Tifo IRL: The Real Problem with Manchester United's Midfield

[telstar96]

For me this demonstrates 2 of biggest issues:

1. We need a midfielder, who is both defensively responsible but can also help build play from the back, is press resistant and has a good passing range.
2. The players aren't being coached well enough to improve on playing out the back. A quality coach would identify McTominay's issues of not showing for the ball and try to correct it.

For me, McTominay is not a holding mid. He's box to box. It makes no sense that he's being asked to be our sole creator from deep. Then we have Fred, who also can't play as a holding mid, as he lacks the composure and the passing range to get us up the pitch.

Effectively we have two box to box midfielders playing in a pivot and that lack of balance is painfully obvious whenever we play.

 

[Oranges038]

xG is a real thing, I rate it and it has a clear use, the rest is just people trying to categorise everything.

Double pivot doesn't even make sense when you think of what a pivot is, someone just thought it sounded good and its stuck.
Cover shadow just makes it sound like we need a Nazgul in DM

Can only work well in a 9 though. Ole would never play a 9 man midfield.

 

[esmufc07]

Literally answered as soon as the term is used. Don't be a Luddite.

This tickled me

 

[EtH]

You don't think teams, such as City and Liverpool, work on their midfielders moving out the space that is being successfully covered by the opposition forwards and midfielders, so they are free to receive the ball and move it on? The term, which for some reason you have taken massive umbrage with, is kind of irrelevant, no? You are shouting at the clouds here.

Yeah I’m sure they discuss space and movement in terms far more refined than cover shadow but don’t mind me I’m just shouting at clouds.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Can only work well in a 9 though. Ole would never play a 9 man midfield.

We played RBL away with a back 7, we were close

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

McTominay doing his best Cleverley impression. It really does feel like we're playing a man down in most games, whether that's a lack of intensity or cowardly performances.

Oh blimey, don't remind me.

Cleverley screaming for the ball to feet, only to pop it back to the passer, spin in behind his marker, and then removing himself as an option. How he was a pro-footballer was beyond me.

 

[Coops73]

If finding internet expert terms like “cover shadow” ridiculous makes me a Luddite then so be it.

McTominay doesn’t know how to show for the ball. We know this. It isn’t rocket science.

I’m with you, all these hipster terms like trequartista, ramdeuter, regista is just utter bollocks used by some on here who talk like they’ve done their UEFA coaching badges when in reality they’ve just heard it on football manger…just before their mums call them down for their tea.

 

[EyeToldYou]

I’m with you, all these hipster terms like trequartista, ramdeuter, regista is just utter bollocks used by some on here who talk like they’ve done their UEFA coaching badges when in reality they’ve just heard it on football manger…just before their mums call them down for their tea.

What an absolute load of nonsense!

First off, trequartista isn't a 'hipster term' as you put it, it's a position that requir....

...be right back..

 

[Hoof the ball]

McTominay and Fred both hide in the cover shadow. This isn't some McTom thing only. The following example is atypical of both of them. Not an isolated instance by any stretch of the imagination, but rather something that can we seen in just about every game involving these two.

Fred vs. Southampton:

Spoiler: Fred Vs. Southampton

 

[Hoof the ball]

I’m with you, all these hipster terms like trequartista, ramdeuter, regista is just utter bollocks used by some on here who talk like they’ve done their UEFA coaching badges when in reality they’ve just heard it on football manger…just before their mums call them down for their tea.

Trequarista isn't a hipster term. It's been used for decades. Literally it's translated "three quarters". Just because you stumbled upon it during an FM save.

 

[FriedClams]

After watching this video and quite enjoying it (even though I don’t necessarily agree with all of it) I’m surprised at the animosity towards the content creator. He’s gone out of his way to make that video, made it look very professional, demonstrates knowledge of the game and it’s hard to argue with some of the conclusions. Maybe there are people who prefer outfield players wear 1-11 and don’t like all the more modern terminology, but I can’t see the merit in having a go at someone for putting effort into something they are quite passionate about.

 

[Coops73]

Trequarista isn't a hipster term. It's been used for decades. Literally it's translated "three quarters". Just because you stumbled upon it during an FM save.

“Hoof! Teas ready!”

 

[#07]

McTominay and Fred both hide in the cover shadow. This isn't some McTom thing only. The following example is atypical of both of them. Not an isolated instance by any stretch of the imagination, but rather something that can we seen in just about every game involving these two.

Fred vs. Southampton:

Spoiler: Fred Vs. Southampton

This is true.

The reality is neither Fred or McTominay are good enough if we are dreaming of competing for titles. Fred does a lot of busy work, and in certain games he's great to have.

