U15s: Generation adidas Cup (30 March - 7 April)

[top1whoisman]

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[top1whoisman]

Saturday 30 March 15:00 | Atlanta vs United
Sunday 31 March 15:30 | LAFC vs United
Monday 1 April 15:30 | United vs St Louis

All times GMT/BST.

 

[Gungerz]

Saturday 30 March 15:00 | Atlanta vs United
Sunday 31 March 14:30 | LAFC vs United
Monday 1 April 14:30 | United vs St Louis

Atlanta game will be shown on MLS Season Pass. Other group games won't be but potential knockout games will.

 

[Gungerz]

Atlanta make it 3-0 with the last kick of the first-half. Another ball in behind, their striker is just quicker than our defenders and he finishes.

 

[Gungerz]

DeJonge-Seiros & O'Brien on at HT.

 

[Gungerz]

DeJonge-Seiros introduction has helped a lot. United having more of the ball and he's had a couple of dangerous moments.

 

[Gungerz]

4-0. Been all United so far in the second half but Atlanta hit on the break.

 

[Gungerz]

FT 4-0. United much better in the second half. Had the majority of the ball, although outside of hitting the bar didn't really create anything.

Jariyah Shah by far United's best player, had a very good second half. Interesting to note that he's, as far as I know, the only U15 in the squad. Everyone else is a club U14 (so late 2009 or early 2010), which explains the physical gap between the sides.

Encouraged by the technical level of United, some very tidy players but just had no answer to Atlanta's pace and incisiveness.

 

[Bertie Wooster]

Thanks for all the updates.

Disappointing result, but good to hear there were some positive signs as well.

 

[Demaw]

The 12's were amazing to watch as well, especially in the final against Real.

 

[top1whoisman]

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[top1whoisman]

We drew 2-2 with LAFC and beat them 5-3 on penalties to gain an extra point.

 

[top1whoisman]

Shah scored our second in added time. Gazik Ibragimov converted the decisive penalty.

 

[Gungerz]

Assuming those DOBs are right that means Gabriel is an U13, which I didn't know.

 

[top1whoisman]

St. Louis beat Atlanta 3-2 so the table looks like this after two games.

St. Louis 4
Atlanta 3
LAFC 3
United 2

Meaning we need a win in normal time vs St. Louis in our last game to go through to the Championship bracket.

Kickoff tomorrow 15:30 BST if I haven’t messed up the time difference.

 

[khoazany]

Assuming those DOBs are right that means Gabriel is an U13, which I didn't know.

Yeah JJ usually play 2 years up.

 

[top1whoisman]

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[top1whoisman]

The shootout from the LAFC game. Osuchukwu looks a decent size for his age.

 

[Gungerz]

Interestingly he didn’t start the game, so he may well have been brought on specifically for pens.

 

[AltiUn]

Yeah JJ usually play 2 years up.

He's presumably pretty decent then?

 

[top1whoisman]

United lost 1-0 to St. Louis in the final group game.

This means we’ll play some ”consolation/showcase” games later this week.

 

[Bertie Wooster]

United lost 1-0 to St. Louis in the final group game.

This means we’ll play some ”consolation/showcase” games later this week.

I know results don't matter at youth levels, but doesn't seem a great effort to have played 3 and won none (apart from pen shoot out) against 3 American teams. Have the US sides had older teams out (or, have we sent a youthful squad?)

 

[top1whoisman]

I know results don't matter at youth levels, but doesn't seem a great effort to have played 3 and won none (apart from pen shoot out) against 3 American teams. Have the US sides had older teams out (or, have we sent a youthful squad?)

I think in general the North American sides are physically advanced compared to their European counterparts. The jet lag probably doesn’t help either. But this tournament is dominated by North American academies more or less every year.

And yes, we have quite a few underaged players in our squad.

Actually when you think about it, with the easy access to Central and South American markets in terms of players, it’s a bit surprising the US are not doing better on the international stage. That could change in the future.

 

[Bertie Wooster]

I think in general the North American sides are physically advanced compared to their European counterparts. The jet lag probably doesn’t help either. But this tournament is dominated by North American academies more or less every year.

