Trollerball - Man City and UAE propaganda and operations

robinamicrowave

Wanted to be bran, ended up being littlefinger
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We're owned by dickheads and I honestly think some of our fans would thank the club for a slap on the face as they entered the stadium. "Wow, just a slap on the face to watch this team? Count me in!" The lengths some of them go to in order to defend the club makes me sad really. As much as I think it's unfair for journalists, not just McGeehan, to lump us in with the criticisms of our ownership, I think some of our fans are unwilling to apply critical thought to who our owners really are, and how they're currently part of something sinister going on at the very top of the game. The guy who decides the prices of our season tickets, Ferran Soriano, drives through one of the poorest areas in the country when he makes his visits to the Etihad, but the prices have increased by nearly 100% since we first won the league back in 2012.

There's a serious disconnect between who our fans are and who our owners think should be in the Etihad. The "Emptihad" stuff is vastly overstated but we don't sell out home games for that reason. We've never been a major international brand like United, and arguably we still aren't. We've always relied on local people for support, or being everybody's second favourite, but when the people local to our stadium are dirt poor and can't afford to pick up a habit like football, we're doing the opposite of helping them inside by trying to become such a massive brand. I don't think we're unique in this regard because most of the top teams in Europe have had to feck people over to get where they are, but it wouldn't sting so much if so many of our fans didn't take the "I'm alright, Jack" attitude - both with regards to season ticket pricing and the (ahem) "dealings" of our owners.

The responsibility isn't on the fans to oust the Sheikh from the club. That's impossible. But if they could just put tribalism to the side for a second then we might be able to have a reasonable discussion with these journalists. As far as I'm concerned the likes of Delaney and McGeehan are only bothered because it generates a lot of traffic for their sites, but Rabin isn't a paid investigator acting on behalf of ADUG. He's just a weirdo with a Twitter account and a lot of time on his hands. But now Rabin's doing to Delaney, et al, what they were doing to him - in the end they're just normal blokes working for a newspaper. At worst, they're hypocrites, they're not being to spread propaganda either. He was pretty funny at first but he's turned it into such a big deal - at least in the circles we all move in - that it's become impossible to have a discussion about any of it. I hope it all blows over soon because it's gotten pretty boring now.
 

MalcolmTucker

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We're owned by dickheads and I honestly think some of our fans would thank the club for a slap on the face as they entered the stadium. "Wow, just a slap on the face to watch this team? Count me in!" The lengths some of them go to in order to defend the club makes me sad really. As much as I think it's unfair for journalists, not just McGeehan, to lump us in with the criticisms of our ownership, I think some of our fans are unwilling to apply critical thought to who our owners really are, and how they're currently part of something sinister going on at the very top of the game. The guy who decides the prices of our season tickets, Ferran Soriano, drives through one of the poorest areas in the country when he makes his visits to the Etihad, but the prices have increased by nearly 100% since we first won the league back in 2012.

There's a serious disconnect between who our fans are and who our owners think should be in the Etihad. The "Emptihad" stuff is vastly overstated but we don't sell out home games for that reason. We've never been a major international brand like United, and arguably we still aren't. We've always relied on local people for support, or being everybody's second favourite, but when the people local to our stadium are dirt poor and can't afford to pick up a habit like football, we're doing the opposite of helping them inside by trying to become such a massive brand. I don't think we're unique in this regard because most of the top teams in Europe have had to feck people over to get where they are, but it wouldn't sting so much if so many of our fans didn't take the "I'm alright, Jack" attitude - both with regards to season ticket pricing and the (ahem) "dealings" of our owners.

The responsibility isn't on the fans to oust the Sheikh from the club. That's impossible. But if they could just put tribalism to the side for a second then we might be able to have a reasonable discussion with these journalists. As far as I'm concerned the likes of Delaney and McGeehan are only bothered because it generates a lot of traffic for their sites, but Rabin isn't a paid investigator acting on behalf of ADUG. He's just a weirdo with a Twitter account and a lot of time on his hands. But now Rabin's doing to Delaney, et al, what they were doing to him - in the end they're just normal blokes working for a newspaper. At worst, they're hypocrites, they're not being to spread propaganda either. He was pretty funny at first but he's turned it into such a big deal - at least in the circles we all move in - that it's become impossible to have a discussion about any of it. I hope it all blows over soon because it's gotten pretty boring now.
Finally a City fan who hasn't plunged their head in the kool-aid.
 

Trophy Room

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We're owned by dickheads and I honestly think some of our fans would thank the club for a slap on the face as they entered the stadium. "Wow, just a slap on the face to watch this team? Count me in!" The lengths some of them go to in order to defend the club makes me sad really. As much as I think it's unfair for journalists, not just McGeehan, to lump us in with the criticisms of our ownership, I think some of our fans are unwilling to apply critical thought to who our owners really are, and how they're currently part of something sinister going on at the very top of the game. The guy who decides the prices of our season tickets, Ferran Soriano, drives through one of the poorest areas in the country when he makes his visits to the Etihad, but the prices have increased by nearly 100% since we first won the league back in 2012.

There's a serious disconnect between who our fans are and who our owners think should be in the Etihad. The "Emptihad" stuff is vastly overstated but we don't sell out home games for that reason. We've never been a major international brand like United, and arguably we still aren't. We've always relied on local people for support, or being everybody's second favourite, but when the people local to our stadium are dirt poor and can't afford to pick up a habit like football, we're doing the opposite of helping them inside by trying to become such a massive brand. I don't think we're unique in this regard because most of the top teams in Europe have had to feck people over to get where they are, but it wouldn't sting so much if so many of our fans didn't take the "I'm alright, Jack" attitude - both with regards to season ticket pricing and the (ahem) "dealings" of our owners.

The responsibility isn't on the fans to oust the Sheikh from the club. That's impossible. But if they could just put tribalism to the side for a second then we might be able to have a reasonable discussion with these journalists. As far as I'm concerned the likes of Delaney and McGeehan are only bothered because it generates a lot of traffic for their sites, but Rabin isn't a paid investigator acting on behalf of ADUG. He's just a weirdo with a Twitter account and a lot of time on his hands. But now Rabin's doing to Delaney, et al, what they were doing to him - in the end they're just normal blokes working for a newspaper. At worst, they're hypocrites, they're not being to spread propaganda either. He was pretty funny at first but he's turned it into such a big deal - at least in the circles we all move in - that it's become impossible to have a discussion about any of it. I hope it all blows over soon because it's gotten pretty boring now.
Are you really a City fan? :D
 

do.ob

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3. Please explain the inaccuracies. City being state-owned is inaccurate. City's ownership structure is stated in Section 25 on p.38 of the financial report addendum to the latest annual report. Of course there's nuance here, Sheikh Mansour owns ADUG and Sheikh Mansour is Deputy PM of the United Arab Emirates and several state-owned entities have commercial relationships with City. But that's the point. Nuance. McGeehan's writing often rests on the premise that City is state-owned (he can't directly conflate Manchester City and e.g. the Libyan arms embargo without it), so he has to abandon nuance to make the premise stick. That's intellectual dishonesty.
4. Please explain. There are leaked emails that potentially show Manchester City trying to cover up the bypassing of FFP. That's an interesting story. There are leaked emails that potentially show the UAE government trying to cover up the bypassing of the Libyan arms embargo. That's an interesting story. Each individual story is separate and irrelevant to the other, but McGeehan has chosen to conflate the stories to sensationalise the writing. Is there a direct link between City trying to inflate a sponsorship in 2013 to pass FFP (for example) and the UAE government shipping anti-tank missiles to Libya in 2019? Of course not. It's fatuous.
5. Like you say, and he admits, he is not holding City fans accountable for what the owners of City do in the geopolitical arena. He is underlining the seriousness of their conduct as well as showing some playbook similarities in both operations. Sure, but the similarities are fairly superficial. City, like any football club, will do anything in their power to protect their competitive position. The UAE, like any country/government, will do anything in their power to protect their national interests. It's not particularly clever to note those similarities. He talks about weaponised City fans as though a few City fans on twitter have a material impact on the UAE's global reputation.
6. Are you saying that everything published on an open source platform is without merit? Not at all. I've published plenty of open-source articles! My point was that McGeehan (and Ewan MacKenna as another example) have both previously been unable to publish their work in mainstream newspapers. They have openly complained about this on their twitter accounts at various points. A well-researched and well-sourced article on Manchester City breaking FFP (for example) will be published by newspapers because it's of journalistic interest, the work is credible, and the story will sell etc. See all the articles published that were informed by the Der Spiegel leaks. Imagine the potential selling power of a story where a journalist is able to tie Manchester City directly to the starvation of Yemeni children (see MacKenna's pinned tweet). Newspapers would be crawling all over themselves to publish it. Except they haven't published it. Why? Because the articles lack credibility and the newspapers have sensible legal counsel.

