No, I just think that this cult of pure irrational hatred that has built up against Cleverly is unjustified and unfair. He's become a scapegoat as a symbol of a wider problem and I don't think people are judging it rationally.
Tom Cleverley | 2012-14 Performances
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Me too. I remember that interview with Shreeves after the 2011 champions league final. Fergie was saying things will change.
Then he signed Young. Barcelona and the rest of Europe must have shat themselves.
Also it is laughable to claim Cleverley would displace McCarthy at Everton. McCarthy was better than him when they were both at Wigan.
I don't think I could have been more obvious in saying 'can finish at a decent enough level'. I mean, if that doesn't paint a vivid enough picture of 'there is something there but it can improve I think' then here it is again, in bold and caps for you. "CAN FINISH AT A DECENT ENOUGH LEVEL"Now you're saying Cleverley's a good finisher - Tom - 3 goals in 54 PL matches - Cleverley?He cannot finish to save his life. If scoring a decent goal every 25 games makes a player a good finisher then Darron Gibson is Pippo Inzaghi.
I think it needs to be dubbed 'Fellaini syndrome'.
I don't see much hatred TBH. Most on here seem to see him as a squad player at best, which is a perfectly fine opinion. There's definitely a wider problem though, I think that in the right system Cleverly can show promise again.
Read my above comment. Squad player fine.
Calling him class and stuff, I don't agree with. He has never been class for us. Decent at best.
So Manchester United should be settling for "decent enough"? In a 25 year old player who's approaching his prime? He is "decent enough" - i.e. not entirely terrible in most areas. He is excellent in none. We should be aiming far higher in squad player. Where does he fit in Barca, Bayern or Real's squad? Does he get 30+ games a season? Those are the clubs we are equal to prestige and money wise, and we should be at their level, not trying our best to make do with "decent enough" like Cleverley.
Opining that he isn't a top notch midfielder is fair enough criticism. What I find amusing is that "TC23" clearly thinks he is a better player than he is.
As I said, I said he 'looked'... sigh, never mind. You've ignored it the last 3 times I posted it and just continued to argue on what you thought I was trying to say. It's like arguing with my girlfriend! Except that the chances of sex are higher
Unfortunately in the real world it isn't as black and white as 'should United settle for decent enough'. The club has won plenty of silverware while getting 10% extra out of it's 'is he good enough' players. Decent enough can turn into 'better than expected' at any moment throughout a season. All that is needed is a little bit of patience and a level head to say 'ok there is something there at least'. If you can't see any of the good things then there is no point forming an opinion and discussing it. You mays well be saying 'yep, nope' to 'is he good enough' and that is that. It will be a lot easier to move on from these kinds of posts and have discussions elsewhere.
Every club in the world bar a select few right at the top can be saying the exact same thing 'we should be aiming far higher in a squad player' but as it's been said. It's 2014 and Manchester United doesn't go around spending 100m a season on squad players. So prepare to be disappointed if you keep believing that we can upgrade out 'squad players' for peanuts. If you want the best of the best in all 25 squad places then this isn't the club to be supporting.
As I said, I said he 'looked'... sigh, never mind. You've ignored it the last 3 times I posted it and just continued to argue on what you thought I was trying to say. It's like arguing with my girlfriend! Except that the chances of sex are higher
. I bet she doesn't have an agenda either.You do understand I want Cleverley to stay, right?
He doesn't have to be 'world class' to be quality. While his performances are fine and people are saying he isn't 'world class' it doesn't mean he is a shite footballer and should disappear.
That whole midfield gets a 'we must re-evaluate' due to the sharp decline of Carrick, the Moyes seemingly only preferring combinations involving a shite Carrick. If we remove Michael from that midfield and try and strike up some actual functioning combinations you'll probably de-construct Tom Cleverley's game and see that there is a player with a useful amount of versatility and ability.
A system with some mobility in that midfield and he will become an important ingredient. Lets not put all our eggs in one basket and say 'he'll become world class' because he doesn't need to do that to get recognition.