However, we've seen both Fred and McTominay hide from the ball and use it poorly when they have it and need to advance it. Its clear that, in an ideal scenario, neither would be starting many games for us.

We've gone from Paul Ince and Roy Keane to Fred and McTominay. That speaks volumes. I like both Fred and McTominay, they seem nice lads. But they can't do what we need them to. Its clear as the nose on your face.

Michael Carrick retired in 2018. Four seasons and still no replacement.

 

[Hoof the ball]

“Hoof! Teas ready!”

"Football's a simple game"
"What's this low-block nonsense? They just need to do more"

Spoiler

 

[Ali Dia]

Statistically and the eye test say Fred, more or less playing alone in there has been one of the better PL midfielders over the last 18 months and also a major reason Bruno has thrived to the extent he has. His ball winning and distribution often sets up promising attacking situations and he’s a solid tempo setting player too who’ll play risky progressive passes. Add in his work rate… he’d be a starter at other big PL clubs whereas McT Matic and Pogba would not because they aren’t solid enough all rounders.

We’ve gone from Ince and Keane to Fred? There are no box to box central midfielders as good as Keane in any team in the PL and hasn’t been since. Liverpool maxed out a fairly ordinary set of players and made them keep it relatively simple and direct. That’s really what’s been needed. Pogba is probably the most outrageously talented player in our squad but he’s the most inconsistent and flashy player in a role that doesn’t really require it most of the time. The defensive side, consistently moving the ball around fast and winning the ball back are just as, if not more important than goals or assists or beautiful floated passes in that position. Put someone else hardworking but also great on the ball in beside Fred and let him press higher up. Our forwards will be much happier I can assure you.

 

[FatTails]

We just need to have more desire and passion, want it more, get stuck in, and win more 50/50s.

 

[iHicksy]

The cover shadow. Aka Backup-Batman.

 

[adexkola]

With that level of insight it's a wonder why he's peddling it on YouTube rather than challenging Guardiola and Klopp.

I will never understand comments like this.

There's literally no point to anyone discussing United football intricacies then, if they aren't managing United.

 

[adexkola]

McTominay and Fred both hide in the cover shadow. This isn't some McTom thing only. The following example is atypical of both of them. Not an isolated instance by any stretch of the imagination, but rather something that can we seen in just about every game involving these two.

Fred vs. Southampton:

Spoiler: Fred Vs. Southampton

Seeing this and thinking of how you see the likes of Rodri, Jorginho, Fabinho, come in and make themselves available for the pass, even under pressure...

 

[#07]

Statistically and the eye test say Fred, more or less playing alone in there has been one of the better PL midfielders over the last 18 months and also a major reason Bruno has thrived to the extent he has. His ball winning and distribution often sets up promising attacking situations and he’s a solid tempo setting player too who’ll play risky progressive passes. Add in his work rate… he’d be a starter at other big PL clubs whereas McT Matic and Pogba would not because they aren’t solid enough all rounders.

We’ve gone from Ince and Keane to Fred? There are no box to box central midfielders as good as Keane in any team in the PL and hasn’t been since. Liverpool maxed out a fairly ordinary set of players and made them keep it relatively simple and direct. That’s really what’s been needed. Pogba is probably the most outrageously talented player in our squad but he’s the most inconsistent and flashy player in a role that doesn’t really require it most of the time. The defensive side, consistently moving the ball around fast and winning the ball back are just as, if not more important than goals or assists or beautiful floated passes in that position. Put someone else hardworking but also great on the ball in beside Fred and let him press higher up. Our forwards will be much happier I can assure you.

I'm not saying we need a new Ince and Keane, I'm saying having watched Ince and Keane nobody can convince me Fred and McTominay are good enough.

There are 'good enough' options out there who are levels below Ince and Keane. We just don't have them, for all our spending. There are midfielders up and down the Premier League who can show for the ball and play forward better than either Fred and McTominay.

Liverpool is a poor comparison for two reasons:

1. The Liverpool system doesn't put the emphasis on the centre of the park like our double pivot system does. They advance the ball via Alexander-Arnold and Robertson and the midfield is mostly there to cover.
2. Neither of Fred or McTominay is as good as as Fabinho, Henderson, Thiago or Keita

Liverpool have substitute midfielders who would start for us. I find that embarrassing to be honest.

 

[AlexUTD]

So Shoehorn FC basicly.

 

[Stacks]

McTom is very lethal in the final third. I think everyone would agree he's better offensively than defensively.

I said he will retire as a League one striker in his 30s and everyone thought it was a hot take

 

[Stacks]

I'm not saying we need a new Ince and Keane, I'm saying having watched Ince and Keane nobody can convince me Fred and McTominay are good enough.

