Titoism

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Do we have enough interest for a discussion of Tito?

I've been revisiting my interest in Yugoslavia of late and that includes digging into Titoism. It was a very interesting system which seemed to offer a much improved way of life for the Yugoslavs over citizens of purer communist countries. However there were clearly flaws; namely having an iron-fisted dictator holding everything together. I'm also wondering how much the state depended on aid from the USA and the USSR to bolster it's own economy.

Anyway, if you fancy chiming in I'd be interested to read more. Ideally more on the negative aspects of life under Tito.
 

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Do we have enough interest for a discussion of Tito?

I've been revisiting my interest in Yugoslavia of late and that includes digging into Titoism. It was a very interesting system which seemed to offer a much improved way of life for the Yugoslavs over citizens of purer communist countries. However there were clearly flaws; namely having an iron-fisted dictator holding everything together. I'm also wondering how much the state depended on aid from the USA and the USSR to bolster it's own economy.

Anyway, if you fancy chiming in I'd be interested to read more. Ideally more on the negative aspects of life under Tito.
You might be interested in this...
https://ojs.inz.si/pnz/article/view/305/568

Also, the ESPN 30 for 30 "Once Brothers" about Vlade Divac and Drazen Petrovic is a good watch for a look at life after Tito and how it unraveled in Yugoslavia. It's obviously slanted Divac's way since Petrovic is long dead, but it does give a great glimpse into the far reaching effects of the breakup of the country in the 90's.
 

calodo2003

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Very interesting topic. I’ve always been fascinated about the differences in former Soviet Bloc countries behind the Iron Curtain. The disparity between them can be rather substantial & the comparison of their leaders is equally as engrossing, Albania under Hoxha especially.

This is tangentially associative (used to be called ‘The Bohemian Blog’) - https://www.exutopia.com

This cat is an urban explorer who concentrates often in former Soviet Bloc countries & areas. He does the obligatory travels to Pripyat / Chernobyl, but his travails in Eastern Europe & Cuba are very engaging, especially to places like the secret underground Soviet naval base in Balaklava.
 

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As far as I can tell Tito did a good job of not favouring one ethnic group over another despite the tensions between them. Obviously once he died the power vacuum led to the breakup as competing entities vyed for full control. The way I read it, Milosevic kind of reluctantly fell into leadership. Credit to him in seeing the opportunity quickly though.

There is a great series of vids on YT that details Titoism and how it was put into practice. The means of production not being overtly centralized is very interesting.
 

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[video]
Fairly basic, but informative video, more biographical however.
 

berbatrick

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one of the criticisms i have read of yugoslavia from pro-soviet types is that they were in deep debt and dependent on remittances from foreign workers, it collapsed much quicker than the soviet economy which had continuous growth with little external support for 40 years either side of WW2 (early 30s - late 70s).

i don't know how true the stats they use are.
 
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My Dad, who went from embracing Maoism in his youth to Trumpism in recent years, still maintains Tito was one of the greatest figures of the 20th century.
 

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A unique figure who built a sandcastle. Yugoslav citizens had a relative good life, especially compared to what they have now, but there were many injustices. To keep the ethnic and religious differences balanced, he had a very horizontal rule: for every crime that a Serb (or Croatian etc.) would commit, a Croatian or a Bosnian would also get arrested. However, he failed to truly address the historic causes of disputes between them, but perhaps it is unfair to blame someone because he couldn't solve issues of centuries.
 

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He wasn't part of the Warsaw Pact though he was a socialist. I would say he was a benevolent dictator if you ever have a dictator who is benevolent.
 

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A unique figure who built a sandcastle. Yugoslav citizens had a relative good life, especially compared to what they have now, but there were many injustices. To keep the ethnic and religious differences balanced, he had a very horizontal rule: for every crime that a Serb (or Croatian etc.) would commit, a Croatian or a Bosnian would also get arrested. However, he failed to truly address the historic causes of disputes between them, but perhaps it is unfair to blame someone because he couldn't solve issues of centuries.

That's interesting. Got any more info about that?

As for the ethnic tensions, I'm sure he was well aware that they couldn't be solved so he tried building a Yugoslav identity but that was never strong enough to usurp original identity. I suppose the Yugoslav system allowed those nationalisms to remain and flourish by recognising the autonomy of each republic.
 

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A bit off-topic but imagine the national team Yugoslavia would have if it didn't break up. Wouldn't be surprised if they'd be regular contenders for winning the Euro.

All the best Croatian, Serbian and Bosnian players in 1 team.
 