We all have agendas because we don't think Cleverley is class apparently.
Thank you for educating me on how to judge players and post, you have enlightened me. Tom Cleverley is not good enough and will never be good enough, he does not have the talent to be a squad player anywhere near the calibre of our squad players of old, like JOS or Park, and should train his arse to better warm the bench for a mascot's salary if he wants to continue "playing" for Manchester United. I suppose we'll see who is right in a few years.
Yes, I was simply re-affiriming that not ever player needs to be deemed 'world class' to be 'decent enough' or 'effective'.
Want's some discussion on the matter, replies like a twat. Fair enough.
Cleverley definitely isn't first team quality. I also struggle to see what his best position is. Not tough enough or pass well enough to play DM, not incisive enough to play AM, not visionary enough to play No.10, not fast enough to play wide.
I think he absolutely IS incisive enough to play AM in a genuine midfield 3 (as opposed to in a 4-2-3-1), but only in the right system. I can't face posting that gif again but it's evidence that he's perfectly capable of exactly that....
No, it's not definitive. But it is evidence that he is capable of being incisive - I really can't see how you can disagree with that!
I feel for him. Coming through as a midfielder at the time he did, he was set up to be a scapegoat like he has been. That's not defending his performances, he isn't the first not great footballer but it won't stop fans kicking him while he is down because we need world class in midfield. For some reason he is being blamed for the clubs inability to invest in midfield.
I think he is better than what a lot think. That doesn't mean I see a bright future for him at the club but in regards to a squad, I can see room for a HG player there. If he and the club can find a move for him, that will probably be best for his career and England ambitions but the way our fans have treated him has clearly dented his confidence and that should never be the case. We should be behind him.
I think he is better than what a lot think. That doesn't mean I see a bright future for him at the club but in regards to a squad, I can see room for a HG player there. If he and the club can find a move for him, that will probably be best for his career and England ambitions but the way our fans have treated him has clearly dented his confidence and that should never be the case. We should be behind him.
It's not evidence.
Judging by that game Yaya Toure looks shit. Why you talking about a game from three years ago that is pointless friendly?
Well it IS evidence though. If providing a visual pictorial record of something that actually happened doesn't count as evidence, then I don't know what would
I suppose opinion and conjecture are KINDS of evidence
Whenever I have see him in Rio's tour videos on MUTV, Cleverley always seems like a cocky so-and-so. If his "confidence" can't survive some justified fan criticism then clearly he isn't as good a player as he thinks. And he's definitely NOT a scapegoat for last season - the blame for that goes to a crap manager that's walked away with a single digit million pay-off!
Does one gif of John O'Shea finishing prove he's a good enough striker to play for Manchester United? Actually, wait, there's a bunch of great JOS finishes. So, there's plenty of evidence for it, maybe he should have been a striker, we'd have won the Quad.Well it IS evidence though. If providing a visual pictorial record of something that actually happened doesn't count as evidence, then I don't know what would
I suppose opinion and conjecture are KINDS of evidence
It's a pointless friendly. On evidence, Yaya Toure looked shit in that game. Cleverley looked better than him.Well it IS evidence though. If providing a visual pictorial record of something that actually happened doesn't count as evidence, then I don't know what would
I suppose opinion and conjecture are KINDS of evidence
And we have four AMs at the club better than him, hell I'd play Fellaini as a AM than Cleverley so make that 5.
By the way it's 2014 now incase you ain't realised.
Of course it doesn't. But if you could find a gif of that it would be evidence. It might be an anomaly and might lack any similar supporting evidence, but it would still be evidence.
Well the point is that someone said Cleverly isn't capable of doing that, which is a fair opinion. I said that I disagree, and posted an image (of a fact, which actually occurred) which backed up my claim, so I don't really see what's so unreasonable about that...
I don't know why you're bothering to be honest eddiebb, enjoy and good luck!
