United Hour podcast - As Bad As It Gets (City defeat)

[Vault Dweller]

At this point, what else can be said...join Nik (@Rood), Imran (@Annihilate Now!), Ashwin (@AR87) and Jamie (@Vault Dweller) as they try and dissect the shocking defeat and performance v City. Where oh where on Earth do we and Ole go from here?

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Was that worse than the Liverpool performance? How much fault do you attribute to the players in addition to the manager? Who would you like to see in charge?

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[2 man midfield]

I did wonder if you were waiting to see if Ole got sacked before your new episode was rendered immediately out of date

 

[Vault Dweller]

I did wonder if you were waiting to see if Ole got sacked before your new episode was rendered immediately out of date

 

[buckooo1978]

Welcome to the real world Nik - I knew that by (in true Ole style) giving you a few more pods/more time you would (well almost) see the light

I did bust out laughing at the suggestion we came back into it in the first half before their second goal - what did we have.... 4 touches in their box the entire game? more shots on target on our own goal than at Ederson? Such a meek performance from players who don't know what they are supposed to be doing, have no confidence, no plan and no help from the sidelines.

One of Ole's great strengths was bringing back our fight and these players ran through brick walls for him, coming back from behind so many times. It was sad to see the low at the weekend - the one thing Ole could do effectively in these games was organise a team to counter attack. He had messed up big time crazily trying to go toe -to-toe with Liverpool - He tried to be more pragmatic against City but we weren't able to counter attack with any effect. We missed players like Dan James who worked his ass off, was our best presser - in both the games against Liverpool and City he didn't pick players for the occasion.

I've no faith in the leadership at the club but hoping there is a plan for succession from next season - I think Ole needs to be relieved in the short term. The performance levels, tactics, in game management have been nothing short of horrendous this year. I can't see any downside of bringing an interim manager in - it doesn't get any worse than that last game. Having an experienced manager even in the short term who provides tactics and some semblance of a plan would be better than what we have. I'm also fearful with our shite board that if he was to slip into 4th place we might give him another year.....now that is a scary thought!

good listen guys - cathartic as usual

 

[Amir]

"Lot's of people are stupid" - love you, @AR87.

Sticking another centerhalf when you have trouble defensively is a very simplistic solution, but you need to think about more than that if you move a 3-5-2/5-3-2 formation. And even if it was enough against a very poor Spurs side, it didn't make it right for City, who are a totally different side.

Problem is, Solskjaer's football thinking is very simplistic. So he sticks another centerhalf to solve it, and if it works once he thinks that this is an actual "one-size-fits-all" solution.

 

[Widow]

Another great listen but I have to disagree with Nick regarding Sancho.

To say that a young kid coming to England with a new team, new team mates and massive expectations has had enough game time to show us what he's all about is just wrong. It's not like he has walked into a team that is settled and playing well.

He needs to find his feet and role within the side, he'll only do that with constant game time. A little hard in a 532 though!

It would be good to get a woman on the pod cast team in these modern times too.

Keep up the good work!

 

[Tropical Bob]

I don't believe we're this bad, it must be a ruse. All four of you on this cast are saying what the players should have done, and I don't get why these elite football players don't already know what to do. We can't be this bad.

Maybe Ole got messed up with an international betting syndicate and is now under their control. Maybe the Glazers are paying the players to throw games to get revenge for the protests last season. Or (and this has been my long stabnding theory) Netflix are filming a secret documentary and any moment now Utd are going to come out all guns blazing... Ridiculous, I know, but nothing else makes any better sense.

I dream of a day when the Americans have feck'ed off back to Florida and we get a UK based, football-loving owner. Please lord, let this happen soon.

 

[That'sHernandez]

Another great listen but I have to disagree with Nick regarding Sancho.

To say that a young kid coming to England with a new team, new team mates and massive expectations has had enough game time to show us what he's all about is just wrong. It's not like he has walked into a team that is settled and playing well.

He needs to find his feet and role within the side, he'll only do that with constant game time. A little hard in a 532 though!

It would be good to get a woman on the pod cast team in these modern times too.

Keep up the good work!

@Rood has been scouting Twitter to see if we can get a female on, though I don't know if he has concluded his search yet. We would love to have a woman on the show, and given we say we talk about all things Man Utd, we should probably cover the women's teams' results and performances from time to time too!

