Theon VS Aldo - All time 3 yr peak - Auction draft

Who would win based on selected 3 yr peak?


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Annahnomoss

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TACTICS

A balanced and complimentary 4-3-3 designed around the legendary Franz Beckenbauer in defence - reunited with teammates with whom Beckenbauer won the '74, '75 and '76 European Cups, the '72 European Championships and the '74 World Cup, and was voted a record five times in the Top three of the Ballon d'Or.

There are no better players to compliment Beckenbauer than Vogts and Schwarzenbeck – they provide Beckenbauer the freedom to marshal the game and move forward in possession.

He was the puppet master, standing back and pulling the strings which earned West Germany and Bayern Munich every major prize."

MIDFIELD

Desailly plays his AC Milan holding midfield role and provides a secure base for an offense which is bursting with creativity. Offering unmatched physicality, workrate and positional discipline, Desailly was the gold standard for this role in the mid-1990's and the highest ranked midfielder in Europe in the '94 '95 and '96 Ballon d'Or.

His partner Luisito Suarez knits things together and provides the link in midfield - with sublime long ball accuracy he's a constant threat for through balls over the top to Romario, or out wide to George Best.

In contrast to the last game, the deep-lying Inter Milan version of Suárez is used, where he became the orchestrator and the lynch pin of the legendary La Grande Inter side of the mid 60's, winning back to back European Cups and the '64 European Championships with Spain.

Finishing 1st (1960), 2nd (1961), 2nd (1964) 3rd (1965) and 4th (1959) in the Ballon d'Or, Luisito is in the elite tier of the games greatest midfielders.

Desailly - MOTM performance in the Champions League Final
ATTACK

In attack three all time great Brazilian legends offer pace, dribbling and an outrageous goal threat - at their peak Romario scored 133 in 155 games, Zico scored 188 in 198 games and Ronaldinho scored 85 goals in 141 games for Barcelona.

As the third highest goalscoring Brazilian ever (behind Romario and Pele), Zico's goal threat as a no10 was almost unmatched. Throw in the sensational dribbling, defence-splitting passing and vision that will dovetail beautifully with Romario, and we've got a set-up that will maximise his considerable talents.

Socrates
"Zico was the king. He was much better than everyone else. When there is a king, the rest fight to be close to the king. So it was Zico who should lead. It was Machiavellian, but I was the prince and Zico the king."

Rounding off the attack is George Best - Manchester United's greatest ever player and arguably the best winger in the history of the game. With Socrates offering minimal width on the left, Facchetti should leave plenty of space in behind when he breaks forward.

With the addition of Best the attacking possesses the balance and width to hit the opposition from all angles - Romario will stretch the pitch vertically, always playing on the shoulder and darting in behind, whilst George Best, Ronaldinho and Roberto Carlos stretch the pitch horizontally, creating gaps between the lines for Zico and Luisito to play in.

Pele
''George Best was the greatest player in the world.''

Denis Law
''From 1964 to 1969 he was the best player in the world''

John Giles
''He had the lot: balance, pace, two good feet, he was brave, strong and a good header of the ball. Pele wasn’t as gifted as George Best and I would put George above Cruyff because he had more heart''

BETTER BACKLINE

- Both attacks are excellent but Aldo is facing a better defence which is proven at the highest level and built to compliment Franz Beckenbauer - the best defender in the draft.

- Moreover with Socrates offering very little natural width on the left means, this means that Berti Vogts can tuck in tight to next to Beckenbauer and reduce the space for Aldo's forwards to operate in.

- The backline is also protected by the arguably the most effective pure destroyer in the draft - Desailly was physically imposing with wonderful stamina and graft. He's a better shield for this defence than Monti.

COUNTER ATTACKS FROM DEFENCE

- With Beckenbauer's technical ability and accurate passing in defence we have a greater ability to release swift counter attacks.

- When possession turns over Beckenbauer can release the ball and launch rapid counter attacks to Best or Ronaldinho on the flanks - or through the lines to Zico.

- Luisito Suarez was the heart of Inter Milan's Cattenacio - a tactic built on counter attacks with Suarez the architect and almost solely dependent on the playmaker.

RONALDINHO/CARLOS FLANK VS GENTILE

- In my opinion this is by far the most dangerous match up in the game and most likely mismatch on the pitch.

- Garrincha will offer little in the way of support - he was a notoriously lazy player and tracking the lung bursting runs of Roberto Carlos is something he is incapable of doing.