I think the game is moving away from the two all-rounders who just clog away in midfield. You need to be defensively adept enough to at least cover or play in a system which allows a player to play between the circle and the box. If we didn't have Rooney I could see TC doing a decent enough job there and possibly making it his own but you are right. As of right now the system is not just geared to his strengths. Poor wingers who offer very little, Rooney dropping deep and getting in his way and midfielders who are either so far past it or so immobile that the galaxy is basically orbiting them while they try and play football.
If he stays and LVG see's the pass and move game in him and develops it I think we may see a different player. But even if he leaves and puts in a fair shift at another club it's not an excuse to come out of the gate and call him a shit footballer. Especially with where the club has sunk to this season.
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Here is not just a gif, but a YouTube video that O'Shea can play striker. I assume that is big evidence.
Here is evidence that O'Shea for me would make a great back up to DDG.
http://www.youtube.co.uk/watch?v=79NLmSokD2I
The term scapegoat is not soley aimed at him and might not be the right word but there is no doubting he has had shit thrown his way no matter what he has done. He was extremely poor this season, no doubting that and did warrant plenty of criticism but in my opinion, it has been over the top when there was no need to it. Yes, in an ideal world, he could deal with it but we have to be realistic, he is a human, who has emotions and a lot of fans have not helped him this season (both United and England).
In regards to Rio's diary, bloody hell, he is kicking around with his mates. Many people are different characters on the pitch to what they are off the it.
Look at the awareness, the composure, the fast reactions, the movement, the finish. He's the next Gerd Muller. Fergie, sign him up.
It's not though. It's evidence that O'Shea can chip a goalkeeper with his left foot. It's evidence that O'Shea can beat an offside trap. It's evidence that O'Shea is a decent defender one-on-one and can wear a green goalkeeper's kit. It's not evidence of what you said, because that's just not black-and-white.
Read your own post first
Also O'Shea did it in games that counted. Not meaningless friendlies.Well it IS evidence though. If providing a visual pictorial record of something that actually happened doesn't count as evidence, then I don't know what would
I suppose opinion and conjecture are KINDS of evidence
Also you telling me you'd play Cleverley AM ahead of Mata, Kagawa, Rooney, Januzaj and even Fellaini? No you wouldn't.
Well someone said they didn't think he was incisive enough to play AM. I posted that I disagreed, as long as it was in a certain system, and posted a gif that backed up my feeling that he is capable of being incisive. It's really not that outlandish. We've reached the stage where you're trying to deny that a gif of something happening actually counts as evidence of anything. I just don't understand how you're supposed to argue anything if showing something that happened doesn't count as any kind of evidence. It's really pointless to continue discussing it.
Well no, of course not, apart from Fellaini depending on circumstances. That's not what I said though.
I'd play him over Fellaini
It is outlandish. You are judging on one game from three years ago, which I have told you was a pointless friendly.
Show me since then what he has done to show he can play as AM? It's not worth discussing because we have better players at the club who can play that position and your only evidence is a gif from three years ago.
Oh stop it you! They'll keep banging on about it! If we stop replying, they'll go away.I'd play him over Fellaini
Also feel the need to re-iterate somethign that was posted by the wise Pogue Mahone (almost credited Pexbo with it but felt I better get my facts right).
I snipped it a little bit to fit it into context here. He's right - these totally pointless 'he thinks, she thinks' arguments are a blight on proper discussion.
I officially quit, because I have become this guy right now and I should rather sleep:
LVG might just turn Cleveley into what Aaron Ramsey did for Arsenal. I am not saying it will, but at least I am hoping. As much as I think don't think he is capable of making the cut, I am hoping he will prove me wrong because at least his heart is with United all along.
I don't think Cleverley has Ramsey's talent. If he could get as good as Ramsey is for Arsenal, that would be a phenomenal turn around!
I have an Arsenal friend who was very critical of Ramsey a few years ago. Similar to Cleveley's situation now.
I think Cleverley will have a part to play in a team with a proper game plan and set up.
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