 

[OmarUnited4ever]

Great listen, and agree with @Vault Dweller on Ole's issues of in-game management and not changing things early when needed, I felt the pain & despair in your words

 

[Rood]

"Lot's of people are stupid" - love you, @AR87.

Sticking another centerhalf when you have trouble defensively is a very simplistic solution, but you need to think about more than that if you move a 3-5-2/5-3-2 formation. And even if it was enough against a very poor Spurs side, it didn't make it right for City, who are a totally different side.

Problem is, Solskjaer's football thinking is very simplistic. So he sticks another centerhalf to solve it, and if it works once he thinks that this is an actual "one-size-fits-all" solution.

I believe @AR87 was talking specifically about @Alock1 there who couldn't understand why we didn't play 3CBs Vs Liverpool!

Personally I think 3 CBs was the right choice for City and Ole has beaten Pep with exactly that set up before, the problem is that 2 of them aren't fully fit plus low on confidence

 

[Rood]

Another great listen but I have to disagree with Nick regarding Sancho.

To say that a young kid coming to England with a new team, new team mates and massive expectations has had enough game time to show us what he's all about is just wrong. It's not like he has walked into a team that is settled and playing well.

He needs to find his feet and role within the side, he'll only do that with constant game time. A little hard in a 532 though!

It would be good to get a woman on the pod cast team in these modern times too.

Keep up the good work!

Well my point was that Sancho has actually had quite a lot of game time and not shown that much whereas the likes of Lingard or VdB have a lot more cause for complaint

To me it's hypocrisy to complain that some players keep playing even when out of form and then say Sancho should play more - we have a huge amount of attacking talent at the moment, for me you have to deliver immediately or wait for another chance

By no means am I writing off Sancho either - it's early days and I expect him to come good

 

[Rood]

Welcome to the real world Nik - I knew that by (in true Ole style) giving you a few more pods/more time you would (well almost) see the light

I did bust out laughing at the suggestion we came back into it in the first half before their second goal - what did we have.... 4 touches in their box the entire game? more shots on target on our own goal than at Ederson? Such a meek performance from players who don't know what they are supposed to be doing, have no confidence, no plan and no help from the sidelines.

One of Ole's great strengths was bringing back our fight and these players ran through brick walls for him, coming back from behind so many times. It was sad to see the low at the weekend - the one thing Ole could do effectively in these games was organise a team to counter attack. He had messed up big time crazily trying to go toe -to-toe with Liverpool - He tried to be more pragmatic against City but we weren't able to counter attack with any effect. We missed players like Dan James who worked his ass off, was our best presser - in both the games against Liverpool and City he didn't pick players for the occasion.

I've no faith in the leadership at the club but hoping there is a plan for succession from next season - I think Ole needs to be relieved in the short term. The performance levels, tactics, in game management have been nothing short of horrendous this year. I can't see any downside of bringing an interim manager in - it doesn't get any worse than that last game. Having an experienced manager even in the short term who provides tactics and some semblance of a plan would be better than what we have. I'm also fearful with our shite board that if he was to slip into 4th place we might give him another year.....now that is a scary thought!

good listen guys - cathartic as usual

If Ole was to stay now and get 4th then that would suggest he did turn things around and got us playing much better so I'd be happy at that at least

But as I always say, I expect constant progress and, unless there was a cup win to go with it, 4th place wouldn't be enough for me to back Ole to go to into another season

 

[Vault Dweller]

Great listen, and agree with @Vault Dweller on Ole's issues of in-game management and not changing things early when needed, I felt the pain & despair in your words

Many thanks it sure is something that really frustrates me when watching us!

 

[Amir]

Personally I think 3 CBs was the right choice for City and Ole has beaten Pep with exactly that set up before, the problem is that 2 of them aren't fully fit plus low on confidence

That's exactly the same simpislic thinking: We've done it before, so let's do the same thing again - not taking into account that the other team knows how you're going to play and will adjust if they have to.

The fact that two of our defenders are out of form was hardly the biggest issue or the biggest reason for that joke of a performance.

 

[croadyman]

If Ole was to stay now and get 4th then that would suggest he did turn things around and got us playing much better so I'd be happy at that at least

But as I always say, I expect constant progress and, unless there was a cup win to go with it, 4th place wouldn't be enough for me to back Ole to go to into another season

I admire you for still being able to feel any passion for this club under Ole because mine totally died after being destroyed by the scousers and then utterly schooled for 90 minutes by City as well. I cannot wait until he's gone and will then be able to care about our results again which will be a nice feeling. If you are looking for females what about Beth from The United Stand or Mary from She Devils Utd who both seem to understand the game well.