The drawback of the article, in my view, is the last part, about the Twitter anon account, which is based on an assumption. It could be true, it could not. That being said, it is still interesting, but should maybe not have been such a focus (i.e. headline). Agreed. It's hard to work out why McGeehan and the crew have got so annoyed about Rabin. He's raised some interesting points about the hypocrisy of some of the journalists and what their agendas might be, but they'd be much better to just ignore him. An anon twitter account is such small fry in the grand scheme of things.
You say he's inaccurate about the ownership, when - at least in this piece - he's not talking about state ownership, he's talking about control, linking state and club via the people in charge.

You say there is no link between City and what the UAE does in the region, when Simon Pearce - a board member at City - apparently deals with a broken arms embargo on Libya and if City is the front for the UAE then it makes absolutely sense to bring up Yemen and Libya, because that's precisely the kind of imagery that the club is supposed to paint over. It's ironic that you bring up both emails as if they are written in different languages when both were sent by the same person.

Sure you can say City is an easy target, because it creates a bigger audience, but why would it be bad to educate English people about how a club in the middle of their lives (and fans themselves) is being used? How is it bad to get maximum exposure on humanitarian issues?

If I was a City fan I'd sure like to know how this concept of fan fusion can be exploited to turn fans into PR bots for something they would probably reject in a vacuum and you can easily see it working to some degree when you look at how journalists critical of the country/club connection are being attacked.

That being said he indeed didn't do himself any favour by attacking a random twitter user. It's an interesting thought and a logical extension of City's strategy, but doing so without any proof probably invalidates his article completely for any commercial institution.

The whole identity fusion angle is actually quite interesting, but it's a little unfortunate that he's used and abused a well-respected academic (she initially retweeted the article but has seen distanced herself from it)
Talking about unfortunate inaccuracies I'd also like to know where that happened, because the original article is still re-tweeted by her and although she has answered numerous questions from City fans about details I haven't seen her distance herself from it on Twitter.
 
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robinamicrowave

Wanted to be bran, ended up being littlefinger
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Interesting article. Not sure how it'll scan on here but it's worth a read.

https://medium.com/@allyfogg66/manchester-city-morality-and-me-a9d2126a67ee
I’ve been thinking a lot lately about my own moral & political engagement in the football club I love, Manchester City. I do not claim to be an expert on any of the issues of global finance, accountancy, the politics of the Middle East and the Persian Gulf or even, if I’m honest, football. All I am here is a fan, who has read, discussed and reacted to endless newspaper articles, blogs, podcasts and miscellaneous pigeon posts about my club, and who has developed some opinions along the way. I don’t claim my views represent all City fans, or even any others, but I suspect if I think something, a lot of other fans do too.

When I’m not thinking about football, I’m usually thinking about politics. I first joined Amnesty International as a 16 year old in 1983. I’ve been engaged in a succession of political and humanitarian movements ever since. I am the Chair of the board of a national charity. I’m unashamedly of the radical left. Not surprisingly, I am anything but an admirer of the ruling royal families of the United Arab Emirates, their political and social repression, their religious fundamentalism or their business activities. Nonetheless I have found myself sucked in to their world. The couple of thousand words below are my attempt to place my personal position as a football fan and City fan in the context of the ownership of my club.

To begin, some quick personal context. I moved from Scotland to Manchester in 1992 and took a house in Rusholme/Moss Side, just yards from Maine Road, and I started going to a few matches. My arrival in Manchester coincided exactly with the ascent of Fergie’s babes & the beginning of United’s greatest period of dominance. I could have donned red to match my politics, but as an inveterate champion of the underdog, I fell just a little in love with hapless City as they tumbled out of the Premier League down one, then two divisions, before storming back up with some blistering celebrations of joyous football under Royle and Keegan. Around that time I read Colin Shindler’s wonderful fan memoir ‘Manchester United Ruined My Life’ and by then, for sure, I knew that Manchester’s blues are my people and always will be.

I tell you this in part because, in these very different times, I have occasionally been called a ‘glory hunter’ which makes me laugh. Guys, I’m a City fan. I am, by definition, a misery-hunter. Why do you think they call us the blues?

Jump forward a few years, and in an entirely unforeseen development, I find myself supporting one of the most brilliant, spectacular and increasingly successful football team that British — even world — football has ever known. What can I say? Shit happens.

This year, as Spring sprang into Summer, English football fans were treated to one of the most breathtaking and thrilling title chases of the Premier League era or any other. A magnificent Liverpool team (successive Champions League finalists and soon-to-be European Champions) scored more points than they had ever scored in their history, and indeed more points than any other team has ever scored — with one exception. Manchester City, in the year after notching up a historic hundred points, scraped home in 2018/19 with a 98 point total that sealed the title by a point. It was an intense, exhausting, unprecedented title chase, competed for mostly in an unusually sporting spirit of mutual respect and admiration between two brilliant managers and sets of players, if not always the fans. (What can I say? Fans gonna fan.) City then went on to complete an unprecedented domestic treble by doling out a proper thrashing to Watford in the FA Cup Final.

In the weeks since, we should have been basking in the wondrous sporting achievements we’ve witnessed, taking a breather, enjoying the Women’s World Cup & a bit of cricket before pulling up our sleeves and preparing to do it all over again. Instead, like most City fans, I have found myself doggedly wading through accusations that we all-but cheated our way to success, that we have blood on our hands, or in the exact words of one Guardian podcasters, that we should either just stop supporting our team or else “look to our consciences.”

In the few days after the Cup final, all of this came across as dismally pathetic sour grapes from people unwilling to accept that the treble had been won because a group of good players had been turned by a managerial genius into a superlative team, a whole far greater than its parts. It’s gone on since then, becoming increasingly hysterical and increasingly devoid of barest efforts at evidence or reason.

A lot of the Tweets, blogs and articles said things like “City fans need to think about this.” Believe you me, we have. Over a period of about a decade between 1998 and 2008 we had watched as Manchester City Council effectively merged with the board of Manchester City FC; dragged the club back from the literal brink of bankruptcy and oblivion; used our club as a bargaining chip to attract and finance the 2002 Commonwealth Games; moved our club from the much-loved drafty old shed in Moss Side to the shiny new, often soulless, cavernous space of the City of Manchester Stadium; and then use that to leverage eye-watering levels of investment from Sheikh Mansour and the Abu Dhabi United Group which ultimately floated the moribund local economy of the entire city, paid for the regeneration of huge swathes of East Manchester, and brought new schools, parks, sports centres and housing estates to some of the most deprived neighbourhoods in Britain.

I’m sure it was actually more prolonged, but in my memory there was one day at the end of August 2008 when City fans were told that we were now owned by the royal family of Abu Dhabi, the stadium was now called the Etihad and oh by the way, we’ve just signed Robinho from Real Madrid. PS your ticket just went up 20%.

To say that City fans and our wishes were secondary to other concerns in all of this would be a lie. We weren’t secondary. We were absolutely 100% irrelevant. No one asked what we thought about any of it, and when we did say that actually you know what, we don’t really like any of this, we were entirely ignored. It’s rarely mentioned that a lot of City fans didn’t like the new stadium, didn’t like the ethos, didn’t like the new TV-driven megabucks culture of Premier League football and stopped going. You’ll still see them in every pub in Manchester on game days, still sweating blue beads, but preferring to watch the match over a pint of Holts than from the folding seats of the Colin Bell Stand. City till they die, which in the case of many of them, probably won’t be too long now, bless ‘em.

So, on to the present day and the heaps of ordure being piled on to City fans. Here is my position — I am deeply concerned about human rights in the Gulf states and elsewhere. I am well aware of the appalling repression of political dissent in the Gulf region, notably workers’ rights, women’s right, LGBT rights, migrant rights, and political and religious freedoms. I am horrified by the humanitarian crisis caused by the unjust war in Yemen. As a football fan, I am conscious that our influence is minor but perhaps not negligible. I would love to use whatever influence I have to make things any better.