And yes, we have quite a few underaged players in our squad.

Actually when you think about it, with the easy access to Central and South American markets in terms of players, it’s a bit surprising the US are not doing better on the international stage. That could change in the future.

Thanks.
I was thinking it was likely to be more physical advantage rather than being technically better. Which isn't an issue at all as plenty of time for players to catch up / technical quality to tell as they age.

 

[top1whoisman]

Thanks.
I was thinking it was likely to be more physical advantage rather than being technically better. Which isn't an issue at all as plenty of time for players to catch up / technical quality to tell as they age.

It’d be nice to do better in these tournaments but as Nick Cox has often said, it’s very much about always finding the next challenge for each individual player. If it’s ”too easy” in your age group, sure you win a lot etc., but do you actually keep on developing..?

By having a rough time against bigger/better opponents, the staff and players learn about what they need to work on to overcome those challenges.

 

[Prodigal7]

I’m unsure on Cox. We need to do better than Rashford and Mctominay. Mainoo is very promising but we should be on par with Barca and Real in terms of the number and quality of players we produce. It has to be said that players like Foden, Palmer, Frimpong etc are head and shoulders ahead of what we’ve been producing recently and that’s mainly Wilcox’s doing. Winning tournaments has to be an important part of developing a winning mentality, something lacking in our current graduates. It looks like that’s already started to change when you see the results in younger age groups recently, this one aside. In short, we’re moving in the right direction IMO, and Wilcox will progress us even further, perhaps taking on some responsibility from Cox in terms of player development.

Theres no room for sentiment, go for best in class in all areas and move us to where we need to be, because we’re not there yet.

 

[top1whoisman]

I’m unsure on Cox. We need to do better than Rashford and Mctominay. Mainoo is very promising but we should be on par with Barca and Real in terms of the number and quality of players we produce. It has to be said that players like Foden, Palmer, Frimpong etc are head and shoulders ahead of what we’ve been producing recently and that’s mainly Wilcox’s doing. Winning tournaments has to be an important part of developing a winning mentality, something lacking in our current graduates. It looks like that’s already started to change when you see the results in younger age groups recently, this one aside. In short, we’re moving in the right direction IMO, and Wilcox will progress us even further, perhaps taking on some responsibility from Cox in terms of player development.

Theres no room for sentiment, go for best in class in all areas and move us to where we need to be, because we’re not there yet.

I get what you’re saying.

It’s just that in my humble opinion you don’t create winners by stockpiling 20 of the best talents per age group and winning everything at academy level.

Percentage-wise max. 1-2 of those will ever go on to have a career at a club that wins trophies. The other 18 and even those two will not be equipped to handle setbacks because all they know is winning from 12 year olds going forward.

You need to get the biggest possible range of experiences and emotions to be able to manage the inevitable difficulties that come with 99,9% of footballers’ careers.

I’m not saying winning is not important. I just honestly feel that what smart academies do in terms of giving young players constant challenges throughout their journies, makes the players more versatile and better equipped to face adversity. Which is more important. And those challenges might make then even more hungry for success. They’d be more resilient than the ones who have only experienced winning and good times.

Looking at the current Real Madrid squad, it’s not like their great academy that focuses on winning has given them winning players. If I’m not mistaken Carvajal and Nacho are the only academy products in their squad.

Barca obviously have a ton more. Spanish teams have quite an advantage when they can sign top South American talents to their academies and then call them academy graduates. The English academies must be more creative, especially with brexit they simply have to focus on English talents.

I’d say we lost our way and identity, not only regarding the first team but with our academy too, when Fergie retired.

I think hiring Cox has actually somewhat put us back on the map after half a decade of chaos and confusion.

We’ve recruited some top youth scouts from our rivals and mainly done very well regarding U18s head coaches (McKenna, Ryan, Lawrence).

What the Head of Academy does not give immediate results. Hopefully we get a few more first team players from our current crop to go along with Mainoo & Garnacho.

On top of producing more players to the big European leagues than anyone else in the country. Something we’ve consistently done, even under Cox.

