The Virgin League Draft - Physiocrat vs. Šjor Bepo & Gio (GROUP E)

With players in their 3 year career peak, who would win?


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Invictus

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Physiocrat........................................................................................................................Šjor Bepo & Gio
..........VS...........



Team Physiocrat (H. Crespo dropped for J-P. Papin)

Tactics Overview


Tactics
– Direct/ Mixed


Formation - Out of possession 4411, in possession it is somewhat fluid. This gives an idea of how it could look.



Defensive Line Balanced

Marking – Zonal

Schuster is at the heart of the side who can drop deep to play make and also burst forward. Cueleman’s (Onze Bronze Winner in 81’, behind Kaller and Breitner) role is that of an attacking 8. Out of possession his job is to use his stamina and imposing physicality to unsettle Pirlo on the ball. In possession Cuelemans will either join Crespo as an SS utilising his aerial and shooting ability (37 in 94 games at his peak as a midfielder) allowing Albert to move into the AM position or stay a little further back to allow Albert the freedom to roam further forward – Albert is a Ballon D’or winner with excellent dribbling and scoring ability (79 goals in 76 games at his peak).

Ballon D’or winning Papin is the all-round, quick striker, good in the air, decent feet and is a tremendous volleyer (63 goals in 95 games at his peak including one season in Serie A). Zagallo takes his Brazil national side role as the hardworking left winger with an excellent cross on him to provide in the air for Papin and Cuelemans as well as lower balls for Albert. Carrick provides excellent positioning and defensive nous to keep an eye on Hideguti, plus of course he has great unshowy passing.

Zmuda marshals the defence with his excellent organising and game reading ability. He was probably Poland’s best ever CB appearing in 4 World Cups and is joint third on the all-time World Cup appearances. Partnering him is the uncompromising Santamaria, known as The Wall, who held the fort in the incredibly attacking Real side of the 50s and was regarded as one of the best CBs of his time. He will provide an excellent complement to Zmuda. Crazy Horse Hughes will play as a balanced left-back and Bessonov the attacking right back, utilising his stamina and crossing ability to provide for Papin and Cuelemans. Finally, I have the greatest Belgian keeper of all-time, Jean-Marie Pfaff and winner of the IFFHS’s Best Goalkeeper in 1987.



Team Šjor Bepo & Gio (B.Dietz dropped for V. Candela)

DEFENCE
Led by Carlos Mozer who became the defensive bedrock for 3 of the best teams of the 1980s: the world-conquering Flamengo side, and serial European Cup finalists Benfica and Marseille. He will be the athletic ball-playing sweeper next to Riccardo Ferri who was a defensive stalwart in Serie A in its hey-day and despite the lofty company was ranked among the top 2-3 central defenders in the league for 3 seasons. Behind him is his colleague for club and country Walter Zenga: their partnership for Inter and Italy was almost inpenetrable in the late 1980s and at the 1990 World Cup. Supporting on each side are the French pair of the one-man flank Vincent Candela and the all-rounder Willy Sagnol.

MIDFIELD

The midfield is built around Andrea Pirlo so pivotal as the creative force behind Milan, Juventus and Italy. His Europe and world-beating partnership with Gattuso gains an upgrade in the ultimate midfield dynamo and hound-dog in N'Golo Kante. Bringing goal threat, passing range, ball-carrying and loads of hustle is Paul Gascoigne who was simply unplayable for much of his peak 3-year period.

ATTACK
Nandor Hidegkuti
is the centrepoint of the attack: injecting goals (39 in 69 for Hungary, over 300 in his career), creativity (bazillions of assists), and'intelligence 'fine technique and tactical guile' [Sebes]. Racing from the left is Claudio Lopez who will relish the ability of Hidegkuti to create space. Surging from the right is Kylian Mbappe whose 3-year peak is starting to look ridiculously stacked (a goals+assists to games ratio of 1:1 and rising in L1 and CL, irrespective of opponent; and a World Cup capped off by that R9-esque demolition of Argentina).