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A bit off-topic but imagine the national team Yugoslavia would have if it didn't break up. Wouldn't be surprised if they'd be regular contenders for winning the Euro.

All the best Croatian, Serbian and Bosnian players in 1 team.
I think their was always tension because Red Star got state support over all the other regional teams. I think their was a big incident at a footy match that helped kick off the Croatian separation.
 

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A bit off-topic but imagine the national team Yugoslavia would have if it didn't break up. Wouldn't be surprised if they'd be regular contenders for winning the Euro.

All the best Croatian, Serbian and Bosnian players in 1 team.
Only on a paper.
 

led_scholes

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That's interesting. Got any more info about that?

As for the ethnic tensions, I'm sure he was well aware that they couldn't be solved so he tried building a Yugoslav identity but that was never strong enough to usurp original identity. I suppose the Yugoslav system allowed those nationalisms to remain and flourish by recognising the autonomy of each republic.
It was a "rule" that applied to everything, from work promotions to petty crimes, mostly used in regions where ethnic differences were more prominent (Bosnia, North Macedonia).

I agree about the identity part, and perhaps he felt that by creating a slavic, socialist, atheist identity would be enough to overcome the national differences, which apart from the albanian case, was basically religious rooted. I dont think the solution would be to not let the autonomy of each republic exist, otherwise he would be seen as a continuation of the previous model in the kingdom of Yugoslavia, which was completely serbian-centralized. So, I guess he didnt have much choice there and the autonomous republic suited both the soviet model of republics, and his economic notion of self-management.
 

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Anyway, if you fancy chiming in I'd be interested to read more. Ideally more on the negative aspects of life under Tito.
He got rid of some capable people like Milovan Djilas, who foresaw potential problems already during WWII.
He became stubborn and a dictator.
He established a partizan fetish in Yugoslavia, in culture and history.
His appeasement politics meant only that noone challenged him as a ruler.
He got away with a lot just because of the Cold War. In that sense he benefited a lot from that.
No sense for economics meant that the industry suffered in a similar way like other industries in communist countries. Party members got to lead factories instead of people with better capabilities. Also kind of neglected the effect of mass production and specialization in economy. Factories and plants were planned on geographical maps and not based on economical needs and profits.
The overall effects are devastating - similar really to other regimes like in Romania or Bulgaria. Slovenia did well - and to some extent Croatia. But, they have in no way and shape any say in European politics which a country like Yugoslavia might have had.
 

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It was a "rule" that applied to everything, from work promotions to petty crimes, mostly used in regions where ethnic differences were more prominent (Bosnia, North Macedonia).

I agree about the identity part, and perhaps he felt that by creating a slavic, socialist, atheist identity would be enough to overcome the national differences, which apart from the albanian case, was basically religious rooted. I dont think the solution would be to not let the autonomy of each republic exist, otherwise he would be seen as a continuation of the previous model in the kingdom of Yugoslavia, which was completely serbian-centralized. So, I guess he didnt have much choice there and the autonomous republic suited both the soviet model of republics, and his economic notion of self-management.

It's a shame that they couldn't all get past their religious identities in favour of a Slavic-based identity.

Do you know if his economic policies were working? He gave a lot of control to local entities that were all elected but there did seem to be a lot of layers of management right up to the top.
 

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My Dad, who went from embracing Maoism in his youth to Trumpism in recent years, still maintains Tito was one of the greatest figures of the 20th century.
Now that's a ringing endorsement :lol:
 

led_scholes

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It's a shame that they couldn't all get past their religious identities in favour of a Slavic-based identity.

Do you know if his economic policies were working? He gave a lot of control to local entities that were all elected but there did seem to be a lot of layers of management right up to the top.
Unfortunately, I havent looked in-depth in the economic policies, even though i find it intriguing because it was different than the typical soviet inspired. I know Yugoslavia had a debt-problem, but from my understanding that includes all the eastern bloc countries, the West tried to overplay the inefficiencies.

Another intriguing aspect is his badassness to go against Stalin, which eventually did more harm to Hoxha than him, since Hoxha had to become USSR's puppet to protect from Yugoslavia at the begining, then Mao's dog (when Tito reconciled with the USSR in early 60s), and then completely alone, isolating, thus starving, Albania in the process.
 