- Aldo will presumably put Monti on the left of midfield to cover George Best, which leaves Bozsik on the right. Bozsik was a playmaking midfielder who lacked any real mobility - Like Garrincha he is going to offer little in the way of support out on the Ronaldinho/Carlos flank.

-
Even with better support Gentile would be terrorised by Ronaldinho/Roberto Carlos - It's a devastating 2 vs 1 situation and Gentile is not up to the task on dealing with it.

- In reality, Gentile is a liablility to get sent off against Ronaldinho or give away a number of penalties. He wasn't a clever defender and his way of dealing with Zico and Maradona was to try and kick them out of the game, which won't wash here.

- At his peak for Barcelona Ronaldinho was unstoppable, backed up by non other than Roberto Carlos - he is too quick and too skillful for Gentile.


 
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Annahnomoss

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Three Year Peaks :

Sepp Maier : 1973-76. Three European Cups, Two League Titles, World Cup 74 Champion, Best Keeper at the World Cup, German Footballer of the Year in 75, Runner up in Euro 76.

Claudio Gentile : 1981-84. Two league titles, UEFA Cup and League Cup, World Cup 82 Champion, Team of the tournament.

Paul McGrath : 1991-94. League Cup, 2nd place in league with Aston Villa, PFA Player of the year 93, WC 94 heroics vs Italy (Baggio).

Alessandro Nesta : 2000-03. Serie A Defender of the year ALL 4 years. 2003 Champions League Winner.

Giacinto Facchetti : 1965-68. Serie A, European Cup, UEFA Euro Winner. 2nd place in Ballon D'or 65.

Luis Monti : 1931-34. Three Seria A titles, WC 1934 Winner.

Jozsef Bozsik : 1952-55. Second place in WC 1954 with Hungary, Olympic Title in 1952.

Socrates : 1981-84. SAM Footballer of the year 83, league win and key part of Brazil 82.

Garrincha : 1959-62. League titles with Botafago, WC wins with Brazil including one of the greatest individual efforts to carry a team to a WC win.

Pelé : 1968-71. WC 1970 Champion and Golden Ball. Brazilian League winner and top scorer.

Luis Ronaldo : 1996-99. 47 in 49 for Barca. 1998 WC second place and Golden Ball.


Back Five
In goal is the legendary German keeper Sepp Maier, the mainstay in goal for Bayern and Germany throughout their golden period in the 70s, well defended by the CB duo of Paul McGrath and Alessandro Nesta. The Irish and Italian compliment each other well, with Nesta being the class and McGrath being the Colossus. Nesta's defensive nous and reading of play, anticipation, pace and athleticism and immaculate tackling and blocking along with his composure that made defending look like an art, will go perfectly with McGrath's no nonsense aggressive style of defending. Flanking them are Claudio Gentile and Giacinto Facchetti - Gentile will assume his defensive full-back duties which he performed to world class levels shutting down some quality opponents in the process, which Facchetti will showcase why he was one of the pioneers of the attacking fullback position, flying up and down the left flank with tremendous strength, stamina and pace, undisputed defensive ability and one who relishes the big games like few others. He'll be providing a fair share of the team's width down the left, and it is fair to say, not many wingers can claim to have his beating.

All in all, the defensive line boasts of some unrivalled quality with 3/4 being brought up with the Italian discipline as the fundamental. The unit will remain tight, compact and put everything on the line to protect the goal, it will be a mountain to climb to break them down.

Midfield
Sitting in front of the back five are the classic duo of the ruthless Luis Monti and the 'peerless' Jozsef Bozsik. Monti proved himself as arguably the best defensive midfielder of his generation, and also a tremendous man marker, usually tasked with taking out the most dangerous threat of the opposition, and his WC winning heroics are well known. He'll be doing the dirty work and allow the metronome Hungarian to pull the strings and run the show. Arguably the greatest deep lying playmaker the game has seen, a pivotal figure throughout the dominance of his club and country, Bozsik will have the freedom to pick out runs all over the pitch with ease. Joining him as the third is the Brazilian legend Socrates. One of the most creative playmakers ever, Socrates dazzled audiences in the yellow shirt in the 1982 World Cup and was a huge part of the beautiful style of play that team displayed. His one touch passing, movement and final ball added with his underrated goal scoring ability would round up the midfield unit nicely.

And finally...