KEY POINTS
  • Strong midfield trio who should take control of the tie with arguably the most effective deep-lying playmaker and ball-winner in the pool. Bursting dangerously forward from midfield will be pre leg break Paul Gascoigne and he has the tools to find a way past two of Petit/Carrick/Schuster/Cocu.
  • Clean front three based around the original false 9 Hidegkuti, flanked by the full-back eviscerating Mpabbe and the surging Claudio Lopez. Mbappe's pace and trickery will cause Hughes plenty of problems while Lopez's speed will make life uncomfortable for the Zmuda/Santamaria partnership.



Good luck @Physiocrat @Šjor Bepo @Gio!
 

harms

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I think my vote doesn't count? I liked the previous Ceulemans-Albert positioning more.

Lovely team from Sjor/Gio, brilliant midfield and the Hidegkuti-Mbappé link is looking tasty.
 

Himannv

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Voted for sjorgio. I'm somewhat unhappy that Pirlo never gets a fair run in these drafts. I mean, he was questioned even when flanked by Davids and Keane ffs.
 

Šjor Bepo

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@Physiocrat thats incredibly narrow defence when you are in possession, can see multiple chances of Pirlo isolating Mbappe on the counter and while i like crazy horse he would be toasted.
 

Šjor Bepo

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Bloody love Gazza but he is not my favorite player in this team, its this guy <3 Such a shame there isnt more footage of him when it comes to full games :(
My post on him for the Euro draft i think so only footage from there, will probably get bored until the game tonight so will try to find some club action as well from the genius.

Hungary’s much-revered team of the early fifties only became the Magical, Magnificent and Mighty Magyars when Hidegkuti established himself in the team as a result of his performances in the 1952 Olympics.
Hidegkuti took a position most akin to a attacking midfielder in the modern game. It was a role employed by Hungary before, but Hidegkuti became the last piece to fit into the team’s exceptional puzzle. In a side littered with footballing giants such as Ferenc Puskas, Sandor Kocsis, and Jozsef Bozsik, it was Hidegkuti who allowed them to flourish. His movement meant that defences struggled to pick him up leavinging huge gaps for Puskas or Kocsis to exploit. He was an intelligent player and used the freedom to devastating effect. When England played Hungary in 1953, it was Hidegkuti’s performance that left the established English tactics so bereft. Defender Harry Johnstone admitted he simply didn’t know how to mark him – he’d no idea whether to get tight and leave others in space, or gamble and leave Hidegkuti to roam where ever he wanted. Hidegkuti plundered a hat-trick and been a revelation. He’d proved that power and pace were redundant in comparison to near perfect technique married with intelligence.

Former England and Leeds United manager, Don Revie paid tribute to the influence of Hidegkuti in his autobiography: "In the summer of 1954 England and Scotland were knocked out of the World Cup series in Switzerland. That competition was won by Germany, but dominated by Hungary, who played with a deep-lying centre forward, Nandor Hidegkuti. Alongside him; Sandor Koscis and Ferenc Puskas, two of the greatest inside-forwards in the world. But whatever people claim of Koscis and Puskas, it was the man Hidegkuti who tore the England defence to shreds at Wembley in November 1953. It was Hidegkuti, again playing his hide-and-seek centre-forward game, who shattered England in the return match in Budapest in May 1954, when we were thrashed 7-1."


Nandor Hidegkuti at international cup:
Italy 0:3 Hungary(played 45, scored goal)
In May 1953, when Hungary beat Italy 3-0 in Rome, those of us lucky enough to be there could appreciate Hidegkuti's value; his balance, skill, flair and intelligence. "I played Hidegkuti," remembered Sebes, "even though he was only half fit, because I needed his fine technique and tactical guile to penetrate the world's toughest defence." Hidegkuti played, and scored, in the first half, after which Palotai took his place.
Switzerland 2:4 Hungary(subbed Palotas in 31' minute at 2:0 for Switzerland, scored one, assists unknown)

Austria 2:2 Hungary(assist and goal)

Hungary 2:4 Czechoslovakia(assist and "assist" for penalty)

Switzerland 4:5 Hungary(cant find anything)

Yugoslavia 1:3 Hungary(2 assists)
 

Physiocrat

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@Physiocrat thats incredibly narrow defence when you are in possession, can see multiple chances of Pirlo isolating Mbappe on the counter and while i like crazy horse he would be toasted.
The main purpose of that graphic was to show the attacking positions. It need not be that narrow all the time and clearly would be wider given the Mbappe threat. I'll edit it when I can get back to my laptop.
 