There are 'good enough' options out there who are levels below Ince and Keane. We just don't have them, for all our spending. There are midfielders up and down the Premier League who can show for the ball and play forward better than either Fred and McTominay.

Liverpool is a poor comparison for two reasons:

1. The Liverpool system doesn't put the emphasis on the centre of the park like our double pivot system does. They advance the ball via Alexander-Arnold and Robertson and the midfield is mostly there to cover.
2. Neither of Fred or McTominay is as good as as Fabinho, Henderson, Thiago or Keita

Liverpool have substitute midfielders who would start for us. I find that embarrassing to be honest.

Fred starts for Brazil and recently was stated as their best midfielder by Dani Alvez......

 

[Hoof the ball]

Seeing this and thinking of how you see the likes of Rodri, Jorginho, Fabinho, come in and make themselves available for the pass, even under pressure...

It's a combination of two things.

1. Those players above are smart with their positioning. They see a pass or two ahead and anticipate accordingly to put themselves into a pocket where the ball invariably will end up.

2. Excellent coaching defines individual movements in various phases of the field in order to help these DM's accomplish the task of finding space and playing out of pressure.

The former can compensate somewhat for the latter not being present in that they have innate quality, and the latter can compensate for the former in that it systematises their movements and negates any lack of quality instinct. But to have both is optimal. That's why Jorginho is so good for Tuchel. Jorginho is great at finding space, and Tuchel is great at helping Jorginho find space tactically.

 

[#07]

Fred starts for Brazil and recently was stated as their best midfielder by Dani Alvez......

First, the role we need Fred to play is different than the one he plays for Brazil.

Second, the standard of competition in South America is nowhere near what it should be to form an accurate view of Fred's talents. I watched basically every game of the Copa America, in which Fred played a major part. While you play what is in front of you, I don't feel you can take Fred doing good stuff for Brazil as some kind of benchmark. Lets see if he can repeat those kinds of performances in the World Cup. He certainly didn't in the Copa America final.

Fred will never be able to show for the ball in front of our defence and distribute it in a consistent fashion. No amount of wishful thinking is going to make Fred into Fernando Redondo redux.

 

[adexkola]

It's a combination of two things.

1. Those players above are smart with their positioning. They see a pass or two ahead and anticipate accordingly to put themselves into a pocket where the ball invariably will end up.

2. Excellent coaching defines individual movements in various phases of the field in order to help these DM's accomplish the task of finding space and playing out of pressure.

The former can compensate somewhat for the latter not being present in that they have innate quality, and the latter can compensate for the former in that it systematises their movements and negates any lack of quality instinct. But to have both is optimal. That's why Jorginho is so good for Tuchel. Jorginho is great at finding space, and Tuchel is great at helping Jorginho find space tactically.

Oh yeah for sure. Even with Fred and McTominay's limitation, if Pep and Ole swapped for 6 months then at the end of the period I'm sure our ability to buildup through the midfield (right now, Shaw is our only reliable outlet) would improve.

Which begs the question, is Ole not seeing this? Or is he unable to tell Fred/McT to make themselves available for the pass and not hide? Or does he have an aversion to this? It's very confusing.

 

[Ali Dia]

Fred starts for Brazil and recently was stated as their best midfielder by Dani Alvez......

He’s our best midfielder too. The problem isn’t and hasn’t been Fred as much as some on here will argue. What do they know, they’ve been arguing that McT is clearly an equal or better player all this time so I don’t rate their opinion on what a modern midfielder should be doing at this stage.

The main problem is that someone as limited as McT plays the midfield role more genuinely and to 2 of our managers liking than Pogba (90 million, he should have been our new Keane or Ince but hasn’t done it) and Matic who was bought in his prime. We don’t need specialists or assists. We need mobile all rounders who can get up and down and cover for our full backs. Dictate the play. Win the ball back asap as high up as possible to turn over to and cover for our non pressing forwards. It’s not rocket science.

 

[Stacks]

First, the role we need Fred to play is different than the one he plays for Brazil.

Second, the standard of competition in South America is nowhere near what it should be to form an accurate view of Fred's talents. I watched basically every game of the Copa America, in which Fred played a major part. While you play what is in front of you, I don't feel you can take Fred doing good stuff for Brazil as some kind of benchmark. Lets see if he can repeat those kinds of performances in the World Cup. He certainly didn't in the Copa America final.

