A cursory glance leads me to believe it's that fifth player where we struggle to reach a consensus.
Henry, Ronaldo, KDB and Salah are on most lists.
Henry, Ronaldo, KDB and Salah are on most lists.
Top 5 Premier League players ever
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Uh, he wasn't even the best at Liverpool?
To be fair, Messi was outperformed by Iniesta and Xavi in the UCL finals(only by Iniesta in 2015, of course) and wasn't that great in the WC finals either. Even in Copa América final he was possibly the worst player on the pitch.
Hate how few keepers and defenders are listed on these types of lists, goals, assists and dribbling don't make up all football.
you should try watching football matches before talking about them mate
I watched all those matches, mate.
Xavi and Iniesta were clearly better than Messi in Roma 09 and slightly better in Wembley 11(great game from the Argentine, but the Spaniards totally bossed you guys); in Berlin 15, Iniesta was the best man on the pitch(not sure if he was officially awarded).
He was decent in WC14 final, produced some chances, but nothing special. In the last one, he was also outperformed by other players, like Di Maria.
Now it's me who asks: did you watch the Copa final? Possibly the worst match in Messi'scareer; even worse than that Barcelona choke against Roma in 18.
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1) Ronaldo
2) Salah
3) Henry
4) De Bruyne
5) Aguero
Honourable mentions: Suarez, Shearer, Rooney, Giggs, Scholes, Keane, Gerrard, Lampard, Drogba, Mane
2) Salah
3) Henry
4) De Bruyne
5) Aguero
Honourable mentions: Suarez, Shearer, Rooney, Giggs, Scholes, Keane, Gerrard, Lampard, Drogba, Mane
True. Being a full kit wanker has to count for something
Rome 09 was a merely just good final, with an extraordinary freakish goal. Nowehere near the best player on the pitch.
Wembley 11, he can easily be considered the best player on the pitch or if you preffer the other two midgets game, to the very least on pair with them, not even remotely for me. Yet he was clearly the most incisive of the three and the one THAT HAD to drop down to the middle to actually make that midfeild click and took over the game, before that, Barca was struggling quite a bit and XAvi was desperate calling for help, what he did from that on was one of the best displays of any game, no matter final.
Berlin 15 it was the most non chalant and relaxed Messi final ever, that team was on fire and worked like a well oiled machine. He was great, like it was Ney, Iniesta and almost everyone, not easy to signal one player, more than probably if his actions that provocked the goals ended with him scoring would have take the cake.
As a side note: In many ways as great as that final was from Barca, was also a signed that they reached a point of such self confidence and fluidity that they started to stood at the very edge of becoming extremely relaxed bordering a serious lack of focus that actually happened at almost every level in the Club years later.
He had quite a good to very good final in WC14, yet not Messi alike in a couple of almost clear chances.
He had a great WC22 final, it was a great coral perfomance nonetheless from many that also were at a great level including Di Maria.
He had a mediocre Copa America 21 Final, yet with lots of grinta, he wasn't fully fit either but Scaloni and the team need it him there even on a wheel chair (BTW WC14 he was on cotton the whole competition, like was Angel and Kun, really bad timing for Sabella, that's why he switched to a more defensive oriented and counter attack team during the competition). He also fluked a clear chance as hell that he usually scores with his eyes shut no matter how bad the ball might have bounce, the field or whatever.
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Good post.
I still think that Messi was better than Ronaldo in finals(2011 in particular was way better than anything Ronaldo has ever produced in finals); it's just he wasn't exactly a prime example of clutch player in finals either.
Scholes, Giggs, Scholes, Keane, Scholes. In that order.
Aguero: 0.67 goals/match, 5 PL titles.
Salah: 0.63 goals/match, 1 PL title.
People picking Salah over Aguero due to recency bias perhaps?
On the topic of the Top 5 premier league players of all time:
1. Ronaldo
2. George Best
3. Wayne Rooney
4. Sergio Aguero
5. Thierry Henry
Salah: 0.63 goals/match, 1 PL title.
People picking Salah over Aguero due to recency bias perhaps?
On the topic of the Top 5 premier league players of all time:
1. Ronaldo
2. George Best
3. Wayne Rooney
4. Sergio Aguero
5. Thierry Henry
Dunno if I agree with that, thought I can get that other players might have a better goal ratio or a better win ratio too (not quantity, since I think he has the most goals in finals ever) .
Yet he played two many of them, he scored and assisted or generated the play that ended in the goal even not being a direct assist in lots of them too.
So regarding the term clutch, he certainly was in the majority, like the 09 mentioned above, but this doesn't imply overall perfomance, that is Messi's best asset on any match, leaving stats aside.