Physiocrat

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I think my vote doesn't count? I liked the previous Ceulemans-Albert positioning more.
It is better for attacking purposes in the previous game but putting Ceulemans on Pirlo was my best way to negate his threat. Now Ceulemans is not Park but putting a lot of pressure on him in position from a physical beast will disrupt his rhythm and mitigate his creative threat from deep.

Interestingly, it seems the same side of the pitch has the most attacking players. Bessonov and Albert vs Candela, Gazza and Lopez. Not sure exactly how that will pan out yet but worth noting
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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Gazza in Seedorf's role does merit more thought, but ultimately I don't feel it gets the best of Gazza's brilliance. Kante would have trouble handling the defensive phase all on his own. Love Hidegkuti's flase 9 role and happy to see him prominently. Still undecided on whether a more prominent CF to occupy defence would be better for him to operate behind. Anyway, that attack looks tasty.

Carrick-Schuster reminds me of Carrick-Scholes in our '08 CL campaign but they do look sufficient esp with lack of dedicated #10 in opposition.

Think Physio would edge this.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Initial thoughts, shitty graphics from both managers.

Physio, such small names and overlapping with white lines. Pains to read.

Sjor/Gio, no point adding images if the names and years are going to be bigger than the images. Eyesore.
 

Physiocrat

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Carrick-Schuster reminds me of Carrick-Scholes in our '08 CL campaign but they do look sufficient esp with lack of dedicated #10 in opposition.
In certain respects that is true except Carrick is the DM here and he had more legs than Scholes at that stage of his career. Plus Schuster had more energy than Carrick in B2B mode had. Also there is Ceulemans ahead of them.

So yes it is similar but they have more help and legs.
 

Šjor Bepo

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Gazza in Seedorf's role does merit more thought, but ultimately I don't feel it gets the best of Gazza's brilliance. Kante would have trouble handling the defensive phase all on his own. Love Hidegkuti's flase 9 role and happy to see him prominently. Still undecided on whether a more prominent CF to occupy defence would be better for him to operate behind. Anyway, that attack looks tasty.
What Seedorf role? Kante one man midfield(defensive wise), did you ever watched Gazza? While i dont rate highly Pirlo in defensive phase he is also not a ghost.
 

Šjor Bepo

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Initial thoughts, shitty graphics from both managers.

Physio, such small names and overlapping with white lines. Pains to read.

Sjor/Gio, no point adding images if the names and years are going to be bigger than the images. Eyesore.
fair point
 

Šjor Bepo

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Boring and repetitive question but, @Šjor Bepo, do Candela and Sagnol bomb on at the same time or just one?
Both arrows are there as usually if you dont have arrows on them(and have on other players) people or at least i assume its a defensive role. Both are playing their natural roles, Candela more attacking but nothing crazy like a wingback or something while Sagnol is playing his balanced game as usual.
So to answer your question, no i dont think they would bomb up in the same time.
 

Physiocrat

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Both arrows are there as usually if you dont have arrows on them(and have on other players) people or at least i assume its a defensive role. Both are playing their natural roles, Candela more attacking but nothing crazy like a wingback or something while Sagnol is playing his balanced game as usual.
So to answer your question, no i dont think they would bomb up in the same time.
Thought so. Slight nit pick, wouldn't you want a more attacking full-back on the right to keep Mbappe more central for most of the game? It seems a slight waste of him. Whilst I have Albert right he is at least overlapped by Bessonov
 

Šjor Bepo

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Thought so. Slight nit pick, wouldn't you want a more attacking full-back on the right to keep Mbappe more central for most of the game? It seems a slight waste of him. Whilst I have Albert right he is at least overlapped by Bessonov
Why? He is playing pretty much his natural game(mixing between staying wide and making inside runs). Comparison between him(natural wide forward) and Albert(second striker) is bizarre. Not watched a lot of Kehrer and Pavard but from what i saw, Sagnol trumps both in the offensive phase. Other then those two he had Dani Alves in his grandpa shoes, cant see him being batshit offensive neither, specially cause he dropped his offensive workload in terms of runs a fair bit even at Barca few years before(and became a better player for it IMO).
 