So here is my issue. The vast majority of opinion, comment and analysis that has appeared in recent weeks has not inspired me in any way to become more engaged in issues around the ownership of my club or to use my position in a positive way. It has served to utterly alienate me, to distrust the faith and motivations of those making the attacks and to do anything other than be seen to be siding with the people making the attacks. Let’s be blunt. I’m a radical left politico. I’ve even been known to write for the Guardian. If you can’t persuade me, you’re not going to persuade anyone.

But I don’t want this to be a whinge. I want to do something constructive here. Rather than squabble with named individuals and the arguments that have served to enrage rather than engage, I thought I would offer a few constructive words, from a City fan to human rights activists, journalists, commentators, pundits and random social media bigmouths as to how you can talk about these issues in a way that might actually get you somewhere, at least with City fans. I appreciate this might not be your objective, but at least then we’ll all know where we stand. And to other City fans, I hope you can use this to have a think and a chat among ourselves about how we can maybe get better at responding to some of this shit?

1. Separate the issues of the team’s brilliance from the ownership. City fans know full well we had a huge sack of cash land in our laps in 2008 and the club has used that to buy a squad of players who are good enough to compete at the top level of the Premier League and in Europe. Of course, without the money, we couldn’t have done what we’ve done. We did not, however, buy our victories. We never followed the Galactico model. We have never paid over the odds to distort the market or gazump our rivals for a player. Not a single one of the 20 most expensive transfers in football history has gone to Man City. Yes, our overall net spend is the biggest, but we were starting from a very low base to build a world class squad, and that costs more. Anyway, that seems to have levelled out a few years ago and now, both in the transfer market and on the pitch, we are competing absolutely fairly with our rivals in the top echelons of world football, those we beat fair and square in England and who, so far, have beaten us fair and square in Europe. That is sport. Football is a gazillion pound game and you need to spend untold millions to get to the big money table and untold millions more to stay there. To actually win requires a lot more than money. City fans don’t mind being told their team is expensive and that our success is a result of great, laughably bizarre fortune. We do object to being told we cheated.

2. Separate the issues of human rights and financial fair play. Now I’m sure somewhere out there are geeky souls who both understand and genuinely care about the labyrinthine maze of UEFA’s financial regulations. Perhaps a few of them are football fans. But what should be clear to anyone is that FFP rules have been built up by UEFA (who have been over decades, let’s not forget, just about the most shamelessly corrupt organisation on the global stage) to protect the vested interests of their oldest & most powerful member clubs against nouveau riche new kids on the block like City and PSG. Leaving aside wider issues with the owners, it’s a downright weird set of rules that would punish one club for pumping billions-worth of fresh money into the game and the surrounding social and physical infrastructure of the city, while considering it perfectly fine that just across town another owner is stripping billions out of the club and the game to swell the coffers of a US corporate franchise.

Perhaps you really, truly care about the morality of paying a former manager a bonus from Bank de Suisse capital investment account 7Gx6798864/Z when it should have been paid from revenue investment account 7Gx6798865/K, and good luck to you, but I’m not losing any sleep. Manchester City is a multinational company that will employ a team of the best accountants money can buy to find the tricksiest loopholes imaginable to outwit the team of accountants employed by UEFA and I, and every City fan, is absolutely fine with that — in truth I’d be disappointed if they were not making every possible effort to do so.

Just to be clear, I’m not saying anybody should refrain from talking or writing about FFP, whether City’s critics or fans. I am not saying (and genuinely don’t yet know) whether any of MCFC’s creative accountancy does or did cross lines of honesty, legality or fairness. I am saying that if you throw FFP in with every other concern you have, it will look like you’re just throwing enough shit at the wall in the hope that some will stick.

3. Talk about the principles, not the specifics of one club. Do you want changes in the FA rules about, for example, what it means to be a fit and proper person to own a football club? Do you think corporations or individuals with connections to dictatorial regimes and abuses of human rights should not be allowed to own British football clubs? Well fine, that’s a good argument and I broadly agree with it. I just think that should apply to all clubs, not just Manchester City. Whatever new rules you are likely to be drawing up, you are highly likely to be taking a hell of a lot of other Premier League and global clubs down with us, so let’s talk about the full picture.

Alternatively, do you think there should be a policy of boycotts, divestment and sanctions against the coalition responsible for wholesale mass murder of civilians in Yemen? Or against countries which seriously violate human rights & repress women & LGBT people? Great. I would be personally more than happy if City’s owners were kicked out of the country and out of the game as part of a co-ordinated global campaign to end the war. What I cannot accept is Man City being expected to shoulder all the approbation and blame when there are 6,000 other British companies who together go to make up the largest investment in Abu Dhabi by any nation state on Earth, who appear to do so without anyone caring a jot. More glaringly, there is nothing more ludicrous than expecting a football club — and within that, football fans — to be the conscience of the nation when British arms companies, with the full blessing of the British government, are making and selling the very armaments and bombs that are causing much of the slaughter.

4. Don’t ask City fans to grovel in apology. Ask us to help. One of the more simplistic ideas floated about ADG’s ownership of MCFC is that it is all about ‘sportswashing’ — the buying of good PR through association with the world’s most popular sport. Of course image, reputation and respect are incredibly important to the Sheikhs and their companies, but this investment runs far beyond sportswashing. It is all about cold, hard business. The Abu Dhabi Group are expanding beyond petrodollars into other realms, and the top tier of football is now a massive cornerstone of global capitalism. The City of Manchester has become a petri-dish for a new business model. To be only slightly trite about it, if this was about sportswashing, it’s been bloody useless. It has succeeded only in attracting massive spotlights and detailed scrutiny to every corner of the political and corporate culture in the UAE, and look, here we all are now reading all about it, yet again.

As for the role of City fans, it would flatter us to call us inconsequential. We have no say in this. We have no power in this. We could not stop it if we wanted to. (I honestly don’t know how many City fans would want to fight to scrap or keep the current ownership, even if we could. I guess it would depend on what the alternative would be. The bottom line is we don’t and never will so the question is redundant.)

So where does that leave us? Fans will not be made to feel guilty about loving our team, celebrating our successes, loving our players, loving our manager, loving our badge. Just as the club is bigger than any of those, so too is the club much, much bigger than the ownership. We, as fans, will not apologise for our team’s brilliance or our club’s success, nor will we let you tarnish those with unfair allegations. But we know too that the owners and the wider business community in UAE is indeed sensitive to image concerns. That sensitivity is amplified, not diluted, by their ownership of MCFC. Football is now an exchange square for soft power — the capacity to use culture to influence other cultures to your economic and political advantage. That’s what City’s owners are doing in Manchester. It’s also what Premier League football is returning in spades.

What do I mean by that? Well look what happens when the MCFC Twitter account Tweets about support for LGBT rights. It has an impact across the world, and often results in prominent squabbles between the club’s local supporters and some from the Arabic world and beyond. City’s investment in women’s football has in many ways been more dramatic (if obviously on a lower scale) than their influence on the men’s game. That too is noticed, in parts of the world where women’s sports are massively restricted.

On a specific example, when last year British academic Matthew Hedges was imprisoned and arrested on dodgy spying charges in the Emirates, I was one of many City fans who responded to Amnesty’s Urgent Action requests to email the authorities, and I stressed my relationship with the club as one of my reasons to care about the case. I’m not saying it makes a difference when I do this on my own. I’m saying it does make a difference when thousands of us do the same. It’s worth noting that Hedges was indeed quickly pardoned as a consequence of the combined international pressure.

Please understand I am not arguing that the ADG’s ownership of the club is a moral good, but I am arguing that it presents opportunities, it is not a one way street, that in a world of exploitation, suffering and pain, football can be a force for good. I sincerely believe that if a more constructive dialogue could be opened between City fans and activists seeking positive political change, solidarity and progress in the Gulf states and around the world, then City fans could be a hugely powerful voice. But this will not and cannot work if it is based around asking fans to renounce their club or grovel in shame or apology for a situation for which we are not responsible and not to blame.

— — — — — -

It seems evident to me that the overwhelming majority of critical attacks on City fans have boiled down to nothing more than calls for City fans to be ashamed of their club instead of proud. I fail to see what this achieves for anyone. Sure, this is par for the course if we’re hearing from @CantonaLeDieu4Eva along the Mancunian Way or @MadKoppite97865357 from down the M62. When it’s coming from the senior football reporters of our national broadsheet press, or self-appointed human rights experts, it’s rather less forgivable or understandable.