 

[Amir]

If Ole was to stay now and get 4th then that would suggest he did turn things around and got us playing much better so I'd be happy at that at least

But as I always say, I expect constant progress and, unless there was a cup win to go with it, 4th place wouldn't be enough for me to back Ole to go to into another season

Getting 4th would indicate that he got us playing better than we have been recently, but that - and even winning a cup (which I assume would be the FA Cup) - will not be any sort of indication that he got us playing the sort of football you need to challenge for top honours, even in future seasons.

So you're still setting him a pretty low bar. And one that would put us in the exact same spot in a year's time if United were to keep him.

It's the same shallowness that has kept in him the job so far. I don't care if we finish 3rd or 4th. If we win the FA Cup or not. I want to be convinced by the football.

 

[Ayoba]

Excellent podcast guys, I've only just come across this but I'll be a regular listener from now.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Excellent podcast guys, I've only just come across this but I'll be a regular listener from now.

Many thanks, glad to hear that!

 

[Jeppers7]

Well my point was that Sancho has actually had quite a lot of game time and not shown that much whereas the likes of Lingard or VdB have a lot more cause for complaint

To me it's hypocrisy to complain that some players keep playing even when out of form and then say Sancho should play more - we have a huge amount of attacking talent at the moment, for me you have to deliver immediately or wait for another chance

By no means am I writing off Sancho either - it's early days and I expect him to come good

Lingard has been here for years, I like him but he’s on his way out. VDB has exactly the same cause for complaint as Sancho. You don’t bring players in without a plan and position for them, unless you’re signing a squad player like David May or Lee Grant etc.

Sancho and VDB have not been allowed to settle into the team and find their rhythm. Lingard has been a good player for us in my opinion but we gave up on him last season and his contract expires this season. He shouldn’t even be here.

 

[Rood]

That's exactly the same simpislic thinking: We've done it before, so let's do the same thing again - not taking into account that the other team knows how you're going to play and will adjust if they have to.

The fact that two of our defenders are out of form was hardly the biggest issue or the biggest reason for that joke of a performance.

City didn't adjust anything - they always play like that, it was our performance that was much worse than before

Given the players available what was your solution for this match?

 

[Rood]

Lingard has been here for years, I like him but he’s on his way out. VDB has exactly the same cause for complaint as Sancho. You don’t bring players in without a plan and position for them, unless you’re signing a squad player like David May or Lee Grant etc.

Sancho and VDB have not been allowed to settle into the team and find their rhythm. Lingard has been a good player for us in my opinion but we gave up on him last season and his contract expires this season. He shouldn’t even be here.

Well I think VdB was only bought as a squad option, he's not that expensive - he will play now that Pogba is injured

And on Lingard the point is just about the here and now. Ole blocked him for leaving in the summer and he's played well everytime he appeared (bar the YB feck up) this season and could have played more to give players like Bruno a rest

 

[Jeppers7]

Well I think VdB was only bought as a squad option, he's not that expensive - he will play now that Pogba is injured

And on Lingard the point is just about the here and now. Ole blocked him for leaving in the summer and he's played well everytime he appeared (bar the YB feck up) this season and could have played more to give players like Bruno a rest

I don’t disagree with most of that, I’ve no idea why Ole blocked him leaving though. Just seems like he has no forward plan. VDB May have been signed as a squad option but it’s ridiculous how little he has been used. Sancho wasnt bought as a squad option, he would have expected there to be a plan for him in terms of integration into the team, which just simply hasn’t happened. You can’t just expect him to perform instantly. His first game was a cameo v Leeds when we’d stopped playing. Since that point he hasn’t started more than two games in a row.
The manager hasn’t a clue what to do with him so he’s on the bench, same with Donny who I wouldn’t be surprised if he doesn’t play more or start more games even with Pogba injured. McFred and Bruno must always play. Hopefully Sancho gets more time but that could easily go to Rashford.

 

[buckooo1978]

If Ole was to stay now and get 4th then that would suggest he did turn things around and got us playing much better so I'd be happy at that at least

But as I always say, I expect constant progress and, unless there was a cup win to go with it, 4th place wouldn't be enough for me to back Ole to go to into another season

4th place and a cup win, however fanciful, wouldn't represent progress for United under Ole.