Physiocrat

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Why? He is playing pretty much his natural game(mixing between staying wide and making inside runs). Comparison between him(natural wide forward) and Albert(second striker) is bizarre. Not watched a lot of Kehrer and Pavard but from what i saw, Sagnol trumps both in the offensive phase. Other then those two he had Dani Alves in his grandpa shoes, cant see him being batshit offensive neither, specially cause he dropped his offensive workload in terms of runs a fair bit even at Barca few years before(and became a better player for it IMO).
Mbappe is best at dribbling and scoring goals. He is not the most creative of players. You want him centrally to do as much damage as possible. Also I don't think the comparison with Albert is that far off. In current tactics most historic second-strikers would either be false 9s or wide-forwards (Mbappe would have been a striker or second-striker, probably the latter in the 90s) Albert is more creative than Mbappe and would be a false 9 but the point is still the same, these players are at their best centrally which is why a more attacking RB would make more sense for Mbappe.
 

Šjor Bepo

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Mbappe is best at dribbling and scoring goals. He is not the most creative of players. You want him centrally to do as much damage as possible. Also I don't think the comparison with Albert is that far off. In current tactics most historic second-strikers would either be false 9s or wide-forwards (Mbappe would have been a striker or second-striker, probably the latter in the 90s) Albert is more creative than Mbappe and would be a false 9 but the point is still the same, these players are at their best centrally which is why a more attacking RB would make more sense for Mbappe.
Ok, so why isnt Mbappe playing centrally or in front of a wingback for neither PSG or France? He is playing pretty much the same role he is playing his whole short career in front of a player that is better offensively(id probably give the edge to Sagnol over grandpa Alves though dont have a strong opinion of it) then all his teammates for both club and country. Its like he is having a fecking Tassotti behind(and even then i would be okay with it!)....

3:14
World Cup Final, Extra Time, Sagnol creating a chance for Zidane with a lovely cross.
 
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harms

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I find it hard to imagine Florian Albert being at his best in this role. Today he'd be either a false 9, or a number 10. His by far the best qualities were his vertical runs in central zones, goalscoring and through-balls. It's not a coincidence that for Hungary his best partner was Ferenc Bene – a goalscoring wide forward, whose pace and off-the-ball movement suited Albert's passing so well. Put him in Firmino's role, he'd provide Mané and Salah with chance after chance. Here he doesn't have anyone running in front of him aside from Papin – even on the left you have a more traditional winger in Zagallo.

Compare that to Mbappé, who literally plays in that role and uses wide spaces to take full advantage of his insane pace. For PSG he plays either on the right of 4-3-3 (Neymar-Cavani/Icardi-Mbappé) or as a second striker next to Cavani/Icardi with Neymar as a number 10. Sagnol was a brilliant crosser/overlapper as well and for Bayern him and Lizarazu were often used as wingbacks in 5-men defense.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Physio has a great option to fix that right flank conundrum. He just hasn’t used it in both the games. Wonder if he considered it.
 

Enigma_87

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I'm not sure why @Physiocrat didn't just go with Schuster as RM in a bog standard 4-4-2.

Zagallo has the work rate and Albert will be in his best role as a SS. Ceulemans also looks like a good fit next to Carrick.
 

Physiocrat

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I find it hard to imagine Florian Albert being at his best in this role. Today he'd be either a false 9, or a number 10. His by far the best qualities were his vertical runs in central zones, goalscoring and through-balls. It's not a coincidence that for Hungary his best partner was Ferenc Bene – a goalscoring wide forward, whose pace and off-the-ball movement suited Albert's passing so well. Put him in Firmino's role, he'd provide Mané and Salah with chance after chance. Here he doesn't have anyone running in front of him aside from Papin – even on the left you have a more traditional winger in Zagallo.
I won't get the best out of Albert that is true although I do think he has more options than you claim. Ceulemans will be more of an SS here than in the previous game plus there's Schuster making forward runs and Bessonov on the overlap. Now why am I not getting the best out of Albert? So that I can reduce the influence of Pirlo by more than I reduce the influence of Albert. This is why Ceulemans is positioned in the hole to harry Pirlo all game. He had the stamina and physique to do a job on him. For those less familiar with him this is the best video of him (he's not doing a job on a DLP here it just highlights his physicality and attacking ability but gives you a decent idea of what he was like)-

 
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Physiocrat

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One guy who has been overlooked so far is the Ballon d'Or winning Papin - 63 goals in 95 games at his peak including one season in Serie A . He can keep Ferri and Mozer busy especially with through balls from Schuster (I want him centrally to maximise his influence) and crosses from Zagallo and Bessonov. This goal compilation is incredibly and certainly worth watching -

 

Physiocrat

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I'm not sure why @Physiocrat didn't just go with Schuster as RM in a bog standard 4-4-2.