In a classic dynamic of the social media age, the telling of the story has now become the story. A crude caricature of the interchange goes like this:

FOOTBALL JOURNALIST: Manchester City is a dirty club that has murdered and cheated its way to worthless victories and is now killing football.
CITY FAN ON TWITTER: Oh piss off, you twat.
FOOTBALL JOURNALIST: And now Manchester City fans are leaping to the defence of the brutal dictatorship of the UAE, they are complicit stooges, trolls and probably paid shills of the regime.
CITY FANS ON TWITTER: No, really, feck you.
FOOTBALL JOURNALIST: You see? PROOF! They’re just a bunch of abusive trolls.

It is an entirely corrosive, toxic dynamic, and I, for one, have had enough. If you have too, please get in touch. Let’s see what we can do about it.
 

stevoc

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Jun 11, 2011
Messages
20,329
Interesting article. Not sure how it'll scan on here but it's worth a read.

https://medium.com/@allyfogg66/manchester-city-morality-and-me-a9d2126a67ee
That is an interesting viewpoint, and i agree with parts of it.

This part is a bit disingenuous on several levels though i feel.

We have never paid over the odds to distort the market or gazump our rivals for a player. Not a single one of the 20 most expensive transfers in football history has gone to Man City.
First off Tevez turned down United to go to City in 2009, we can debate the reported fee and wages for that deal and whether it really was £47M & £280K pw or lower. But i think everyone sensible will agree that he he didn't join City simply for the challenge. He and his owner were almost certainly paid way more than the £25m and £120k pw United were offering, that is the very definition of gazumping a rival.

City did pay over the odds for many players in terms of fees and wages over the years, granted mostly in the first few years.

City did distort the wages and transfer markets, back in 2008 United and Chelsea's top earners like Ronaldo, Rooney, Ferdinand, Terry and Lampard were on wages around £120-140k. When City were bought over they started offering comparable deals around the £100k mark to good but not great players like Barry and Lescott. Within a short space of around 2-3 years the wages for top players in England increased substantially. Now that wasn't all down to City but they certainly contributed to inflating the market.
 
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andyox

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I think what's impressive is how succinctly you managed to prove the author right by demonstrating every single example of the City PR defence that City fans have coopted.

You're a plaything of a fecking horrible regime. If that bothers you then good, it should.
You can certainly argue that the club has been co-opted. Where I (and other fans) would push back on is that we as fans have been co-opted. To make it clear:
1) I was a City fan before ADUG and I'll be a City fan after ADUG
2) I wasn't a UAE apologist before ADUG and I won't be a UAE apologist after ADUG

So yes, please go ahead and criticise the UAE and its policies, I'll be doing the same. But you don't need to blame City fans or hold City fans responsible for those policies merely because we continue to support the club we've always supported.
 

iHicksy

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We're owned by dickheads and I honestly think some of our fans would thank the club for a slap on the face as they entered the stadium. "Wow, just a slap on the face to watch this team? Count me in!" The lengths some of them go to in order to defend the club makes me sad really. As much as I think it's unfair for journalists, not just McGeehan, to lump us in with the criticisms of our ownership, I think some of our fans are unwilling to apply critical thought to who our owners really are, and how they're currently part of something sinister going on at the very top of the game. The guy who decides the prices of our season tickets, Ferran Soriano, drives through one of the poorest areas in the country when he makes his visits to the Etihad, but the prices have increased by nearly 100% since we first won the league back in 2012.

There's a serious disconnect between who our fans are and who our owners think should be in the Etihad. The "Emptihad" stuff is vastly overstated but we don't sell out home games for that reason. We've never been a major international brand like United, and arguably we still aren't. We've always relied on local people for support, or being everybody's second favourite, but when the people local to our stadium are dirt poor and can't afford to pick up a habit like football, we're doing the opposite of helping them inside by trying to become such a massive brand. I don't think we're unique in this regard because most of the top teams in Europe have had to feck people over to get where they are, but it wouldn't sting so much if so many of our fans didn't take the "I'm alright, Jack" attitude - both with regards to season ticket pricing and the (ahem) "dealings" of our owners.

The responsibility isn't on the fans to oust the Sheikh from the club. That's impossible. But if they could just put tribalism to the side for a second then we might be able to have a reasonable discussion with these journalists. As far as I'm concerned the likes of Delaney and McGeehan are only bothered because it generates a lot of traffic for their sites, but Rabin isn't a paid investigator acting on behalf of ADUG. He's just a weirdo with a Twitter account and a lot of time on his hands. But now Rabin's doing to Delaney, et al, what they were doing to him - in the end they're just normal blokes working for a newspaper. At worst, they're hypocrites, they're not being to spread propaganda either. He was pretty funny at first but he's turned it into such a big deal - at least in the circles we all move in - that it's become impossible to have a discussion about any of it. I hope it all blows over soon because it's gotten pretty boring now.
Fantastic post sir.
 

MrPooni

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If you skim-read the article then superficially it's well-written, McGeehan knows what he's doing (this isn't his first rodeo on this topic). If you take the time to actually follow the leaps of logic, which are dripping in conflation and outright intellectual dishonesty, it's not quite as strong. To begin, the article starts from the perspective that City is state-owned (McGeehan has written extensively about this previously) and the logic then follows that Manchester City is run in the same style that the UAE government is run. The former is factually inaccurate, as McGeehan knows, although that doesn't by itself totally invalidate the latter. On the latter, McGeehan's previous angle was always to link City to the Yemeni civil war, but now that the UAE is withdrawing from Yemen, he's had to try to come up with a new link -- enter Libya. It's still fatuous. City and the UAE are one and the same because City broke FFP and the UAE broke an arms embargo in Libya. It's mind-bogglingly simplistic. The article continues to cover and conflate multiple other topics that have already been well-covered, always relying on references from the likes of Delaney, Harris x 2, Castles, MacKenna etc. It's a mutually beneficial relationship.

By the way, in replying to this thread, I'm well aware I'm falling into the trap McGeehan lays in the second half of the article on identity fusion. The whole identity fusion angle is actually quite interesting, but it's a little unfortunate that he's used and abused a well-respected academic (she initially retweeted the article but has seen distanced herself from it) to launch his critique of a City fan/twitter poster (imagine a serious journalist using half a column to have a pop at a twitter user...). And to drive home his point, he's used a social media expert who receives his salary exclusively from the Qatar Foundation, which is a fairly obvious conflict of interest. For what it's worth, I would never deny that as a City fan I'm biased about City. Reflexively we all tend to defend our club, except when it's indefensible. City breaking FFP is indefensible. City breaking rules on the transfer of U18s is indefensible, etc. But I'm a City fan, not a UAE fan. I have no need or interest in defending anything the UAE does. Which is where McGeehan's argument tends to lose steam. He wants to try to merge City/FFP with UAE/human rights issues because he's a researcher on the latter, and invoking City/FFP gains him a whole new audience of clicks. But as he himself admits, you can't hold City fans responsible for the actions of the UAE government in Yemen, Libya, or any other country/issue he jumps to next.

A final point. It's worth noting that the author has had to resort to publishing this piece on a blogging platform because he couldn't get a mainstream newspaper to publish it. This, remember, is a researcher on migrant rights. Except here he's writing an article on Manchester City that has nothing to do with migrant rights. Why? Which takes us back to the same list of journalists/bloggers I mentioned earlier who have all gleefully retweeted the article. To McGeehan's credit, he's set up a nice little niche for himself as the human rights author of choice for sports journalists looking to add a little gravitas to their City match reports. But it's unbelievably exploitative and cynical.
Soft power in action folks.
 

andyox

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We're owned by dickheads and I honestly think some of our fans would thank the club for a slap on the face as they entered the stadium. "Wow, just a slap on the face to watch this team? Count me in!" The lengths some of them go to in order to defend the club makes me sad really. As much as I think it's unfair for journalists, not just McGeehan, to lump us in with the criticisms of our ownership, I think some of our fans are unwilling to apply critical thought to who our owners really are, and how they're currently part of something sinister going on at the very top of the game. The guy who decides the prices of our season tickets, Ferran Soriano, drives through one of the poorest areas in the country when he makes his visits to the Etihad, but the prices have increased by nearly 100% since we first won the league back in 2012.