Joining the team is the greatest winger the game has seen - Garrincha! Inside, outside, be it going past a herd of defenders or stretching the play and providing service, Garrincha played the game with the spirit of Joga Bonito better than anyone else. He linked up with a young Pele and took Brazil to a WC win, and then was the talisman in getting the nation their second, an effort only behind Maradona's in the World Cup folklore. He brings what this team embodies the most, the Samba!

Possibly the greatest front two in the history of the game - the greatest number 9 and the greatest number 10! Luis Ronaldo and Pelé complete the team. The Brazilian duo make an insanely unstoppable front two, capable of practically everything. Physically, two beasts, absolute powerhouses. Both lightning quick with the ball. I won't go into how many goals they have scored, but it is a lot! One has three World Cups to his name, other a WC and a golden ball, and who was till very recently the all time top scorer in the WC. Big game giants, and would absolutely annihilate most defenses. In this setup, Ronaldo will be assuming his juggernaut role up front that he had in late 90s, while Pelé takes up the role of the talisman, which he played in the WC 1970 - and where he made everything in the greatest team to have played the game, tick. A true genius, and like anto aptly put, the best man to have in a team full of stars and make them shine. The man you need to let everyone play their natural game and still emerge as the leader and the superstar. The man who enables his team to play a brand of football as high as any connoisseur of the game can appreciate. There'll be no stopping them!

Together the three of the them with the fourth amigo Socrates, we will provide a show to remember, an array of passes never expected, or a piece of magic never disturbed. The teamwork of that four will be a sight to behold, individually they are all capable of ripping apart a defense, together, it would be at another level.

Against Gion :

- They have a great team, and a wonderful attack, but I have also packed the team with some great defenders, and ones who would cope with the threats - Nesta, as complete a CB as you can find, coupled with McGrath, a man with the heart of a lion and a great athlete, wouldn't be out of place dealing with someone like Romario. In Facchetti and Gentile, I have two Italian greats at the back, and it took a lot special to get the better of them.

- On the other side, great as Beckenbauer is, someone such as the physical lightning quick specimen such as Ronaldo is not one that the German would be pleased to face. It's not his venturing forward when on the ball I am referring to, but generally, in terms of style of play, you'd ideally want a really athletic and complete CB (someone like Thuram at his pomp, can probably think of matching Ronaldo athletically) there to have a better guard against Fenomeno.

- Garrincha should have joy against with Roberto Carlos looking to stop him.

- He's got some proven partnerships there, I've matched it with Brazilian synergy up front and Italian discipline at the back.

- Socrates was a wonderful deputy to Zico, he loves that role and is the first one to acknowledge a superior n10 in the team, given he was an amazing one himself. He'll work beautifully with Pelé in a similar role, sharing the attacking midfield duties at most times and with the attention going to Pelé most of the time, he is one player I believe will shine a lot here.

- I'll be a great threat on counters as well as when I am dominating the game, with the likes of Bozsik starting attacks and Ronaldo and Pele running onto the pass, or with Garrincha, Pele and Socrates twisting and turning players in tight spaces and feeding the great man up front. Tactical versatility is important in big games.

- The midfield battle would be great to watch, there's not much in there. But it has to be said that Pele made a team of superstars work to an extent not many others can imagine, it was really way more than the sum of the parts. Both the attacks are star studded but one is more functional and easier to imagine working together than the other.

- Ronaldinho is great, but his style of play wouldn't hurt Gentile, rather Gentile would be at home against him. Not someone who provides genuine width, and usually comes inside, which is Gentile's operational area, and he should be all over him throughout the game. Ronaldinho also wouldn't quite be as influential as a deputy to Zico like Socrates was. Zico really has a lot to owe to Socrates for making that 82 side wonderful, even if he was clearly the star of the team, but it is a bit difficult to see Dinho providing that role and not being the main man.

Overall I think it will be a close game in terms of score, there'll be times when I control the game and there'll be times when I will have to sit back and counter, and I am equipped of doing both in a functional and entertaining way.

Good luck, Gion!
 

Annahnomoss

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I just hope this doesn't turn silly regarding Gentile. :lol: Should be a great game!
 

Balu

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Seriously? Who fixed the draw so that those two teams face each other so early in the draft? It's fecking ridiculous.
 

Annahnomoss

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Seriously? Who fixed the draw so that those two teams face each other so early in the draft? It's fecking ridiculous.
Considering both teams are a little bit offensively balanced it turns it in to one great game. Would love to see it in reality.
 