 

[top1whoisman]

United face Minnesota United, Portland Timbers and CF Montréal in their Consolation Group.

Thu 3 April | 14:00 BST | Montréal vs United
Fri 5 April | 14:00 BST | Minnesota vs United
Sat 6 April | 16:30 BST | United vs Portland

 

[mat85]

I’m unsure on Cox. We need to do better than Rashford and Mctominay. Mainoo is very promising but we should be on par with Barca and Real in terms of the number and quality of players we produce. It has to be said that players like Foden, Palmer, Frimpong etc are head and shoulders ahead of what we’ve been producing recently and that’s mainly Wilcox’s doing. Winning tournaments has to be an important part of developing a winning mentality, something lacking in our current graduates. It looks like that’s already started to change when you see the results in younger age groups recently, this one aside. In short, we’re moving in the right direction IMO, and Wilcox will progress us even further, perhaps taking on some responsibility from Cox in terms of player development.

Theres no room for sentiment, go for best in class in all areas and move us to where we need to be, because we’re not there yet.

I understand that rashford is currently infuriating to watch and I'm at the point it would probably make sense to sell him in the summer, but it is a bit mad to be dissatisfied with his talent surely?

 

[top1whoisman]

I understand that rashford is currently infuriating to watch and I'm at the point it would probably make sense to sell him in the summer, but it is a bit mad to be dissatisfied with his talent surely?

Agreed. And to be precise Cox had nothing to do with Rashford.

 

[Prodigal7]

I understand that rashford is currently infuriating to watch and I'm at the point it would probably make sense to sell him in the summer, but it is a bit mad to be dissatisfied with his talent surely?

He’s clearly got a lot of natural talent but he’s unable to apply it for a number of reasons. All of which can be linked to coaching.

 

[top1whoisman]

He’s clearly got a lot of natural talent but he’s unable to apply it for a number of reasons. All of which can be linked to coaching.

While that may be partly true it has nothing to do with our academy coaching, Cox or the Generation adidas Cup. And he has been able to apply it quite a lot too in the past.

 

[Prodigal7]

While that may be partly true it has nothing to do with our academy coaching, Cox or the Generation adidas Cup. And he has been able to apply it quite a lo too in the past.

It might not have anything to do with a Cox or the Adidas cup but academy coaching definitely is part of it.

Rashfords decision making and mentality especially are poor and the academy he spent his years developing at has to take a lot of responsibility for that. I remember seeing him in the academy and the way the coaches used him. He was practically given license to carry the ball as far and as often as he liked. I remember staff talking about players “expressing themselves”. Sounds like an excuse for a setup that didn’t know it’s arse from its elbows. He does the same thing now. Roy Keane and many others have mentioned that Rashford plays like a kid and that is down to poor coaching IMO, I can’t see another reason for it. Thankfully that type of instruction he received doesn't happen in our system anymore looking at our teams over the last couple of years.

As for him being able to apply his talent a lot in the past I’d suggest the opposite is true. Outside of his one good goal scoring season he has been poor or at least below par throughout. I thought the England performance against Brazil summed it up very well. The England team had their heads up all the time orchestrating intricate team moves between them whilst Rashford got the ball, got his head down, ran at 3 defenders hoping to get a shot off, lost the ball and then starting screaming at his team mates.

I’m guessing many will disagree but that’s my honest take on it.

 

[top1whoisman]

It might not have anything to do with a Cox or the Adidas cup but academy coaching definitely is part of it.

Rashfords decision making and mentality especially are poor and the academy he spent his years developing at has to take a lot of responsibility for that. I remember seeing him in the academy and the way the coaches used him. He was practically given license to carry the ball as far and as often as he liked. I remember staff talking about players “expressing themselves”. Sounds like an excuse for a setup that didn’t know it’s arse from its elbows. He does the same thing now. Roy Keane and many others have mentioned that Rashford plays like a kid and that is down to poor coaching IMO, I can’t see another reason for it. Thankfully that type of instruction he received doesn't happen in our system anymore looking at our teams over the last couple of years.