There's a serious disconnect between who our fans are and who our owners think should be in the Etihad. The "Emptihad" stuff is vastly overstated but we don't sell out home games for that reason. We've never been a major international brand like United, and arguably we still aren't. We've always relied on local people for support, or being everybody's second favourite, but when the people local to our stadium are dirt poor and can't afford to pick up a habit like football, we're doing the opposite of helping them inside by trying to become such a massive brand. I don't think we're unique in this regard because most of the top teams in Europe have had to feck people over to get where they are, but it wouldn't sting so much if so many of our fans didn't take the "I'm alright, Jack" attitude - both with regards to season ticket pricing and the (ahem) "dealings" of our owners.

The responsibility isn't on the fans to oust the Sheikh from the club. That's impossible. But if they could just put tribalism to the side for a second then we might be able to have a reasonable discussion with these journalists. As far as I'm concerned the likes of Delaney and McGeehan are only bothered because it generates a lot of traffic for their sites, but Rabin isn't a paid investigator acting on behalf of ADUG. He's just a weirdo with a Twitter account and a lot of time on his hands. But now Rabin's doing to Delaney, et al, what they were doing to him - in the end they're just normal blokes working for a newspaper. At worst, they're hypocrites, they're not being to spread propaganda either. He was pretty funny at first but he's turned it into such a big deal - at least in the circles we all move in - that it's become impossible to have a discussion about any of it. I hope it all blows over soon because it's gotten pretty boring now.
Yes agreed with all of that. Soriano et al are the embodiment of corporate, modern football. Absolutely no connection with the fans whatsoever, and despite City's success, you can see that disconnect in the fans' reaction every season when season ticket prices are increased and like you say when there are empty seats in the stadium. I think what annoys me most about this shift has been that it's so unnecessary. City as a club had an option (initially due to ADUG's cash) to do it differently, and now we are where we are, we still have that opportunity when you consider how TV/commercial revenue dwarfs matchday. Raising ticket prices by a few % every season does basically nothing for City, but it means a lot to fans. The relationship between the club and the fans is definitely rocky, and that's at a time when we have won back to back titles. I can only see it deteriorating further when we're inevitably less successful, and you can't make the justification of "well I'll pay an extra 50 quid (again) because we get to watch David Silva etc. winning the treble." I'll criticise City all day long for that corporatist stuff because that is something that the club directly controls and could change if the club wanted to. The sad truth is they won't because they don't care.

Also especially agree with the last part. I think Rabin started initially by just simply pointing out that some of these journalists may have agendas that would explain lack of nuance and hypocrisies in their writing. I agreed with him on that wholeheartedly. I said in my original post that a lot of what has been written is thoroughly exploitative and cynical, and I stand by that. But it's blown up way beyond that now in terms of the constant conspiracy theories and detective work. I think the majority of the journalists mentioned are just feeding the beast, in this case writing stuff for clicks. I think most of us can relate in our jobs to having to do things to keep corporate and the beancounters happy. To be honest I find it mindboggling that some of the journalists are still replying and fueling the merry-go-round. They'd be much better just ignoring the noise.
 

andyox

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Soft power in action folks.
If you can point me to anywhere in the "soft power in action" where I defend the UAE or its policies then I'd be much obliged.

Meanwhile I'll keep supporting City as I have always have done.
 

andyox

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You say he's inaccurate about the ownership, when - at least in this piece - he's not talking about state ownership, he's talking about control, linking state and club via the people in charge.

You say there is no link between City and what the UAE does in the region, when Simon Pearce - a board member at City - apparently deals with a broken arms embargo on Libya and if City is the front for the UAE then it makes absolutely sense to bring up Yemen and Libya, because that's precisely the kind of imagery that the club is supposed to paint over. It's ironic that you bring up both emails as if they are written in different languages when both were sent by the same person.

Sure you can say City is an easy target, because it creates a bigger audience, but why would it be bad to educate English people about how a club in the middle of their lives (and fans themselves) is being used? How is it bad to get maximum exposure on humanitarian issues?

If I was a City fan I'd sure like to know how this concept of fan fusion can be exploited to turn fans into PR bots for something they would probably reject in a vacuum and you can easily see it working to some degree when you look at how journalists critical of the country/club connection are being attacked.

That being said he indeed didn't do himself any favour by attacking a random twitter user. It's an interesting thought and a logical extension of City's strategy, but doing so without any proof probably invalidates his article completely for any commercial institution.

Talking about unfortunate inaccuracies I'd also like to know where that happened, because the original article is still re-tweeted by her and although she has answered numerous questions from City fans about details I haven't seen her distance herself from it on Twitter.
Yes Simon Pearce wrote both emails, that's not the point though. Manchester City have control over whether we break FFP or not. Manchester City don't have control over whether the UAE breaks an arms embargo in Libya. You can criticise City for the former without having to invoke the latter. Whether a football club chooses to overspend on buying a new player is clearly on a completely different level to a government using arms to play geopolitics in a third country. As I said in another reply, football clubs/businesses will always try to defend their competitive position, just as governments will always try to defend (rightly or wrongly) their national interests. So you can absolutely criticise City for breaking FFP and you should absolutely criticise the UAE for breaking the arms embargo in Libya. There's no need to conflate the two though.

It's absolutely not a bad thing to maximise exposure on humanitarian issues (I work in humanitarianism ffs). You can do that without moralising about City fans who continue to support the club though. See the additional medium blog posted by Ally (a City fan) above. There are definitely many ways to get City fans onside in terms of being able to use our relatively inconsequential position to try to influence or change unjust UAE policies. But, as an example, a journalist posting side by side images of City winning the league and a starving Yemeni child the day we won the league is probably not one of them. My problem with that type of journalism is not just that it's exploitative, but that it actually does nothing for the cause that the writer is supposedly passionate about. It's just cheap sensationalism.

On the last point, yes she has clarified the narrow focus of her academic work (which is fascinating by the way) on fan behaviour/fusion and she also posits how this may apply to City fans given our recent history of glorious failure from the 1980s up to ADUG. McGeehan used that to draw much broader conclusions about City fans and PR bots as they relate to the UAE and soft power etc. Those conclusions were far beyond her work, and she distanced herself from those.
 

NinjaFletch

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You can certainly argue that the club has been co-opted. Where I (and other fans) would push back on is that we as fans have been co-opted. To make it clear:
1) I was a City fan before ADUG and I'll be a City fan after ADUG
2) I wasn't a UAE apologist before ADUG and I won't be a UAE apologist after ADUG

So yes, please go ahead and criticise the UAE and its policies, I'll be doing the same. But you don't need to blame City fans or hold City fans responsible for those policies merely because we continue to support the club we've always supported.
But the problem with that statement is that we're not in the before or after stage. We're in the middle stage. You are a City fan with ADUG and, as you've implied without perhaps meaning to, you've become an apologist for the UAE because of it.

The takeover has put you in a difficult position, and the price that success has come at is one that you have to wrestle with whether you can accept or not. City fans are not exceptional in being willing to whitewash their owners problems as long as their side play pretty football (a lot of United fans will do the same if Saudi Arabia do take over), but whilst the interests of City fans in wanting their team to do well overlap with the interests of the UAE using your club for propaganda purposes the result is that you, and fans like you, have become useful pawns for them. Sorry if you don't like that.
 
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Jeppers7

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I don't get why City fans are attacking journalists ? Why do they think ADUG bought them ? Because they always liked them ? It's obvious they are using city for political favour and it's undeniable that the human rights atrocities have occurred and continue to occur.

It seems to offend them when City are associated with those atrocities, but surely we can all accept the very nature of the purchase was to enable a more favourable light to be shed.
 

Jeppers7

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Yes Simon Pearce wrote both emails, that's not the point though. Manchester City have control over whether we break FFP or not. Manchester City don't have control over whether the UAE breaks an arms embargo in Libya. You can criticise City for the former without having to invoke the latter. Whether a football club chooses to overspend on buying a new player is clearly on a completely different level to a government using arms to play geopolitics in a third country. As I said in another reply, football clubs/businesses will always try to defend their competitive position, just as governments will always try to defend (rightly or wrongly) their national interests. So you can absolutely criticise City for breaking FFP and you should absolutely criticise the UAE for breaking the arms embargo in Libya. There's no need to conflate the two though.

It's absolutely not a bad thing to maximise exposure on humanitarian issues (I work in humanitarianism ffs). You can do that without moralising about City fans who continue to support the club though. See the additional medium blog posted by Ally (a City fan) above. There are definitely many ways to get City fans onside in terms of being able to use our relatively inconsequential position to try to influence or change unjust UAE policies. But, as an example, a journalist posting side by side images of City winning the league and a starving Yemeni child the day we won the league is probably not one of them. My problem with that type of journalism is not just that it's exploitative, but that it actually does nothing for the cause that the writer is supposedly passionate about. It's just cheap sensationalism.