Zagallo has the work rate and Albert will be in his best role as a SS. Ceulemans also looks like a good fit next to Carrick.
As I mentioned just above, I wanted Ceulemans to be in the best position to disrupt Pirlo. I also want Schuster to be central to influence the game as much as possible with his great passing, it is much better than Ceulemans'. Albert is outwide only in the defensive phase and moves to AM/SS in possession. It isn't perfect for Albert but not massively off for him
 

Šjor Bepo

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As I mentioned just above, I wanted Ceulemans to be in the best position to disrupt Pirlo. I also want Schuster to be central to influence the game as much as possible with his great passing, it is much better than Ceulemans'. Albert is outwide only in the defensive phase and moves to AM/SS in possession. It isn't perfect for Albert but not massively off for him
In order to have some effect on Pirlo game you need a collective unit that will press high(which isnt your tactic) or you need a specific type of player like Park who really was unique in that regard - tactically brilliant, great defender, quick, low center of gravity(though if i do remember correctly United was quite agressive in that game and pressed well as a unit). Think indy picked Park and that was one team both gio and myself wanted to avoid even though it was in lower half of our rating table(sorry indy :D).
You cant just pick any random hardworking player and expect him to do the same, if that was the case Pirlo would be shut down a zillion times in his career like that night at Old Trafford and would be rated to a degree of Tom Huddlestone. From my knowledge, Ceulemans was pretty tall and not really agile so from the start you dont really have a good base for Operation Pirlo.
 

Synco

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I remember Sagnol having good offensive presence in Bayern's 2000s team, although crossing was more prominent than I'd expect it for Sjor's setup.

So a bit unrelated to this game, but Sagnol -> Ballack ( "cross from half-space") was probably the next best thing after Kaltz -> Hrubesch in the BL.
 

Synco

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And it's time to finally give Pirlo the credit he deserves. Kante/Gazza & Hidegkuti as a false 9 is a great environment for him to boss the game from deep. He can also feed the wing forwards on occasion.

Plus he was great at dodging pressure, so I don't think he'd have problems to play his game.
 

Šjor Bepo

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I remember Sagnol having good offensive presence in Bayern's 2000s team, although crossing was more prominent than I'd expect it for Sjor's setup.

So a bit unrelated to this game, but Sagnol -> Ballack ( "cross from half-space") was probably the next best thing after Kaltz -> Hrubesch in the BL.
Mind you, Claudio Lopez scored one of the best headers you will ever see! :D

1:01

Though what i liked from Sagnol was his passing ability which makes him much more dangerous then his actual crossing, had those dinky little passes to forwards from half distance. Can see a pattern of Sagnol -> Hidegkuti -> Mbappe developing quite nicely.
 

Physiocrat

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In order to have some effect on Pirlo game you need a collective unit that will press high(which isnt your tactic) or you need a specific type of player like Park who really was unique in that regard - tactically brilliant, great defender, quick, low center of gravity(though if i do remember correctly United was quite agressive in that game and pressed well as a unit). Think indy picked Park and that was one team both gio and myself wanted to avoid even though it was in lower half of our rating table(sorry indy :D).
You cant just pick any random hardworking player and expect him to do the same, if that was the case Pirlo would be shut down a zillion times in his career like that night at Old Trafford and would be rated to a degree of Tom Huddlestone. From my knowledge, Ceulemans was pretty tall and not really agile so from the start you dont really have a good base for Operation Pirlo.
I am not saying I can entirely shut down Pirlo. It is not a strategy I would use unless I had a very hardworking AM/SS who was actually good going forward too otherwise you lose too much attacking wise just putting Darren Fletcher at AM. This is a poor form of argument but PES stats has Park at 86 agility and Cuelemans at 82. He is not Fellaini. Harms description of Ceulemans as a poor man's Gullit is relatively fair. Pirlo will have a relatively more difficult time with Ceulemans there than Albert so given Pirlo is your best player, mitigating his influence is worth while.
 