Progress this year simply had to be measured in a genuine league challenge which we are light years away from under Ole.

To challenge the top sides you need a manager who is capable of playing well with consistency. We have been consistently shit under Ole. Even at his best we've been patchy. Good runs (of results not performances I stress) have been followed by poor results. We've never played well or dominated games with the consistency needed by a top side. The comebacks are great fun but top teams dont do them with the frequency we did last year and that was a good time for us.

We could have won the Europa League last year quite easily. As we now know that wouldn't have resulted in us attacking more fluently, creating more chances, balancing and managing a squad better or managing to dominate teams like Young Boys, Everton or Aston Villa.

even in a hypothetical season where we turn things around under Ole, finish top 4 and win an FA Cup we need to judge the team on the manner of the performances. I'd like to see us play like a team who have a clue what they are doing and a team who look like they been coached. A team that dominates and controls games. An effective attacking side who create good chances and are defensively solid. A manager who is tactically aware, manages the squad well and makes good in game decisions. A team that is able to match Liverpool/City or Chelsea. All of which Ole is emphatically not doing.

 

[AR87]

I don’t disagree with most of that, I’ve no idea why Ole blocked him leaving though. Just seems like he has no forward plan. VDB May have been signed as a squad option but it’s ridiculous how little he has been used. Sancho wasnt bought as a squad option, he would have expected there to be a plan for him in terms of integration into the team, which just simply hasn’t happened. You can’t just expect him to perform instantly. His first game was a cameo v Leeds when we’d stopped playing. Since that point he hasn’t started more than two games in a row.

The manager hasn’t a clue what to do with him so he’s on the bench, same with Donny who I wouldn’t be surprised if he doesn’t play more or start more games even with Pogba injured. McFred and Bruno must always play. Hopefully Sancho gets more time but that could easily go to Rashford.

Sancho was bought to be a starting XI player and fix our issues in build up and chance creation in the attacking third, specifically on the right hand side. I have some understanding for why he played on the left earlier in the season, but it's a joke now that he's not even getting starts.

Even if VdB was purchased to be a squad option, well, then you need to actually use him as a squad option. He has barely started in the PL since we bought him and hasn't gotten chances even off the bench this season. It's absurd and if nothing else represents a pointless expenditure if Ole has no plan or vision to make him a part of the squad.

 

[Amir]

City didn't adjust anything - they always play like that, it was our performance that was much worse than before

City did actually do one thing very differently - they didn't give away a silly penalty in the first minute. That was the biggest factor in that game in March as it galvanised us, gave us something to hold on to and forced City to chase - which they are not great at.

We didn't even start with three centerhalves back then, so it's not like we tried on Saturday to recreate that win. It wasn't some special Anti-City plan. It's just that with our defensive trouble and the five conceded against Liverpool, Solskjaer's only solution was so throw another CB in. It seemed to work against Spurs so he stuck with it after that. He didn't use it on Saturday specifically because it was against City.

Given the players available what was your solution for this match?

I'd have thought about adding a third midfielder, just to try and disrupt City. Thing is, not only is Pogba unavailable, so is Van de Beek. I mean, he is available but it's like he doesn't exist, and you wouldn't throw him straight in against City after playing so little - that would silly. So I'd say Solskjaer kind of created his own problem in not having many midfield options. Matic's there but I wouldn't start him AND McFred.

More importantly, though, since our team isn't the best drilled, I'd help them by sticking to something similar to what they know best. And 5-3-2 isn't it.

Honestly, though, I wouldn't have a rabbit to pull out of the hat for that game. You can't take a team that isn't well coached even on its best days, and doesn't have a clear style, and play it when it's out of form against the best drilled team in the world - and expect results. You can't magically change things in the two-three days of training you've have after Atalanta, after weeks, months of even years of not coaching it enough. That's the big issue. Not the preperation or tactics for a single match.

 

[Rood]

City did actually do one thing very differently - they didn't give away a silly penalty in the first minute. That was the biggest factor in that game in March as it galvanised us, gave us something to hold on to and forced City to chase - which they are not great at.

We didn't even start with three centerhalves back then, so it's not like we tried on Saturday to recreate that win. It wasn't some special Anti-City plan. It's just that with our defensive trouble and the five conceded against Liverpool, Solskjaer's only solution was so throw another CB in. It seemed to work against Spurs so he stuck with it after that. He didn't use it on Saturday specifically because it was against City.