On the last point, yes she has clarified the narrow focus of her academic work (which is fascinating by the way) on fan behaviour/fusion and she also posits how this may apply to City fans given our recent history of glorious failure from the 1980s up to ADUG. McGeehan used that to draw much broader conclusions about City fans and PR bots as they relate to the UAE and soft power etc. Those conclusions were far beyond her work, and she distanced herself from those.
This I don't get at all......Imagine the media frenzy and how City fans would've reacted if David Gill had been involved in the supply of arms to the Middle East ! We were portrayed as the most arrogant and disrespectful club, manager, players etc when we bowed to political pressure and withdrew from the FA Cup :lol:

Imagine a top club official sending emails completely disregarding the rules of the sport and also writing an email on the supply of arms to the Middle East.

But yeah don't involve Manchester City in that, honest,local, hard done by, Manchester City. We don't want to be associated with anything our owners and officials do, outside of football......but we're more than happy to bask in their wealth and enjoy the success it brings.
 

do.ob

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Yes Simon Pearce wrote both emails, that's not the point though. Manchester City have control over whether we break FFP or not. Manchester City don't have control over whether the UAE breaks an arms embargo in Libya. You can criticise City for the former without having to invoke the latter. Whether a football club chooses to overspend on buying a new player is clearly on a completely different level to a government using arms to play geopolitics in a third country. As I said in another reply, football clubs/businesses will always try to defend their competitive position, just as governments will always try to defend (rightly or wrongly) their national interests. So you can absolutely criticise City for breaking FFP and you should absolutely criticise the UAE for breaking the arms embargo in Libya. There's no need to conflate the two though.

It's absolutely not a bad thing to maximise exposure on humanitarian issues (I work in humanitarianism ffs). You can do that without moralising about City fans who continue to support the club though. See the additional medium blog posted by Ally (a City fan) above. There are definitely many ways to get City fans onside in terms of being able to use our relatively inconsequential position to try to influence or change unjust UAE policies. But, as an example, a journalist posting side by side images of City winning the league and a starving Yemeni child the day we won the league is probably not one of them. My problem with that type of journalism is not just that it's exploitative, but that it actually does nothing for the cause that the writer is supposedly passionate about. It's just cheap sensationalism.

On the last point, yes she has clarified the narrow focus of her academic work (which is fascinating by the way) on fan behaviour/fusion and she also posits how this may apply to City fans given our recent history of glorious failure from the 1980s up to ADUG. McGeehan used that to draw much broader conclusions about City fans and PR bots as they relate to the UAE and soft power etc. Those conclusions were far beyond her work, and she distanced herself from those.
You argue as if Man City is this independent football club, when the whole point of this criticism is that it's not, that it's controlled by the people who also run Abu Dhabi. So it's not City doing anything, it's Simon Pearce&co allegedly breaking FFP just as it is Simon Pearce &co allegedly breaking arms embargoes and fecking up Yemen, so in that sense it's actually pretty hard not to compare strategies.
You acting as a living billboard for a distasteful regime and you don't like it when people remind you of that fact. And please don't remind me of Ally "I've been a human rights activist for 35 years, but I need a journalist to ask me very very nicely and hold my hand before I can attempt to do something about a regime using me and my club as camouflage" :(:(:( or "I am unashamedly of the radical left, no surprisingly I don't care about corruption and am all for employing the best set of accountants money can buy to to find the trickiest loophole imaginable. In truth I'd be disappointed if they were not making every possible effort to do so.

In Hannover fans have been protesting at matches for years, to the point where it became detrimental to the team, because the club's boss - a local business man who deals in hearing aids - was becoming authoritative and went against 50+1, yet on the other side I read about poor powerless City fans and how they can do nothing but cheer on the club and attack journalists.
 
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andyox

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But the problem with that statement is that we're not in the before or after stage. We're in the middle stage. You are a City fan with ADUG and, as you've implied without perhaps meaning to, you've become an apologist for the UAE because of it.

The takeover has put you in a difficult position, and the price that success has come at is one that you have to wrestle with whether you can accept or not. City fans are not exceptional in being willing to whitewash their owners problems as long as their side play pretty football (a lot of United fans will do the same if Saudi Arabia do take over), but whilst the interests of City fans in wanting their team to do well overlap with the interests of the UAE using your club for propaganda purposes the result is that you, and fans like you, have become useful pawns for them. Sorry if you don't like that.
Yes agreed, and I think this is the key point. I don't want to (and will not) whitewash the UAE and its foreign and domestic policies, but I do want to continue to support the club I've always loved.

The way I read your post is that you think that just by continuing to support City, I have become an apologist for the UAE and a useful pawn for them? If so, then I guess that's where we disagree. I'm not an advocate for, or defender of, any policies or values that the UAE represents, and that's how I personally (can't speak for other City fans) make my peace with continuing to support City under ADUG's ownership. I'm not willing to walk away, and I think your logic dictates that I should.

I think this is an interesting point by the way "whilst the interests of City fans in wanting their team to do well overlap with the interests of the UAE using your club..." I'm sure if ADUG was running the team badly, then City fans would be more motivated to protest ADUG's ownership. Those protests would be driven by (lack of) on-pitch performance, not a protest against UAE foreign/domestic policies, although I'm sure City fans could exploit that angle to justify the protests. We're all football fans on this forum (irrespective of club loyalty), and most of us are self-interested hypocrites.
 

andyox

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I don't get why City fans are attacking journalists ? Why do they think ADUG bought them ? Because they always liked them ? It's obvious they are using city for political favour and it's undeniable that the human rights atrocities have occurred and continue to occur.

It seems to offend them when City are associated with those atrocities, but surely we can all accept the very nature of the purchase was to enable a more favourable light to be shed.
I think some of it is just the standard reflexivity/bias of football fans. We read something negative about the club we support and we don't like it, we read something positive about the club we support and we like it. So for a football example, we'll like a report that suggests Sane is staying, but we won't like a report that suggests Sane is off to Bayern. On this issue specifically, as I've said in this thread, I would argue that some of the reporters are being criticised based on perceived motivation. McGeehan has stated his motivation, which I respect, even if I don't agree with some of his conclusions. I don't think the tit for tat on twitter is healthy though, neither side is "winning." While we squabble/points score on twitter, the important issues (e.g. Yemeni civil war) are unresolved. It's pyrrhic.

I'm sure most City fans, myself included, would prefer if ADUG didn't own the club... precisely because we don't like the foreign/domestic policies of the UAE and we don't like those policies being associated with City. Obviously we didn't have a choice in ADUG taking over, but we do have a choice in continuing to support the club under ADUG's ownership. I've chosen to continue supporting the club, but I would respect any football fan that decides to walk away on that basis. We all have to live with our conscience.

"The very nature of the purchase was to enable a more favourable light to be shed." That's the bizarre thing for me. The fact that ADUG owns City actually contributes to more light being shed on UAE foreign/domestic policies, not less. Just like Qatar being awarded the World Cup has led to much more reporting on migrant labour rights, for example. I can completely understand the soft power/sportswashing perspective, but it really seems to be a massive failure to me on that count.
 

Bastian

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Yes agreed, and I think this is the key point. I don't want to (and will not) whitewash the UAE and its foreign and domestic policies, but I do want to continue to support the club I've always loved.

The way I read your post is that you think that just by continuing to support City, I have become an apologist for the UAE and a useful pawn for them? If so, then I guess that's where we disagree. I'm not an advocate for, or defender of, any policies or values that the UAE represents, and that's how I personally (can't speak for other City fans) make my peace with continuing to support City under ADUG's ownership. I'm not willing to walk away, and I think your logic dictates that I should.

I think this is an interesting point by the way "whilst the interests of City fans in wanting their team to do well overlap with the interests of the UAE using your club..." I'm sure if ADUG was running the team badly, then City fans would be more motivated to protest ADUG's ownership. Those protests would be driven by (lack of) on-pitch performance, not a protest against UAE foreign/domestic policies, although I'm sure City fans could exploit that angle to justify the protests. We're all football fans on this forum (irrespective of club loyalty), and most of us are self-interested hypocrites.
I think this here illustrates this perfectly:

This I don't get at all......Imagine the media frenzy and how City fans would've reacted if David Gill had been involved in the supply of arms to the Middle East ! We were portrayed as the most arrogant and disrespectful club, manager, players etc when we bowed to political pressure and withdrew from the FA Cup :lol:

Imagine a top club official sending emails completely disregarding the rules of the sport and also writing an email on the supply of arms to the Middle East.