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Close game imo, two good sides. Agree with @harms on Albert’s role though, seems an overly thought out answer to a minor problem. I don’t think having a narrower set up on one flank is an issue someone like Bessonov is motoring down the flank. Schuster on the right is also an option, though I wouldn’t move him from the middle personally given he’s physio’s best player.

For Sjor / Gio there’s lots to like about that team. From a Pirlo perspective the wing forwards look like flawless choices, the pace is perfect for Pirlo’s long-range passing and you can see that side turning defence to attack in an instant. I agree with @Edgar Allan Pillow on the balance of the midfield though, doesn’t quite seem a side built around Pirlo and would probably prefer more of a facilitator instead of Gazza, or more of a prototype number #9 than Hidegkuti whose role overlaps with that of a #10 playmaker - when you’ve got a player as dominant as Pirlo it feels like one too many central players looking to get on the ball personally.

Also on Kante I think he was always better as the deepest CM as at Leicester as opposed to the #8 role he’s played at Chelsea in front of Jorginho.
 

harms

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Also on Kante I think he was always better as the deepest CM as at Leicester as opposed to the #8 role he’s played at Chelsea in front of Jorginho.
He wasn’t really the deepest next to Drinkwater or Matic. They usually played as holding midfielders with him running around, winning the ball. The issue with Sarri/Lampard is not that he is not the deepest midfielder, it’s that he is asked to play a way bigger role in the attacking phase, which is not his forte. I doubt that this is the case here.
 

Šjor Bepo

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For Sjor / Gio there’s lots to like about that team. From a Pirlo perspective the wing forwards look like flawless choices, the pace is perfect for Pirlo’s long-range passing and you can see that side turning defence to attack in an instant. I agree with @Edgar Allan Pillow on the balance of the midfield though, doesn’t quite seem a side built around Pirlo and would probably prefer more of a facilitator instead of Gazza, or more of a prototype number #9 than Hidegkuti whose role overlaps with that of a #10 playmaker - when you’ve got a player as dominant as Pirlo it feels like one too many central players looking to get on the ball personally.
I dont really get it, Pirlo shined for both Milan and Juve with similar types of players who in fact were both much more on the ball then Gazza - Seedorf and Pogba. Lets focus on Seedorf as we are using Milan version of Pirlo, while both were of the same type(complete/b2b midfielders with great ball ability) their style was a bit different so while Seedorf in those days was more of a secondary playmaker we have Gazza who will roam around, use his powerful runs from midfield to break defensive system all while staying tactically disciplined and with good ball usage in first two thirds.
If anything, based on your views what Pirlo needs, he would have a bigger clash with Seedorf.
As for Hidegkuti, its just baffling....F9 overlapping or disrupting a deep-lying playmaker - its not like Pirlo had great success with Rui Costa and Hidegkuti with Bozsik.

Also on Kante I think he was always better as the deepest CM as at Leicester as opposed to the #8 role he’s played at Chelsea in front of Jorginho.
Couldnt disagree more. He was never a DM, never. His biggest qualities are his pressing and ball winning skills, to use them you have to give him freedom to press and hound and that is not happening in a deep role of pretty much all systems bar Total Football.
His problems with Sarri(think with Lampard it was more injuries that harmed him) were as harms said that he was asked to do to much, in the buildup he was pretty much taking positions of a right sided n10 which is insane and given the personnel* on the pitch team needed him to play as one and while being good/underrated on the ball he is as far from a creative player as you can be.

*Kovacic - as good as he is, he will just recycle the ball so paired with a Lidl Pirlo you really need an attacking third midfielder, specially as the front three was also not the most creative and everything went through one player - Hazard.
Right side was a mess - Azpilicueta who is a defensive fullback paired with Pedro who is a turd and Willian who turns every full moon.
Barkley/RLC - right types, serious lack of quality

on top of that have in mind Chelsea in general was a defensive, rigid team so they struggled as a whole with a complete opposite way of playing that Sarri wanted to implement.