Balu

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Considering both teams are a little bit offensively balanced it turns it in to one great game. Would love to see it in reality.
Yeah, in the final. Not in the quarterfinal.
 

Balu

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:D Can you see the videos in the OP by the way? Theon says he can see them, but I can't so I just wanted to make sure.
There are no videos in the op. I can see text, the two formation pics and the Samba time gif.
 

Fergus' son

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Two teams good enough to win the whole thing right here, can't separate them! Both absolutely brilliant!
 

MDFC Manager

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Wow, two near perfect teams!

I think Aldo has the slightly better attack, but Theon has better variety. Theon has the slightly better midfield and defense as well I think.
 

Annahnomoss

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Now I can see 3 videos. Did you change anything?
Yeah it was quite weird. I copied them from the PM and they were there when I was trying to edit them, I could see the video at that stage so I figured it was a post count limit that was the issue so deleted two but it still didn't work. So added the videos manually instead of copying and it worked.
 

Gio

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MANUEL NEUER (2012-2015)

World Cup: 2014
Bundesliga: 2012–13, 2013–14, 2014–15
UEFA Champions League: 2012–13
Germany Footballer of the Year: 2011, 2014
IFFHS World's Best Goalkeeper: 2013, 2014
FIFA World XI: 2013, 2014
UEFA Team of the Year: 2013, 2014
Ballon d'Or: 2014 (3rd)

FRANZ BECKENBAUER (1972-1976)

European Cup: 1973–74, 1974–75, 1975–76
Bundesliga: 1971–72, 1972–73, 1973–74
FIFA World Cup: 1974
FIFA World Cup All-Star Team: 1974
UEFA European Championship: 1972
UEFA Euro Team of the Tournament:: 1972, 1976
Germany Footballer of the Year: 1974, 1976
Ballon d'Or: 1972 (1st), 1973 (4th), 1974 (2nd), 1975 (2nd), 1976 (1st)

HANS-GEORG SCHWARZENBECK (1972-76)

European Cup: 1973–74, 1974–75, 1975–76
Bundesliga: 1971–72, 1972–73, 1973–74
FIFA World Cup: 1974
UEFA European Championship: 1972

BERTI VOGTS (1974-1977)

FIFA World Cup: 1974
Bundesliga: 1974–75, 1975–76, 1976–77
UEFA Cup: 1974–75
Germany Footballer of the Year: 1971, 1979

ROBERTO CARLOS (1998-2002)

Ballon D'Or: 2002 (2nd)
FIFA World Player of the Year: 1997 Silver Award
UEFA Defender of the Year: 2002, 2003
UEFA Champions League: 1998, 2000, 2002
FIFA World Cup: 1998 (2nd), 2002 (1st)
FIFA World Cup All-Star Team: 1998, 2002
Copa América: 1997, 1999
 

Gio

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MARCEL DESAILLY (1993-1996)

UEFA Champions League: 1992–1993
Serie A (2): 1993–94, 1995–96
UEFA Champions League: 1993–94
Supercoppa Italiana (2): 1994, 1996
UEFA Super Cup (2): 1993, 1994
Ballon D'Or 1994 (9th), 1995 (11th), 1996 (8th)

LUISITO SUAREZ (1960-1964)

La Liga: 1958–59, 1959–60
Copa del Rey: 1957, 1959
Fairs Cup: 1958, 1960
Serie A: 1962–63, 1964–65, 1965–66
European Cup: 1964, 1965
Intercontinental Cup: 1964, 1965
Ballon D'Or 1959 (4th), 1960 (1st), 1961 (2nd), 1964 (2nd), 1965 (3rd)

ZICO (1978-1982)

Rio State Championship: 1972, 1974, 1978, 1979, 1979 (extra), 1981, 1986
Brazilian Série A: 1980, 1982, 1983, 1987
Copa Libertadores: 1981 (best player and top scorer)
Intercontinental Cup: 1981
World Footballer of the Year 1981 - Guerin Sportivo, El Mundo, El Balon, Placar Magazine
South American Footballer of the Year 1981, 1982
1982 FIFA World Cup Bronze Boot
1982 FIFA World Cup All-Star Team

1978: 22 games, 19 goals
1979: 51 games, 65 goals
1980: 45 games, 40 goals
1981: 54 games, 39 goals
1982: 48 games, 44 goals
 

Gio

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GEORGE BEST (1966-1969)

