore at WC 66 and 70- Super god/ goat level
So, I conclude that he is a bit weird and special case.
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Torsten Frings always struck me as someone who stepped up in tournaments.
Honestly can't think of many that truly satisfy the criterion, off the top of my head. Sergio Goycochea (1990 World Cup and 1993 Copa América) disappointed in the European leagues, but was pretty good for River Plate. You could say Angelos Charisteas (2004 European Championship), but he only had one memorable tournament. Dunga (the entirety of the 1990s with Brazil) spend some quality years at Fiorentina, so he would probably be well known even if you exclude his Seleção performances. James Rodríguez (2014 World Cup) had some good seasons for Porto and Monaco. At surface level, some of the brightest contributors for Chile's Copa América winners appear to be decent options — but someone like Jorge Valdivia was an acclaimed performer with Palmeiras, and Gary Medel had a couple of noteworthy stints in South American leagues. The combination of overexposure during international tournaments (especially in eras where club football wasn't globally televised) and lack of visibility for smaller and non-European leagues/clubs seems to the primary issue in many cases, rather than lack of production at club level.
Oh, the Thomas Müller argument is a rather puzzling; can't really agree with that. And there might be an element of selection bias involved with his international tournaments as he wasn't excellent in the 2018 World Cup or the 2016 European Championship, for example. At club level, he was a mainstay for Bayern when they reached the Champions League final under van Gaal, scored the opening goal of the 2012 Champions League final, really good when they won the treble under Heynckes (with 8 goals in the Champions League), and instrumental when they won another treble under Flick (with a record 21 assists in the Bundesliga alone). Sure, he hasn't won the Ballon D'Or or some such purely for the strength of his club achievements — but overall, he has 25 assists in the Champions League (almost as many as Iniesta or Benzema) to go with 50 goals (more than Shevchenko or Inzaghi), and 150+ Bundesliga assists (the highest figure since at least the '90s). That's a historically significant club career by most metrics. And with regard to Pelé, of course he is more associated with his World Cup triumphs, as those were a widely broadcasted and celebrated events — rather than his impeccable Santos career, as the garden-variety football watcher was not witness to their myriad escapades on a regular basis.
Oh, the Thomas Müller argument is a rather puzzling; can't really agree with that. And there might be an element of selection bias involved with his international tournaments as he wasn't excellent in the 2018 World Cup or the 2016 European Championship, for example. At club level, he was a mainstay for Bayern when they reached the Champions League final under van Gaal, scored the opening goal of the 2012 Champions League final, really good when they won the treble under Heynckes (with 8 goals in the Champions League), and instrumental when they won another treble under Flick (with a record 21 assists in the Bundesliga alone). Sure, he hasn't won the Ballon D'Or or some such purely for the strength of his club achievements — but overall, he has 25 assists in the Champions League (almost as many as Iniesta or Benzema) to go with 50 goals (more than Shevchenko or Inzaghi), and 150+ Bundesliga assists (the highest figure since at least the '90s). That's a historically significant club career by most metrics. And with regard to Pelé, of course he is more associated with his World Cup triumphs, as those were a widely broadcasted and celebrated events — rather than his impeccable Santos career, as the garden-variety football watcher was not witness to their myriad escapades on a regular basis.
For me, I would say that Maradona’s performance at World Cup 86 boosted him about in term of goat status. His performances at that World Cup were excellent in almost every single matches. Imho, Maradona 86 was the best tournaments performances of all time and his performances with Napoli, a lot of guys have already said that he changed Napoli. Maradona’s Napoli had fought some of the best clubs of all time like Sacchi’s Milan and Trappatoni’s Juve( first two seasons) and other strong contenders like Briegel’s Verona, Rummenigge’s Inter, Matthaus’s Inter, Brazilian duo’s (Cerezo and Falcao)Roma( only 1season),Sampdoria, Junior’s Torino, Diaz’s Avellino, Atalanta and very super strong Fioretina. He won against a lot of super strong teams and he was the real protagonist of his team, despite after 1987 Napoli had bought some stars to the club.
I would say if Diego couldn’t win World Cup 86 with Argentina, he would still be top 5 players of all time. His contributions with Napoli were unmatched but the debate will be funnier about second to fifth places and I’m sure if he couldn’t win, we would see Cruff vs Maradona vs Kaiser vs Di Stefani heat debate for second places for sure( before Messi and CR7). Personally if he didn’t win, Cryuff‘s fans will debate about this topic for sure.
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Miroslav Klose and Guillerme Ochoa spring to mind immediately...
Enzo Scifo.