As for him being able to apply his talent a lot in the past I’d suggest the opposite is true. Outside of his one good goal scoring season he has been poor or at least below par throughout. I thought the England performance against Belgium was summed it up very well. The England team had their heads up all the time orchestrating intricate team moves between them whilst Rashford got the ball, got his head down, ran at 3 defenders hoping to get a shot off, lost the ball and then starting screaming at his team mates.

I’m guessing many will disagree but that’s my honest take on it.

But if the academy is responsible for Rashford’s mentality, I can equally point out the numerous academy graduates with strong mentality and make the counter argument about how good our academy coaching is?

The mental side of the coaching is a part of it, yes, but there are plenty of footballers who struggle with that side of the game regardless of the coaching they’ve received, not because of it.

About the advice about ”expressing themselves”, I’m sure I’ve heard it from past greats such as Eric Harrison himself. It is a big part of coaching young players. 100% at Barca and Real academies too, which you mentioned as ideal models.

 

[Prodigal7]

But if the academy is responsible for Rashford’s mentality, I can equally point out the numerous academy graduates with strong mentality and make the counter argument about how good our academy coaching is?

The mental side of the coaching is a part of it, yes, but there are plenty of footballers who struggle with that side of the game regardless of the coaching they’ve received, not because of it.

I’m looking at the players who remain at the club. Fair point if you say Mctominay has a strong mentality because I agree. But I’d argue he’s been poorly coached too, seemingly unable to contribute to team patterns and just needs to be the guy that gets on the end of something. Not great attributes for a midfielder. His mentality is better likely because he was tiny in the youth teams and barely played. He developed later and had to work very hard for what he got.

the individualistic, tactically oblivious coaching that Rashford got is the reason why in my opinion he is incapable of playing in a team that wants to compete at the highest level.its sad to say but I really believe that if Rashford came through under Wilcox’s system in a team where he wasn’t treated as the main man who can pretty much do whatever he wants, he would be a much better player and team member.

edit: adding to your later point. I have massive respect for past greats like Harrison, but those methods are so out of date it would be a disaster to follow that methodology now. In fact not moving with the times is the key reason our academy needed a overhaul.

Real and Barca especially are not advocates of massive self expression in player development. You saw the MIC cup I recall and must have noticed how well drilled those teams were in team patterns of play and building from the back. We were too though which was great to see

 

[top1whoisman]

I’m looking at the players who remain at the club. Fair point if you say Mctominay has a strong mentality because I agree. But I’d argue he’s been poorly coached too, seemingly unable to contribute to team patterns and just needs to be the guy that gets on the end of something. Not great attributes for a midfielder. His mentality is better likely because he was tiny in the youth teams and barely played. He developed later and had to work very hard for what he got.

the individualistic, tactically oblivious coaching that Rashford got is the reason why in my opinion he is incapable of playing in a team that wants to compete at the highest level.its sad to say but I really believe that if Rashford came through under Wilcox’s system in a team where he wasn’t treated as the main man who can pretty much do whatever he wants, he would be a much better player and team member.

Guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree then.

 

[Borninthe80ts]

The issue of mentality is complex and for me isn’t only on the academy and I think is being intertwined into decision making.

Coaches should be helping players improve decisions on the pitch if possible but I prefer players also to use imagination on the pitch. It’s what’s missing most from todays football for me.

Rashfords’ issues for me are more about abuse from the nation and his own fans after the penalty miss especially and when he is in poor form. He mentioned it himself too.

 

[top1whoisman]

United lost 1-3 to CF Montréal.

 

[top1whoisman]

0-0 vs Minnesota, lost 4-2 on penalties.

 

[top1whoisman]

The New York Red Bulls U15s are apparently taking a stand against racist comments made towards multiple of their U17s players when facing non-US teams in the previous rounds.

Basically meaning HNK Hajduk from Croatia. Hate to say it but I’m not suprised. Not sure if it was the players, staff or some fans in the stands.

Therefore the NYRB U15s have not shown up to their QF against Toulouse.

Edit: Apparently at least one of their players was racially abused by an opposing player on the pitch.