Yet I can get that in some finals, he didn't have a Messi Godlike match, making it worse when he had some of those type of perfomances in CL2011, against Santos, against Bilbao, etc...I guess we expect him to repat the feat time and again due to his talent, carreer and also in concordance with lots of times the tournament itself when he is on fire (like Copa 2021, that final in contrast with the rest of the matches sucks, but he created such expectation).
Regarding those expectations, with him us fans we are always a bit too extreme, worse in a very yellow press and social media era that sometimes reaches incredible levels of stupidity that players in the past didn't have to even remotely face.
Ronaldo
Henry
KDB
Salah
Shearer/Giggs
Kind of torn on that last slot.
Henry
KDB
Salah
Shearer/Giggs
Kind of torn on that last slot.
Premier League as in post-1992, so no Best.
Regarding the Topic, I think is harder with the EPL, because it had to many really top special players, but not as clear cut fellas like Di Stefano, Cryuff, Maradona, R9, Messi and cia. in other leagues would be hard to name only just 5 of those Genius types ones, but at the same time it's an easier job to choose them.
Only in terms of talent, because some of the most talented played their trait just a couple of years, the list would be too long and hard to really put many of the names clearly above others, bar Cristiano and maybe in a lesser way Henry....
Then fellas like Salah, Aguero, Rooney, Cantona, Suarez, etc etc too many of them and even journeyman lads like Ibra/Tevez deserve to among the most talented players ever in the EPL, it's really difficult to do such list in pure terms of talent, not carreer, behaviour, identification with clubs etc.
Only in terms of talent, because some of the most talented played their trait just a couple of years, the list would be too long and hard to really put many of the names clearly above others, bar Cristiano and maybe in a lesser way Henry....
Then fellas like Salah, Aguero, Rooney, Cantona, Suarez, etc etc too many of them and even journeyman lads like Ibra/Tevez deserve to among the most talented players ever in the EPL, it's really difficult to do such list in pure terms of talent, not carreer, behaviour, identification with clubs etc.
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Cole
Scholes
Keane
Rio
Vidic
Scholes
Keane
Rio
Vidic
Why don't you include assists and overall play? Aguero was a striker and Salah a wide forward.
Henry
Van Persie
Suarez
Ronaldo
Salah
Van Persie
Suarez
Ronaldo
Salah
I think you didn't read any of the OP.
Not at all biased….
Cantona
Rooney
Nistelrooy
Zlatan
Ronaldo
Cantona
Rooney
Nistelrooy
Zlatan
Ronaldo
Here's a fun exercise:
From 1992, do this for La Liga
From 1992, do this for La Liga
No he isnt. Suarez in the PL is the worst of them 3 easily.
Peak Henry was the best player in the world and was robbed of the Ballon d'Or, should have won it over Nedved.
Not sure about this but if it's about PL only I can see that
Heh. Nah. Henry was never the best player in the world. In 2003 was Ronaldo and by 2004 Ronaldinho. Should he have won the Ballon D'Or over Nedved? Why? The latter dominated Serie A(a stronger league) and lead Juventus to a CL final. Which had he not stupidly pulled a Keane they probably would have won too
Here's a fun exercise:
From 1992, do this for La Liga
Sticking to the 90's only.
Stoichkov, Laudrup, Rivaldo, Romario, R9 (Barca season).
How and why is Suarez so highly rated ? Great player ? Sure but top 5 PL all time ? Cmon..
Salah, De Bruyne, Henry, Rooney, Keane In no particular order
Gerrard and Lampard have great claims too.
Suarez and Ronaldo had amazing individual seasons but had their peaks for Barca and Madrid
But then what about Aguero, Shearer, Giggs, Scholes and Viera? Feck this is hard
Gerrard and Lampard have great claims too.
Suarez and Ronaldo had amazing individual seasons but had their peaks for Barca and Madrid
But then what about Aguero, Shearer, Giggs, Scholes and Viera? Feck this is hard
How can Ronaldo get in over Rooney? Rooney was clear until 2007 then Ronaldo fecked off in 2009 and Rooney went on to have a couple of amazing seasons after.
Sure 07/08 Ronaldo was better than any Rooney but Rooney's longevity puts him well clear of Ronaldo for me
Sure 07/08 Ronaldo was better than any Rooney but Rooney's longevity puts him well clear of Ronaldo for me
UCL:
In 2009, Iniesta was better and motm. Messi had a good game and a great goal. 8/10.