But yeah don't involve Manchester City in that, honest,local, hard done by, Manchester City. We don't want to be associated with anything our owners and officials do, outside of football......but we're more than happy to bask in their wealth and enjoy the success it brings.
I don't think anyone is telling City fans to not support their club. But you started here by attacking the journalist and saying these two things are completely separate, when in reality they're not. I agree with you that the journos focus on that Twitter account is misguided, at least with regards to the overall credibility of the piece, but you simply cannot deny that the people who own City are also absolute fecking thugs in the geopolitical arena.

Again, I'm sure many United supporters would defend the Saudis were they to takeover the club, criticise journalists and pointing to others (whataboutery). Indeed, many have been hoping for such a takeover. Then there are people who would be completely turned off the club in that scenario and others who would still follow the team, try to suppress thoughts about the ownership and compartmentalise these things purely in order to enjoy the game without feeling completely dirty.

Interesting article. Not sure how it'll scan on here but it's worth a read.

https://medium.com/@allyfogg66/manchester-city-morality-and-me-a9d2126a67ee
I really struggle to understand how this person is a "radical leftist". If I was a posh ivory tower conservative who had never really been in the real world, I might use the phrase "I've even written in the Guardian" if I was trying to convince people I was a radical lefty. The post makes some valid points, they can try to affect positive change (they won't, but they can try) but I'd have less problems with the whole thing if this person wasn't stressing again and again that they are working in the domain of human rights and radically left. Because you can't square that with "I'd want them to use every loophole they could find" or "Sure, we spent massively, but only in the beginning, because we needed to". That being said, I do not expect leading figures in major non-profits to be truly political, but more diplomatic to the point of impotence.

Agree with this!:
You argue as if Man City is this independent football club, when the whole point of this criticism is that it's not, that it's controlled by the people who also run Abu Dhabi. So it's not City doing anything, it's Simon Pearce&co allegedly breaking FFP just as it is Simon Pearce &co allegedly breaking arms embargoes and fecking up Yemen, so in that sense it's actually pretty hard not to compare strategies.
You acting as a living billboard for a distasteful regime and you don't like it when people remind you of that fact. And please don't remind me of Ally "I've been a human rights activist for 35 years, but I need a journalist to ask me very very nicely and hold my hand before I can attempt to do something about a regime using me and my club as camouflage" :(:(:( or "I am unashamedly of the radical left, no surprisingly I don't care about corruption and am all for employing the best set of accountants money can buy to to find the trickiest loophole imaginable. In truth I'd be disappointed if they were not making every possible effort to do so.

In Hannover fans have been protesting at matches for years, to the point where it became detrimental to the team, because the club's boss - a local business man who deals in hearing aids - was becoming authoritative and went against 50+1, yet on the other side I read about poor powerless City fans and how they can do nothing but cheer on the club and attack journalists.
 

ivaldo

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You can certainly argue that the club has been co-opted. Where I (and other fans) would push back on is that we as fans have been co-opted. To make it clear:
1) I was a City fan before ADUG and I'll be a City fan after ADUG
2) I wasn't a UAE apologist before ADUG and I won't be a UAE apologist after ADUG

So yes, please go ahead and criticise the UAE and its policies, I'll be doing the same. But you don't need to blame City fans or hold City fans responsible for those policies merely because we continue to support the club we've always supported.
What’s interesting is the comparison, or that lack thereof, of how Newcastle fans treat their owner and how City fans treat theirs. Both owners are exploiting their clubs, one for financial gain and the other for something far more sinister, and yet their ownership is received in totally different ways. You will try to separate yourself and your club from your owner, while Newcastle fans strive to draw direct comparisons to the impact of Mike Ashley and their current predicament. Something tells me your tolerance levels of Sheikh Mansour wouldn’t be nearly as high if the relative success of your club and Newcastle’s were reversed.
 
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NinjaFletch

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Yes agreed, and I think this is the key point. I don't want to (and will not) whitewash the UAE and its foreign and domestic policies, but I do want to continue to support the club I've always loved.

The way I read your post is that you think that just by continuing to support City, I have become an apologist for the UAE and a useful pawn for them? If so, then I guess that's where we disagree. I'm not an advocate for, or defender of, any policies or values that the UAE represents, and that's how I personally (can't speak for other City fans) make my peace with continuing to support City under ADUG's ownership. I'm not willing to walk away, and I think your logic dictates that I should.

I think this is an interesting point by the way "whilst the interests of City fans in wanting their team to do well overlap with the interests of the UAE using your club..." I'm sure if ADUG was running the team badly, then City fans would be more motivated to protest ADUG's ownership. Those protests would be driven by (lack of) on-pitch performance, not a protest against UAE foreign/domestic policies, although I'm sure City fans could exploit that angle to justify the protests. We're all football fans on this forum (irrespective of club loyalty), and most of us are self-interested hypocrites.
Not really. I think that actively defending the owners makes you that pawn, as you did in your response to this article. How you realise your support for the club whilst your owners are your owners is a decision that each fan has to individually come to. You might be unhappy and demand change, you might be unhappy but stay quiet when the good times are rolling, you might do mental gymnastics to try and convince yourself that it's not that bad, and all of them are completely compatible with your underlying support for your club.

From a personal point of view I'd be very unhappy if United were being used in this way and it would seriously impact my enjoyment of the sport and the club whilst it was going on. I think I would probably cope with it by disengaging with the sport, but I do accept that my hardline position on it is a reflection of the fact that I have been lucky enough to see my club win things without having to tolerate a repressive regime owning you.
 

Denis79

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If you read the thread about the potential Saudi takeover, there’s a disgusting amount of our own fan base who are happy to say they don’t care about what our owners do if it means we can buy an Mbappe every year.
They don't understand or know what the Saudis have done and are doing, or they are just too young and football is their life. Can't explain it any other way.
 

andyox

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I don't think anyone is telling City fans to not support their club. But you started here by attacking the journalist and saying these two things are completely separate, when in reality they're not. I agree with you that the journos focus on that Twitter account is misguided, at least with regards to the overall credibility of the piece, but you simply cannot deny that the people who own City are also absolute fecking thugs in the geopolitical arena.

Again, I'm sure many United supporters would defend the Saudis were they to takeover the club, criticise journalists and pointing to others (whataboutery). Indeed, many have been hoping for such a takeover. Then there are people who would be completely turned off the club in that scenario and others who would still follow the team, try to suppress thoughts about the ownership and compartmentalise these things purely in order to enjoy the game without feeling completely dirty.
Of course, Sheikh Mansour owns ADUG, and he's Deputy PM of a regime that is doing abhorrent things both within the UAE and in the broader region. I won't deny that and I won't defend it. If McGeehan had written a piece purely about that then I wouldn't have seen any reason to criticise him. He's actually written really good pieces before about migrant worker rights, which is his primary research area. He's not a football journalist though, and as he's said on twitter, his only reason for beginning to add City's name to his articles is to broaden awareness of his journalist colleague who is currently imprisoned in the UAE (City's name helps to add readers). The result is, in my opinion, quite a ham-fisted mess of an article. I do admit, my initial reply was a bit of a two-footer. I had read McGeehan's piece earlier in the day and thought at the time "I bet this will end up on the Caf" and then it did :).

As you say, it's all about compartmentalising, and some fans will be able to do that (in order to continue supporting their club), and some won't. In the end, I've decided that my support of City is not contingent on the nature of the owner/ownership.
 

andyox

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What’s interesting is the comparison, or that lack thereof, of how Newcastle fans treat their owner and how City fans treat theirs. Both owners are exploiting their clubs, one for financial gain and the other for something far more sinister, and yet their ownership is received in totally different ways. You will try to separate yourself and your club from your owner, while Newcastle fans strive to draw direct comparisons to the impact of Mike Ashley and their current predicament. Something tells me your tolerance levels of Sheikh Mansour wouldn’t be nearly as high if the relative success of your club and Newcastle’s were reversed.
Totally agree with you, see extract from my post just above yours:

I think this is an interesting point by the way "whilst the interests of City fans in wanting their team to do well overlap with the interests of the UAE using your club..." I'm sure if ADUG was running the team badly, then City fans would be more motivated to protest ADUG's ownership. Those protests would be driven by (lack of) on-pitch performance, not a protest against UAE foreign/domestic policies, although I'm sure City fans could exploit that angle to justify the protests. We're all football fans on this forum (irrespective of club loyalty), and most of us are self-interested hypocrites.
Football fans are fickle beasts. I don't want to be accused of whataboutery, but to use another example about my club I'll admit to being a fully paid up member of the Forward with Franny movement when Swales was destroying the club. Let's get a club legend in! And then fairly soon afterwards you'd have happily heard me slagging off Franny when it all went tits up and we were time-wasting at the end of the 2-2 game vs Liverpool on the last day of the season when we needed to win to stay up. To your example, I'd be fairly confident that Newcastle fans would've happily accepted the name change to the SportsDirect.com Arena or whatever it was if Ashley had splashed the cash and Messi was banging them in every week for them.