First Division: 1964–65, 1966–67
European Cup: 1968
FWA Footballer of the Year: 1967–68
Ballon D'Or winner: 1968

RONALDINHO (2003-2006)

FIFA World Cup: 2002
FIFA Confederations Cup: 2005
La Liga: 2004-05, 2005-06
Supercopa: 2005, 2006
UEFA Champions League: 2005-06
FIFA World Player of the Year: 2004, 2005
UEFA and ESM Team of the Year: 2003-04, 2004-05, 2005-06

ROMARIO (1991-1994)

Eredivisie: 1991, 1992
La Liga: 1993–94
Supercopa de España: 1994; Runner-up: 1993
UEFA Champions League Runner-up: 1993–94
World Cup: 1994
World Cup 1994 Golden Ball
FIFA World Player of the Year 1994
FIFA World Player of the Year Runner 1993

1990/91: 29 games, 30 goals
1991/92: 17 games, 9 goals
1992/93: 36 games, 31 goals
1993/94: 47 games, 32 goals
 

crappycraperson

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Ya.. tough match up..

On first look Aldo's front 4 looks individually better than their counterparts except in once case. But then I think Zico + Romario might work better than Pele + Ronaldo. Garrincha and Best looks even BUT Mane is up against Carlos while Best faces a battle with Fachetti. Clear edge to Aldo here. Similarly Goofy on the left adds better dynamic to the attack than Socrates playing the wide drifting play marker role. Midfield battles looks dead even with very similar duos.
Beckenbauer is the X factor for Theon in defense but he suffers from having someone like Vogts on right instead of left. It will be a such a better match up for him if it was Vogts staying back to tackle Best and Carlos taking advantage of space vacated by Socrates. Instead I wonder if Carlos gets to play his natural role at all here even if Dessaily covers for him.

This really is marginal stuff but I guess it comes down to the flanks as to; how you feel about Goofy against Gentile and Mane against Carlos. I just give the edge to Aldo here keeping in mind how underrated Garrincha is in these draft at times for someone who is hailed the best winger ever.
 

Annahnomoss

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Ronaldinho-Carlos looks like a very dangerous route to goal here for Theon. Gentile alone will have to play the game of his life and then some to be able to stop that double threat which to boost is a great partnership as well. I don't love the fact that both teams more or less has four offensive players who will provide questionable defensive work and it is very possible to exploit that for future opponents. But like I said earlier, here both teams have a similar tactical structure so both teams will be banging back and forth all game.

Will wait to see if any changes are made but currently I am leaning towards Theon/Gio primarily because Socrates/Facchetti won't exploit Vogts the same way Ronaldinho/Carlos will get the best out of Gentile.

The joy from the magnificent central players won't be as easy and influential as they face some very good defenders and both teams have a full back who will like to fold inside to provide more or less a back three when the wing back is bombing forward. There would be a lot of goals in a match like this that is for sure though and I can see the team scoring first ending up winning it with a few goals.
 

Mciahel Goodman

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Both attacks are just ridiculous.

Incidentally, arguably the *7 best Brazilian attackers of all time (Rivaldo being the only other candidate).
 
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Moby

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What do people think about Beckenbauer up against two physically supreme legends such as Pele and Ronaldo? Would he still be able to influence the game the way he wishes with those two constantly running at him or would it be a difficult task and lead to openings? Whereas on the other hand someone like Nesta doesn't seem to have any weakness that could be clearly exposed by Romario.
 

Moby

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As for Carlos doubling up - fair enough but that would present a fair amount of risk at the back leaving Garrincha supported by Pele and Ronaldo open for counters with the likes of Bozsik pinging balls left and right. So, is that 2v1 really worth it?
 

Theon

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This really is marginal stuff but I guess it comes down to the flanks as to; how you feel about Goofy against Gentile and Mane against Carlos.
That's a balanced post Crappy so no real arguments there.

On the quoted part though you can't ignore George Best. In my opinion the most significant difference between the sides is that we have a significant wide threat on both sides of the pitch. Facchetti has instructions to go forward so he's going to be leaving just as much space in behind as Roberto Carlos. And as I mentioned in the OP, when possession turns over we have a better ability to launch counter attacks with Beckenbauer's passing - so Best is well set to impact the game and be just as influential as Garrincha.

I don't think the difference in quality between Facchetti and Roberto Carlos is as big as you suggest either, Facchetti's slightly better but both were world class fullbacks.

