This whole "throw in youth with the wholesale changes" thing

[Mr. MUJAC]

I agree with the OP, take someone like Macheda for example - always looked great in pre-season playing with the first team, scored a couple of really good goals when he came on as a sub in important first team games and yet most of his appearances came when their were wholesale changes made to the XI and thus like yesterday the result is a disjointed performance from all which lowers the stock of everyone involved

Now the fact Macheda has left and done nothing with his career suggests he was never going to be good enough for us but the point remains the same, to really give youth a chance in an ideal world you want to see them in actual first team games with real consequences riding on them - like how Rashford was introduced (he's the shining example of giving youth a chance going right)

As the undertone of the OP is obviously Chong's appearance yesterday, because it was so underwhelming in an already poor team his stock has gone from exciting talent we're all itching to see to 'he's no where near ready'. Imagine if Ole had brought him on in one of the league games we've had though, we may have seen the player everyone who watches the reserves has been raving about...

There is one massive difference between Rashford and virtually everyone else being mentioned in this thread.

Rashford was brought into a senior eleven and was played regularly during good/bad times. As a consequence he was able to ride through periods when things didn't work and continue his development in a relatively solid side.

Virtually everyone else has had to try and impress in limited cameos or has been part of a team that is full of wholesale changes...this helps no-one.

Every United junior is taught to play the United way...if we give then time then they can become stars in their own right or solid squad members. Just because they don't make it elsewhere after leaving doesn't necessarily mean they couldn't make it here. Often players struggle with route one football or different styles that are totally foreign to them. For every Scholes we need a Lingard...for every Beckham we need a Fletcher...for every Neville we need an O'Shea.

They save us millions in the transfer market and are incredibly loyal.

There are so many players we have bought like Obertan, Diouf, Smith, Miller, Djemba, Kleberson, Tosic, Bellion, Carroll, Kuszczak, Greening, Fellaini, Schneiderlin etc etc that...if we had given a few kids extended runs...could have developed into better versions of this lot.

Josh King could have done a job for us...Ryan Shawcross could have done a job for us...Danny Drinkwater could have done a job for us...Michael Keane, Tom Heaton, Danny Simpson etc

The modern pressures make it very difficult to integrate youth players into first teams and the gap between the youth and first teams is enormous. The reserve league is a complete waste of time and 95% of loans don't work...so the fact that we have a great record is a testament to the club and coaching staff overall.

 

[Stobzilla]

There is one massive difference between Rashford and virtually everyone else being mentioned in this thread.

Rashford was brought into a senior eleven and was played regularly during good/bad times. As a consequence he was able to ride through periods when things didn't work and continue his development in a relatively solid side.

Virtually everyone else has had to try and impress in limited cameos or has been part of a team that is full of wholesale changes...this helps no-one.

Every United junior is taught to play the United way...if we give then time then they can become stars in their own right or solid squad members. Just because they don't make it elsewhere after leaving doesn't necessarily mean they couldn't make it here. Often players struggle with route one football or different styles that are totally foreign to them. For every Scholes we need a Lingard...for every Beckham we need a Fletcher...for every Neville we need an O'Shea.

They save us millions in the transfer market and are incredibly loyal.

There are so many players we have bought like Obertan, Diouf, Smith, Miller, Djemba, Kleberson, Tosic, Bellion, Carroll, Kuszczak, Greening, Fellaini, Schneiderlin etc etc that...if we had given a few kids extended runs...could have developed into better versions of this lot.

Josh King could have done a job for us...Ryan Shawcross could have done a job for us...Danny Drinkwater could have done a job for us...Michael Keane, Tom Heaton, Danny Simpson etc

The modern pressures make it very difficult to integrate youth players into first teams and the gap between the youth and first teams is enormous. The reserve league is a complete waste of time and 95% of loans don't work...so the fact that we have a great record is a testament to the club and coaching staff overall.

Spot on, as per.

 

[M Utd]

There is one massive difference between Rashford and virtually everyone else being mentioned in this thread.

Rashford was brought into a senior eleven and was played regularly during good/bad times. As a consequence he was able to ride through periods when things didn't work and continue his development in a relatively solid side.

Virtually everyone else has had to try and impress in limited cameos or has been part of a team that is full of wholesale changes...this helps no-one.

Every United junior is taught to play the United way...if we give then time then they can become stars in their own right or solid squad members. Just because they don't make it elsewhere after leaving doesn't necessarily mean they couldn't make it here. Often players struggle with route one football or different styles that are totally foreign to them. For every Scholes we need a Lingard...for every Beckham we need a Fletcher...for every Neville we need an O'Shea.

They save us millions in the transfer market and are incredibly loyal.

There are so many players we have bought like Obertan, Diouf, Smith, Miller, Djemba, Kleberson, Tosic, Bellion, Carroll, Kuszczak, Greening, Fellaini, Schneiderlin etc etc that...if we had given a few kids extended runs...could have developed into better versions of this lot.

Josh King could have done a job for us...Ryan Shawcross could have done a job for us...Danny Drinkwater could have done a job for us...Michael Keane, Tom Heaton, Danny Simpson etc

The modern pressures make it very difficult to integrate youth players into first teams and the gap between the youth and first teams is enormous. The reserve league is a complete waste of time and 95% of loans don't work...so the fact that we have a great record is a testament to the club and coaching staff overall.