I'd have thought about adding a third midfielder, just to try and disrupt City. Thing is, not only is Pogba unavailable, so is Van de Beek. I mean, he is available but it's like he doesn't exist, and you wouldn't throw him straight in against City after playing so little - that would silly. So I'd say Solskjaer kind of created his own problem in not having many midfield options. Matic's there but I wouldn't start him AND McFred.

More importantly, though, since our team isn't the best drilled, I'd help them by sticking to something similar to what they know best. And 5-3-2 isn't it.

Honestly, though, I wouldn't have a rabbit to pull out of the hat for that game. You can't take a team that isn't well coached even on its best days, and doesn't have a clear style, and play it when it's out of form against the best drilled team in the world - and expect results. You can't magically change things in the two-three days of training you've have after Atalanta, after weeks, months of even years of not coaching it enough. That's the big issue. Not the preperation or tactics for a single match.

Well actually if you go back to March 2020 (this was the last match before COVID lockdown) we beat City 2-0 in this fixture with 3 CBs (Lindelof Maguire Shaw) so we have beaten them recently with this exact set up

And thats the thing though, some fans say the formation and line up was wrong but when I ask for an alternative you realise really there wasnt many other options due to injuries etc

 

[Alock1]

I believe @AR87 was talking specifically about @Alock1 there who couldn't understand why we didn't play 3CBs Vs Liverpool!

Personally I think 3 CBs was the right choice for City and Ole has beaten Pep with exactly that set up before, the problem is that 2 of them aren't fully fit plus low on confidence

"Lot's of people are stupid" - love you, @AR87.

Sticking another centerhalf when you have trouble defensively is a very simplistic solution, but you need to think about more than that if you move a 3-5-2/5-3-2 formation. And even if it was enough against a very poor Spurs side, it didn't make it right for City, who are a totally different side.

Problem is, Solskjaer's football thinking is very simplistic. So he sticks another centerhalf to solve it, and if it works once he thinks that this is an actual "one-size-fits-all" solution.

If you listen back, I said I couldn't believe he didn't play a back 3 and that we would probably still lose - but 2-0 is better than 5-0 from a pure protectionism pov.

Not that I felt a back 3 would magically work or makes us lots better, just that I expected that reaction from Ole earlier and that I felt it would probably result in less goals conceded - but ultimately still a loss.

Was spot on really.

 

[Rood]

4th place and a cup win, however fanciful, wouldn't represent progress for United under Ole.

Progress this year simply had to be measured in a genuine league challenge which we are light years away from under Ole.

To challenge the top sides you need a manager who is capable of playing well with consistency. We have been consistently shit under Ole. Even at his best we've been patchy. Good runs (of results not performances I stress) have been followed by poor results. We've never played well or dominated games with the consistency needed by a top side. The comebacks are great fun but top teams dont do them with the frequency we did last year and that was a good time for us.

We could have won the Europa League last year quite easily. As we now know that wouldn't have resulted in us attacking more fluently, creating more chances, balancing and managing a squad better or managing to dominate teams like Young Boys, Everton or Aston Villa.

even in a hypothetical season where we turn things around under Ole, finish top 4 and win an FA Cup we need to judge the team on the manner of the performances. I'd like to see us play like a team who have a clue what they are doing and a team who look like they been coached. A team that dominates and controls games. An effective attacking side who create good chances and are defensively solid. A manager who is tactically aware, manages the squad well and makes good in game decisions. A team that is able to match Liverpool/City or Chelsea. All of which Ole is emphatically not doing.

This where the criticism goes way overboard - you dont finish top 4 twice and reach a Europa Final without any tactics or coaching. This season has been poor but Ole exceeded expectations last season.

The team is struggling at the moment but Ole has done a great job to build a solid squad and repair the club from the disarray Jose left us in - perhaps we need some new ideas to realise the full potential of this squad but fans should show some respect for how far we have come.

 

[Amir]

Well actually if you go back to March 2020 (this was the last match before COVID lockdown) we beat City 2-0 in this fixture with 3 CBs (Lindelof Maguire Shaw) so we have beaten them recently with this exact set up

Aye, but that City was below their standards that season.

And thats the thing though, some fans say the formation and line up was wrong but when I ask for an alternative you realise really there wasnt many other options due to injuries etc

I was never overly bothered by the formation or starting lineup. The performance was the result of something bigger.