I would give the edge offensively to Roberto Carlos as well, which is why I think the Ronaldinho/R Carlos flank is the most dangerous in the game. I can't see any way that Gentile is going to deal with that considering the lack of support he has. I think he'll be overlapped on the outside all game by Roberto Carlos while he struggles to get to grips with Ronaldinho's dribbling and movement.
 

Moby

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I don't think the difference in quality between Facchetti and Roberto Carlos is as big as you suggest either, Facchetti's slightly better but both were world class fullbacks.
Defensively, it is a no contest, I'm afraid. With both being up against Best and Garrincha respectively, that is bound to make a difference.
 

Theon

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As for Carlos doubling up - fair enough but that would present a fair amount of risk at the back leaving Garrincha supported by Pele and Ronaldo open for counters with the likes of Bozsik pinging balls left and right. So, is that 2v1 really worth it?
Roberto Carlos made his career out of overloading the left flank, he's the gold standard for an attacking wingback role and I wouldn't swap him for any other player. He knows how to burst forward and get back into position. I also think that Desailly provides fantastic cover for the defence.

Also surely what you have just said is the same for Facchetti? You've got him going forward so Best will have the exact same opportunity to counter and I rate our passing from the back at a higher level. Beckenbauer is by a distance the best passer in the two defences and Suarez' entire game for Inter was built around releasing counter attacks.
 

Moby

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And the elephant in the room :

It is not going to be Dinho running at Gentile the whole game - with Zico and Best in the team who is going to hog the ball the most? Not all of them can be running at their defenders the whole time, someone has to take a backseat and it would likely be Dinho with Zico and Best doing most of that attacking.

Is that really optimal for a player who was clearly the go to man when it came to carrying the ball and taking as much time on it as he wants, which really cannot happen here?

Socrates would work way better in that regard - when you have a dribbler of the calibre of Best/Garrincha it is much better and more balanced to have a player who would happily support the attack, always available for the keeping the passing game up and swift interchanges and that would bring the best out of Garrincha here.

Moreover Garrincha is next to his amigo Pele and as I wrote in the OP Socrates even at his peak is absolutely well versed with playing a deputy role to perfection and hence elevating the overall teamwork and performance of the team rather than a demanding ball carrier who wouldn't be able to be at his best if he's not allowed to be the main man.

It is basically not just x>y here, one clearly works a lot better in the given setup.
 

crappycraperson

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That's a balanced post Crappy so no real arguments there.

On the quoted part though you can't ignore George Best. In my opinion the most significant difference between the sides is that we have a significant wide threat on both sides of the pitch. Facchetti has instructions to go forward so he's going to be leaving just as much space in behind as Roberto Carlos. And as I mentioned in the OP, when possession turns over we have a better ability to launch counter attacks with Beckenbauer's passing - so Best is well set to impact the game and be just as influential as Garrincha.

I don't think the difference in quality between Facchetti and Roberto Carlos is as big as you suggest either, Facchetti's slightly better but both were world class fullbacks.

I would give the edge offensively to Roberto Carlos as well, which is why I think the Ronaldinho/R Carlos flank is the most dangerous in the game. I can't see any way that Gentile is going to deal with that considering the lack of support he has. I think he'll be overlapped on the outside all game by Roberto Carlos while he struggles to get to grips with Ronaldinho's dribbling and movement.
To be honest it is a bit of a mindfeck to figure out how the battle on the wings will play out here. Annah is correct in saying that Fachetti offensively won't be much cop here and his best role here is to keep Best quiet. On the other hand I do agree with Aldo, that if you double up with Goofy + Carlos, leaving Mane alone is as big a risk as it is an opportunity for those two to get better of Gentile.
 

Moby

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Roberto Carlos made his career out of overloading the left flank, he's the gold standard for an attacking wingback role and I wouldn't swap him for any other player. He knows how to burst forward and get back into position. I also think that Desailly provides fantastic cover for the defence.

Also surely what you have just said is the same for Facchetti? You've got him going forward so Best will have the exact same opportunity to counter and I rate our passing from the back at a higher level. Beckenbauer is by a distance the best passer in the two defences and Suarez' entire game for Inter was built around releasing counter attacks.
Well, Facchetti played that exact role throughout his career where he was one man army on the flank, and won more or less everything doing that. I always think Roberto Carlos' defending gets underrated as he was not as bad as people make him out to be but in this case, against Garrincha with the rest of the Brazilian support I would bank a lot more on Facchetti being absolutely in his element and being constantly alert and aware at the back as he was game in game out. His defensive awareness and reactions are at another level and sadly Bobby Carlos doesn't really pose much of a challenge in that area. It is clearly a much easier route for Garrincha than it is for Best, without considering that Garrincha's teammates are setup to bring the best out of him whereas the same cannot be said about Best's.
 