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He got rid of some capable people like Milovan Djilas, who foresaw potential problems already during WWII.
He became stubborn and a dictator.
He established a partizan fetish in Yugoslavia, in culture and history.
His appeasement politics meant only that noone challenged him as a ruler.
He got away with a lot just because of the Cold War. In that sense he benefited a lot from that.
No sense for economics meant that the industry suffered in a similar way like other industries in communist countries. Party members got to lead factories instead of people with better capabilities. Also kind of neglected the effect of mass production and specialization in economy. Factories and plants were planned on geographical maps and not based on economical needs and profits.
The overall effects are devastating - similar really to other regimes like in Romania or Bulgaria. Slovenia did well - and to some extent Croatia. But, they have in no way and shape any say in European politics which a country like Yugoslavia might have had.
I am not sure we can entirery blame him for the current state of these countries. Serbia was fighting against everyone for the whole decade, Bosnia was completely ruined by both Serbs and Croats, and Croatia was also engaged in war for many years. If we add nationalism and corruption in the mix, we just get third world countries. On the other hand, Slovenia had a war for 1 day and smartly dissasociated with the yugoslav mess.
 

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I am not sure we can entirery blame him for the current state of these countries. Serbia was fighting against everyone for the whole decade, Bosnia was completely ruined by both Serbs and Croats, and Croatia was also engaged in war for many years. If we add nationalism and corruption in the mix, we just get third world countries. On the other hand, Slovenia had a war for 1 day and smartly dissasociated with the yugoslav mess.
He created that state that made these developments possible. Nationalism might have been better dealt with If you allow more than one party. But he basically did not take care of that at all. At the end he was an egomaniac, just look at the actor who was chosen to play him.
Tito had a lot of Boris Johnson in him.
 

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He created that state that made these developments possible. Nationalism might have been better dealt with If you allow more than one party. But he basically did not take care of that at all. At the end he was an egomaniac, just look at the actor who was chosen to play him.
Tito had a lot of Boris Johnson in him.

Come on now. Tito was far more capable than that chancer.
 

led_scholes

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He created that state that made these developments possible. Nationalism might have been better dealt with If you allow more than one party. But he basically did not take care of that at all. At the end he was an egomaniac, just look at the actor who was chosen to play him.
Tito had a lot of Boris Johnson in him.
He didn't create the state. Before him, Yugoslavia was a serbian-led kingdom and tensions between the ethnicities were high. During WW2, nationalists were preoccupied with killing people of other religion than fighting against nazis, with whom some happily collaborated (especially in Croatia). However, he failed to address the problems, but i m not sure democracy would have resolved them too. Perhaps war could have been avoided indeed.
 

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He didn't create the state. Before him, Yugoslavia was a serbian-led kingdom and tensions between the ethnicities were high. During WW2, nationalists were preoccupied with killing people of other religion than fighting against nazis, with whom some happily collaborated (especially in Croatia). However, he failed to address the problems, but i m not sure democracy would have resolved them too. Perhaps war could have been avoided indeed.
He did it in that sense, that he changed the complexity, the power distribution and the way it was governed. Also, there were many changes on the societal level.

I also do not think that you can just contribute it to ethnic tensions during WW2 - because they were there, but they were not everywhere. The resistance story is basically that the cetniks were the prime opponents and the ustasa the prime collaborators of the Nazis. Later on, Tito gained support from the British and Russian side (but the support from UK was probably more effective) which raised the profile of the partisans, that were not much of a threat at the beginning of the war.

In my opinion an earlier introduction of democracy would have definitely helped, because the sudden "outbreak" of democracy meant the people were not prepared for that, were pretty gullible and basically voted for dubious leaders who promised them the honey and rich flowing milk of the heavens. And many fell for it.

One other catalycism to that was the economic decline during the 70ies and 80ies. People were forced to use food or fuel stamps (not regularly, but on more than one ocassion). There was a crazy inflation at the end of the 80ies, so people were crying for change and were fed-up with the decline.

The economic problems were partly created by a very bureaucratic approach when it comes to industrialization. Plants and factories were planned on a drawing board. I guess there were shoe and textile factories in every state - too many, most of them too small. There were too many plants for - as an example - TVs, which meant that all of them were too small to compete effectively. When an economic problem was identified in an area they put a plant or a factory there (for whatever), while not looking at the logistics side of it (are there enough suppliers neraby; is there a viable supply chaing) and also not really looking at any benefits vs. risks assessment.

Of course, corruption and incompetence was a problem, but Tito was a problem himself, because he simply was not interested to look at these side of things. Also I guess, there was a concept to fight the ethnic tensions, but I doubt whether the concept was every evaluated and redesigned. So, Tito was too static in his thinking to run a country effectively - which probably applies to every potential leader out there and which is probably one of the main benefits of having new governments from time to time.