 

[Amir]

This where the criticism goes way overboard - you dont finish top 4 twice and reach a Europa Final without any tactics or coaching. This season has been poor but Ole exceeded expectations last season.

No one is saying the the team has NO tactics or NO coaching (I think). Just that their not nearly good enough. Of course work is done, of course they are doing something on the training ground, of course they are going into matches with an idea of what they want to do. But it's just not good. We can see the performances.

The team is struggling at the moment but Ole has done a great job to build a solid squad and repair the club from the disarray Jose left us in - perhaps we need some new ideas to realise the full potential of this squad but fans should show some respect for how far we have come.

I'll happily show him that respect if he goes and someone else comes in and chooses to build on that work. At the moment, we're quite far from there and he himself is risking the destruction of his own work. If he does that, it means all those years of work and investment have come to nothing. Which won't really earn him any respect...

 

[Rood]

I was never overly bothered by the formation or starting lineup. The performance was the result of something bigger.

Thats exactly the point I was making on the show - it's not about individuals or formation or line up selections, the collective is failing and now clearly low on belief with not many signs it can be turned around now - clearly the players have to take some blame but this is the point where I agree a change of manager could be beneficial

 

[buckooo1978]

This where the criticism goes way overboard - you dont finish top 4 twice and reach a Europa Final without any tactics or coaching. This season has been poor but Ole exceeded expectations last season.

The team is struggling at the moment but Ole has done a great job to build a solid squad and repair the club from the disarray Jose left us in - perhaps we need some new ideas to realise the full potential of this squad but fans should show some respect for how far we have come.

well that are obviously busy working you'd expect but we aren't seeing the results of coaching on the pitch are we?

there have been no improvements this year on the pitch this at all are there? Can you name any?

The team has regressed and we look confused at times. Against Liverpool we were all over the show with some pressing like crazy without any pressing strategy it seemed - does this suggest they worked on it in training? did the player not understand the coaches methods? who knows but it was an unacceptable performance

to me when it comes to tactics and coaching there is a simple way to measure it. Is our team better than the sum of its parts - the answer undeniably is No.

Ole has been blessed with one of the best attacking squads in Europe and we've been less creative than Brentford or West Ham in terms of xg. I know you like these stats and our xPoints would put us in 12th place in the league. Does that suggest we have effective coaching or management?

Most fans I know including myself have respect for Ole and the job that he has done. The squad is in much better shape on paper than the squad he inherited - most fans realise that progress stopped quite a while ago though and we are flogging a dead horse under the current management

I'm not so sure we can give Ole too much credit for the squad considering he's spent a fair bit and we've had mixed results. We overpaid on Maguire and AWB and both look very replaceable in that starting lineup. Maguire has been dire this year but even last year you couldn't place him as a peer to someone like Van Dijk. He's been alright but he's not fit to lace Stam, Rio or Vidic's boots which is what you'd expect for a player coming in on a world record fee. I can't really think of a game where you come away thinking Maguire was great today.

Wan Bissaka I don't know - I just think a manager like Klopp, Tuchel or Pep wouldn't have them near their teams...just not a good technical footballer and being excellent in 1 on 1s isn't enough these days...... Van De Beek has been a disaster and I felt the reception he got at the weekend was maybe a message to the management to give the poor kid a chance. Sancho's exclusion has been ridiculous and some of you highlighted that. Telles best contribution was that it kickstarted Shaw's form last year which has largely deserted him now. He doesn't trust Telles though - he's not likely to drop Shaw is he as he is part of that group who play regardless. Bruno and Varane seem to be his big successes. Varane out injured some would argue as Ole rushed him back too early like he's done with other players. He has got a super squad but half are under-performing and half can't get a game.

He's done a great job of changing that toxic atmosphere under Jose but that was 3 years ago practically - plenty of time to move on from that achievement and actually produce on the pitch which we aren't doing relative to our squad strength quite clearly.

 

[Beans]

Glad to see Nick putting his foot down. If there was a clear choice to replace Ole, I’m certainly behind it.

 

[Amir]

Thats exactly the point I was making on the show - it's not about individuals or formation or line up selections, the collective is failing and now clearly low on belief with not many signs it can be turned around now - clearly the players have to take some blame but this is the point where I agree a change of manager could be beneficial

The collective is falling, and it's falling becaue it's not really a collective. It's a bunch of players. When it's a collective, it can sustain a couple of people being out of form, lacking confidence or just not being as good as other players. When it's a collective, it has basic attirubtes - good football habits, a system, a style - it can fall back onto and not allow the fall to become an absolute collapse like we've recently seen.