Theon

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It is not going to be Dinho running at Gentile the whole game - with Zico and Best in the team who is going to hog the ball the most?
I think that's complete nonsense mate and Ronaldinho/Rivaldo/Ronaldo had no problems playing with each other.

George Best was the ultimate team player and by a distance, by an absolute distance, Garrincha is the winger on the pitch who most liked to hog the ball. Ronaldo also looked to get on the ball more than Romario did.
 

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I think that's complete nonsense mate and Ronaldinho/Rivaldo/Ronaldo had no problems playing with each other.
But that was hardly the peak Dinho, and was more of a kid happy to support to superstars in the team. Even then Rivaldo doesn't need to be constantly running at players to be at his best as his best attributes lied elsewhere. Are you throwing that Dinho on here? Good for me.

Best was clearly the man responsible for most of the dribbling at United and there wasn't anyone else close to as ball demanding Dinho is to be at his peak role.

I certainly see that as a big issue. Would you have Best and Garrincha in the same team and hope that both have great games? That is not possible, not with one ball present on the pitch and Dinho poses the same problem. Reality is, only one of Dinho and Best can be constantly dribbling with the ball here, which leaves the other out of the game.
 

Theon

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But that was hardly the peak Dinho, and was more of a kid happy to support to superstars in the team. Even then Rivaldo doesn't need to be constantly running at players to be at his best as his best attributes lied elsewhere. Are you throwing that Dinho on here? Good for me.

Best was clearly the man responsible for most of the dribbling at United and there wasn't anyone else close to as ball demanding Dinho is to be at his peak role.

I certainly see that as a big issue. Would you have Best and Garrincha in the same team and hope that both have great games? That is not possible, not with one ball present on the pitch and Dinho poses the same problem. Reality is, only one of Dinho and Best can be constantly dribbling with the ball here, which leaves the other out of the game.
Okay mate, not sure why you're arguing like this but okay.

As I said in the part of the post you omitted when you replied - Best was a consummate team player. Charlton and Law were lovely ball players and those three worked well. Garrincha is by an absolute mile the winger who likes to hog the ball the most, it is not even close so you're barking up the wrong tree with this.

I don't understand the whole argument. For instance just because Garrincha will be dribbling for your team it doesn't mean that Ronaldo and Pele are 'out the game'. Team's don't have a designated dribbler.

Going out with the missus/little one for fathers day now so I won't be back for a while - will try and get on later man.
 

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Okay mate, not sure why you're arguing like this but okay.

As I said in the part of the post you omitted when you replied - Best was a consummate team player. Charlton and Law were lovely ball players and those three worked well. Garrincha is by an absolute mile the winger who likes to hog the ball the most, it is not even close so you're barking up the wrong tree with this.

I don't understand the whole argument. For instance just because Garrincha will be dribbling for your team it doesn't mean that Ronaldo and Pele are 'out the game'. Team's don't have a designated dribbler.
My point is Dinho has to be the main man in the team, he always was, he has to see most of the ball, he takes time on it, he tries stuff again and again, that is what is supposed to be happening here as long as you want him to impact the game and that takes out Best's impact considerably.

It's hardly the same with Pele and Garrincha. Pele and Garrincha are possibly the greatest duo football has seen, Brazil never lost a single game when both of them started so I don't need to convince you how they would work together. Pele has worked in star studded team and made it work to perfection, it is precisely what sets him apart from other GOATs, and that is what he will do to perfection here. There's no such evidence in Dinho and Best working together, less so when they bring very similar skillsets to the table.

It's not something that is being talked about the first time. Remember the all time draft that anto won? TITO had Cruyff, Maradona and Garrincha in his attack and lost, simply because those players WILL get in each other's ways long as you see their playing styles and what made them the greats they were. And it is the same here.
 

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Aldo, Theon's gonna take a backseat here and I'll come in if that's alright.