Fred will never be able to show for the ball in front of our defence and distribute it in a consistent fashion. No amount of wishful thinking is going to make Fred into Fernando Redondo redux.

true

 

[Stacks]

He’s our best midfielder too. The problem isn’t and hasn’t been Fred as much as some on here will argue. What do they know, they’ve been arguing that McT is clearly an equal or better player all this time so I don’t rate their opinion on what a modern midfielder should be doing at this stage.

The main problem is that someone as limited as McT plays the midfield role more genuinely and to 2 of our managers liking than Pogba (90 million, he should have been our new Keane or Ince but hasn’t done it) and Matic who was bought in his prime. We don’t need specialists or assists. We need mobile all rounders who can get up and down and cover for our full backs. Dictate the play. Win the ball back asap as high up as possible to turn over to and cover for our non pressing forwards. It’s not rocket science.

He has never had a season where he has outperformed Pogba or Bruno

 

[Ali Dia]

He has never had a season where he has outperformed Pogba or Bruno

You’re counting Bruno as a central midfielder?

Manager got to second with Fred and the not so good McT. Everyone’s tried to turn that into put a better player beside Pogba and we are golden. Not a chance. He’ll get found out as he always does in a two. That’s why the manager, depressingly has to keep going back to McT. Is it because he’s a better player than Pogba? No. It’s because even though he’s limited he’s more suitable and gives the team more balance. So by the same token for me that makes Fred our best midfielder. A better player than McT, someone more reliable than Pogba, with Fred and we are set.

 

[TMDaines]

I’m with you, all these hipster terms like trequartista, ramdeuter, regista is just utter bollocks used by some on here who talk like they’ve done their UEFA coaching badges when in reality they’ve just heard it on football manger…just before their mums call them down for their tea.

Those damn foreigners having their own terminology.

 

[Coops73]

Those damn foreigners having their own terminology.

Boring. That’s not what I’m saying at all.

 

[Stacks]

You’re counting Bruno as a central midfielder?

Manager got to second with Fred and the not so good McT. Everyone’s tried to turn that into put a better player beside Pogba and we are golden. Not a chance. He’ll get found out as he always does in a two. That’s why the manager, depressingly has to keep going back to McT. Is it because he’s a better player than Pogba? No. It’s because even though he’s limited he’s more suitable and gives the team more balance. So by the same token for me that makes Fred our best midfielder. A better player than McT, someone more reliable than Pogba, with Fred and we are set.

I hate the fact he plays as a striker. Guess its wishful thinking. otherwise I agree with your assessment and this proves we needed to buy better midfielders. Fred should never be the best midfielder for anyone

 

[Plant0x84]

EVERYONE KNOWS ABOUT THE PROBLEM IN MIDFIELD. Jesus.

Bit harsh to blame our lord and saviour, he gets less time on the pitch than Donny!

 

[adexkola]

EVERYONE KNOWS ABOUT THE PROBLEM IN MIDFIELD. Jesus.

Everyone knows about it but there is a qualitative difference between "our midfield can't do shit" and "here is a detailed opinion of why our midfield is bad at supporting our attack".

 

[Flytan]

I mean I agree McTominay poses a lot of problems since he's an average player, but Fred goes games where he can't make 3 yard passes to another player too.

 

[Vidyoyo]

I mean I agree McTominay poses a lot of problems since he's an average player, but Fred goes games where he can't make 3 yard passes to another player too.

Sometimes seems that way I agree but the stats say he had the best pass success rate last year. Just sharing as I found it interesting...

Spoiler

 

[TMDaines]

Everyone knows about it but there is a qualitative difference between "our midfield can't do shit" and "here is a detailed opinion of why our midfield is bad at supporting our attack".

Exactly. The forum would be so much better if we didn’t have to sift through the snide one line posts that add absolutely nothing.

 

[MadDogg]

McTominay and Fred both hide in the cover shadow. This isn't some McTom thing only. The following example is atypical of both of them. Not an isolated instance by any stretch of the imagination, but rather something that can we seen in just about every game involving these two.

Fred vs. Southampton:

Spoiler: Fred Vs. Southampton

Fred's fine. Not amazing at getting into space or anything, but he's absolutely miles better than McTominay. There is a reason that last season McTominay was in the 59th percentile of midfielders in the big five leagues for touches of the ball, while Fred was in the 83rd percentile. How a midfielder for Manchester United can be as low as McTominay simply blows my mind. He is constantly, constantly making himself difficult, if not outright impossible, to pass to.

 

[OnlyTwoDaSilvas]

McTominay doing his best Cleverley impression. It really does feel like we're playing a man down in most games, whether that's a lack of intensity or cowardly performances.

Bingo. Cleverley did that all the time. I never knew there was a term for it, other than hiding, and I'd noticed McT doing it a lot recently too. It's cowardly.