But we don't have anything to lean on in bad times. No system, no collective. So when players are out of form and lack confidence, there's nothing to hold the team together.

 

[croadyman]

Glad to see Nick putting his foot down. If there was a clear choice to replace Ole, I’m certainly behind it.

Fair play that @Rood can put up with another 6 months of Ole ball just because our board seemingly point blank refuse to appoint someone interim or show some proper ambition and actually try for someone already in a job at the moment such as Ten Hag/Pochettino/Rodgers.

 

[Jeppers7]

4th place and a cup win, however fanciful, wouldn't represent progress for United under Ole.

Progress this year simply had to be measured in a genuine league challenge which we are light years away from under Ole.

To challenge the top sides you need a manager who is capable of playing well with consistency. We have been consistently shit under Ole. Even at his best we've been patchy. Good runs (of results not performances I stress) have been followed by poor results. We've never played well or dominated games with the consistency needed by a top side. The comebacks are great fun but top teams dont do them with the frequency we did last year and that was a good time for us.

We could have won the Europa League last year quite easily. As we now know that wouldn't have resulted in us attacking more fluently, creating more chances, balancing and managing a squad better or managing to dominate teams like Young Boys, Everton or Aston Villa.

even in a hypothetical season where we turn things around under Ole, finish top 4 and win an FA Cup we need to judge the team on the manner of the performances. I'd like to see us play like a team who have a clue what they are doing and a team who look like they been coached. A team that dominates and controls games. An effective attacking side who create good chances and are defensively solid. A manager who is tactically aware, manages the squad well and makes good in game decisions. A team that is able to match Liverpool/City or Chelsea. All of which Ole is emphatically not doing.

Spot on. Well said

 

[Coops73]

@AR87 you mention the Glazers spending big on the best coaches at Tampa, did that result in them winning the Super Bowl? and why do you think they won’t do it with United?

 

[Amir]

@AR87 you mention the Glazers spending big on the best coaches at Tampa, did that result in them winning the Super Bowl? and why do you think they won’t do it with United?

They won the Super Bowl last season after many years, helped by a major signing (Best QB in the game, Tom Brady).

I actually heard or read somewhere (maybe in the podcast?) that maybe they thought getting Ronaldo would have the same effect as getting Brady. Who knows. It may actually make sense from their view, I guess.

As for top coaches - we did approach some over the years and did appoint two who were supposed to be of the world's best. We probably would have done the same after Mourinho, but Solskjaer came in and had a couple of good months so they probably thought that if it works, don't fix it. After that, looking at the Glazers and the local people in our board and their apparent football knowledge over the years, I'd say things like moving up to 3rd and 2nd, from Europa League semi final to the final, from 66 pts to 74 pts, were good enough to make them think we are on the right track. Some United fans thoght so, so why wouldn't they?

 

[That'sHernandez]

The collective is falling, and it's falling becaue it's not really a collective. It's a bunch of players. When it's a collective, it can sustain a couple of people being out of form, lacking confidence or just not being as good as other players. When it's a collective, it has basic attirubtes - good football habits, a system, a style - it can fall back onto and not allow the fall to become an absolute collapse like we've recently seen.

But we don't have anything to lean on in bad times. No system, no collective. So when players are out of form and lack confidence, there's nothing to hold the team together.

What a load of crap. You're conflating a collective with fallback tactics when something isn't right. The latter is fair criticism, the former is not. If Ole had done only one thing right prior to this season, it was creating a culture where the players played for each other and dug deep in adversity. To say otherwise is pure revisionism to suit a contemporary narrative.

@croadyman I'd sooner have Ole at the club for the next 20 years than Rodgers manager for two months. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, and Rodgers is absolute kack.

 

[Amir]

What a load of crap. You're conflating a collective with fallback tactics when something isn't right. The latter is fair criticism, the former is not. If Ole had done only one thing right prior to this season, it was creating a culture where the players played for each other and dug deep in adversity. To say otherwise is pure revisionism to suit a contemporary narrative.

Nope. In human terms we have a collective - A good bunch of people fighting and all that. And that's a good start. But a football teams requires more than that and in football terms we have less of a collective and more a bunch of good players.