I take your point about Socrates doing a steady support act job for a main playmaker. But that's also a quality reflection because for all his elegant talent he wasn't on the same level as Zico and it made no sense to be competing with someone so extravagantly capable. And similarly here he's the weakest midfielder/attacker on the park by a fair margin. So while he might be proven in deferring to a main man, there's a clear quality gap between him and a exceptional match-winner in Ronaldinho's mould.

Fundamentally a Roberto Carlos / Ronaldinho flank can expose a defence in every way possible - and that's a complementary partnership that will dovetail delightfully.
 

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Aldo, Theon's gonna take a backseat here and I'll come in if that's alright.

I take your point about Socrates doing a steady support act job for a main playmaker. But that's also a quality reflection because for all his elegant talent he wasn't on the same level as Zico and it made no sense to be competing with someone so extravagantly capable. And similarly here he's the weakest midfielder/attacker on the park by a fair margin. So while he might be proven in deferring to a main man, there's a clear quality gap between him and a exceptional match-winner in Ronaldinho's mould.

Fundamentally a Roberto Carlos / Ronaldinho flank can expose a defence in every way possible - and that's a complementary partnership that will dovetail delightfully.
I think I have replied to all that above, just measuring the difference in quality does not give a fair reflection of the game. Pele also had a greater career than Zico and Ronaldo can do things Romario can merely dream of, but that's not always the most relevant arguments.
 

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Remember the all time draft that anto won? TITO had Cruyff, Maradona and Garrincha in his attack and lost, simply because those players WILL get in each other's ways long as you see their playing styles and what made them the greats they were. And it is the same here.
Those players certainly would. They all need to have the team built around them. But we've got an entirely different set of players with different attributes so the point doesn't stand. Importantly we've got the full width of the park covered: each attacker has distinct roles: each attacker is proven in those roles.
 

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This is probably heresy but of all the GOATs I've watched in old games Garrincha has been massively disappointing. He did little in both the semi and final in 58. I've started watching England Brazil in 62- at the stage of the second dog pitch invasion.

At present then I rate Best as head and shoulders above Garrincha.

To Gio- how deep will Zico play? My concern is that with Suarez as a DLP alongside Desially there could be gaps linking the play. If Zico plays a bit deeper it will limit his goal threat. That said I could be misunderstanding Suarez's role at Inter
 

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Those players certainly would. They all need to have the team built around them. But we've got an entirely different set of players with different attributes so the point doesn't stand. Importantly we've got the full width of the park covered: each attacker has distinct roles: each attacker is proven in those roles.
I don't see much of a difference here in terms of what problems it posed. Maradona was often a selfless player and so was Zico, the problem lies on the sides. Cruyff and Garrincha were also well proven as a wide forward and a winger respectively, but the point is simply that they like Dinho and Best both need ample time on the ball, at least to be at their absolute best. In a game as close this really would make a massive difference, I just cannot see BOTH of them having great games and constantly roasting their opponents like they normally did, less so when you see who they are up against and would surely need to have a good go at their opponents to find an opening.
 

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I don't see much of a difference here in terms of what problems it posed. Maradona was often a selfless player and so was Zico, the problem lies on the sides. Cruyff and Garrincha were also well proven as a wide forward and a winger respectively, but the point is simply that they like Dinho and Best both need ample time on the ball, at least to be at their absolute best. In a game as close this really would make a massive difference, I just cannot see BOTH of them having great games and constantly roasting their opponents like they normally did.
I think it's not an issue. The players you're using to compare are completely irrelevant in this context. Best is far more of a team-player than Garrincha who is clearly the most individualistic on the park. Cruyff played a totally different role and had the entire system set up around his needs and abilities.
 

Theon

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My point is Dinho has to be the main man in the team, he always was, he has to see most of the ball, he takes time on it, he tries stuff again and again
Need to go now Aldo but really quickly.

Sorry but you're describing Garrincha much more than Best or Ronaldinho. Best was a direct, high tempo player, not a ball hogger - Garrincha on the other hand was exactly as you describe. He was the ultimate ball hogger, preferring to try and beat a man twice than play direct and get the ball forward. It's abundantly clear from the footage available and probably why his goal scoring record is not that impressive.

Also as I've already mentioned, Ronaldo as well looked to get on the ball more than Romario and, as your best player, presumably you would want Pele in possession as much as possible.

Any answer?
What? No one is set to man mark Ronaldo.

Beckenbauer, Schwarzenbeck and Desailly will all have a big role to play on Ronaldo depending on where he is at the time.