I'd also add that Rashford getting his chance came through a combination of factors too.
LVG tried but failed to bring in centre forwards.
He effectively had Rooney (my captain always plays) who was in a really challenging period in his career.
Falcao coming back from a career threatening injury and things just didn't click and the Martial. Who if I am correct was due to start the game but got injured in the warm up which gave Rashford his start.
I think Rashford and LVG take some credit for being on the bench and Rashford really took his chance when it came along.

 

[Mr. MUJAC]

I'd also add that Rashford getting his chance came through a combination of factors too.
LVG tried but failed to bring in centre forwards.
He effectively had Rooney (my captain always plays) who was in a really challenging period in his career.
Falcao coming back from a career threatening injury and things just didn't click and the Martial. Who if I am correct was due to start the game but got injured in the warm up which gave Rashford his start.
I think Rashford and LVG take some credit for being on the bench and Rashford really took his chance when it came along.

I agree and that's the history of football.

Very few young players 'force' their way into a senior side through unbelievable performances in the reserves and oust the existing senior player.

In 99% of instances someone is injured, someone fails a fitness test, a manager can't bring another player in, players are rested and so on.

It's always a combination of factors.

 

[worldinmotion66]

Youngsters need to be integrated into a fully functioning first team and not with a bunch of misfits in need of match rhythm. We rotated too many players but it was probably necessary given our busy schedule and upcoming opponents. I think it was more difficult for Chong coming on to make an impression than it would have been had he started against Reading. It's not easy but it would be nice to see them making substitute appearances in the more competitive games alongside our better players.

 

[Cockney Phil]

In principle, I agree with the culture of young players.

Young players need experience and that comes with game time. The best way to achieve it, is to drip feed them into games as subs and then starts in FA Cup type games. But, it’s essential teams remain balanced so they fit and benefit from the experience. Chong was subbed into a mess and was unable to make a mark - other than time, it’s difficult to see what more he gained from that game.

 

[The Irish Connection]

Obviously you have to be realistic and know most young players will not become first team regulars here, but it’s only natural to dream and hope your club can continue with tradition. To say that that is what makes United fans hated is ridiculous.
City’s young players can’t wait to get out. Seeing good qualities in young lads is what it’s all about. If you think there’s something wrong with that I don’t know why you watch soccer.

 

[Oaencha]

I'd also add that Rashford getting his chance came through a combination of factors too.
LVG tried but failed to bring in centre forwards.
He effectively had Rooney (my captain always plays) who was in a really challenging period in his career.
Falcao coming back from a career threatening injury and things just didn't click and the Martial. Who if I am correct was due to start the game but got injured in the warm up which gave Rashford his start.
I think Rashford and LVG take some credit for being on the bench and Rashford really took his chance when it came along.

I think it was Will Keane who got injured in the warm up before the FC Midtyjlland match.

 

[M Utd]

I think it was Will Keane who got injured in the warm up before the FC Midtyjlland match.

Could well have been. I'm sure your memory is better than mine!

 

[Lentwood]

Many people are confused by the 'Class of 92'. These were exceptional players who came into the team and began contributing from the outset. As where Wayne Rooney and Cristiano Ronaldo (OK not Academy graduates but both where in the Utd 1st team at 18). Nowadays you've got players like Lingard, Bailly and Shaw still being talked about a yet to fulfil their potential and I'm sceptical because I wonder at what point do you just accept they are just not as good as the players that have gone before them?

I do agree with the poster who said stick with the Academy lads as squad players though. We would definitely be stronger for having Keane, Drinkwater and King in the squad now even if they are not regular first team standard, they know the club inside-out

 

[SlimDizzle075]

I agree with the OP, take someone like Macheda for example - always looked great in pre-season playing with the first team, scored a couple of really good goals when he came on as a sub in important first team games and yet most of his appearances came when their were wholesale changes made to the XI and thus like yesterday the result is a disjointed performance from all which lowers the stock of everyone involved

Now the fact Macheda has left and done nothing with his career suggests he was never going to be good enough for us but the point remains the same, to really give youth a chance in an ideal world you want to see them in actual first team games with real consequences riding on them - like how Rashford was introduced (he's the shining example of giving youth a chance going right)

As the undertone of the OP is obviously Chong's appearance yesterday, because it was so underwhelming in an already poor team his stock has gone from exciting talent we're all itching to see to 'he's no where near ready'. Imagine if Ole had brought him on in one of the league games we've had though, we may have seen the player everyone who watches the reserves has been raving about...

The attitude of the individual player has to be factored into whether they developed to their potential or not. and to continue to use Macheda as an example. I think technically Macheda was an excellent talent and plenty good enough, but mentally he was a failure to himself. Macheda had a horrible attitude and work ethic. He was VERY arrogant and at one point he was disciplined for making monkey gestures and laughing at Asian fans after scoring a goal. it was either on a pre-season tour or during the "club world cup", not 100% sure which one. These types of things factor into how the player is used and developed when they get to that spot where they are on too good for the U-23's but not ready for the first team.