In 2011, Messi was the best player on the pitch unquestionably. Shows your bias when you say Xavi or Iniesta were better because this was an all time performance. 10/10
In 2015, Messi had a good game and a huge contribution to 2 of the 3 goals. There was no truly outstanding performance in that game. 8/10
World cups:
In 2014: he had a decent game but missed a great chance. Not his best though. 7/10
In 2022: he had a good game even without the goals, scored and played a big part in the second goal. 8/10
As for Cristiano, you really can't compare Messi’s finals to his. The later had stinkers in 2014, 2016 and 2018.
In 2008, he had a very good first half but anonymous thereafter. 7/10
In 2017, he came alive after the first goal, overall a good game. 8/10
He played 2 finals for Portugal; was ok in 2004 but barely played in 2016.
For the top 5 in the Premier league career wise:
1. Henry
2. Salah
3. Cantona
4. Aguero
5. KDB
Cristiano's best years we're at Madrid. He had a couple of very good seasons here. That's it.
Top 5 individual seasons:
1. Cristiano 06/07: The 07/08 season has more hype due to the 42 goals and the ucl win but the previous season was actually better interms of overall influence on the play. He had many ptherwise not so good performances in 07/08 which were galvanised by the goals.
2. Any of Henry's seasons between 2002 and 2004
2. Suarez 2013/14
4. Salah 2017/18
5. Bale 2012/14
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That is a lot harder. Laudrup, Romario, Stoichkov, Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Figo, Zidane, Ronaldinho, Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Cristiano, Suarez, Modric, Benzema all have good shouts. Going by peak seasons for each I reckon Ronaldo 96/97, Rivaldo 98/99, Ronaldinho 04/05, Messi 11/12, Cristiano 14/15. Yet that doesn't include monstrous seasons from Romario and Stoichkov in 93/94, Xavi's 30+ assist campaign in 08/09, Suarez' 60 goals in 15/16 or Benzema's 21/22.Here's a fun exercise:
From 1992, do this for La Liga
Career wise:Here's a fun exercise:
From 1992, do this for La Liga
1. Messi
2. Ronaldo
Others Suarez, Iniesta, Xavi, Figo, Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Raul, Zidane.
Peak seasons:
1. Any of Messi's 09/10, 10/11, 11/12, 14/15, 18/19
2. R9 96/97
3. Ronaldinho 04/05
4. Cristiano's 11/12
5. Suarez 15/16
Mine is Messi, Cristiano, Ronaldo, and after that I'm honestly stumped. It's just mad the sheer quality of players, WAY above any other league during the timeframe. Like not even in the same galaxy
Probably, counting all competitions but only seasons in which they played in laliga, i'd go Romario and Zidane for the final 2 spots. Mmmm...maybe Rivaldo or Xavi over Zidane actually
Messi, C. Ronaldo, Iniesta, Alves, FigoHere's a fun exercise:
From 1992, do this for La Liga
Best premier league peaks:
1) Ronaldo
2) Henry
3) Salah
4) Bale
5) De Bruyne
Best overall (peak and longevity)
1) Henry
2) Salah
3) Shearer
4) Rooney
5) Scholes
Greatest Premier League players:
1) Giggs
2) Henry
3) Keane
4) Cantona
5) Salah
My personal favourite top 5:
1) Ronaldo
2) Henry
3) Scholes
4) RVN
5) Rooney
1) Ronaldo
2) Henry
3) Salah
4) Bale
5) De Bruyne
Best overall (peak and longevity)
1) Henry
2) Salah
3) Shearer
4) Rooney
5) Scholes
Greatest Premier League players:
1) Giggs
2) Henry
3) Keane
4) Cantona
5) Salah
My personal favourite top 5:
1) Ronaldo
2) Henry
3) Scholes
4) RVN
5) Rooney
You would have Zidane over Figo?
That's debatable.
I would say that Ronaldo was a more devastating attacking threat than anything we've seen in the PL when he was at his absolute peak for United.
In order to have Salah above him, we'll have to define "peak" in a way that favours the latter (which is possible, granted). But in terms of absolute peak, no.
Roy Keane
KDB
Rooney
Ronaldo
Henry
For defenders
Terry
Rio
Vidic
Ashley Cole
Carvahlio
KDB
Rooney
Ronaldo
Henry
For defenders
Terry
Rio
Vidic
Ashley Cole
Carvahlio
Im a bit late to the party but i can remember Rio saying that without Messi they would have won and basically him and vidic looked at each other at ht with regards to Messi and felt clueless about how to stop him. 2011 was very much his final.
Its really hard to make a list because whether it depends on peak seasons or consistency or longevity.
1. Henry for the balance
2. Ronaldo for being the best player in the world for a couple of seasons.
3. Salah
4. Aguero
5. Cantona
1. Henry for the balance
2. Ronaldo for being the best player in the world for a couple of seasons.
3. Salah
4. Aguero
5. Cantona
There’s no way van Dijk should feature at all in this thread.