At the end of the day, the way football is run in this country with regards to ownership means that we're all hostages to whoever finds the cash to buy our club. Every buyer will have an agenda, which may or may not align with the fans' desire for a successful team.

P.S. just to add on this, the whole success levels vs. protest thing goes both ways in the coverage of City. See Delaney's match report the day after the Cup Final win. Suddenly state ownership was a mortal threat to the game and as Delaney posted on twitter "the most important topic in football today." That sort of coverage causes an eye roll precisely because Delaney didn't bother mentioning the most important topic in football in his match report the day after we got smashed 4-0 at Goodison for example. In the same way, you'll see plenty more posts on the Caf about the UAE and human rights issues after City have won a trophy or beaten United in a derby than you will at other times. City's ownership doesn't change between games or results. But it suddenly becomes more relevant when fans are on the receiving end of a City win.
 
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andyox

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Not really. I think that actively defending the owners makes you that pawn, as you did in your response to this article. How you realise your support for the club whilst your owners are your owners is a decision that each fan has to individually come to. You might be unhappy and demand change, you might be unhappy but stay quiet when the good times are rolling, you might do mental gymnastics to try and convince yourself that it's not that bad, and all of them are completely compatible with your underlying support for your club.

From a personal point of view I'd be very unhappy if United were being used in this way and it would seriously impact my enjoyment of the sport and the club whilst it was going on. I think I would probably cope with it by disengaging with the sport, but I do accept that my hardline position on it is a reflection of the fact that I have been lucky enough to see my club win things without having to tolerate a repressive regime owning you.
Yep can't disagree with the crux of your post here. As you say, it's a personal decision that each fan has to take. Would I have preferred City to gain success with a United-style "Class of 2008" youth team and owned by a lifelong local City fan? Absolutely. Sadly Franny didn't sell enough bog rolls and Michael Johnson became an estate agent. Modern football and the value of football clubs has also really restricted the type of owner that will have enough cash to buy and sustain a Premier League club.

On the bolded part, I've gone back and re-read my initial response to the article. I don't see anywhere that I've defended the owners. I stated "For what it's worth, I would never deny that as a City fan I'm biased about City. Reflexively we all tend to defend our club, except when it's indefensible. City breaking FFP is indefensible. City breaking rules on the transfer of U18s is indefensible, etc. But I'm a City fan, not a UAE fan. I have no need or interest in defending anything the UAE does." The majority of my first post was a criticism of the quality of McGeehan's article and the agenda of a few associated sports journalists. McGeehan has written really well on migrant worker rights issues in the UAE, for example, but this article was not his finest hour.
 

adexkola

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Using City as a propaganda vehicle has failed by any viewable metric. No one is giving UAE any more props because of their connection to City... Actually it can be said that they would be better off without the negative attention City has brought them.

Either way it's refreshing that this tiresome debate on their legitimacy has its own thread, as the Man City thread from last year was 75% comprised of these financial and ethical discussions
 

Bastian

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Of course, Sheikh Mansour owns ADUG, and he's Deputy PM of a regime that is doing abhorrent things both within the UAE and in the broader region. I won't deny that and I won't defend it. If McGeehan had written a piece purely about that then I wouldn't have seen any reason to criticise him. He's actually written really good pieces before about migrant worker rights, which is his primary research area. He's not a football journalist though, and as he's said on twitter, his only reason for beginning to add City's name to his articles is to broaden awareness of his journalist colleague who is currently imprisoned in the UAE (City's name helps to add readers). The result is, in my opinion, quite a ham-fisted mess of an article. I do admit, my initial reply was a bit of a two-footer. I had read McGeehan's piece earlier in the day and thought at the time "I bet this will end up on the Caf" and then it did :).

As you say, it's all about compartmentalising, and some fans will be able to do that (in order to continue supporting their club), and some won't. In the end, I've decided that my support of City is not contingent on the nature of the owner/ownership.
Fair enough mate. Football is one of the most extreme areas of corporate greed and corruption where I am actively invested, so I do a fair bit of compartmentalising as well. I guess I don't know how I'd deal with it if the Saudis took over the club. I tell myself I'd stop following football altogether, but maybe I'd end up suppressing things further and enter a mastership of disassociation. I'd definitely welcome every bit of criticism of their humanitarian record though and unlike that self-declared radical leftist human rights advocate, I wouldn't welcome their attempts at exploiting every loophole to further their agenda. I'm in favour of a more level playing field and more efficient regulation generally, and if more fairness negatively impacts my club I don't care.
 

andyox

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Fair enough mate. Football is one of the most extreme areas of corporate greed and corruption where I am actively invested, so I do a fair bit of compartmentalising as well. I guess I don't know how I'd deal with it if the Saudis took over the club. I tell myself I'd stop following football altogether, but maybe I'd end up suppressing things further and enter a mastership of disassociation. I'd definitely welcome every bit of criticism of their humanitarian record though and unlike that self-declared radical leftist human rights advocate, I wouldn't welcome their attempts at exploiting every loophole to further their agenda. I'm in favour of a more level playing field and more efficient regulation generally, and if more fairness negatively impacts my club I don't care.
That last sentence is solid gold. Slightly different topic to what we've been discussing but yes City (thanks to ADUG) have managed to plant ourselves in the football elite, and with the money behind us, it's quite hard for us to "fail" (and even without ADUG it's also quite hard for other clubs with similar revenue to City to fail too, let's be honest). It would probably be considered failure for City this season if we finish second in the league. Finishing outside the top 4 would be an utter catastrophe. That's mental for a City fan to say given that being mid-table at Christmas in the old Div Two is still fresh in my mind. It's selfishly great because we've got a great chance of winning trophies, but it's not in any way healthy for the game. We've had loads of threads on this in the past and never really got anywhere in how it could be accomplished but I would absolutely love every club at the beginning of the season to be able to look at their squad and think "you know what, if we perform we've got a chance of doing something this season" or at least "if we can develop X youth player and bring in Y and Z to fill the gaps over the next year or two, we're going to be right up there." But that's not the way it is realistically (for let's say a team that finished mid-table last season) and I guess it never will be unless the bubble bursts somehow or the elite clubs head off to a European Super League. Of course football is not all about winning trophies but it should be focused more seriously on genuine competition. I think my viewpoint is shared by quite a lot of City fans. It sounds nonsensical/bordering on schizophrenic given our position now, but I think it's probably borne out of so many years pre-ADUG where I loved City just as much but genuinely felt no hope that we'd ever be able to compete with the big boys.

Back to the topic at hand, I must admit I don't actually personally know a City fan who has given up supporting City as a moral decision based on ADUG's, or previously Thaksin's, ownership. The only example I can think of in the public eye is perhaps David Conn. You do get the odd fan who says it was more fun when we were shit, but I don't know if I really believe them. It was a decent experience seeing some away grounds I thought I'd never visit when we were in Div 1 and Div 2, but the atmosphere was regularly toxic among City fans. I think it's mostly nostalgia for "proper football" vs. the modern, commercialised version. Colin Shindler is probably an embodiment of that. That was a long-winded tangent, but I suppose what I was trying to say is I would be pretty surprised if a significant number of fans of a club, let's say United, gave up supporting them if a Saudi sovereign wealth fund took over. I would absolutely respect anyone that did walk away (better man than I), but it's easier said than done.
 

Lord SInister

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Who really cares tbh, it is not like we are going to boycott watching City games vs United as a protest.
It isn't like this article will be taken into consideration when actual investigation happens.
It isn't like anyone gives a damn, after they log out internet. Internet outrages are the most hilarious things around the world.